[DE]Rebecca

A deep dive: The Glaive Prime Buffs.

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Well... Hek, if I'd known about the buff I would have used that darn thing.

But having picked the Orvius over the Glaive Prime for my rare glaive usage (aka Hayden Tenno cosplay) I had no idea without the info post.

So I wonder if we'll see some posts about "OMG DE Stealth Buffed teh Glaive Prime!!1!one!" =p

I mean if someone even has a glimmer of an idea that maybe DE just might have stealth nerfed something they post about it, so fair is fair, right?! 

Alright so making fun of mt fellow losers aside, even though this probably wont bump GP up to being one of my most used weapons, I'm really glad to see this happen.

But, even more so, I am so looking forward to the new "weapon combo system"!

TY! :inlove:
~R~

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4 hours ago, Myscho said:

Time to dust off Broken-War

What's the point of that? Just gonna get it dirty with blood again. Might as well use the dust for a new proc... Allergies!

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3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Excuse my ignorance but when u say "forced impact" and "forced slash" what does that mean? 

yeah as aforementioned - that would be a certain Status Effect that is forced upon dealing Damage. rather than relying on Status Chance, circumventing that and always applying, while also still rolling for Status Chance separately from that.
(though in this case it seems to disable Impact and Slash in the meantime - putting on a Slash Mod to ensure that mathematically you should get two Slash Status on most throws, but only getting one, not that it's a big deal at all though)

there's some other Equipment that functions this way, Embolist and Acrid being some good examples, which have forced Toxin Status. Et Cetera.

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39 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yeah as aforementioned - that would be a certain Status Effect that is forced upon dealing Damage. rather than relying on Status Chance, circumventing that and always applying, while also still rolling for Status Chance separately from that.
(though in this case it seems to disable Impact and Slash in the meantime - putting on a Slash Mod to ensure that mathematically you should get two Slash Status on most throws, but only getting one, not that it's a big deal at all though)

there's some other Equipment that functions this way, Embolist and Acrid being some good examples, which have forced Toxin Status. Et Cetera.

Thank you

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So I was just playing around with the Glaive Prime a bit in the Simulacrum and noticed a few things.

1. The multiplier from the Combo Counter does not affect thrown damage at all.

2. The forced Slash proc damage from the Glaive Prime is also not affected by the combo counter.

Maybe I'm not seeing things clearly. Could someone look into this?

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I have never seen a single glaive user in the past year. 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

So for now you've had the buffs for the Glaive Prime and may not have known it

Well the only buff I wish to see for glaive and well, every melee weapon, especially those with a "heavy attack" or special charged attack (such as caustacyst) is describe by Naftal below...

6 hours ago, Naftal said:

They still need to fix charge attacks.

Remove the extra swing and make melee attack speed affect the charge rate (without creating charge speed mods).

It appears this problem is resolved in the dev build because I saw no extra melee swing when Rebecca attempted the special 'heavy attack' or whatever the official name is for this method of holding down melee attack to do something special.

Until this fix for holding melee to charge a heavy attack without causing an extra melee swing before said heavy attack is executed goes live, any other "buff" to glaive or any melee weapon is essentially useless.  At least for me.

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38 minutes ago, GKDK said:

I have never seen a single glaive user in the past year. 

Probably because-

In fast paced missions the glaive can feel too slow to use (compared to the slaughterfest of other options we have).

In slow paced missions enemies are tough (thus the mission being "slow") so everyone brings something "better."

Besides Machetes, Glaives aren't one of the more popular weapons classes either.

I hope and expect that the new weapon combo system will be a huge buff to them though, simply based on what little we've seen so far.

A couple things that count against glaives are their widgy targeting, to bounce or not to bounce, if they explode which causes self-damage, and if you want to channel-to-explode them you have to equip them.  
OR... you could just, ya know, shoot one of the many many guns we have instead, haha.

For myself, I've used the Orvius on a few not-solo missions, and as I said if they're fast paced it's usually been easier and more reliable to just shoot the enemy.

Or the occasional open map Defense I'd channel-throw it, eventually but inevitably I'd blow myself up and just put it away. =p

The Redeemer has been safer and more reliable, which may be part of why DE just nerfed-fixed it.

