General_Durandal

Surtr, the Doombringer - Warframe Concept

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4 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

No, can't see through walls, so can't hit enemies behind walls.
Yes, hold 3 to turn on, then hold 3 to turn off the self flames.

Unmodded 1200 health at rank 30,
with maxed Vigor has 2640,
with maced Vigor Prime has 3840,
with maxed vitality has 6480,
with maxed Vitality and Vigor Prime has 9120.
Enemies effected by immolation dying give 8% max health per kill,
10.4% with Intensify.
12.4% with Transient Fortitude.
15.92% with Blind Rage.
9.92% with Auger Secrets.
24.64% with Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage, and Auger Secrets active.
So if modded for max strength Efficiency and Health, he could be pretty hard to take down.

I think the self damage would work with the Rage mod, making it extra useful.

i see. so Raw health and self healing (+life steal i guess after melee 3.0 changes). would be interesting to see, even if enemies have 1 second to take him down (some high level damage can be nasty, but with such hp it must be something really high level). 

and costs... i guess they are balanced around his energy not health? Because while his health is too high, his energy too low and he really don't need any source to reduce damage taken for rage/Hunter adrenalin work? 

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1 hour ago, Zorish said:

i see. so Raw health and self healing (+life steal i guess after melee 3.0 changes). would be interesting to see, even if enemies have 1 second to take him down (some high level damage can be nasty, but with such hp it must be something really high level). 

and costs... i guess they are balanced around his energy not health? Because while his health is too high, his energy too low and he really don't need any source to reduce damage taken for rage/Hunter adrenalin work? 

Well, he has low energy, and high health, and his powers take less energy, but also cost health to use.

His 1st, takes 15 energy and health to cast, but normally takes 25 energy for other warframes.
His 2nd takes 25 energy and health,
his 3rd takes 35 energy and health, hold 3rd take 15 energy and health, with a 3 energy and health drain,
and his 4th takes 10 energy and health to turn on, and 4 energy and health drain.
Health cost might need to be increased, since he can have so much health.

I think Rage would negate the need for energy,
since he hurts himself when casting abilities, he'd get energy back.
Still would need some energy to cast abilities, but less then other frames, so rage might still be useful.

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Definitely seen some balancing since I last commented. Which is good, it needed it. Again, love the theme, Norse mythology is hardcore af. But I still fear that between ember, chroma, and nezha, the playing field for fire frames is a bit crowded. Also, a lot of these abilities sound like they'd be better suited as ideas for an ember rework. Which would be awesome. Because she sucks.

Idk, all I can think of as a solution is to somehow shift the focus away from the fire and more toward the world-destroying raw power. Like, He can have fiery effects, but don't make the fire itself the main focus of the abilities.

Not sure any of that helps. Again, I like it, but I just think he blends in with existing frames too much right now.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

Definitely seen some balancing since I last commented. Which is good, it needed it. Again, love the theme, Norse mythology is hardcore af. But I still fear that between ember, chroma, and nezha, the playing field for fire frames is a bit crowded. Also, a lot of these abilities sound like they'd be better suited as ideas for an ember rework. Which would be awesome. Because she sucks.

Idk, all I can think of as a solution is to somehow shift the focus away from the fire and more toward the world-destroying raw power. Like, He can have fiery effects, but don't make the fire itself the main focus of the abilities.

Not sure any of that helps. Again, I like it, but I just think he blends in with existing frames too much right now.

with so many frames, some themes will overlap anyway. plus what you said. Ember play role of some kind of Fire mage, Nezha mix of support and agility (plus his theme come from actuall nezha in chinese religion - look yourself). Chroma is CHROMATIC dragon (who can actually change him) so he is out of rules. And Surtr would take fire melee warrior theme.

p.s. also - no to ember gettingh this! we already have Valkyr for melee frame, and garuda on the radar. 2 heavy melee frames are "female", and 1 male (excalibur). And all of them are more "agility" based frames. 

Edited by Zorish
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39 minutes ago, Zorish said:

with so many frames, some themes will overlap anyway. plus what you said. Ember play role of some kind of Fire mage, Nezha mix of support and agility (plus his theme come from actuall nezha in chinese religion - look yourself). Chroma is CHROMATIC dragon (who can actually change him) so he is out of rules. And Surtr would take fire melee warrior theme.

p.s. also - no to ember gettingh this! we already have Valkyr for melee frame, and garuda on the radar. 2 heavy melee frames are "female", and 1 male (excalibur). And all of them are more "agility" based frames. 

Some themes will overlap, yes, but fire is one theme that is very obviously repeated. This current ability setup doesn't seem to favor melee or range, it seems balanced between the two of anything. Though if the flaming sword behaves like Exalted Blade, then it's really more of a ranged move too. Point is, there's nothing here that inherently prevents it from being used in an ember rework. Fire and ice are overwhelmingly used on chroma, people don't currently experiment with all his elements, so I still count him as both an ice and fire frame. Until DE reworks him to make all elements equally useful anyway. 

Not sure what your point is bringing up valkyr, she has literally nothing to do with this frame. And we know nothing about garuda yet besides one piece of concept art and a name. A name that should be changed because it's way too similar to gara and she's still too recent to be copying her name. But I digress.

An ideal setup for this frame would be "annihilation." Have some heat effects, sure. But the powers should be less about burning the enemy as they are about wiping them out of existence. Surtr brings about the end of the world, so let's have him dissolving enemies "I don't feel so good" style. (That will be very confusing I'm sure if you don't get the reference XD). 

Edit: also. Not sure people will be able to get used to calling that forth ability by the sword name. Might need something simple, catchy, easy to remember, just so it fits in with how most abilities are named in warframe.

Edited by (PS4)warhero229

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6 hours ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

Some themes will overlap, yes, but fire is one theme that is very obviously repeated. This current ability setup doesn't seem to favor melee or range, it seems balanced between the two of anything. Though if the flaming sword behaves like Exalted Blade, then it's really more of a ranged move too. Point is, there's nothing here that inherently prevents it from being used in an ember rework. Fire and ice are overwhelmingly used on chroma, people don't currently experiment with all his elements, so I still count him as both an ice and fire frame. Until DE reworks him to make all elements equally useful anyway. 

Not sure what your point is bringing up valkyr, she has literally nothing to do with this frame. And we know nothing about garuda yet besides one piece of concept art and a name. A name that should be changed because it's way too similar to gara and she's still too recent to be copying her name. But I digress.

An ideal setup for this frame would be "annihilation." Have some heat effects, sure. But the powers should be less about burning the enemy as they are about wiping them out of existence. Surtr brings about the end of the world, so let's have him dissolving enemies "I don't feel so good" style. (That will be very confusing I'm sure if you don't get the reference XD). 

Edit: also. Not sure people will be able to get used to calling that forth ability by the sword name. Might need something simple, catchy, easy to remember, just so it fits in with how most abilities are named in warframe.

people using only 2 elements have nothing with chroma theme. even if 2 of elements a lacking, he still have them and cover theme of "chromatic dragon". And also he is not clearly melee nor range. you can build him in any way you want.

second - again. Surtr have SWORD. he battle in ragnarok using SWORD, not casting some fireballs from distant (at least not as magelike, but rather "in your face"). Want rework ember? use fire mage style with no melee at all. 

If you think Garuda name must be changed BECAUSE it's similar to gara... well i don't know what you thinking. Maybe it's better read who is Garuda? And that gara have nothing with actuall "Garuda" theme?

What are you talking about? Annihilation? He is no Thanos, he is only PART of ragnarok. His deal is "Surtr "will fling fire over the earth burn the whole world"" from wiki. FIRE is his theme. Bringing "annihilation" through FIRE, not some kind of cosmic magic. 

 

Only where i can agree is that his sword project waves like excalibur. Maybe better to change it to some kind flame combustion on every strike around sword hit. 

 

p.s. btw in your "reference" you can see Surtr TOO. And he was giant created from magma who brought down asgard by FIRE AND SWORD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdqlSdSORl8

 

Edited by Zorish
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1 hour ago, Zorish said:

people using only 2 elements have nothing with chroma theme. even if 2 of elements a lacking, he still have them and cover theme of "chromatic dragon". And also he is not clearly melee nor range. you can build him in any way you want.

second - again. Surtr have SWORD. he battle in ragnarok using SWORD, not casting some fireballs from distant (at least not as magelike, but rather "in your face"). Want rework ember? use fire mage style with no melee at all. 

If you think Garuda name must be changed BECAUSE it's similar to gara... well i don't know what you thinking. Maybe it's better read who is Garuda? And that gara have nothing with actuall "Garuda" theme?

What are you talking about? Annihilation? He is no Thanos, he is only PART of ragnarok. His deal is "Surtr "will fling fire over the earth burn the whole world"" from wiki. FIRE is his theme. Bringing "annihilation" through FIRE, not some kind of cosmic magic. 

 

Only where i can agree is that his sword project waves like excalibur. Maybe better to change it to some kind flame combustion on every strike around sword hit. 

 

p.s. btw in your "reference" you can see Surtr TOO. And he was giant created from magma who brought down asgard by FIRE AND SWORD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdqlSdSORl8

 

People only using two elements affects the perception of the frame, regardless of what was intended. I never claimed he was strictly melee or ranged. Read my comments again.

I get that "Surtr have sword" but as I said before, if it behaves like Excalibur's blade, then it becomes more like a ranged attack than a melee. If it flings energy waves with each swing, then it may as well just be fireballs.

I'll explain what I'm thinking more slowly this time. Garuda is almost the exact same name as Gara. It's basically just adding "da" at the end. They may as well release a new frame named Gary. To be perfectly crystal clear, my issue is with the names and their similarity, not the overall themes of each frame. 

What am I talking about when I say annihilation? 

an·ni·hi·la·tion
əˌnīəˈlāSHən/
noun

1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
"the threat of global annihilation"

That, is what I am talking about. I completely understand that he uses fire to achieve this. Got that. 100%. What I am arguing here is that the fire doesn't have to be his main focus. It can be a visual effect, while his actual abilities could be shifted to focus on, again, annihilation. Just to repeat myself, that doesn't mean that I somehow missed the fact that Surtr is a flaming giant. It just doesn't have to be his defining quality.

And here you just contradict your earlier argument that "sword = melee." gg.

p.s. Not even in my reference, that's a different movie, but yes, I'm aware they feature him. And again, your laser-focus on the words "fire" and "sword" shows impressive dedication but its not all that relevant to my argument here. 1:1 adaptations don't fit into Warframe well. Gotta be at least a bit creative in interpretation.

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36 minutes ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

People only using two elements affects the perception of the frame, regardless of what was intended. I never claimed he was strictly melee or ranged. Read my comments again.

I get that "Surtr have sword" but as I said before, if it behaves like Excalibur's blade, then it becomes more like a ranged attack than a melee. If it flings energy waves with each swing, then it may as well just be fireballs.

I'll explain what I'm thinking more slowly this time. Garuda is almost the exact same name as Gara. It's basically just adding "da" at the end. They may as well release a new frame named Gary. To be perfectly crystal clear, my issue is with the names and their similarity, not the overall themes of each frame. 

What am I talking about when I say annihilation? 

an·ni·hi·la·tion
əˌnīəˈlāSHən/
noun

1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
"the threat of global annihilation"

That, is what I am talking about. I completely understand that he uses fire to achieve this. Got that. 100%. What I am arguing here is that the fire doesn't have to be his main focus. It can be a visual effect, while his actual abilities could be shifted to focus on, again, annihilation. Just to repeat myself, that doesn't mean that I somehow missed the fact that Surtr is a flaming giant. It just doesn't have to be his defining quality.

And here you just contradict your earlier argument that "sword = melee." gg.

p.s. Not even in my reference, that's a different movie, but yes, I'm aware they feature him. And again, your laser-focus on the words "fire" and "sword" shows impressive dedication but its not all that relevant to my argument here. 1:1 adaptations don't fit into Warframe well. Gotta be at least a bit creative in interpretation.

even if it's affecting their perception - that doesn't mean that he have only 2 elements theme. It's people problem, not frame. 

