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Events and being punished for having inactive clan members.


TrouNoir
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So based on what I heard in the dev stream, it sounds like the upcoming Ambulas event is going to be another one that punishes clans that have inactive members. This wasn't always the philosophy DE used when calculating scores for things like dojo statues and rewards, but it seems to be the trend now. In past events it was usually possible for dedicated players to take the slack and make up for those who were unable to participate, but that has not been the case recently.

What I want to know is; why? What's the motivation to force Warlords like myself to downsize clans and kick inactive members because they might not have been able to play for a few weeks, or less skilled members who can't score as high as we need them to? In what way does this make the game more fun or accessible? 

As a Warlord what I'm essentially forced to do is corral my Tenno and force them to play when it might not be convenient for them, or they just might not want to, under threat of being kicked from the community. I also have to force less skilled clan members to do missions that are beyond their abilities which isn't fun for them. This makes the game a chore, it makes it a second job, you take away the agency of the player and say "you must play on this day or you will be punished". My clan is built around helping new players learn the ropes and so we have a lot of low MR members, but we have a very dedicated core of high ranked Tenno who make up the force that usually tackles things like events and sorties. In the past that worked out fine but notably in the Pacifism Defect we had to scramble to get even the lower tier rewards. I feel like we're being punished for trying to foster a welcoming and laid back community. 

I don't believe that someone should be kicked and made to lose access to their dojo and research, their clan friends, their ranks and privileges, just because they were away for a month. Interest in games wanes and sometimes people just need to take a break for a while. Upon returning after an absence, eager to try out a new Warframe or update, they find themselves kicked from their clan with no way to get back in touch with their friends. Not fun. 

In order to "prepare my clan for the event" as they so ominously stated on the stream, I will likely have to kick 144 people from my clan who aren't active enough or who can't contribute. I would rather just not do that, and not get the rewards, but that shouldn't be a choice that I have to make. 

I implore DE to go back to the way events used to work, set scores to reach based on clan tier, not based on number of active players or averages of scores or whatever else. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking to have a non-competitive clan made competitive, or to make the highest tiers of rewards easily accessible, but at least give us the possibility of putting in the effort to reach those scores that are meant for far more active clans through effort.

If we have to reach a score meant for ten times the players that we currently have active, then give us the chance to put in ten times the effort, we've done it before and we can continue to do it. 

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What DE is trying to do with these events is to revitalize the clans and make them something more than a second market where people just go for the research. There's no point in calling it a Clan Event if Clan involvement is not necessary and one person out of 100 can do the task alone. 

Edited by aligatorno
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9 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

What DE is trying to do with these events is to revitalize the clans and make them something more than a second market where people just go for the research. There's no point in calling it a Clan Event if Clan involvement is not necessary and one person out of 100 can do the task alone. 

How does forcing Warlords to cut off low MR players who can't contribute revitalize the clans? It makes them smaller and less inclusive. Clans are a community of players who play together and socialize, they never stopped being that at any point, the changes to clan events are making it so that we can't do that anymore if we want to participate in events. We have to choose between the members of the community that we've built and getting the rewards.

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4 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I have friends in my clan from way back before my warframe days. DE basically tells me to kick them out because they dont have time to play a lot right now in order to have better chances at the event...

It'snot just inactive players either.

Let's say I have 250 clan members in my Mountain clan, and I want to downsize to 100 in order to have a better chance at getting event rewards. 

Well guess who has to go? All of the youngest and least experienced players who can't contribute and who are probably only in the clan to learn the ropes and get help. We have to apply survival of the fittest to our clans and punish the weakest members. 

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2 minutes ago, TrouNoir said:

How does forcing Warlords to cut off low MR players who can't contribute revitalize the clans? It makes them smaller and less inclusive. Clans are a community of players who play together and socialize, they never stopped being that at any point, the changes to clan events are making it so that we can't do that anymore if we want to participate in events. We have to choose between the members of the community that we've built and getting the rewards.

Lol, cutting low MR players?

My MR7 freebie alt hasn't even finished the star chart and has a poor build on most everything.

But using the starting Excalibur I did the DC challenge and was the main damage dealer.

Low MR players can be 3 year vets that just never ranked up.

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9 minutes ago, TrouNoir said:

How does forcing Warlords to cut off low MR players who can't contribute revitalize the clans? It makes them smaller and less inclusive. Clans are a community of players who play together and socialize, they never stopped being that at any point, the changes to clan events are making it so that we can't do that anymore if we want to participate in events. We have to choose between the members of the community that we've built and getting the rewards.

