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Design Council Challenge Discussion and Feedback


MrM1
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11 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

50% success after how many tries? 

Thanks for just asking the question and not ripping my head of instead. I'd say 50% on the first go. There after many people will leave their assumptions behind and come back better equipped, or be carried. It could be made harder still to accentuate the clan aspect of the game. An extra reward for succeeding on the first go might be appropriate, just as long as it's nothing to fancy.

To put it another way, if there's a fair proportion of people venting on the forums, then they got it about right.

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1 hour ago, PakkiTheDog said:

How about instead of meming, hastaging and acting like a 12 year old boy addicted to twitter, you write your counterpoints on the matter in a form of a sentence? What are in your opinion challenges warframe offers us? Sorties? Nop. 5 hour survival? Yes, but nobody got time for that. Index/arena? Not really. What then?

 

If the challenge mission was so easy for some of us than why do you think the mission is so hard on others? DEs fault or your own? People are angry because the game has finally offered them a challenge and they have to retry the mission, like in every other game. So used of one shooting everything.

As it goes for being one shot, they are working on shield gating, also you could try to avoid getting hit or picking a frame that can take that dmg. Also this is a co op game, so you get revived and continuing on.

 

How about, instead of complaining, you man up, use your brain and defeat the Juggsy?

Counterpoint: Your angry rant is not that unlike my position; (aside from my lack of any person insult directed towards your good self.:satisfied:)

Saying that a mediocre encounter, with 900x the Hp, is endgame, is imho lacking perception. (No person insult intended)

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How about, instead of complaining, you man up, use your brain and defeat the Juggsy?

I did, first try; its doable... it's just not fun.

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As it goes for being one shot, they are working on shield gating, also you could try to avoid getting hit or picking a frame that can take that dmg. Also this is a co op game, so you get revived and continuing on

I used the tactic of avoiding/evading getting hit, by taking 'cover' behind a 'solid' wall; a 'solid' wall I was one shot through... wall was fine after too; not a mark #eyebrowsraise.

Also...:satisfied:

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Hey Design council, and DE: How about asking for/building a 120lvl Juggernaut that has weak spots/weak points; so players using skill/skills can accomplish takedowns, (where we could use warframes/weapons/powers to take down something massive?) Like Horizon Zero Dawn cough #repost

giphy-1.gif  

A 120lvl Juggernaut that doesn't one shot from across the map! Through 'solid' objects, or leap through 'solid' walls/objects...

Also I have 47mil and something like 18 Orokin Catalyst's and Orokin Reactor's as well as a number of unbuilt Bp's for Orokin Catalyst's and Orokin Reactor's... js:highfive::satisfied:

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13 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Did you happen to pick Limbo, or did you re-run the mission so you could pick an optimal setup (after finding out the clever twist at the end)?

I use for now Limbo for 90% of the missions

I have 3 builds:

1- Sedna boss Kela  De Thaym (normal built). 4th power to protect the team from the missiles.

2- Interception, mobile defense (max range and duration.. around 85 sec),. spam 2nd and 4th, freeze the whole board.

3- defense, survival, extermination. (Max range and 299% power strength which deals 1200 dmg. duration is only 3 sec). 4th power will kill easily up to level 100 from the first time

I went to the mission with built no 3 without knowing that i will face the juggernaut.

And when i found that my 4th was not hurting him a lot, and i could not melee him because i was in stasis, i said to myself let me try to operator (remembering the kuva mission)

and that was it.

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5 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Saying that a mediocre encounter, with 900x the Hp, is endgame, is imho lacking perception. (No person insult intended)

I did, first try; its doable... it's just not fun.

I used the tactic of avoiding/evading getting hit, by taking 'cover' behind a 'solid' wall; a 'solid' wall I was one shot through... wall was fine after too; not a mark #eyebrowsraise.

It is a start. Starting high lvl enemies and a surprise boss in the end. It was hard, you get one shot (that shield gating will fix in the future), but that is the part of the challenge. You get revived or die and fight him again. When you see he wants to shot, you move far away, or you take a frame that can take it in the first place. Every other game has this.

Now giving the juggernaut health and no invulnerability he'll die faster than some of the players realize he was even here. The buffs and the dmg we can do in this game... Now making spots that you shot of to make him vulnerable for a time is a good idea only for a boss

I guess a challenge is seen differently by some people. Some like it when something is hard, because they feel good when overcoming it, while others see it as a chore.

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25 pages of comments... wow. I stopped at around page 12.

Well, I gotta say that I feel sorry for the first wave of players who did the alert and those who don't visit forums or have friends to tell them what to expect.
I did it in one go because I read forums so I had foreknowledge of what to expect and prepared for it with a right frame. I still find it unfair though for those who had no way of knowing.

