Low Ceiling Maps

[Nighttide77]

I'll try to keep this short, simple and construct.

Proposal: new maps that have more low ceiling areas and maybe 1 or 2 areas with taller ceilings. 75% of the map would be low ceiling. Low ceiling would be defined as maybe 1.5 times the height of the tallest warframe, or the full height a frame can stand in place and double jump.

Reasonings: 1) we haven't had any new maps in a while. 2) most of the maps are large areas with a few low ceiling areas. 3) such a map would influence how players move, perhaps even bringing back some nostalgic feelings of maps from older arena FPS games like UT and Quake.

How this would change combat: 1) melee would be much more prevalent and effective since there would be fewer ways a player can just bullet jump around to get out of reach. 2) much less maneuvering thus requiring more skilled shooting. 3) the mini map might become more important as low ceiling areas usually require more navigating than open ceiling maps.

Possible issues: 1) requires effort into map generation. 2) players who prefer open ceilings won't be able to easily enact their normal playstyle in 75% of the map and might camp the large ceiling area(s), turning such rooms into meat grinders. A solution for that might be wall or floor hazards.

---

Personally can't see anything wrong with changing things up a bit with the maps. Would be nice to see a little more variety in map layout.

Anyone with constructive input?

[Naftal]

1.5 times of the height of a warframe sounds like the map will suck hard for camera.

Tight spaces also mean that there's more cover which reduces the amount of 'skilled shooting' needed as you can abuse shooting or meleeing through walls (because of camera or because of punch through).

Abilities also make this even more cheesable because our overpowered bullS#&$ hits through walls in huge radius.

Unless they change the core balance of what we can do, having open areas promote much more skilled play than cramped areas ever can.

EDIT: *facepalm it's conclave*. The point still stands. This puts way too much emphasis on abilities and abusing something like knockdowns because to get to the line of sight of the enemy, you have to get to very close range.

I don't understand why reducing mobility options makes people use more 'skilled shooting'. It only reduces it as targets are easier to hit and things that require less targeting become much more effective.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Naftal

[Shadow-hunt3r]

this. is. genius.

I've played the game soon 4000 hours and getting bored in the game is not a new thing, so after reading this, I really would love to see this change

Make gorgon great again.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Make the game a Dungeon crawler?

[LycanPT]

Yeah lets waste all DE's work into parkour, and btw we already have problems with edges on every freaking door and clutter all the way, and also lets completely forget about zephyr that already has lots of issues due to lack of significant high ceiling

Edited April 18, 2017 by LycanPT

[Pythadragon]

1 hour ago, Nighttide77 said:

even bringing back some nostalgic feelings of maps from older arena FPS games like UT and Quake.

When I think UT, I think of the iconic Facing Worlds map.

Spoiler

I never got into Quake, but supposedly The Longest Yard is one of the most influential and popular maps of all time in that series.

Spoiler

Neither maps looks like 75% low ceiling, and all maps that I remember from old UT-UT2004 were mostly open spaces. Not sure where your comment is coming from?

----

I find it hard to imagine a visually interesting map that's majority low ceiling. It just sorta sounds like making an ant colony map/tunnel world/corridor map.

Current maps all have small areas like this to act as choke points that often lead to health orbs/energy orbs. An entire map mostly built like this sounds highly susceptible to a frustrating 'Oh you spawned between 2 players in an 8 player gamemode? Guess you're dead now.'

Edited April 18, 2017 by Pythadragon

[LSG501]

No thanks.... it's bad enough with shoddy clipping and places where you can get stuck as it. 

As to UT and Quake, yeah the big maps were really enjoyed, UT one allowed for snipers from the high vantage points (with reasonable cover) and the Quake one basically allowed you to jump around etc like crazy mad people lol.   Pretty sure there's a conclave 'capture the flag' map that looks similar to the UT one, based on it's selection picture, although I don't play it so can't confirm

[Weidro]

ähm OP have you unlocked/played the kuva fortress ?
its is still really new and there are way more low ceiling rooms than in any other tileset

to be honest i don't think this is a good idea at all because it goes against the whole movement 2.0 concept
in my opinion we need rooms with way more verticality than we have right now
id like to see that all drones fly higher and not just slightly above your head
and id love to see enemies that walk/crawl on the walls and ceiling

the movement system of warframe is what differs this game from other generic space shooters
we are able to bulletjump incredible high and we are able to walk/hop on walls
warframe is played faster compared to other shooters
all this is the reason why warframe is successful and not just another generic shooter
having a low ceiling map design would be counterproductive

apart from all that making melee even more powerful than it already is would remove the need for guns and rifles

[Nighttide77]

Glad this brought about constructive input.

