Oberon Revisited: Prime Time Surprise and Next Steps!

[dan.io.wal]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Warning: This may come across as a little harsh, but that's to expect when you are hoping for a good and helpful rework from professional developers...

So, Renewal. Well, that's a nice tiny little step in the right direction, but what about Renewal's weird inverse duration which interferes with its bleedout extension and augment?

Or that Hallowed Ground is a very weak defensive ability, with neither good enough DR for allies nor good enough CC for enemies (although Radiation procs might help)?

The extreme radiation-proc overlap?

The overuse of forced synergies?

The passive being changed from situational into a pidgeonholing one (which you haven't even mentioned btw)?

Are you guys really content with THAT?

^This. Since he's finally getting reworked, he needs to get reworked. Synergies aren't everything. 

[(XBOX)CarpeNoctem365]

3 minutes ago, danthedapper said:

^This. Since he's finally getting reworked, he needs to get reworked. Synergies aren't everything. 

Hear hear we need visual reworks too, plant effects and all that, he's named after the fairy king, why don't his abilities reflect that at all? 

[LogaMC1995]

1 hour ago, UvBenServed said:

Since we already get an armor buff while standing on hallowed ground, I'd prefer something a bit more unique to Oberon's kit for this synergy. Such as energy regen or increased travel speed/distance for the renewal wave.

Other than that, everything sounds pretty good to me. Looking forward to whenever this ends up coming out.

I think you interpret it wrong. The synergy allows ally to get the armor buff without standing on Hallowed Ground after touching the heal wave.

Edited April 25, 2017 by LogaMC1995

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Warning: This may come across as a little harsh, but that's to expect when you are hoping for a good and helpful rework from professional developers...

So, Renewal. Well, that's a nice tiny little step in the right direction, but what about Renewal's weird inverse duration which interferes with its bleedout extension and augment?

Or that Hallowed Ground is a very weak defensive ability, with neither good enough DR for allies nor good enough CC for enemies (although Radiation procs might help)?

The extreme radiation-proc overlap?

The overuse of forced synergies?

The passive being changed from situational into a pidgeonholing one (which you haven't even mentioned btw)?

Are you guys really content with THAT?

Azamagon does bring up a good point about renewal, i had completely forgotten the awkwardness of the duration on it. since the new power setup is separate from the frames health pool, it should work where the drain is effected by both eff and duration and that the direct duration of the ability is effected positively.

 radiation overlapping is fine by me, honestly he will synergize really well with some teams

oberon is, by my thought pattern, a caster biased frame and the synergies will be there to complement using power combos like one might usually

on the side of the passive......not a good example.....but......vauban's passive.....this proposed oberon passive is over the moon better.

 

i would genuinely like for him to have more synergy between his powers, a jack of all, master of none....using all powers in combos with them all synergizing would be amazing

(more synergy ftw)

[Robm]

I would prefer if his 2 was a buff, it would make it worthwhile using.

[Reidmaster]

Hollowed Ground needs to be an aura that follows Oberon.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Naith said:

Someone on the forums suggested Hallowed Ground sprouting earth's new flowers and vegetation etc. for its graphics effect. Much like Nidus.

Sounds really neat and would show off one of the nice aspects of the earth rework. Is that something that could potentially be added?

he's a paladin!!!!

[Archwizard]

Great Aspects of This Rework

I've been told that before you say something critical, you should always include (or begin with) something kind, in order to make sure the subject is more receptive of your feedback.

• Smite deals scaling damage. This is excellent because it gives you reason to actually use the first ability; generally a lot of the older frames have their first abilities "fall off" because of their heavy damage focus and low or repetitive utility. It puts some distinction between his 1 and his 4.
• Hallowed Ground now covers a larger area. The strip was just hard to work around, and cost the player a lot of energy trying to cover areas. It still isn't perfect, but it's a huge step forward.
• Renewal has a faster cast time. This was about the only reason I considered using Natural Talent on him, so that's good.
• Renewal no longer consumes energy when it's not actually healing targets. This was just penalizing players for circumstances beyond their control.
• Renewal no longer ends the instant the target is fully healed. Now players can reasonably pre-cast this effect to help an ally, with the travel time being the main concern.