The mission tells you on the star chart that it's melee only and high level infested.  That's all.   Posts that say "you should've expected a Juggernaut" are just smugs who feel like looking down on people. We have never had juggernauts spawn in a defense mission before, what reason would we have to start thinking one would spawn now?
Or players who main Nidus or other convenient frames that made it easy and didn't know Juggie would appear:  You were lucky to have had the right frame. That's all.

Imagine a player who saw the mission parameters and decided to play solo with a Loki thinking "That is quite doable, right?  Invisible all the time and protecting a pod with melee weapon."
Suddenly a juggernaut appears after all the time it took to get to wave 10.  Yeah, a lone Loki doesn't stand a chance. You might as well abort and realize you're not getting back the time you spend on those 10 waves before re-trying it again with a right frame. This scenario isn't about challenge or skill anymore, more like a lottery system.  
Did you happen to bring the right frame to beat the boss you had no way of expecting?  no?  You lose!

And using operator beams? really?  You know how long that will take?  And the hassle/luck requirement of positioning Juggie in the right location so it's safe for your operator to hit it without getting murdered? 

I'm not saying the fight is hard or impossible, once you know what you are about to fight.

But relying on a surprise jumpscare-like tactic is not a challenge, that's just cheap difficulty. You happen to have to wrong frame(s), you lose. People won't appreciate having wasted their time like that.

Edited by MystMan
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37 minutes ago, MystMan said:


And using operator beams? really?  You know how long that will take?  And the hassle/luck requirement of positioning Juggie in the right location so it's safe for your operator to hit it without getting murdered? 
 

We beamed the guy for a good five minutes, none of us expected a juggy in a defense mission.

Hell i read it in the wiki that he cant appear on any endless type missions.

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1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

We beamed the guy for a good five minutes, none of us expected a juggy in a defense mission.

Hell i read it in the wiki that he cant appear on any endless type missions.

Yeah, I think we spent 10 minutes beaming him (3 operators; one of us hadn't gotten that far in the game). He'd fire his spines off into some random direction 180 degrees away from us, we'd all die, then we'd come back and get struck by lightning and all die, then we'd come back again and beam him for a few seconds until our beams ran out, etc.

It was going great - he was down to about 60% health, so we'd have had him dead within an hour for sure - but he got bored and smashed the cryopod. 

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3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Hell i read it in the wiki that he cant appear on any endless type missions.

Really? I occasionally fought it in the Derelict Survival, after some time has passed. Maybe the wiki need some updating. Need some screenshot first though. 

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1 minute ago, Gamma745 said:

Really? I occasionally fought it in the Derelict Survival, after some time has passed. Maybe the wiki need some updating. Need some screenshot first though. 

It was in some patch notes too. To make juggy farming less possible they removed him from endless missions.

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44 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It was in some patch notes too. To make juggy farming less possible they removed him from endless missions.

Guess the patch missed the mark. I'll be sure to get a screenshot the next time I see it. Then again, it only appeared once per mission so far...

That being said though, can you give me the link for the Patchnotes that said it's removal? Just curious.

Edited by Gamma745
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After reading through the thread we're seeing a lot of praise for this past Friday's Council alert with equal amounts of concern and frustration. Some of you enjoyed the fight and surprise Juggernaut at the end, others not so much. In contrast to the traditional Gift From the Lotus alert, the Council Challenge should make you sweat a bit (I know I did, "palms sweaty, moms spaghetti" style). As its title suggests, it is a challenge after-all.

That said, we're seeing a lot of unfair blame placed on the Design Council. For transparency sake, the procedure of the Council Challenges goes as follows: Design Council members are given a restricted and specific list of conditions to vote on. Once the poll has closed, the top voted conditions are used to create the alert. The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

At the end of the day, we're happy to see that you're interested in discussing the alerts because it gives us a better idea of how to proceed with them moving forward. Thank you for your feedback as always! 

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Meanwhile I'm sitting in my counselor chair like Palpatine  going "Good, good let the hate flow through you."

I loved this alert and even I had a challenge doing it. But I don't get the complaining being thrown about because it might be too challenging. To be honest we need more alerts like this with a "Boss" at the end. Otherwise we all breeze through too easily.

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23 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

After reading through the thread we're seeing a lot of praise for this past Friday's Council alert with equal amounts of concern and frustration. Some of you enjoyed the fight and surprise Juggernaut at the end, others not so much. In contrast to the traditional Gift From the Lotus alert, the Council Challenge should make you sweat a bit (I know I did, "palms sweaty, moms spaghetti" style). As its title suggests, it is a challenge after-all.