1 hour ago, Naftal said:

meleeing through walls

Abilities also make this even more cheesable because our overpowered bullS#&$ hits through walls in huge radius.

Oh yah, didn't think about hitting through walls with powers and certain melee. That already is a bit of an issue, but a maze of plenty of corridors would heighten that issue, unless DE fixes more powers for the PvP environment.

I think most of your comment was based on thinking about narrow corridors and maze-like maps. I wasn't specifically thinking maps primarily of narrow corridors...good perspective, though.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Make the game a Dungeon crawler?

Think Grineer Galleon minus some of the taller tiles. Or even Corpus Ship tiles. Without all the extra garbage to get stuck on.

55 minutes ago, Pythadragon said:

 

When I think UT, I think of the iconic Facing Worlds map.

  Reveal hidden contents

I never got into Quake, but supposedly The Longest Yard is one of the most influential and popular maps of all time in that series.

  Reveal hidden contents

Neither maps looks like 75% low ceiling, and all maps that I remember from old UT-UT2004 were mostly open spaces. Not sure where your comment is coming from?

----

I find it hard to imagine a visually interesting map that's majority low ceiling. It just sorta sounds like making an ant colony map/tunnel world/corridor map.

Current maps all have small areas like this to act as choke points that often lead to health orbs/energy orbs. An entire map mostly built like this sounds highly susceptible to a frustrating 'Oh you spawned between 2 players in an 8 player gamemode? Guess you're dead now.'

I feel like you're demeaning my experience in UT or something. When I think UT, I remember maps like Phobos and Stalwart. Man, that was a long time ago. There were areas with large rooms, but surrounding the large area was a lot more stuff that lacked verticality.

I pretty much disliked Face, and avoided it when I could. Perhaps that is why you do not recall a similar experience.

As far as imagining a map of 75% low ceiling...I think you might be on the same thought process as Naftal... I wasn't thinking a maze of narrow corridors. I was thinking more of wide areas with low ceiling.

Thinking about this comment...it did make me think of another possible consequence: players feeling a little claustrophobic. Freedom to move vertically would not be as common as it is in other parts of the game...some players might feel at home, while others would migrate to the highest ceiling area as quickly as possible, regardless of the potential trouble.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Nighttide77

[Pythadragon]

Just now, Nighttide77 said:

I feel like you're demeaning my experience in UT or something. When I think UT, I remember maps like Phobos and Stalwart. Man, that was a long time ago. There were areas with large rooms, but surrounding the large area was a lot of stuff that lacked verticality.

Not my intent-I had different experiences and wanted clarification.

PS. Pretty funny that Phobos and Facing Worlds were made by the same dude, yet you have such an opposite reaction 

[Nighttide77]

29 minutes ago, Pythadragon said:

Not my intent-I had different experiences and wanted clarification.

PS. Pretty funny that Phobos and Facing Worlds were made by the same dude, yet you have such an opposite reaction 

Phobos had a large low grav area on top of the arena, and I think a bit of that in a corridor going down the middle. My fondest memories of it are tossing rocket launcher grenades around corners, ripper disks bouncing everywhere (usually not my own cuz ripper wasn't my thing), and launching giant clusters of rockets that I would usually get myself with the splash damage a bit.

Rockets were naturally not very effective in the low grav area up top, unless it was a redeemer.

[Nighttide77]

Just gave me an idea...a multi-rocket Ogris variant... Or maybe we just need a good Angstrum variant. Faster charge, more in the magazine for a larger full blast...in PvE, if you have too much multishot on the Angstrum I think the spread is so wide that at least one or two rockets hits your feet.

[Pun-chee]

As long the utilisable (three dimensional) space is the same size than most of the other maps, why not? I always support more maps and variation!

To lessen the effectiveness of "melee through objects" and LoS ignoring abilities, just make main corridors a lot wider than our current standard corridors and 1.5 stories high. And keep choke points at a minimum.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Sneazle

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

 1) melee would be much more prevalent and effective since there would be fewer ways a player can just bullet jump around to get out of reach.

Love you. On most maps I'm limited to either 2-3 specific places or trying to anticipate the place someone will land on (not easy with most melee weapons). Cephalon Spire and Lua Ruins (or whatever it's called) are nightmarish as the ceiling is so high not even a Smoke Screen-powered high mobility jump can reach it, you can guess how well I fare in those...

[SevenLetterKWord]

8 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

2) much less maneuvering thus requiring more skilled shooting.

What kind of backwards reasoning is this?