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definitely glad that the buffs finally went live ; sadly i have to admit that i never noticed ingame as i have abandoned all honor and forsaken my glaive ever since i got the bullet dance stance and have been traveling down the dark path of the redeemer [this is coming from someone who has spent the better part of the last 3 years using the glaive as my sole weapon, ie no primary/2ndary]

long story short, bullet dance allows the gunblades to be functionally better than the glaive-type melee in virtually all respects =/

and while the buffs to the glaiveP specifically are nice and bring it more in-line with its other prime brethren, they still do little to address the overall problems with the glaives vs the other melee options

what makes both the gunblades and the glaives special? they can both hit enemies further out of tradition melee ranges [orthosP with primed reach aside]

but while the gunblades can blast enemies from afar and swipe enemies in melee in the same combo or a few quick charge shots and some slashes... the glaive weapons can rly only do one thing or the other, up close they can deal a flurry of quick hits and some combos provide some ok radial AoE coverage for swings/swipes that hit more than one enemy ; but once thrown you are effectively helpless until the glaive returns...

the above situation is made worse by the glaives almost requiring 2-3 slots dedicated to some very significant QoL mods to allow them to function at an even bare-minimum lvl, things like whirlwind and quick return and power throw ; since you are helpless while the glaive is in flight, you want it to fly as fast as possible, a slow glaive is just more time you are helplessly alone, quick return reduces the pointless bounces that never hit anything to again get the glaive back into your hand asap, and of course power throw, so that you can have some form of punchthrough to be able to hit anything in a crowd or around obnoxious terrain geometry

the gunblades have none of the above problems and can donate all 8 slots to dmg/spd and thusly can deal significantly more solid dmg output overall 

we all know that power throw allows the glaives to 'auto-explode' on the last bounce before they return, and thusly the power throw/quick return is a popular mod setup becuz it allows the glaive to be a poor man's AoE weapon, but IMHO this has always been a bad design choice and kind of a dead-end, really where do you go from here? and now that it's a infinite ammo rocket launcher, no one wants to buff it becuz it could get out of hand fairly quickly [multipliers and whatnot] 

IMHO the 'auto-explode' feature should be removed and instead the glaives should ONLY explode when detonated manually while the melee is readied and channeled [IMHO the glaives rely too much on the explosion and thusly i think the explosion AoE dmg should be 50% less than it currently is, and the WF should either take no self-harm dmg from it, or at least 50-75% reduced dmg from it, and direct hits from a thrown glaive should deal 2-3x what they currently do, as it is incredibly silly that i deal MORE dmg to a group or individual enemy by hitting the ground in front of them than hitting and punching through them directly]

additionally, all of the glaive QoL mods should become dual-stat mods and give some other benefit besides their base stats : ie {just examples off the top of my head atm}

power throw - punchthough AND crit dmg

whirlwind - flight spd AND melee reach/range/radial AoE effect [ie the functional size of the glaive hitbox in the air for dmg calculations but NOT for collision]

quick return - less bounces AND atk spd

rebound - more bounces AND homing AND dmg multiplier per additional ricochets [everyone knows that rebound is the bastard step-child of the glaive QoL mods, no sane person uses it becuz the longer a glaive bounces, the long you are helpless, the bounces never hit anything, and the more bounces = more chances for the glaive to get stuck somewhere and glitch out ; so my goal here is to have rebound give the bounces far more of a homing/seeking effect to actually ricochet towards/between nearby enemy units and multiply its dmg for each unit hit, hopefully making this a viable mod alternative in the future]

lastly i know this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming, but it would be lovely if we could have the unarmed animations as available melee while a glaive is in flight, just to be able to block/kick/etc would be a tenno-mas miracle

lastly v2 could we PLZ NOT have certainly units 'immune' to punchthrough by the glaive? why can the glaive not punchthrough certain units? why can it punchthrough a shield grineers shield but then does no dmg to the unit behind the shield? whats the deal with the corpus helmets and proxys? i can punch through most grineer and their hardened armor just fine... these kind of inconsistencies and discrepancies have always plagued the glaives, and any combination or mix of attention to the above issues would go a long way towards making these shining creative gems really feel at home in WF, instead of being the shoehorned in and forgotten relics that they are atm

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RIP Cerata, you once were an alternative choice (sure its only 10 base damage but that can equate to hundreds once moded).