Questions About This Rework

Generally speaking, a lot of reworks tend to... forget to mention things during the hype. Usually negative things, or specifics that would affect the use of the ability.
For instance, Frost's initial rework hyped Freeze as becoming "Ice Blast", and that it was becoming more like Fireball - only to end up as a small buff to its damage. The recent Limbo rework didn't mention that Banish can no longer affect targets on the opposite side of the Rift from you.
These things tend to blindside us.
This is sometimes because they come late in the process (like with the deteriorating Shadows of the Dead change), but I want to make sure we're all on the same page and have no other surprises or miscommunications for when it comes out, so that concerns aren't drowned out by people being hyped.

• Does Hallowed Ground still grant armor to targets presently standing within it, without Renewal's effects? Or is the armor boost now limited to their interaction?
• Do Hallowed Ground and Renewal's armor bonuses stack? If so, is the effect additive or multiplicative?
• Do both Hallowed Ground and Renewal grant a bonus percentage of the target's armor (as Hallowed Ground does now), or a flat amount?
• Does Renewal's expanding wave have a maximum range? Or does it cover the entire map like the projectiles do?
• Does Renewal still have a bonus to bleedout duration?
• Does Reckoning still apply a Radiation proc of its own to targets?
• Is there anything else being taken away from abilities in order to streamline their effects?
• How are his base stats impacted? Even his passive isn't listed up there.
• Has his WIP passive (reduced cooldowns on Kubrow/Kavat abilities) changed?
• It was mentioned that his augments may also receive changes. Any news on that?

Concerns Specific to This Rework

• Reckoning provides bonus damage to victims of a Radiation proc.
  • How does this count as "synergy"? If Reckoning still has a chance to apply a Radiation proc on its own, then this just rewards players for spamming Reckoning (as they are wont to do with ultimates), not necessarily for combining their powers. (In Saryn's case, what almost made this work for Miasma was that it relied on procs provided by her other abilities.)
  • How does this count as "scaling"? 100% bonus damage is just the value of a second cast of Reckoning. If the damage of 1 Reckoning falls off, the damage of 2 will fall off at the same rate! This only makes it a way to kill targets maybe 10 levels higher than it can now. (This is a big concern with the current state of Miasma, as well.)
• Reckoning now removes armor from enemies standing in Hallowed Ground.
  • Oberon's main damage type is Radiation - which receives a bonus against armored targets. Doesn't this end up biting him?
  • Frost, Mag and Nekros can all remove target armor outright; Mag, Ash, Banshee, Trinity and Hydroid also get augments that allow them to peel off target armor. Doesn't this addition seem derivative?
• Renewal now is an expanding wave of effect.
  • If the particle wave just keeps getting bigger and bigger until it covers the entire map, won't this impact performance? 
  • Continuing from Question #4 above, if the wave has a maximum range, isn't this a nerf? Do Oberon or Renewal need a nerf?
• Oberon's passive has changed; last stated placeholder was to reduce the cooldown of Kubrow and Kavat abilities.
  • We've just shifted from a passive that was very niche and potentially level-breaking... to one that now only benefits the player for using a specific class of pet. Arguably the same could be said for passives like Excalibur's or Mesa's, but they can summon weapons that will allow them to benefit from their passives. How does his new passive interact with his kit, in any way?
• Hallowed Ground has interactions with two other abilities in his kit.
  • The synergy with Hallowed Ground is very forced, and not intuitive.
  • The fact that Hallowed Ground affects an area of unusual shape, will make the interactions between the other abilities unwieldy.
• When Saryn's kit was reworked to make her dependent on the interaction between her abilities rather than spamming just one, she needed to have a bonus to personal energy generation provided later on in order to make this sustainable. This is why forced dependence is bad, folks.