If my opponents can't jump to avoid my shots, then yeah, I'm gonna take my Javlok or my Gorgon, and I'm gonna spam it relentlessly down corridors.
Doesn't that just scream "skillful shooting" to you?

If there's less mobility, then aiming requires less skill, not more.
This is pretty obvious. How it escaped you is beyond me.

[Nighttide77]

14 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

What kind of backwards reasoning is this?

If my opponents can't jump to avoid my shots, then yeah, I'm gonna take my Javlok or my Gorgon, and I'm gonna spam it relentlessly down corridors.
Doesn't that just scream "skillful shooting" to you?

If there's less mobility, then aiming requires less skill, not more.
This is pretty obvious. How it escaped you is beyond me.

...you know, you're making it hard to approach this in a positive and constructive way with the blatant insults.

First, people that have done actual shooting or stuff like airsoft and paintball understand the skill involved in being able to shoot faster and more accurately than their opponent. They will also understand the fact that maintaining a dominant location against their target(s) gives a substantial edge in a firefight. Low ceiling rooms (not halls) with ramps and other structural things make winning in those areas more about using your angles and surroundings than just spamming movement.

Second, if you had read the other comments, you would see that my thinking wasn't along the lines of a map full of narrow corridors. Low ceiling areas don't mean narrow halls, too. Even if there were narrow halls, there would obviously be obstructions and doors, making the hallway a meat grinder to mindlessly run down.

I think you misunderstood my train of thought, and needlessly got flared up.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

On 4/18/2017 at 5:03 AM, Nighttide77 said:

I'll try to keep this short, simple and construct.

Proposal: new maps that have more low ceiling areas and maybe 1 or 2 areas with taller ceilings. 75% of the map would be low ceiling. Low ceiling would be defined as maybe 1.5 times the height of the tallest warframe, or the full height a frame can stand in place and double jump.

Reasonings: 1) we haven't had any new maps in a while. 2) most of the maps are large areas with a few low ceiling areas. 3) such a map would influence how players move, perhaps even bringing back some nostalgic feelings of maps from older arena FPS games like UT and Quake.

How this would change combat: 1) melee would be much more prevalent and effective since there would be fewer ways a player can just bullet jump around to get out of reach. 2) much less maneuvering thus requiring more skilled shooting. 3) the mini map might become more important as low ceiling areas usually require more navigating than open ceiling maps.

Possible issues: 1) requires effort into map generation. 2) players who prefer open ceilings won't be able to easily enact their normal playstyle in 75% of the map and might camp the large ceiling area(s), turning such rooms into meat grinders. A solution for that might be wall or floor hazards.

---

Personally can't see anything wrong with changing things up a bit with the maps. Would be nice to see a little more variety in map layout.

Anyone with constructive input?

This type of map would give us explosive users a very big advantage. Lack of ability to maneuver. 

The next broken melee would have a super boost as well. 

Something to consider. 

[Nighttide77]

46 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aeries Vendetta said:

This type of map would give us explosive users a very big advantage. Lack of ability to maneuver. 

The next broken melee would have a super boost as well. 

Something to consider. 

Oh right, explosives would have an advantage...but also could be a disadvantage to the user. Many more cases of suicide.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

32 minutes ago, Nighttide77 said:

Oh right, explosives would have an advantage...but also could be a disadvantage to the user. Many more cases of suicide.

I like a level playing field even for myself. I'm considered the best conclave penta user in console and it would be a massacre for people if we had low ceilings. I've taught 5 or so people how to use it fairly well so it would be a disaster. We generally don't kill ourselves with it due to our proficiency but you are correct the potential goes way up. 

My concern is melee spammers. 

[Nighttide77]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aeries Vendetta said:

My concern is melee spammers. 

Console is a different arena for melee, isn't it? It's supposedly more effective because aiming with a controller is vastly different from mouse. Maybe those of us who want a melee fix in Conclave should get a console, heh.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

1 hour ago, Nighttide77 said:

Console is a different arena for melee, isn't it? It's supposedly more effective because aiming with a controller is vastly different from mouse. Maybe those of us who want a melee fix in Conclave should get a console, heh.

Both set ups have their advantages and disadvantages. 

I feel from my experience the movement aspect of the players is increased and is more fluid with a controller however the accuracy is way greater with a mouse. That's just my experience though. Others may have different experiences. I've been a console gamer with sega genesis and snes to the Xbox systems so I'm probably biased a bit too. 

 

That being said melee is 50% movement 35% combo and the rest weapon selection. If you can move really well and can combo decent you have a big advantage. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta