It's about time to take a look at weapon switching / Holster Speed in Warframe

[Noctah]

Hello,

I've been bugged by the weapon switching system in Warframe for a while, and the release of the Cycron is the perfect opportunity to give some feedback and suggestions.

Holstering is a relic of a time where Warframe had a Stamina bar. It's about time to take a look at it, I feel.

Have you played with the Javlok (or Ferrox)? Ever had this moment where you throw out the javelin, empty your secondary weapon's magazine, then pick your primary back up (instantaneously switching your current equipped weapon to the javelin), and then proceed to continue the carnage with it?

That's one of my main inspiration. Let's go over the Cycron first.

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Currently, the Cycron has the following design idea:

A beam secondary with decent damage/status and infinite max ammo, with a magazine that reloads itself without pressing the reload key, and even while holstered, but as a tradeoff, sports a long delay before it regenerates ammo. Players are encouraged to switch to the Cycron, empty its magazine, and switch back to their primaries while it reloads.

That's not a bad gun idea. I can dig it. But, because of the problems with weapon switching (not the fault of the weapon itself), here's what it is to the eyes of most players:

A beam secondary with decent damage/status and infinite max ammo that has a magazine that empties itself too fast, and the time it takes to switch weapons being just as long as waiting for the reload makes it so that you cannot use it without long, awkward downtime, where you're left either hiding or spamming Quick Melee.

In one word: unreliable.

(EDIT: It's been buffed since then, but the same design idea is somewhat in effect.)

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Now, what are the problems with Holster Speed and weapon switching in general? Here's a few that particularly bug me:

-> Ping affects weapon switching delay

The higher your ping (connection speed to the host), the higher the delay between the player pressing F (by default) to switch weapons, and your Warframe accomplishing the action.
This delay is NOT affected by Holster Speed, only ping, leading to clunky, awkward situations where the player has equipped mods such as Streamlined Form or Speed Holster, he presses F, but he's still stuck doing nothing for a second or two before the Warframe finally switches guns lightning fast.

-> When switching to your Melee (equipping it to enable combos and channeling), if you Melee Attack too early, you do a Quick Melee instead, then the Warframe slowly sheathes his blade, only to take it back out, and finally you can start doing Stance Combos.

If you had the genius idea of switching to your melee because you saw a pack of enemy that you could slice up, you're now stuck either fumbling your blade around in front of them, or spamming Quick Melee (which, depending on the weapon type, can have animation poorly suited for the situation)

-> In Archwing, after Melee'ing someone, it takes about 2-3 seconds for the Warframe to be able to shoot his gun again (EDIT: that's false, see below)

Honestly? It's just making it more worth to simply keep spamming Quick Melee over and over, auto-targetting the nearby enemies, auto-killing them, and never stopping to aim.
If Archwing's ever going to become interesting, it would be if Aiming (and Maneuvers) would be worth the effort.

EDIT: I was wrong. If you have an Archwing Gun equipped and you Quick Melee, you can shoot immediately. I had memories of being stuck fumbling with my gun, here's the situation: when you switch from Archwing Melee to Archwing Gun, and proceed to do a Quick Melee while the Warframe is switching, it resets the "Switch Animation" back to the start, leading to a situation where you can't shoot for 2-3 seconds until you let the animation COMPLETELY finish. Not to mention how slow (yet stylish) weapon switching is in Archwing mode.

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Here are a few of my suggestions to fix those issues:

-> Ping no longer affects weapon switching in any way

That is to say, just like any other maneuvers you're able to perform, it is handled locally first and foremost, then sended over to other players.
Imagine having a 1 second delay everytime you wanted to Bullet Jump... that would be unacceptable. Why is weapon switching left to being crippled by your host's internet connection?

-> Globally increasing Holster Speed by a certain factor

In general, speeding/smoothing things up, no matter what you equip or how you play. However...

-> Also increasing Holster Speed depending on the weapon itself, as a weapon stat akin to Reload Speed or Magazine Size

Before you scream at me, the keyword here is INCREASING: It would be a bad thing to add "Holster Speed Rate" to weapons, only to "balance" fat ones like the Ogris by making them "deliberately slower to switch out" than other weapons. It's already clunky enough to do so. Have a "default rate" of 1.0, where weapons can only be faster than default, never slower.