Still Not Addressed By This Rework

• Oberon's abilities are really cluttered, from several small effects (like status procs) being tacked on in lieu of fewer big benefits - and if we assume the abilities in the opening post are coming to him wholesale, that issue is just getting worse. His kit doesn't just need to be more effective, it needs to be streamlined for ease-of-use; otherwise, his kit will be dependent on the wiki.
  • Reckoning applies three different types of CC to targets - Knockdown, Blind, Radiation status - but they're all applied simultaneously, which seems a bit overkill. The Blind is the only one affected by his Duration, so no matter what, you get 3 seconds of Knockdown and 8 seconds of Confusion. If you have a high Duration, the Blind effect dips into the Radiation proc and prevents enemies from fighting each other; if you have the base Duration or lower, the Blind is virtually nonexistent under the Knockdown, especially since the Blind doesn't even open enemies up to Finishers while the Knockdown does.
• Hallowed Ground presently grants mitigation to allies in the form of a bonus percentage of their own armor. This means that frames with low armor get very little benefit in terms of armor gained (ie Zephyr jumps from 15 armor to a whopping 22 - a gain of 2% mitigation), and frames with high armor no longer require the protection it provides (because mitigation from armor plateaus after a certain point). Even Oberon only receives around 9% bonus mitigation from it before Strength mods. It makes the bonus very weak, especially since it only applies to health and cannot be stacked.
• Renewal's healing has a maximum Duration with inverted Duration scaling - but aside from the armor bonus from this rework, all of the side benefits from Renewal depend on the healing being active. The bleedout duration bonus it grants is increased by Duration, but a high Duration will also reduce the window during which you can receive the bleedout bonus. If you reduce your Duration to extend the healing uptime so that you can receive the bleedout bonus, then the bleedout bonus itself is diminished. The inverted Duration and bleedout bonus from Renewal simply cannot coexist.
  • Likewise, this inverted scaling also harms the window of the Phoenix Renewal augment.
• The health orbs from Reckoning are dependent not only on finishing off the target, but on an extra layer of RNG as well. As mentioned above, Reckoning really doesn't have scaling damage, so it's unlikely that it will even finish off targets in the first place, much less produce health orbs.
• Ultimately, it feels like the devs are unsure what Oberon is, and what direction to take him - case in point, Reckoning receiving changes that have already been done in other reworks nearly word for word. We keep hearing that he's a Paladin (even advertised as such), but then he gets things like "whimsical" bouncing projectiles, fairy wisps, or a passive that has nothing to do with his kit, because he's also a Druid and the Fairy King. It wouldn't matter if he were all three archetypes aesthetically if he was just one in terms of gameplay, but the fact that he tries to cram multiple roles into one kit ends up diminishing the values of each.
  • Example: Renewal improves to become a burstier heal; its original dispersion on full-health targets called back to a Paladin's Lay on Hands skill, dating back to D&D. However, the heal-over-time aspect attempts to delve into regeneration and regrowth abilities classically provided by Druids. Until this rework, this combination ultimately ended with Oberon getting the worst of both worlds: a delayed healing effect that fell off on max-health targets.
  • As long as Oberon attempts to fulfill multiple roles, that means there's no place for other frames with designs that would fulfill those roles better. If Oberon is both a Paladin and a Druid, there's no place for a new Paladin or Druid Warframe that concentrates on just one aspect.
    • I remind you: Oberon has always been advertised as a Paladin. Some of us are still waiting on one.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Archwizard
Corrected a calculation I wrote about Oberon's bonus mitigation from HG

[Chroia]

44 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

<snip> Add in how Phoenix Renewal works (pre rework) and it becomes a 'nobody dies ever' button. That can be seen as Too Good.

Doesn't PR have a team-wide cooldown? like 1 min or something? Edit Wiki says 90 seconds.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how's even a infinite range single revive (per minute at most) too good?

-----

11 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

<snip>

Superlative post, as usual.

-----

3 hours ago, Naizuri said:

What does Rad procs have to do with paladins...

Honestly, first time I saw Oberon's description and skillset, I thought 'Oh, he's Toxic Avenger'.
 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Chroia

[Valiant]

17 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

he's a paladin!!!!

Soooo? 

Besides that, he isn't just a simple and straight forward paladin with his design either. Reasonable druid theme going on too, I might add.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Naith said:

Soooo? 

