I'm going to rant about the Tonkor nerf for a minute

[(PSN)Santar0s]

I have been giving the latest weapon rebalance some thought and as a player of near 3 years the more I think about the more it irks me.

I feel the community desrves a forma refund / compensation. Before anyone one loses their minds DE did a forma refund way back when warframe abilities were treated like mod cards and you could sacrifice abilities to equip more mods. They changed how the game was played and realized that the players would be upset. So the Tonkor was designed as a no self damage launcher and that's how the community built and played the weapon. We did not break it. We didn't do anything sneaky or dirty. DE released the top tier in launchers and many jumped on it investing time and forma to maximize it. I have seven forma in my tonkor and a nice riven. How many forma overall has the community put into that weapon? How much plat has the community put into rivens for that gun? And you nerfed it. You killed it. And your reason was bullet jumping negated the no self damage aspect of the Tonkor. How many people use the Penta or the Zarr? How about the angstrum or the kulstar? Not many, right? Do you want to know why? Self damage on some weapons but not others is ridiculous. It selectively singles out weapons  makes them a great risk when friendly fire and self damage are not a thing in 99% of the game. Especially in a game that has no clipping with teammates and friendly abilities that you can't avoid i.e. switch teleport, rip line, and bounce that can change your position and make a self damaging weapon more dangerous to the user. So you broke my gun. I would like a forma refund option for rebalance weapons. Maybe have it be for 30 days after the changes are made. You sacrifice the weapon to the void and you get back your forma or at least half rounded up. This gives players time to check it out and see how it affects their gameplay and they can keep it or give to a kubrow as a chew toy. You can even make it a quest for an Orokin Deconstructor. Feed it argon and the gun and 24 hours later you get your forma back.

That was the light hearted part. I am totally sincere in what I said but now I want to separate the suggestion from the criticism.

Nerfing weapons needs to stop. Seriously it's getting old as you are well aware even you official YouTube partners are getting your case about it. It's not a small portion of the community either. Maybe you should join the group's on facebook and see what people are saying in an unsanitized environment. The big updates are few and far between. I know it's a ton of work, I do. But as we wait for the next big thing oh there's a rebalance. Your tonkor is useless now. Self damage and projectile based attack with laughable projectile speed. Haha build a new favorite gun and put multiple forma in it. Honestly guys it seems like a stall tactic. It seems like finding a way to fill the gap between updates. It's not content per se but it's something to keep us busy. I hope that's not the case.  I don't think it is.  But my time is valuable to me and when you simply negate that time well I and others are going to be upset.

Also will solar rail conflicts be a thing again?

 

[Hemmo67]

and here we have a person who did not do his research on why tonkor received self damage

[Lanadra]

Because totally, always, without exception, a weapon no longer being unreasonably OP, automatically means it's now utterly useless.

[ShadowStalker]

45 minutes ago, Artorius-Alter said:

Because totally, always, without exception, a weapon no longer being unreasonably OP, automatically means it's now utterly useless.

if no one will use it will technically become "Useless" because people used the tonkor For its high crit and and no Self damage feature now both of this things have been changed it does less crit and 100% self damage yeah yeah it is "useless" at this point <IMO> 

Edited April 9, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[TyrannosauRayz]

Tonkor. The weapon that goes from OP to Useless REAL QUICK.

[(PSN)Santar0s]

11 minutes ago, Artorius-Alter said:

Because totally, always, without exception, a weapon no longer being unreasonably OP, automatically means it's now utterly useless.

I ranted about the tonkor.  Not all weapons. There is a difference in my point and how you are trying to dismiss it. I'm ok with what they are doing to the Simulor it's still useful. I dont like it but it still serves a purpose. 

[13QZXXTTX]

Online Game weapon balance in a nutshell: If the weapon is OP, make it exclusive, if you favor fraction, nerf the entire line of weapon to make it more "challenging" for people with skill.

Don't get me wrong, but video game #FAIL badly since they start assuming how thing should work. 

Does it ruin the fun? Not really. BUT! There is NOTHING FUN about a game where you earn 1% in game currency.We are not refering to Gold Earning, but FPS F2P system.