Now, looking over at secondaries: In general, they're not doing their job as, well, secondaries. Only "slightly worse primaries" for some, or "alternate primaries" for others. Secondaries in general should have faster "Holster Rate" than default. Not necessarily talking about the big secondaries like the Kulstar, Brakk or the Stug. I'm mostly thinking of guns like the Vasto.

I feel like it should have massively increased holster speed as part of the weapon stats itself, because, it would go well with "drawing a revolver like in a Spaghetti Western".

So, it will improve the game in a three ways:
1) Make the single-handed variant more appealing for different playstyles (usually there's nearly no reason to take out a single Vasto over an Akvasto, faster reload speed is not worth giving up on twice the magazine size, which is then further increased by Magazine Capacity mods)
2) Add some flair to certain weapons (not to mention, some form of utility/quality-of-life buff to them)
3) Actually being able to gauge the increased speed when you equip mods like Twitch or Reflex Draw

Speaking of which...

-> Make Twitch, Reflex Draw and Soft Hands (mod drops from Sentients for +200% holster speed) become "Switch weapons instantly"

Now THAT is what I would call "weapon customization". None of that "mandatory mod" crap to be found here.
You like switching weapons in mid-air? You prefer switching weapons over reloading? You want to use your secondary weapon as an actual sidearm?
Equip this mod. If you don't, well, don't.

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Last point: If you've seen the Devstream, you know that there's a new "secondary+melee" stance that Warframe will be able to equip.

Having a one-handed secondary in one hand, and your melee in the other is great, because it SKIPS holstering all together, so...

Why not remove ANY trace of delay when you press the "switch weapons key" altogether?

I know, I know, that's a bit extreme and controversial.

There's melee weapons with special holster animations, and it's cool to see your Venka Prime spring out of your knuckles, but why not keep the animation, but have it freely cancellable? What that means is: you press F to switch weapons, and can shoot/melee instantly with the new weapon without trouble, but if you don't shoot immediately, you get to see the nice animations from start to finish like usual.

Just imagine the damn "user-made combos" skipping Holstering altogether would enable! Firing off a Tonkor grenade from afar, Bullet Jumping in, instantly switching to your Akstilletos, spraying some status around, letting the grenade finish them off, only for you to land, and instantly starting to do Melee Combos on the survivors?

(Though, I will say that bringing up Conclave PvP as a counter-argument to the "no switch delay" suggestion would be a good one... if Conclave was relevant in any way)

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On an unrelated sidenote, if you're using Crouch Toggle, doing a Slide Attack with a Gunblade leave the Warframe crouching instead of making him stand back up like other weapons. That really annoys me. Please look into it.

Thank you for reading my 2 cents. If you have any other good ideas, shoot.

TL;DR: The current Holstering system is crippling every part of the game in some ways, including the newly released Cycron, making it a "bad weapon" even if it is no fault of the weapon itself. And that's terrible.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Noctah

[taiiat]

29 minutes ago, Noctah said:

Ping lag affect weapon switching delay

Melee sheathing

Archwing sheathing

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Globally increasing Weapon Switch Speed by a certain factor

Weapon Switch stat

Make Twitch, Reflex Draw and Soft Hands Switch weapons instantly

 

Make single-handed variants more appealing

You want to use your secondary weapon as an actual sidearm?

obviously Weapon Switching should be handled Client side.

Weapon Sheathing is awful since it can't be interrupted, for sure. the problem is that you can't interrupt it though.
in an Animation Covering fashion, you shouldn't need to complete the Animation to Sheathe your Melee. tl;dr the game will skip the Animation if you interrupt it by doing something else. a non requirement.

same deal for Archwing.

 

having an actual decision to make as to whether you want to Switch Weapons or not, is a good decision. (i know Warframe is generally anti-skill and anti-choice but meh)
making it faster is what Mods related to that are for - yes i know such Mods are eeeh, so the solution is to make them not. +400% Weapon Switch Speed would cover that (divide Weapon Switch time by 4).

it's a touchy area to create this sort of Stat, because it won't go as people dream in their head - the inconsistent Switch time can result in Players can't learn how long it takes to Switch and means fumbling sometimes.
it's... complicated to have a Stat like this.