 

Also while addressing the dual wielding, can we get an option in the setting to choose the main hand our warframe will use.  As it is they all use right hand as the main hand (for single and combo), so the dual will be melee right and pistol left.  It would be great to be able to chose to actually have the option to use melee left and pistol right, or even just use single handed weapons in the left hand.

If possible it would even be great if this would also change the dagger/sword or weapon/shield ones as well.  Though that would be more just icing on the cake than the dual wielding options.

 

Edited by Loswaith

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As stated somewhere in the forums under general discussion...ash uses the marketing system to pick his targets and activate bladestorm.Well is there a chance that glaives could use this "targeting system" ash's bladestorm uses?Would be really helpfull trying to hit multiple enemies at once,marking them  & maybe it could deal more damage when thrown under that targeting system?This could be really useful in a group of enemies!

Edited by (XB1)MiguelL52501
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12 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

the above situation is made worse by the glaives almost requiring 2-3 slots dedicated to some very significant QoL mods to allow them to function at an even bare-minimum lvl, things like whirlwind and quick return and power throw ; since you are helpless while the glaive is in flight, you want it to fly as fast as possible, a slow glaive is just more time you are helplessly alone, quick return reduces the pointless bounces that never hit anything to again get the glaive back into your hand asap, and of course power throw, so that you can have some form of punchthrough to be able to hit anything in a crowd or around obnoxious terrain geometry

this isn't true:

Power Throw gives Punch-Through which is nice, and automatic Detonation which is nice, and Quick Return makes it easier to use Power Throw...

but Thrown Melee by default uses its bounces to bounce towards Enemies nearby the initial Enemy hit, to hit numbers of Enemies (that aren't in a line but are just in the general vicinity).

Power Throw and Quick Return is a separate Playstyle from default functionality, but both are capable of hitting groups of Enemies per Throw.

 

bouncing lets you hit around Terrain, if you... bounce it around Terrain.

12 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

IMHO the 'auto-explode' feature should be removed and instead the glaives should ONLY explode when detonated manually while the melee is readied and channeled [IMHO the glaives rely too much on the explosion and thusly i think the explosion AoE dmg should be 50% less than it currently is, and the WF should either take no self-harm dmg from it, or at least 50-75% reduced dmg from it, and direct hits from a thrown glaive should deal 2-3x what they currently do, as it is incredibly silly that i deal MORE dmg to a group or individual enemy by hitting the ground in front of them than hitting and punching through them directly]

 

whirlwind - flight spd AND melee reach/range/radial AoE effect [ie the functional size of the glaive hitbox in the air for dmg calculations but NOT for collision]

quick return - less bounces AND atk spd

rebound - more bounces AND homing AND dmg multiplier per additional ricochets

lastly v2 could we PLZ NOT have certainly units 'immune' to punchthrough by the glaive? why can the glaive not punchthrough certain units? why can it punchthrough a shield grineers shield but then does no dmg to the unit behind the shield? whats the deal with the corpus helmets and proxys? i can punch through most grineer and their hardened armor just fine...

couldn't that also be solved by the detonation say... occuring on each impact with an Enemy/Terrain, and a stronger detonation on the last bounce?
(presumably only last one dealing self Damage and the earlier ones being not particularly strong)

 

Whirlwind also increasing the collision size of Thrown Melee would be nice.
you don't need to try and hurt Quick Return.
Rebound strengthening the bounce homing, certainly. i'm not against increased Damage on each bounce.

they aren't immune to the Punch-Through, if you can pierce it you do pierce it, but for Thrown Melee in some situations this means they phase through the Enemy without hitting it.
which would obviously be preferred to be consistent with other Equipment piercing.

11 hours ago, Loswaith said:

RIP Cerata, you once were an alternative choice (sure its only 10 base damage but that can equate to hundreds once moded).

Cerata has Crits and higher Elemental Status, so it is still better in general - though that is perfectly okay. contrasting features to compete against one another.