Besides that, he isn't just a simple and straight forward paladin with his design either. Reasonable druid theme going on too, I might add.

Cosmetically, he draws from druid stuff, but every ability in his kit, apart from his cockeyed passive, is paladin.  He just does a really piss-poor job of it.

[lihimsidhe]

Just going to leave this here....

[(PSN)EvenYouCamp]

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Last week on Prime Time #161, we treated viewers with the first in-game look at Oberon’s (WIP) reworked powers as mentioned by Scott on Devstream #90. 

Missed the stream? No problem, the main changes that were showcased:

Smite: 

• Damage from projectiles emitted from the enemy scales based on enemy level.

Hallowed Ground: 

• Hallowed Ground is now more of an 'arc' shape (Range Mods create a wider/longer arc).
• Added a Status Chance that is affected by Strength Mods.
• Adjusted damage and ranges.

Renewal:

• Increased casting animation speed.
• Changed to an expanding wave of healing instead of a projectile. 
• Energy drain starts once wave hits allies, not leading up to it.
• Allies on Hallowed Ground get an Armor buff for the entire heal process. Once heal is finished the Armor buff is on a timer (affected by Duration).

Reckoning:

• Enemies with a Radiation Status Chance will now take bonus damage from Reckoning.
• Enemies standing on Hallowed Ground will receive Armor debuffs (affected by Strength).

We asked for your feedback and you delivered!

After compiling and discussing the prominent feedback, it was clear that our proposed Renewal rework was not enough to bring Oberon fresh justice.

The most prominent feedback:

• Renewal expires before the duration is up.

With this largely suggested feedback in mind, the team has made further tweaks to Oberon’s Renewal. As of right now, Oberon’s Renewal rework now also includes:

• Renewal doesn’t stop healing when the target ally is at full Health. It will continue to heal as long as it is active.

Your feedback is appreciated!

Check DM's please

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, Naith said:

Someone on the forums suggested Hallowed Ground sprouting earth's new flowers and vegetation etc. for its graphics effect. Much like Nidus.

Sounds really neat and would show off one of the nice aspects of the earth rework. Is that something that could potentially be added?

INB4 Lowers graphics because low end hardware ;-;

[NightmareT12]

Hallowed Ground shpuld not use flowers. It's supposed to ve purifying fire.

And Renewal shouldn't be a wave. RIP saving allies across rooms.

Will write something more properly when it's not 5AM.

*sigh*

Edited April 25, 2017 by NightmareT12

[Darkvramp]

Oberon doesn't need tweaking, he needs overhaul, right now and with the changes he will still be the same, useless and far inferior to other frames that do all of his kit way better.

[taiiat]

scaling the Worms isn't unwelcome, but it always felt like there weren't enough Worms in the first place. i recommend also increasing the base number of Worms.
however like many other Abilities, the cost reduction for repeated casts in a short time window should be applied to Smite.

general improvement to Hallowed Ground, no mechanical improvements perse, mostly QoL stuff, not much to say. i like the middleground of an 'arc' shape (ala Ice Wave i presume), as it tries to please both that like the rectangle shape and those that want the usual circle/sphere shape.
Hallowed Ground would significantly benefit from having a decent Slow to it though, so Enemies stay on it a bit longer. like 30%.
^{also Hallowed Eruption had better not get changed as it's a great alternative Playstyle Augment, giving different functionality rather than Powercreep}

Renewal has some minor QoL improvements, and since you say that Renewal won't cancel on full Health, it could finally be a useful Ability.
that also means the proposed synergy with Hallowed Ground will actually be useful/usable.
though 'expanding sphere' Abilities have limited Range while Renewal doesn't currently....