 

making Single Secondary Weapons more appealing isn't about making new Stats - the problem by large is that the Dual versions of Secondary Weapons are literally just better than Single.
why? because Dual versions tend to get increased Stats - which is f...ing nonsensical. even the same Stats is Powercreep because the game tries to be nice and while you get double the Magazine Capacity, you only get slightly increased Reload Time. which makes sense because super long Reloads are unfun - but if all that's different is double Magazine and slightly higher Reload then it's still a direct upgrade.
so a solution then? well that's about Reload, Accuracy, Stability/Controllability - which for Warframe means faster Reloads, higher Accuracy (we have this already in theory but in play is barely any difference, Duals are almost identically as Accurate as Singles. Singles need higher 'Accuracy' from current and Duals lower for this to work), and lower 'Recoil' & Screen Shake. as well as reinforcing such things in Damage related stats, i.e. higher Crit and/or Status Chances for Singles.

we don't have Sidearms in this game, we haven't for years. before U7 they were definitely Sidearms, and for a bit after we did - but it didn't take long for Secondary Weapons to be equal to (and objectively often superior to) Primary Weapons at all sorts of tasks. that's only continued to happen.
in Warframe, we have two Guns, and a Melee Weapon. the two Guns are not different Tiers from each other - they're just two Guns. not 'this one for most of the time and this one in emergencies' - no, you have two, use either one any time you feel like. just two Guns.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

All I have to say to this is: Yes.

I do not understand why weapon switching is so clunky and slow for a game that's marketed as fast paced. Hell even slower paced games (Halo, Half-Life, CS:GO, Fallout 4 etc.) have incredibly quick weapon swapping, and even strategy games like X-Com and Mordheim allow you to swap weapons without spending a turn/point. So if basically any other action-based game can allow you to swap weapons quickly, why can't Warframe?

[TaylorsContraction]

Sure but the problem is band aids mods.  People have been asking for this since forever. Real soldiers can swap weapons faster than warframes.

Thing is the moment DE moved pvp mods like twitch holster into pve,  they were essentially saying "NO.  You have band aid mods with 200% holster speed,  now shut up about it". Our dream is dead.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Agreed. (Min 1:40) we should be as fast or faster than this when switching weapons...but sadly we are not especially for elite space ninja Warframes, we are slow and clunky..

Few examples of how it should be done correctly from the best of the best.

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Noctah]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

1) having an actual decision to make as to whether you want to Switch Weapons or not, is a good decision. (i know Warframe is generally anti-skill and anti-choice but meh)

 

2) it's a touchy area to create this sort of Stat, because it won't go as people dream in their head - the inconsistent Switch time can result in Players can't learn how long it takes to Switch and means fumbling sometimes.
it's... complicated to have a Stat like this.

 

3) making Single Secondary Weapons more appealing isn't about making new Stats - the problem by large is that the Dual versions of Secondary Weapons are literally just better than Single.

1) In theory, yes, it is "decision making" to choose whether or not to switch weapons, but the thing is that the vulnerability that the current system brings to the player makes it become the same decision 90% : "Nah, it's not worth switching, I'll die before I get the chance to shoot back". It's almost always more worth it to be Bullet Jumping away or spamming Quick Melee, which doesn't bring much variety in playstyle.

Even if DE applied a "weapon switching is now instanteneous" patch to the game, weapon switching would still not be completely overpowered, or "anti-choice", I feel.

 

2) I do agree about the fact that it will be inconsistent, but what would the effect of that be? "Oh, I was ready to shoot my Vasto 0.5 sec earlier than usual, and I didn't shoot right away!" -> Slight inefficiency, that's the extent of the problems it would bring to the player. That is, as long as no weapons are made slower than default. If they did that, then yes, there would be lots of fumbling around, because switching is suddenly much slower than with any other weapon.

 

3) Absolutely. In a game like Warframe, that has a lot of close-range encounters, having lower Accuracy and Reload Speed is completely worth it if you were to gain Magazine Capacity and Fire Rate, since who cares about all of that after you've just cleared the room?