Edited by taiiat

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But Glaive Prime still sucks...

 

Seriously, I know another theoretical buff is coming for all thrown melee Soon™, but if it does not include an insane damage buff they will still be useless.

I have been a long time Glaive Prime user, since even before Melee 2.0 and the onset of Glaive-Bombing, but even before this Acolyte mod melee meta the damage ALL thrown melee but out was just bad. Sure, they work fine for lower level star chart, but even when you take a stealth Warframe for that 8x multiplier it struggles towards the later end due to a very slow effective fire rate and the inability to even three shot heavy enemies.

And for the love of RNGesus, WHY THROW FROM THE LEFT SIDE. I don't really care if I have to slash before the throw, I get it, the way melee is coded won't allow for going straight into the charge, but throwing with the left hand as opposed to the right is the biggest nerf thrown melee have seen.

 

The Slash proc is honestly just a bad bandaid. It does not matter that it can slash proc because the base damage just isn't enough. And the damage buff is okay, but it is still far below average for traditional melee.

 

Thrown melee are by far the most diverse class of melee weapons, each has their own very unique characteristic and, given that they had the damage to back up those features, would be all viable in their own niche. However, due to their pathetically low thrown damage, it just ain't going to happen.

 

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20 hours ago, taiiat said:

ah good, forced Slash Status and higher Status has been a thematic feature missing from Glaive for quite some time.
not sure how i feel about forced Knockdown but i'll take a look and see when that applies to decide.

 

Edit:

that's definitely not forced Knockdown. that's forced Impact as well as the forced Slash.
but don't fix it - that's actually better. the Stagger is better than Knockdown, as Knockdown would make it harder to hit the Enemy in the future.

plus Knockdown would be superceding the forced Ragdoll Kestrel has.

Implement this as well, maybe a toggled alt mode while dual wielding 

Thoughts?

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while I like the idea of multi wielding I like the idea of a dedicated charge attack button more, cause that is something that helps all melee weapons, where as multi wielding only helps a few categories.

 

that being said there is a way for us to have our cake and eat it too here

bind charge attacks to reload, and bind multi wielding to alt fire as its an alternative way of using the melee weapon

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14 hours ago, DrBorris said:

But Glaive Prime still sucks...

The Slash proc is honestly just a bad bandaid. It does not matter that it can slash proc because the base damage just isn't enough. And the damage buff is okay, but it is still far below average for traditional melee.

 

Thrown melee are by far the most diverse class of melee weapons, each has their own very unique characteristic and, given that they had the damage to back up those features, would be all viable in their own niche. However, due to their pathetically low thrown damage, it just ain't going to happen.

it's almost there generic Killing power wise.
the only thing i could think of in addition would be all Thrown Melee receiving Crit Chance for the Throws - Cerata probably having the highest but all of them having relevant Crit Chances. Glaive Prime in particular will benefit from that due to forced Slash.

forced Slash isn't really a 'bandaid' for this type of Weapon, it... matches thematically.
 

close up is excellent now:
gfycat.com/VainSimplisticKid

(forums being awful as usual and breaking with me putting in normal links so you'll have to deal with what i need to do to get it to work for the time being)

tried a few different Loadout styles, the same one i used for close up which went badly, adjusting Elementals to be more appropriate for the situation which went better, and fiddling with Elementals and other Mods further as well as trying to get better at always hitting Weakpoints as well as detonating right after hitting the Enemy in order to apply more Status Effects, which went better still.

http://i.imgur.com/teKRUIw.png
http://i.imgur.com/DlMDaVQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/gFUBPTI.png

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Implement this as well, maybe a toggled alt mode while dual wielding 
Thoughts?

Thrown Melee already has a bounce homing, and that would supercede it despite that homing being functional.
Mod(s) to strengthen that homing would not be unwelcome.

(and as ever turning the Bug where your Thrown Melee will orbit you for like 30-60sec into an actual Mod would be excellent, protection from Melee Enemies as well as repeated flying hits)

Edited by taiiat
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@[DE]Rebecca

do you remember this advert?

 D47T6oV.jpg 
This feature (PH suggestion: Gun+blade; gun and blade mode) would make this particular piece of advertisement a truth, and would remind us that we should examine EVERYTHING in detail, for even in the smallest things (like that Hunhow Sentinel mask) may hide massive implications.