 

Reckoning dealing increased Damage to Enemies under Radiation Status is stupid. Reckoning applies Radiation Status, so if you're thinking this adds some Synergy... it doesn't.
it means always cast Reckoning twice because the second cast gets Bonus Damage.
l i t e r a l l y  e n c o u r a g e d  t o  s p a m  r e c k o n i n g  (more than currently, but removing Radiation Status from Reckoning isn't a solution, don't do that)

i get you want to encourage hitting Enemies with some other Abilities before using Reckoning, but Oberon has 3 Abilities with an offensive nature to them, and all 3 will apply Radiation Status.
you're going to have to differentiate for this type of Bonus in some other way.
perhaps Enemies that have been hit by one of the Worms takes increased Damage from Reckoning (bonus points if the scaling factor of the Worms can impart a bit of scaling to Reckoning - that would be a satisfying interaction and even would allow Reckoning to make use of the Health Orb generation feature)? and... Enemies on Hallowed Ground make a larger Blind Effect perhaps (like 2x Range)?

Edited April 25, 2017 by taiiat

[Evanescent]

Please do not remove armor buff from Hallowed ground, apply further armor when renewal STARTS healing, and allow it to stack with HG's armor buff.

Thanks for the renewal change!

[SquidTheSid]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

• Hallowed Ground presently grants mitigation to allies in the form of a bonus percentage of their own armor. This means that frames with low armor get very little benefit in terms of armor gained (ie Zephyr jumps from 15 armor to a whopping 22 - a gain of 2% mitigation), and frames with high armor get little benefit in terms of mitigation gained (because mitigation from armor plateaus after a certain point). Even Oberon only receives around 22% bonus mitigation from it. It makes the bonus very weak, especially since it only applies to health and cannot be stacked.

Quick correction. Armor scaling never falls off. A 99.5% DR to 99.75% DR is huge. If a frame were to take 1000 points of damage, then a 99.5% reduction is 1000 * (1-.995) = 5 points of damage, while a 99.75% reduction is 1000 * (1-.9975) = 2.5, or half the damage of before, meaning that that frame has twice the EHP with a 99.75% DR as opposed to a 99.5% DR. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by SquidTheSid

[PsiWarp]

42 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Another thought.

Have Oberon standing on Hallowed Ground be what dictates if Renewal gives an armor buff rather than the other team members.

This would be ideal. Alternatively, allow Renewal to "supercharge" existing Hallowed Grounds that the wave touches, so it gives allies the Armor buff anytime they walk on one.

[Rhaken]

It's 5 in the morning, I just got back from a birthday party and it's a national holiday. Let's do this.

Regarding the Renewal change: DE, I could hug every last one of you. Properly tweaked, Renewal will finally be a heal worth using. Now for everything else.

 

Smite now scales with enemy level. This is a straight up buff and much appreciated. However, if the point was to turn Smite into a powerful damage ability (or even Oberon's primary source of damage as far as powers are concerned), it would have to scale exponentially with enemy level, much like enemies themselves. The build we were shown was apparently a high power strength build (I cannot, for the life of me, remember the exact stats) and it still wasn't enough to kill enemies in the Kuva Fortress. Something to consider, though it may warrant no further effort as long as the old CC remains.

 

Hallowed Ground has shapeshifted, which we've wanted since forever. It presents two problems, however. It's still a stationary buff platform in a game that values extremely high mobility. One way to possibly make the buff worth it would be to make the armor bonus (which definitely should be staying and not just activated with Renewal) a flat value, and preferably a significant value. Furthermore, it the buff persists after a player leaves the HG, it won't cripple mobility in any way. Think of it this way: stepping on HG gives you an armor buff. If you leave, the buff goes on a timer, just like the new Renewal's armor buff. If those armor buffs stack, Oberon becomes his team's best friend.

 

Reckoning has been buffed with several synergies. As long as we don't take away the rad procs it has now, it's a pure unadultared buff. However, it's insufficient because of one little thing: the health orb generation. Reckoning is not a reliable killing power. No matter how many neat synergies we throw at it, it never will be a reliable killing power. Reckoning can, however, become not only a powerful source of CC, but a massive boost to the whole squad. It takes a single change: Reckoning now causes enemies to drop health orbs on death if they die while under its effects. You cast Reckoning on your Hallowed Ground, and now a bunch of enemies are squishier (armor strip), trying to beat each other to death (radiation proc) and turn into healing orbs when the rest of the team riddles them with bullets and pellets and Zarr rockets.