If we were to make Single-handed guns generally faster to holster as a "bonus" stat, that would help with those close-range, critical situations. In general, Speed is good for those moments. If it would take "default time 1.0" to take out your Akvasto, compared to "0.3" for your single Vasto, you might consider the latter.

It might even encourage more Snipers to be used, as you wouldn't be stuck shooting from the hip with them.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Noctah said:

makes it become the same decision 90%
Even if DE applied a "weapon switching is now instanteneous" patch to the game, weapon switching would still not be completely overpowered, or "anti-choice", I feel.

 

2) I do agree about the fact that it will be inconsistent, but what would the effect of that be? "Oh, I was ready to shoot my Vasto 0.5 sec earlier than usual, and I didn't shoot right away!" -> Slight inefficiency, that's the extent of the problems it would bring to the player. That is, as long as no weapons are made slower than default. If they did that, then yes, there would be lots of fumbling around, because switching is suddenly much slower than with any other weapon.

 

If we were to make Single-handed guns generally faster to holster as a "bonus" stat, that would help with those close-range, critical situations. In general, Speed is good for those moments. If it would take "default time 1.0" to take out your Akvasto, compared to "0.3" for your single Vasto, you might consider the latter.
It might even encourage more Snipers to be used, as you wouldn't be stuck shooting from the hip with them.

and if you can switch instantly, then it's the exact opposite and Switching Weapons is always what you choose over not?

the inverse will happen as well - you get used to a different speed and then it isn't ready because it's longer than you're used to.

that doesn't make Single Secondaries actually worth using over Dual though.... because it's still objectively inferior for almost all of them.
i repeat - creating a new Stat isn't the way to fix balance issues.

[Noctah]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

1) and if you can switch instantly, then it's the exact opposite and Switching Weapons is always what you choose over not?

2) the inverse will happen as well - you get used to a different speed and then it isn't ready because it's longer than you're used to.

3) that doesn't make Single Secondaries actually worth using over Dual though.... because it's still objectively inferior for almost all of them.
i repeat - creating a new Stat isn't the way to fix balance issues.

1) Not necessarily. Lots of underused weapons, notably explosives / launchers wouldn't be good to switch TO, but good to switch FROM, so the decision making is different depending on that. Having to reload both of your weapons is also a good drawback, as you can't infinitely switch between the two of them. It's a one-time switch, until you can catch a breather and reload.

2) I get your point, but between having everything slow/default, and having a handful of weapons faster as a thematic bonus at the price of some possible confusions,  I feel that the second option is better. It's on the player to learn the differences between the weapons, whether it's shooting or switching.

3) You're 100% correct. My point isn't really about balancing, moreso about weapon variety and differences in playstyles. A lot of weapons need a serious look at them, notably, the Vasto Prime.

[Noctah]

Here's another observation about Holstering I've made through testing:

- If you want to switch weapons right after shooting, there is a Delay before your Warframe starts Switching Weapons that depends entirely on the Fire Rate of the weapon you just shot.

Here's what I've observed:

I first compared two Automatic Secondaries: the Twin Gremlins with Creeping Bullseye (Fire Rate: 3.20) to the heavily modded Twin Grakatas (Fire Rate: 64.40)
Obviously, the Grakatas wouldn't care if I was shooting or idling, pressing F would instantly start Holstering (albeit with a slow animation if I removed Speed Holster and Streamlined Form)
To my surprise, with the Gremlins, if I were to hold LMB, and interrupt my shooting by pressing F the same way, there wouldn't be much of a noticeable delay before my Warframe would start Holstering, even though the Fire Rate difference is absurdly high. So I decided to go even lower.

The same Grakatas vs Despair with Creeping Bullseye (Fire Rate: 2.63) : I start noticing a little delay with the Despair, if I were to switch right after throwing a knife. If I pressed F in-between two "shots", the delay wouldn't be noticeable at all. I speculate that it is because I was already closer to end the "cooldown" inbetween shots, so I didn't have to wait for it from start to finish. Let's go even slower.

The same Grakatas vs Kulstar with Creeping Bullseye (Fire Rate: 1.28) : This time, the delay between shots is clearly noticeable, and there's no way to "fire a quick shot to crowd control and switch out to my gun to finish them off" like you'd want from an Explosive Secondary weapon.