That said, we're seeing a lot of unfair blame placed on the Design Council. For transparency sake, the procedure of the Council Challenges goes as follows: Design Council members are given a restricted and specific list of conditions to vote on. Once the poll has closed, the top voted conditions are used to create the alert. The Juggernaut was not something the Design Council had control over, or were even aware of until the alert went live. 

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

At the end of the day, we're happy to see that you're interested in discussing the alerts because it gives us a better idea of how to proceed with them moving forward. Thank you for your feedback as always! 

I enjoyed the surprise! Broke up the monotony.  Ty

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27 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

To be fair, on any other day a level 100 Infested defense mission is a breeze for many of you, so a surprise visit from the ol' Juggy was an appropriate addition to really crank up the heat. However, we understand that the liberties we took with this alert might of been a bit of a shock to the system for the community and the Design Council in light of the other conditions present in the alert.

 

The Mission was a breeze, only the Juggernaut was a bit tougher and fun. 

Without the Juggernaut, it would have been way too easy and boring.

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personally, i was bloody shocked by juggernaunt cuz first thought in my head

"awww crapbaskets he gona destroy the pod" but suprisingly he only targeted us (intended?) all in all it was funny suprise ^.^

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I personally liked the alert itself. The issue is that you go from basically oneshotting enemies to an enemy that receives 0 damage and constantly falls off the map, respawning god knows where. You had to go into the mission with specific frames. "Fight cheese with cheese" basically

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My issue with it was the fact that it was a melee only defense.  And he is next to impervious to melee weapons.  What we ended up doing was Ember, Ash, And Valkyr to beat it.  With 2 out of 3 of those using instant revives.  A different modifier would have been fine in my eyes.  But again,  He is next to impervious to melee weapons.

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For all of those saying "do this do that". Yes, we (at least I) know the alert was possible, we did it, we got the potato. It was also freaking boring, 20 minutes dealing low damage until it dies. That is not a challange, that is boring.

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47 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

-snip-

Thank you for the update and transparency clause.

Although I enjoyed the Juggy-in-a-Box surprise and have no issue with the challenge, the fight does bring a bit of attention to the "cheesiness" of the Jug itself, specifically it's 99% insta-gib on most frames through walls. I have no issue with the insta-gib part, but allow that attack to auto-target and go practically THRU walls/obstacles/barriers, etc. is cheese. He has enough attacks that are dangerous at high level such as the massive ground goo AoE and toxic spores rain. He doesn't need a cheese "infinite" punch-through spine attack.

Edited by (PS4)A_SimpleName
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52 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Thank you for your feedback as always! 

The alert was mostly fine. Fairly easy, even, (on your second run,) barring the surprise ending.
The main (and huge) problem with it was combining a 'weakpoint only' enemy with a restriction to weapon-types that are explicitly incapable of targeting.

Kind of like a melee only Lephantis kill if he were actually dangerous.
Because Juggy's ridiculously bugged dangerous.


The thing I was expecting, and was thrilled to see didn't become an issue, was Juggy to focus on the defense target, and due to us not having agro tools, and his being unsucceptible to mez, gibbing it with a shotgun blast.

Edited by Chroia
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My biggest issue is that there was a Catalyst attached to it.

If it had just been a gimmicky challenge put up for those who have nothing better to do to than to test themselves against it, with no rewards aside from credits and affinity and maybe some endo (maybe even large amounts of all three), I wouldn't have had a problem.  I'd have run it once, saw the Juggernaut at the end, and went 'nah, not worth the effort' and left it alone.  Wouldn't even have felt bad, since all the rewards are things obtainable elsewhere with some grinding, and probably would've had much better opinions to share about it on the forums.

But then you basically attach 20 plat to it.  Catalysts and Reactors are among the most valuable items in Warframe, especially for those who are trying to gear up for sorties.  You don't dangle a reward that valuable in front of everyone for 24 hours straight, and attach it to a mission that is a straight-up uber-high-level gimmick run.  I'd be willing to bet that, more than anything, is the real reason why a lot of us were bitter regarding this alert.  It's certainly what ticked me off the most.  Most of the people who are geared well enough to do this alert don't even need more catalysts or reactors, so the actual reward is probably collecting dust in peoples' foundries.  Those who actually need it either had to be carried or just went without.

I've killed a lot of juggernauts.  Some of them extremely high level.  But 120 is at least 38 levels higher than the highest juggernaut I've ever seen, let alone killed.  On top of that, I've never killed a juggernaut with a melee weapon.  The rest of the mission was an interesting challenge, and had it just been level 120 melee only infested defense without the juggernaut at the end, or if I'd had access to my ranged weaponry so that I could use my typical juggernaut-fighting tactics, I'd probably have completed the alert first try and been happy with it.

But it wasn't, and what MystMan said earlier is absolutely true, along with Chroia's post directly above mine.

Edited by Arkvold
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