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I find thrown melee and gunblades unusable on console as you can't aim and throw/fire them at the same time on a controller (same thumb for aiming is the one you have to hold to throw/fire it)

Could they be made autoaim or throw/fire be moved to the right trigger?

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On 4/20/2017 at 10:44 PM, CY13ERPUNK said:

definitely glad that the buffs finally went live ; sadly i have to admit that i never noticed ingame as i have abandoned all honor and forsaken my glaive ever since i got the bullet dance stance and have been traveling down the dark path of the redeemer [this is coming from someone who has spent the better part of the last 3 years using the glaive as my sole weapon, ie no primary/2ndary]

long story short, bullet dance allows the gunblades to be functionally better than the glaive-type melee in virtually all respects =/

and while the buffs to the glaiveP specifically are nice and bring it more in-line with its other prime brethren, they still do little to address the overall problems with the glaives vs the other melee options

what makes both the gunblades and the glaives special? they can both hit enemies further out of tradition melee ranges [orthosP with primed reach aside]

but while the gunblades can blast enemies from afar and swipe enemies in melee in the same combo or a few quick charge shots and some slashes... the glaive weapons can rly only do one thing or the other, up close they can deal a flurry of quick hits and some combos provide some ok radial AoE coverage for swings/swipes that hit more than one enemy ; but once thrown you are effectively helpless until the glaive returns...

the above situation is made worse by the glaives almost requiring 2-3 slots dedicated to some very significant QoL mods to allow them to function at an even bare-minimum lvl, things like whirlwind and quick return and power throw ; since you are helpless while the glaive is in flight, you want it to fly as fast as possible, a slow glaive is just more time you are helplessly alone, quick return reduces the pointless bounces that never hit anything to again get the glaive back into your hand asap, and of course power throw, so that you can have some form of punchthrough to be able to hit anything in a crowd or around obnoxious terrain geometry

the gunblades have none of the above problems and can donate all 8 slots to dmg/spd and thusly can deal significantly more solid dmg output overall 

we all know that power throw allows the glaives to 'auto-explode' on the last bounce before they return, and thusly the power throw/quick return is a popular mod setup becuz it allows the glaive to be a poor man's AoE weapon, but IMHO this has always been a bad design choice and kind of a dead-end, really where do you go from here? and now that it's a infinite ammo rocket launcher, no one wants to buff it becuz it could get out of hand fairly quickly [multipliers and whatnot] 

IMHO the 'auto-explode' feature should be removed and instead the glaives should ONLY explode when detonated manually while the melee is readied and channeled [IMHO the glaives rely too much on the explosion and thusly i think the explosion AoE dmg should be 50% less than it currently is, and the WF should either take no self-harm dmg from it, or at least 50-75% reduced dmg from it, and direct hits from a thrown glaive should deal 2-3x what they currently do, as it is incredibly silly that i deal MORE dmg to a group or individual enemy by hitting the ground in front of them than hitting and punching through them directly]

additionally, all of the glaive QoL mods should become dual-stat mods and give some other benefit besides their base stats : ie {just examples off the top of my head atm}

power throw - punchthough AND crit dmg

whirlwind - flight spd AND melee reach/range/radial AoE effect [ie the functional size of the glaive hitbox in the air for dmg calculations but NOT for collision]

quick return - less bounces AND atk spd

rebound - more bounces AND homing AND dmg multiplier per additional ricochets [everyone knows that rebound is the bastard step-child of the glaive QoL mods, no sane person uses it becuz the longer a glaive bounces, the long you are helpless, the bounces never hit anything, and the more bounces = more chances for the glaive to get stuck somewhere and glitch out ; so my goal here is to have rebound give the bounces far more of a homing/seeking effect to actually ricochet towards/between nearby enemy units and multiply its dmg for each unit hit, hopefully making this a viable mod alternative in the future]

lastly i know this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming, but it would be lovely if we could have the unarmed animations as available melee while a glaive is in flight, just to be able to block/kick/etc would be a tenno-mas miracle

lastly v2 could we PLZ NOT have certainly units 'immune' to punchthrough by the glaive? why can the glaive not punchthrough certain units? why can it punchthrough a shield grineers shield but then does no dmg to the unit behind the shield? whats the deal with the corpus helmets and proxys? i can punch through most grineer and their hardened armor just fine... these kind of inconsistencies and discrepancies have always plagued the glaives, and any combination or mix of attention to the above issues would go a long way towards making these shining creative gems really feel at home in WF, instead of being the shoehorned in and forgotten relics that they are atm