[SDGDen]

uhm.... they DID refund forma... 1 forma for every nerfed weapon you own. meaning that EVEN IF YOU HADNT FORMA'D THEM you got a forma. and if you did forma them those forma'd spots wouldnt be deleted. PLAYERS LITTERALY GOT A FREE FORMA FOR JUST OWNING THE NERFED WEAPONS!

 

also. while we are on the topic of nerfing. game balance is important. maybe not as much as in a PVP game. but its important to not make weapons that turn all the enemies into mincemeat with low effort. which is what old tonkor did. just spam it down a halway untill everythings dead. same with simulor. just grab mirage and spam it while walking forward. same with telos boltace. just spam shift+m1+w.

 

point is. a game is meant to be played. not to have people join, spam 3 buttons, and then brag about how good they are. ESPECIALLY in a coop game where one person using old telos boltace/old mirage+simulor/tonkor spam basically forces the other players just run after them picking up loot.

 

now i do agree that the nerfing should stop to some degree. mindless nerfing will get the game nowhere. especially if DE listens to every player thats mindlessly shouting "X is OP! pls nerf!"

 

what they SHOULD listen to is constructive feedback on why something is overpowered and bad for the game, and how that could be fixed.

 

if someone examined the tonkor closely, and decided on what exactly should be changed to make it not the overpowered spamable piece of S#&amp;&#036; it was, the nerf couldve been way less severe. 

[ShadowStalker]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Santar0s said:

I ranted about the tonkor.  Not all weapons. There is a difference in my point and how you are trying to dismiss it. I'm ok with what they are doing to the Simulor it's still useful. I dont like it but it still serves a purpose. 

oops wrong quote

 

12 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

uhm.... they DID refund forma... 1 forma for every nerfed weapon you own. meaning that EVEN IF YOU HADNT FORMA'D THEM you got a forma. and if you did forma them those forma'd spots wouldnt be deleted. PLAYERS LITTERALY GOT A FREE FORMA FOR JUST OWNING THE NERFED WEAPONS!

 

also. while we are on the topic of nerfing. game balance is important. maybe not as much as in a PVP game. but its important to not make weapons that turn all the enemies into mincemeat with low effort. which is what old tonkor did. just spam it down a halway untill everythings dead. same with simulor. just grab mirage and spam it while walking forward. same with telos boltace. just spam shift+m1+w.

 

point is. a game is meant to be played. not to have people join, spam 3 buttons, and then brag about how good they are. ESPECIALLY in a coop game where one person using old telos boltace/old mirage+simulor/tonkor spam basically forces the other players just run after them picking up loot.

 

now i do agree that the nerfing should stop to some degree. mindless nerfing will get the game nowhere. especially if DE listens to every player thats mindlessly shouting "X is OP! pls nerf!"

 

what they SHOULD listen to is constructive feedback on why something is overpowered and bad for the game, and how that could be fixed.

 

if someone examined the tonkor closely, and decided on what exactly should be changed to make it not the overpowered spamable piece of S#&amp;&#036; it was, the nerf couldve been way less severe. 

Nevermind Previous Reply i need to sort this out maybe i got the forma but i didnt recieve the MSG

Edited April 9, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[YUNoJump]

Just now, ShadowStalker said:

....GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT... The only people who got forma refunded to them was ONLY if the "NERFED" Weapon was Foramed so YEAH NO one got a FREE FORMA....i owned a telos boltace and i didnt have forma on it so i didnt get any forma while my friends who had got it so yeah PLEASE! research before writing

Well I got a forma for the Telos Boltace, and the Synoid Simulor and I haven't actually forma'd either of them, so I have no idea what happened wrong with your account there.

[ShadowStalker]

7 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Well I got a forma for the Telos Boltace, and the Synoid Simulor and I haven't actually forma'd either of them, so I have no idea what happened wrong with your account there.

NVM

Edited April 9, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 minute ago, ShadowStalker said:

oops wrong quote

 

....GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT... The only people who got forma refunded to them was ONLY if the "NERFED" Weapon was Foramed so YEAH NO one got a FREE FORMA....i owned a telos boltace and i didnt have forma on it so i didnt get any forma while my friends who had got it so yeah PLEASE! research before writing

No, that wasn't the case. I got 3 froma for the 3 nerfed weapons. I OWNED all 3, but I only had forma in Tonkor, the other 2 never got any forma from me. So you would get a forma regardless if you polarized them or not. And sure enough, some people might have not even needed to switch to other weapons, so free forma!

Tonkor was nerfed, but it's still the top of the explosive weapons as they are now, and that says a lot about how it was pre-nerf.

[SDGDen]

4 minutes ago, ShadowStalker said:

oops wrong quote

 

....GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT... The only people who got forma refunded to them was ONLY if the "NERFED" Weapon was Foramed so YEAH NO one got a FREE FORMA....i owned a telos boltace and i didnt have forma on it so i didnt get any forma while my friends who had got it so yeah PLEASE! research before writing

i had none of the weapons forma'd... .and i got 3 forma. one for the boltace, one for the simulor, and one for the tonkor. SO I @(*()&#036; DID MY RESEARCH

[ShadowStalker]

3 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

i had none of the weapons forma'd... .and i got 3 forma. one for the boltace, one for the simulor, and one for the tonkor. SO I @(*()&#036; DID MY RESEARCH

Edit-contacting Support >.> or maybe not idc about 1 forma :(

Edited April 9, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[YUNoJump]

In a way I don't disagree with you on this, I agree that if a weapon is nerfed or even just changed sideways, players deserve to have all of their forma refunded (while removing the forma from the weapon imo but whatever), because they're essentially getting their forma'd gun swapped for something else, nerf or not. 

However, I can't agree with your last paragraph regarding nerfs themselves:

Other than the forma issue nerfing isn't a problem, and we shouldn't really be stopping nerfs/balancing in order to prevent the forma problem either. Nerfs are part of the double-edged sword that is balance, and an armada of detailed discussions on why nerfs are necessary can be found on just about any game forum on the internet (yes, regarding PvE too). What really needs to happen is for balancing to happen more frequently. If people got used to the notion that their OP/underpowered weapon would get changes, then they wouldn't cling to them so tightly when a balance pass did happen, or sell bad weapons immediately and never give them a chance to be interesting. 

As for the people talking about this, DE doesn't just make changes based entirely on player outcry. Heck, even if they did, there were a lot of people calling out IN FAVOUR of the applied changes (yes, also YouTubers) so it doesn't matter. DE has usage statistics and such at their disposal, if they see that a weapon (eg simulor tonkor TBoltace) is being used much more than any other weapon, then they can tell that it's OP, and then figure out what to do with it from there, probably with the help of constructive criticism and feedback on the forums and such. Besides, if you want proof that DE listens to it's community, remember that DE nerfed Nullifiers in the very same update that they made the weapon changes, and the community cried out with praise.

Overall I do agree with full Forma refund though.

[Genesis7000]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Santar0s said:

I ranted about the tonkor.  Not all weapons. There is a difference in my point and how you are trying to dismiss it. I'm ok with what they are doing to the Simulor it's still useful. I dont like it but it still serves a purpose. 

It´s always the same with all weapons and warframes when a nerf comes.

The Tonkor had much Damage with no downsides. 

Forma refund? Yes

but stop balancing? No

[SDGDen]

2 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

snip

thing is though... theres a difference between a likeable weapon that has good stats a la soma prime and a weapon thats able to just low effort through the entire game a la old simulor... so the point about usage statistics isnt entirely true.... but it does serve as a kind of indicator as to what weapons are potentially to strong and what weapons are potentially to weak. especially the latter one. but its not an end all be all

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

thing is though... theres a difference between a likeable weapon that has good stats a la soma prime and a weapon thats able to just low effort through the entire game a la old simulor... so the point about usage statistics isnt entirely true.... but it does serve as a kind of indicator as to what weapons are potentially to strong and what weapons are potentially to weak. especially the latter one. but its not an end all be all

Naturally yeah, they'll look at more than just usage statistics, but that's their special developer angle that a lot of players forget they have. They'd definitely do some deep investigating on the issue.