As i said then what need to change it from excalibur - just make him fireblast with every melee swing, so it will be melee aoe, instead "ranged". 

If someone have a problem with one warframe having 2 same letters at the begining, then it's problem of that person, not warframe.

And he is achieving it with fire O_o everyone who come near him just burn to ash, slowly or fast. That's his way to "bring anihilation", i don't understand what do you want from him. Explosions instead fire?

contradict? what contradict? making his swings produce fireblast at close range instead long range waves? where is contradiction?

p.s. in the end it's NOT OUR CONCEPT. i came here to make few suggestions and tweaks if i can (and of course to support that idea in hope that DE see this), but not completly shift focus of frame created by Author of this thred, while you came with "you can easily use this abilities for Ember rework".

Edited by Zorish

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1 hour ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

I get that "Surtr have sword" but as I said before, if it behaves like Excalibur's blade, then it becomes more like a ranged attack than a melee. If it flings energy waves with each swing, then it may as well just be fireballs.

Shorter range, wider AoE, the wave does less damage, and only heat damage, so relying on it's range to do the damage is not smart.
Excal's blade wave deals the same amount and types of damage the sword deals, so it is a reliable ranged killer.

The waves are less air-born energy waves, and more bursts of flame lashing out from the blade as it is swung, kinda like a whip of fire extending from the blade.

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1 minute ago, General_Durandal said:

Shorter range, wider AoE, the wave does less damage, and only heat damage, so relying on it's range to do the damage is not smart.
Excal's blade wave deals the same amount and types of damage the sword deals, so it is a reliable ranged killer.

The waves are less air-born energy waves, and more bursts of flame lashing out from the blade as it is swung, kinda like a whip of fire extending from the blade.

makes sense. i assume Surtr's sword style is more like a heavy claymore than Excalibur's more agile attacks?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

be shifted to focus on, again, annihilation.

He annihilates by burning things with fire, in both myth, and concept setup.

In what other way would he annihilate things?
He has no base magic powers, so base energy bamage is a no.
Lightning is a no. 
You want him to annihilate with physical damage?
He ain't no Superman, capable of destroying earth in a single punch.

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1 minute ago, General_Durandal said:

He annihilates by burning things with fire, in both myth, and concept setup.

In what other way would he annihilate things?
He has no base magic powers, so base energy bamage is a no.
Lightning is a no. 
You want him to annihilate with physical damage?
He ain't no Superman, capable of destroying earth in a single punch.

annihilation through fire. what ive been saying this whole time is that his damage style should be in slow, forceful waves of heat, rather than Ember's slow miniscule health-ticking heat procs.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

makes sense. i assume Surtr's sword style is more like a heavy claymore than Excalibur's more agile attacks?

 

On 2017-04-26 at 5:31 PM, General_Durandal said:
  • Appearance: Large sword with a molten blade, wreathed in flame.
  • Type: One Handed Great Sword

A great sword is a claymore.

On 2017-04-26 at 5:31 PM, General_Durandal said:
  • The sword is heavy, and slow, with simple motions.
  • Every swing unleashes a wave of flame that travels 8 meters farther than the sword's reach,
  • and passes through all enemies in it's path, harming them all.

Excal is fast agile swings, can esially swing multiple times in a second.

Surtr's swings are much slower, with a longer physical hit, with a shorter ranged hit.

His attacks also don't loop infinitly, like Excal's.
Excal can just keep spaming E to make endless waves of energy.
While Surtr's E combo is E, E, E, the 3rd E dosn't have a wave, because it's a punch, then the combo resets back to a swing.

~

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

annihilation through fire. what ive been saying this whole time is that his damage style should be in slow, forceful waves of heat, rather than Ember's slow miniscule health-ticking heat procs.

Is.

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2 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

 

A great sword is a claymore.

Excal is fast agile swings, can esially swing multiple times in a second.

Surtr's swings are much slower, with a longer physical hit, with a shorter ranged hit.

His attacks also don't loop infinitly, like Excal's.
Excal can just keep spaming E to make endless waves of energy.
While Surtr's E combo is E, E, E, the 3rd E dosn't have a wave, because it's a punch, then the combo resets back to a swing.

~

one-handed though throws it off. idk, using one hand only just makes it seem much less menacing or powerful.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

one-handed though throws it off. idk, using one hand only just makes it seem much less menacing or powerful.

Think Lord of Cinder Gwyn from Dark Souls.

 

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3 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Think Lord of Cinder Gwyn from Dark Souls.

 

even in that video, the attacks dont look that great until he switches to a 2-handed style at about 0:26

maybe its just me 

edit: a mix of the two works, to signify the weight of the weapon

Edited by (PS4)warhero229

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Just now, (PS4)warhero229 said:

even in that video, the attacks dont look that great until he switches to a 2-handed style at about 0:26

maybe its just me 

Exactly.

Even though Surtr's sword is bigger then Excal's, it being an exalted weapon has to still to the same 250 total damage.
So, the big heavy sword still only does the same amount of damage as a faster smaller sword.
But, it has more utility, like a grapple attack, guaranteed knockdown attacks, AoE explosions, and stuff.

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14 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Exactly.

Even though Surtr's sword is bigger then Excal's, it being an exalted weapon has to still to the same 250 total damage.
So, the big heavy sword still only does the same amount of damage as a faster smaller sword.
But, it has more utility, like a grapple attack, guaranteed knockdown attacks, AoE explosions, and stuff.

do you have a source on that "exalted weapons all do 250" bit? i havnt seen that anywhere. doesnt sound right.

edit: Seems wukong's staff, valkyr's talons, and excalibur's blade deal 250 per hit, but with significant differences in attack speed. titania's blade deals much less though. and there seems to be no pattern to exalted guns. seems like DE themselves cant decide whether to stick to that "rule" or not

Edited by (PS4)warhero229

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1 hour ago, General_Durandal said:

Exactly.

Even though Surtr's sword is bigger then Excal's, it being an exalted weapon has to still to the same 250 total damage.
So, the big heavy sword still only does the same amount of damage as a faster smaller sword.
But, it has more utility, like a grapple attack, guaranteed knockdown attacks, AoE explosions, and stuff.

maybe for his stance idea - while sword can have same 250 damage... but make it like Crimson Dervish stance in comparison to Vengefull revenant? Like every strike are slower, but do 200-300% damage (whatever you choose to do). 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)warhero229 said:

do you have a source on that "exalted weapons all do 250" bit? i havnt seen that anywhere. doesnt sound right.

edit: Seems wukong's staff, valkyr's talons, and excalibur's blade deal 250 per hit, but with significant differences in attack speed. titania's blade deals much less though. and there seems to be no pattern to exalted guns. seems like DE themselves cant decide whether to stick to that "rule" or not

Can't really expect a sword a couple inches long to deal as much damage as a energy sword.
Ranged weapons are another thing, Mesa's can fire super fast, so it being super strong would be OP.
Her ult is still OP, even though it has reduced damage compared to other exalteds.

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Thread cleaned.

I have to remind to everyone that ad hominem arguments aren't constructive and respectful in any way. 

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On 2018-07-16 at 12:02 PM, General_Durandal said:

Can't really expect a sword a couple inches long to deal as much damage as a energy sword.
Ranged weapons are another thing, Mesa's can fire super fast, so it being super strong would be OP.
Her ult is still OP, even though it has reduced damage compared to other exalteds.

well... depends what you mean. Yeah "energy" sword doesn't have weight behind it if you think about. And depends on how you design Surtr weapon, he can have bigger part of "impact" damage compared to excalibur one. Plus as i already mention. You can have same damage on it with stats, but treat it's damage different through stance! Like VR (vengeful revenant) stance for one handed weapons have 100% damage on hit, while CR (crimson dervish) slower, but hit harder (300% per hit).

So we can have stance called something like "Blade of ruin" where he swing with much slower speed, but do 300-400% damage per hit. 

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