^THIS

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On 4/20/2017 at 2:44 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

T'was the week before Christmas, and the Tenno surely knew, that an Update was coming... and a buff for a weapon they threw!?

Join me as I walk through the buff that never was for the Glaive Prime.

In the last major Update of 2016, Update 19.5, the notes included these details:

  • Buffed base damage from 35 to 45.
  • Increased Proc Chance from 10% to 20%.
  • Added forced knockdown and bleed Status Chance.

They were quickly redacted, and for months Tenno were left wondering 'where are they'!?

In the first major Update of 2017, Update 20, the notes did not include these details:

  • Buffed base damage from 35 to 45.
  • Increased Proc Chance from 10% to 20%.
  • Added forced knockdown and bleed Status Chance.

But they should have: these buffs have been live since Update 20: Octavia's Anthem and they are currently live on all platforms!

Maybe you've been loyal enough to your Glaive Prime to know that - maybe you're wondering why they weren't included.

To dive into the history of this seemingly complicated situation, we must first look at Devstream #90:
 



For months we've been secretly working away on Multi-wielding (this may have a cooler marketing name closer to release, but that's what I'm calling it for now) which we showed off last week in the above Devstream. The work initially started with the Glaive + a single Secondary. In Update 19.5, the Glaive Buffs did not go live because we were saving them for the release of this multi-wielding. In Update 20, the Glaive Buffs did go live because we successfully compartmentalized the longer-than-expected work being done that was cannibalizing all things "Glaive" changes which pushed out the original change without us noticing. The original change was made outside the content window we were monitoring (Post-Glast Gambit up until the minute of release).  

So for now you've had the buffs for the Glaive Prime and may not have known it, and next you'll have the new wielding type which will include another significant review of eligible weapon types!


 

Cool, awesome to see the buff. But can we look at Dual Daggers now? My Fang Prime needs some love.

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On 4/20/2017 at 2:58 PM, taiiat said:

ah good, forced Slash Status and higher Status has been a thematic feature missing from Glaive for quite some time.
not sure how i feel about forced Knockdown but i'll take a look and see when that applies to decide.

 

Edit:

that's definitely not forced Knockdown. that's forced Impact as well as the forced Slash.
but don't fix it - that's actually better. the Stagger is better than Knockdown, as Knockdown would make it harder to hit the Enemy in the future.

plus Knockdown would be superceding the forced Ragdoll Kestrel has.

after much more deliberation...
so, Glaive Prime has it close, but there's a global improvement that Thrown Melee would exceptionally benefit from.

all Thrown Melee should have high Crit Chance on the Throw - which therefore allows for exceptional reward for precision, which will help in the usability vs higher Level Enemies department.
presumably Cerata will have the highest Throw Crit Chance as the Crit option, and that's fine. they just all need to have a relevant Crit Chance.

 

so with that in mind, what seems appropriate:

  • Glaive: 35%
    • Glaive Prime: 45%
  • Kestrel: 25%
  • Halikar: 25%
  • Cerata: 60%

these numbers sound incredibly high for Melee Weapons, but it's worth noting that in regards to the Throws - True Steel is the only way to increase that Crit Chance, they are completely unaffected by Hit Counter bonuses, and this is the equivalent to Charge Attacks from other Melee Weapons.

with a solid Crit Chance on Throw, Glaive Prime would be at a perfect place.
the others would follow suit to a much better place, with varying results appropriate to their themes.

if their Crit Damage is a concern, feel free to increase them all [but Cerata] to 1.75x, to leave Cerata with a Crit Damage advantage. alternatively i suppose, the Crit Damage of all Thrown Melee could be increased 0.25-0.5x from current.

Edited by taiiat

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