But what if we went even slower...?

I tried the Vulkar Wraith with Critical Delay and Vile Precision (Fire Rate: 0.420)...

My goodness. When I tried to switch weapons right after shooting it, I had flashbacks of that one time where there was dodgy Host Migration and I was stuck in a mission with a ping of 1200ms. My Warframe was just standing there, doing nothing, as if my button press hadn't even been registered.
I had time to buffer 7 F presses, making my weapon flash its energy colour in my hands as the game was thinking that I was "taking it out of its hidden state on my back", while in reality it hadn't even left my hands.
When the Fire Rate's cooldown was finally over, my Warframe switched weapons in less than 0.3 seconds; ironically, I had equipped all the Holster Speed mods available in the game...

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Conclusion:

It is not optimal / It is punished to strategically switch out of slow weapons, when it is those same slow weapons that would benefit the most out of the player switching. Not to mention that it tricks unexperienced players into thinking "Mmh... My weapon's a bit slow. If someone comes close, I'll switch weapons!" and getting stuck fumbling around because they don't see their Warframe switching weapons, panicking and pressing F multiple times, buffering multiple inputs, and ultimately making the Warframe "switch" back to the weapon the player intended to switch out from.

My suggestion? Removing any interactions between Fire Rate and Weapon Switching, hence making the Warframe start Holstering when the button is pressed, no matter what.

What would that do for the game?
- Removing confusing fumbling situations that could happen to a beginner
- Rewarding instead of punishing quick thinking players that react to an emergency so fast that their weapon didn't even have time to cool down yet
- Rewarding instead of punishing strategizing players that equip a loadout where each weapon complements the other, such as "slow primary, fast backup" (encouraging the use of Snipers, amongst other things)
- Allowing talented players to "Cancel out" of the delay after firing a slower weapon, hence bringing the skill ceiling of the game higher. (doesn't mean much when you can just press 4, I know, but still)
- In general, moving the Switching/Shooting towards a place where it will complement the "smooth yet fast paced" design of Parkour 2.0

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That's about it for now. If I find anything else, I'll post some more.

TL;DR: If you want to switch weapons right after shooting, there is a Delay before your Warframe starts Switching Weapons that depends entirely on the Fire Rate of the weapon you just shot. And that's terrible.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Noctah

[LSG501]

I support any action that improves weapon switching and reloading speeds... especially ones that remove any reliance on the host (needed badly)....would be nice if the doors could have the same treatment too because they get stuck due to potatoes being hosts too.

[Noctah]

Just now, LSG501 said:

I support any action that improves weapon switching and reloading speeds... especially ones that remove any reliance on the host (needed badly)....would be nice if the doors could have the same treatment too because they get stuck due to potatoes being hosts too.

Agreed. And sometimes, even without much lag, they just decide to "stay closed forever", no matter what you try. Been like that since launch, pretty much.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

It needs to be this fast, Dante would totally kick our &#!.

 

Videos showcase the proper weapon swap speeds for a horde shooter..We can do this DE..take all the time you need. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Noctah]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

It needs to be this fast, Dante would totally kick our &#!.

[DMC videos]

Videos showcase the proper weapon swap speeds for a horde shooter..We can do this DE..take all the time you need. 

I remember DE saying that Devil May Cry was an inspiration for their Melee 2.0 system, with all the stance combos.

Wish they would borrow even more from it!

[Noctah]

So, DE buffed Speed Holster's max rank from 3 to 5, making its Holster Speed bonus go from 80% to 120%, while also giving more Mod Capacity.

I appreciate it, but please, don't pretend that this will fix the problem!

For a Dash polarity aura slot, you're almost GUARANTEED that players will choose Energy Siphon or Corrosive Projection, instead of a measly "Holster Speed increase" that has no effect on the unresponsiveness of general weapon switching.

Hopefully, this isn't an attempt at band-aid, and just an unrelated buff of underused auras.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Noctah

[Noctah]

Damn, they unfortunately didn't pick my question on the subject for the devstream.

Have they ever talked about weapon switching on devstream before? I can't remember them doing so. Feels like a very underdiscussed topic. I wonder why — there's plenty to talk about!