 

The new passive is neat, but not without issues. First, it forces players to change to companions in order to even have a passive. I'm sure it's simple to understand why that's not such a hot idea. Second, it can be argued that it's unthematic. Oberon may be named after the king of faeries, but his entire kit screams "paladin". His powers reflect the righteous fury of the light both in name (Smite, Hallowed Ground, Reckoning) and in effects (light is radiation). The only thing druidic about him right now is a passive he was given some months back. A passive most of us don't even like.

To fix these issues, we can make the passive inclusive by also buffing sentinels. However, that's not very thematic of Oberon. (Remember: arguably, neither is the proposed passive.) We can also change the passive into something else. It is at this point where we decide whether Oberon's new passive is just a neat little addon to the whole package, or a powerful tool that brings his kit together and makes him better at all that he does. My suggestion for the latter (purely because I want Oberon to be ridiculously awesome, like a lot of other frames): Enemies that die while affected by a Radiation proc have a chance to drop a health orb.

 

Finally, some notes on sygergy. Adding effects to abilities that only activate when different abilities interact is not a straightforward thing. Taken too far, that approach can lead to many people either finding a frame underpowered, or not worth the trouble of getting it to work. Let's the rather polarizing example of Saryn (a frame I have spent a hell of a lot of time with).

To many players, Saryn isn't worth playing. It takes too much work to get Spores' viral procs going, along with Toxic Lash for Toxin procs, along with a Molt for the added explosion damage, to finish with Miasma and deal a ton of damage to everything nearby.

To many other players, Saryn is an absolute beast. You plop down a Molt, slap a couple Spores on it. Enemies attack the Molt, get covered in Spores and eat a Viral proc that makes them much easier to kill. Nail them with a toxin weapon to spread a lot of damage around very quickly. Toxic Lash is there if you feel like going melee, or are in dire need of an energy boost. Miasma is there for the stun and pretty much no other reason. It's perfectly common for Saryns with max range builds and a toxin/gas weapon in their loadout to either get over 50% of the squad's damage or over 50% of the squad's kills by the end of the mission. Check videos from LifeOf Rio to see what I mean.

What's my point with all this? Synergy affects the mind. Some people want it all and end up finding the whole thing wanting. Others find the essential and take the rest as a cherry on top of the cake. In the rework we were shown, the essential tool in Oberon's arsenal is Hallowed Ground. If this idea is here to stay, there are two things (probably more) to remember. #1: Hallowed Ground must be powerful enough that we, as Oberon players, will find plenty of merit in casting it often. #2: The added synergies with other powers must be useful, but by no means essential. The synergies are cherries on the cake, not half the cake itself. They should be something extra that's nice to have when interacting with Hallowed Ground (for example), not something you absolutely must have with every cast.

 

I do believe my rant is over for now. Off to sleep. I'm sure I'll think of something else tomorrow.

[Rhaken]

53 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Another thought.

Have Oberon standing on Hallowed Ground be what dictates if Renewal gives an armor buff rather than the other team members.

You, my friend, are a genius. That's beautiful. It solves the problem of restricting the mobility of your teammates.

An alternative would be for Renewal to provide the armor buff regardless and discard the need for synergy with another power, thereby reducing the need to compulsively cast. However, this may be a bit much.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

1 minute ago, Trickst3rGawd said:

SOMEONE SPITBALL IDEAS FOR BUFFS TO RECKONING BEFORE DIS IS OVER BECAUSE IT NEEDS SOMETHING TO MAKE IT FEEL LIKE A REAL ULTIMATE NOT UNDERPOWERED THANK YOU ALL

5 random enemies hit by reckoning gain the threat level as high as molt for 15 seconds (duration based)

[OxideNation]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Great Aspects of This Rework

I've been told that before you say something critical, you should always include (or begin with) something kind, in order to make sure the subject is more receptive of your feedback.