(Tonkor was probably quite easy though; "people use it because it doesn't do self damage, it doesn't do self damage because of its feature that was made obsolete with parkour 2.0, lets fix that up and balance the thing in a single easy move")

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Before I reply, I request a TL;DR.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

they should refound players every single forma on tonkor and on other nerfed weapons. too bad they wont do it, cause they just dont care. looking forward for the upcoming nerf and renerfworks, i bet 100 euros that they are capable of nerfing oberon when they will rework him, no dobut lol.

[TrickshotMcGee]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)Santar0s said:

Nerfing weapons needs to stop.

Ok, I could nitpick through the whole post and offer up explanations for why things happen the way they do, but I'll focus on this specific part because it seems to be the basis of the rest of the post. 

This is a moronic mentality, and I won't sugar coat that. It's flat-out stupid to ask for DE to stop nerfing things. Not because 'that's what DE does', but because you can't NOT nerf things and expect any semblance of game balance. 

I'll try to explain why as simply as possible:

 

If we leave powerful weapons in place, then people always have access to that kind of power, right? It's always there for everyone to use and can be obtained any time, provided someone meets the (ridiculously easy) requirements for the weapon. 

Now, because those weapons are commonplace, then that means the majority of users have easy access to that kind of power. If such power is easy to obtain, then enemy scaling has to be tuned way up to match that level of power in order to introduce at least artificial difficulty to the game, otherwise it becomes boring for the people who don't JUST want a powertrip out of Warframe, and instead want a good gaming experience where enemies present more of a challenge than a cardboard cutout. 

Eventually, enemies are tuned up to the point where everything one-shots the player and it takes more than that to kill them in return, and that's with the best of the best weapons. ANYTHING less than that has even more trouble. And that's a problem for anyone who dislikes using the disgustingly strong weapons. They're put at a disadvantage because of people that abused the weapon and forced the devs to break the scale of power.

 

To reiterate, when high levels of power are available easily, then enemies have to be far stronger to compensate for that. People who don't use those stupidly strong weapons are at a disadvantage because the enemies were scaled beyond what their weapons can be built to handle, and are then forced to use the meta that the game was balanced around. 

If those top-tier guns are brought down, then the game can be balanced at a more reasonable level so that while those strong guns exist, other things can also reliably kill enemies without resorting to cheesy tactics. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Santar0s said:

We did not break it.

You're right, we didn't break it. We just abused the hell out of it when we got it. 

[ShadowStalker]

Update to YuNoJump  -SupremeDutchGamer and N7-LeonHart i think i did recieve a forma not a message iam sorry for the ignorant relpy

[YUNoJump]

Just now, ShadowStalker said:

Update to YuNoJump  -SupremeDutchGamer and N7-LeonHart i think i did recieve a forma not a message iam sorry for the ignorant relpy

Hey, at least you came out and said it, that makes you better than a whole lot of people.

[ShadowStalker]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

they should refound players every single forma on tonkor and on other nerfed weapons. too bad they wont do it, cause they just dont care. looking forward for the upcoming nerf and renerfworks, i bet 100 euros that they are capable of nerfing oberon when they will rework him, no dobut lol.

"ALL" will be too much since millions of tonkor users and diff amounts of forma invested so id say like an "Average" like 3 or 5 would be fine but still little extra as some people who havent formaed the "nerfed" weapon will get 5 free forma this is the problem

[BBOTAA]

I'll be honest, I like weapons and warframes to be balanced, obviously.And some should be better and have some perks, doing some especific things to make them unique.
This helps the game in many ways.

Altough the balance issues can hurt the game also, when things are rushed to be released,and made obsolete or relevant past their release date.
I don't really care about nerfs or buffs, but the way certain things are refunded.
Because people invest their time,resources,money and trust in something they purchase or aquire in game, just to have a completly different thing past some time.

This makes me doubt and not trust the development of some weapons and warframes when they are released, so I won't invest in it,
Since this happened to me the first time, I said, I won't buy another single weapon or warframe again,

I still bought skins and forma, etc. Because they don't get changed if that happens 1 time, I won't buy them anymore also. Still it bothers me when I got one weapon with 5 or 6 forma and they refund me one, because when the weapon is changed, it isn't the same weapon I invested my time and resources.

This is my opinion on why players get so triggered because nerfs and buffs at least that's what happens to me. Might not be for others.
Conclusion things should be released more carefully and not rushed. I thing it would be better for players and the game.