I'll resubmit a question in the next devstream for sure.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Noctah

[MJ12]

I agree, weapon switch speeds in this game are atrocious. I'm pretty sure weapons switched faster in deliberate, slow-paced tactical shooters like ArmA and Ghost Recon.

And just from a pure game mechanics perspective, weapons switch in Warframe is slow enough that by the time you finish switching weapons the enemy is probably already dead.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I've never been so frustrated trying to switch between primary and melee during a defense. Its awful and silly. It's time to make holster speed innate!

Edited May 17, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Drejzer]

I wonder why do we have to put away our weapon when we can just use space magic our void powers to de-materialise (or materialise) it at will...

Wait we're already doing that! This skill is known as "Visible When Holstered" turned "off" in weapon appearance...

And yet, it takes so long...

...Maybe because of that skill?

[Noctah]

With the Tennocon announcements, I hope we'll get some Quality Of Life (QOL) improvements to holstering bundled together with it.

My opinion is still the same: I keep feeling there's a lot of wasted potential with the sluggish, unresponsive weapon switching system we currently have. Even a few small tweaks would greatly improve the gameplay.

Good luck the Plains of Eidolon launch, DE, but please don't neglect the basic features as a consequence!

[Azamagon]

Just chiming in to say that I agreed that holstering speeds indeed need to be faster (near instantaneous, is what I prefer).

Btw, good job researching on all the holstering mechanics @Noctah :)

[Navarc]

Sometimes I want to use my melee directly after throwing my spear rather than automatically holstering to secondary and then having to manually holster to melee.
If it was faster or I had the option to do it instant it wouldn't be a problem that secondary is the default and I have no way to change it except unequipping it which cripples me when I actually do need a secondary for something or want to equip the operative with something to stay alive.

I'm all for your idea.

[SirYanako]

YES PLEASE I fully support this. We NEED instant weapon swap because right now it's absolutely unnecessary to have a secondary outside of 1) running out of primary ammo and 2) having something to use while you are down

[Metal_Izanagi]

Yeah, holster speed and mechanics related to it definitely deserves a facelift, if not an entire QoL-focused rework. 

On 4/27/2017 at 5:12 PM, Noctah said:

Before you scream at me, the keyword here is INCREASING: It would be a bad thing to add "Holster Speed Rate" to weapons, only to "balance" fat ones like the Ogris by making them "deliberately slower to switch out" than other weapons. It's already clunky enough to do so. Have a "default rate" of 1.0, where weapons can only be faster than default, never slower.

THIS. This so much will be important for DE to remember if/when they look at holster speed and elements related to it. A rework of an old, outdated mechanic should never come with anything even resembling a "nerf" attached. As Noctah said, the key is to only increase things, not "balance" them by increasing some and decreasing others.

I don't like coming across as accusatory like this considering the work DE puts into Warframe, but time and again I've seen a rework of something have "balance" transate to "We made some of the things that were already mediocre at best even worse than they used to be because these other unrelated or only vaguely related things were buffed." Don't do that, DE. We're tired of it. I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but creative vision and balance really do come second to what your paying customers desire.

[Noctah]

This topic was moved from Weapons Feedback to Art, Animation & UI Feedback, but I'm not sure if it's for the best.

Most of the problems I discussed (and the solutions I proposed) are related to the "Gameplay" side of things, not really the "Art" side, as in it's not about "refining the holstering animations", but moreso about changing up the gameplay flow in the same vein as Parkour 2.0 did.

Still, if that makes my thread end up before the eyes of some DE staff that hadn't seen it before, it's a win in my book.

Whoever's listening out there: I'm counting on you!

 

[Lost_Cartographer]

Yes to addressing the ping -> weapon switch issue, but the slow base switch speeds really are something to be addressed with a mod.  Like our slow default knock down recovery speeds.  If all we had to worry about was increasing the damage on our weapons and the effectiveness of ability spam, then DE might as well strip out the modding system and save us the trouble of switching elemental mods around before heading out into a mission.

All of these "band-aid" mods people recognize but refuse to use on some kind of principle are a testament that the modding system has a functional purpose beyond being an occasional little dopamine kick whenever we rank up our toys.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Littleman88