• Smite deals scaling damage. This is excellent because it gives you reason to actually use the first ability; generally a lot of the older frames have their first abilities "fall off" because of their heavy damage focus and low or repetitive utility. It puts some distinction between his 1 and his 4.
• Hallowed Ground now covers a larger area. The strip was just hard to work around, and cost the player a lot of energy trying to cover areas. It still isn't perfect, but it's a huge step forward.
• Renewal has a faster cast time. This was about the only reason I considered using Natural Talent on him, so that's good.
• Renewal no longer consumes energy when it's not actually healing targets. This was just penalizing players for circumstances beyond their control.
• Renewal no longer ends the instant the target is fully healed. Now players can reasonably pre-cast this effect to help an ally, with the travel time being the main concern.

Questions About This Rework

Generally speaking, a lot of reworks tend to... forget to mention things during the hype. Usually negative things, or specifics that would affect the use of the ability.
For instance, Frost's initial rework hyped Freeze as becoming "Ice Blast", and that it was becoming more like Fireball - only to end up as a small buff to its damage. The recent Limbo rework didn't mention that Banish can no longer affect targets on the opposite side of the Rift from you.
These things tend to blindside us.
This is sometimes because they come late in the process (like with the deteriorating Shadows of the Dead change), but I want to make sure we're all on the same page and have no other surprises or miscommunications for when it comes out, so that concerns aren't drowned out by people being hyped.

• Does Hallowed Ground still grant armor to targets presently standing within it, without Renewal's effects? Or is the armor boost now limited to their interaction?
• Do Hallowed Ground and Renewal's armor bonuses stack? If so, is the effect additive or multiplicative?
• Do both Hallowed Ground and Renewal grant a bonus percentage of the target's armor (as Hallowed Ground does now), or a flat amount?
• Does Renewal's expanding wave have a maximum range? Or does it cover the entire map like the projectiles do?
• Does Renewal still have a bonus to bleedout duration?
• Does Reckoning still apply a Radiation proc of its own to targets?
• Is there anything else being taken away from abilities in order to streamline their effects?
• How are his base stats impacted? Even his passive isn't listed up there.
• Has his WIP passive (reduced cooldowns on Kubrow/Kavat abilities) changed?
• It was mentioned that his augments may also receive changes. Any news on that?

Concerns Specific to This Rework

• Reckoning provides bonus damage to victims of a Radiation proc.
  • How does this count as "synergy"? If Reckoning still has a chance to apply a Radiation proc on its own, then this just rewards players for spamming Reckoning (as they are wont to do with ultimates), not necessarily for combining their powers. (In Saryn's case, what almost made this work for Miasma was that it relied on procs provided by her other abilities.)
  • How does this count as "scaling"? 100% bonus damage is just the value of a second cast of Reckoning. If the damage of 1 Reckoning falls off, the damage of 2 will fall off at the same rate! This only makes it a way to kill targets maybe 10 levels higher than it can now. (This is a big concern with the current state of Miasma, as well.)
• Reckoning now removes armor from enemies standing in Hallowed Ground.
  • Oberon's main damage type is Radiation - which receives a bonus against armored targets. Doesn't this end up biting him?
  • Frost, Mag and Nekros can all remove target armor outright; Mag, Ash, Banshee, Trinity and Hydroid also get augments that allow them to peel off target armor. Doesn't this addition seem derivative?
• Renewal now is an expanding wave of effect.
  • If the particle wave just keeps getting bigger and bigger until it covers the entire map, won't this impact performance? 
  • Continuing from Question #4 above, if the wave has a maximum range, isn't this a nerf? Do Oberon or Renewal need a nerf?
• Oberon's passive has changed; last stated placeholder was to reduce the cooldown of Kubrow and Kavat abilities.
  • We've just shifted from a passive that was very niche and potentially level-breaking... to one that now only benefits the player for using a specific class of pet. Arguably the same could be said for passives like Excalibur's or Mesa's, but they can summon weapons that will allow them to benefit from their passives. How does his new passive interact with his kit, in any way?
• Hallowed Ground has interactions with two other abilities in his kit.
  • The synergy with Hallowed Ground is very forced, and not intuitive.
  • The fact that Hallowed Ground affects an area of unusual shape, will make the interactions between the other abilities unwieldy.
• When Saryn's kit was reworked to make her dependent on the interaction between her abilities rather than spamming just one, she needed to have a bonus to personal energy generation provided later on in order to make this sustainable. This is why forced dependence is bad, folks.

Still Not Addressed By This Rework

• Oberon's abilities are really cluttered, from several small effects (like status procs) being tacked on in lieu of fewer big benefits - and if we assume the abilities in the opening post are coming to him wholesale, that issue is just getting worse. His kit doesn't just need to be more effective, it needs to be streamlined for ease-of-use; otherwise, his kit will be dependent on the wiki.
  • Reckoning applies three different types of CC to targets - Knockdown, Blind, Radiation status - but they're all applied simultaneously, which seems a bit overkill. The Blind is the only one affected by his Duration, so no matter what, you get 3 seconds of Knockdown and 8 seconds of Confusion. If you have a high Duration, the Blind effect dips into the Radiation proc and prevents enemies from fighting each other; if you have the base Duration or lower, the Blind is virtually nonexistent under the Knockdown, especially since the Blind doesn't even open enemies up to Finishers while the Knockdown does.
• Hallowed Ground presently grants mitigation to allies in the form of a bonus percentage of their own armor. This means that frames with low armor get very little benefit in terms of armor gained (ie Zephyr jumps from 15 armor to a whopping 22 - a gain of 2% mitigation), and frames with high armor get little benefit in terms of mitigation gained (because mitigation from armor plateaus after a certain point). Even Oberon only receives around 22% bonus mitigation from it. It makes the bonus very weak, especially since it only applies to health and cannot be stacked.
• Renewal's healing has a maximum Duration with inverted Duration scaling - but aside from the armor bonus from this rework, all of the side benefits from Renewal depend on the healing being active. The bleedout duration bonus it grants is increased by Duration, but a high Duration will also reduce the window during which you can receive the bleedout bonus. If you reduce your Duration to extend the healing uptime so that you can receive the bleedout bonus, then the bleedout bonus itself is diminished. The inverted Duration and bleedout bonus from Renewal simply cannot coexist.
  • Likewise, this inverted scaling also harms the window of the Phoenix Renewal augment.
• The health orbs from Reckoning are dependent not only on finishing off the target, but on an extra layer of RNG as well. As mentioned above, Reckoning really doesn't have scaling damage, so it's unlikely that it will even finish off targets in the first place, much less produce health orbs.
• Ultimately, it feels like the devs are unsure what Oberon is, and what direction to take him - case in point, Reckoning receiving changes that have already been done in other reworks nearly word for word. We keep hearing that he's a Paladin (even advertised as such), but then he gets things like "whimsical" bouncing projectiles, fairy wisps, or a passive that has nothing to do with his kit, because he's also a Druid and the Fairy King. It wouldn't matter if he were all three archetypes aesthetically if he was just one in terms of gameplay, but the fact that he tries to cram multiple roles into one kit ends up diminishing the values of each.
  • Example: Renewal improves to become a burstier heal; its original dispersion on full-health targets called back to a Paladin's Lay on Hands skill, dating back to D&D. However, the heal-over-time aspect attempts to delve into regeneration and regrowth abilities classically provided by Druids. Until this rework, this combination ultimately ended with Oberon getting the worst of both worlds: a delayed healing effect that fell off on max-health targets.
  • As long as Oberon attempts to fulfill multiple roles, that means there's no place for other frames with designs that would fulfill those roles better. If Oberon is both a Paladin and a Druid, there's no place for a new Paladin or Druid Warframe that concentrates on just one aspect.
    • I remind you: Oberon has always been advertised as a Paladin. Some of us are still waiting on one.

PRREEACCCHHH MYY MANNNNNN OR LADYY!!! PRREAACCHH  :DDDDD

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

4 minutes ago, Trickst3rGawd said:

SOMEONE SPITBALL IDEAS FOR BUFFS TO RECKONING BEFORE DIS IS OVER BECAUSE IT NEEDS SOMETHING TO MAKE IT FEEL LIKE A REAL ULTIMATE NOT UNDERPOWERED THANK YOU ALL

every 10 enemies (effected by eff) hit by reckoning will spawn 1 kavat or kubrow to fight along side oberon for a duration (effected by duration mods)