This is mostly a preparation for the Kingpin System most likely. Some planning ahead is needed when it comes to clans, if you fill your clan to the top without regard to how they can contribute in such events it's mostly on you. I understand that before it was something else, but it has been a while since the Pacifism Defect and people had some time to adjust to the new way things work. 

 

A Clan Event implies Clan involvement, while at first they kinda misfired on the requirements, the revised requirements for PD were more than decent. With the Ambulas one most likely they'll keep the same strategy in mind. 

Edited by aligatorno
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Two options. One, stop caring. So you don't place on some leader boards that increase your e-peen, big deal. Two: Just don't participate? Some folks, like me, just make a clan to literally get the research, nothing else, since some good stuff is gated behind the research labs, like the Anku, Grattler, Ignis, Mios, etc. And by good stuff I mean stuff I want to use. I have yet to actually see anything interesting be done with clans or even have DE offer anything I care for.

Edited by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4
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8 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Lol, cutting low MR players?

My MR7 freebie alt hasn't even finished the star chart and has a poor build on most everything.

But using the starting Excalibur I did the DC challenge and was the main damage dealer.

Low MR players can be 3 year vets that just never ranked up.

If I take on a new player a week before an event, and when it comes around he's MR3 with a Karak and a Rhino, how is he supposed to contribute to an endless event mission with level 80 enemies? It's impossible, and him not scoring is a detriment to the clan, so I'm encouraged to let that guy fend for himself rather than welcoming him into a community of people who can help him.

8 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

This is mostly a preparation for the Kingpin System most likely. Some planning ahead is needed when it comes to clans, if you fill your clan to the top without regard to how they can contribute in such events it's mostly on you. I understand that before it was something else, but it has been a while since the Pacifism Defect and people had some time to adjust to the new way things work. 

The Kingpin system is great, that is something that will revitalize clans, because it gives people a reason to participate beyond the threat of being kicked if they don't. 

8 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Two options. One, stop caring. So you don't place on some leader boards that increase your e-peen, big deal. Two: Just don't participate? Some folks, like me, just make a clan to literally get the research, nothing else, since some good stuff is gated behind the research labs, like the Anku, Grattler, Ignis, Mios, etc. And by good stuff I mean stuff I want to use

Well that's you, I made my clan to be a community, and these events are disrupting the community that we've spent years building.

Edited by TrouNoir
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I wouldn't mind it as much if the clan research for event weaps wasn't locked behind leaderboard placement. If anything, that should be the second tier with a fixed score requirement like the bp, with full weap w/ catalyst being the top 10% reward. Research exclusivity only gives another thing for clans to need if they want to bring in new people. It already happens with Hema and Ignis Wraith: People simply don't want to join your clan if you don't have them.

 

Either that, or the Kingpin system needs to give us ways to access this exclusive research.

Edited by Mastercontrol98
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11 minutes ago, TrouNoir said:

Well that's you, I made my clan to be a community, and these events are disrupting the community that we've spent years building.

How so? Events are always optional. For example, when a Fomorian shows up. I could just sit out and there'd still be enough people doing them to destroy the Fomorian. A lot of people would do them for the Imperator Vandal, but after getting 1 BP and 9 barrels and no receiver I didn't even bother with the last one. Or Pacifism Defect. Mostly, I couldn't compete because I was still in the tutorial at the time because I had to completely start over, but at the same time everything I heard about how boring and buggy it was also turned me off of it. And personally I don't like how Wraith weapons look/ are uncolorable so I don't really care for the Ignis Wraith either. I'm still waiting for the day when DE changes punch through to only affect enemies, while I love my Ignis I hate how cheap I feel when I use it to toast enemies through walls, even if I didn't intend to.

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Just now, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

How so? Events are always optional. For example, when a Fomorian shows up. I could just sit out and there'd still be enough people doing them to destroy the Fomorian. A lot of people would do them for the Imperator Vandal, but after getting 1 BP and 9 barrels and no receiver I didn't even bother with the last one. Or Pacifism Defect. Mostly, I couldn't compete because I was still in the tutorial at the time because I had to completely start over, but at the same time everything I heard about how boring and buggy it was also turned me off of it. And personally I don't like how Wraith weapons look/ are uncolorable so I don't really care for the Ignis Wraith either. I'm still waiting for the day when DE changes punch through to only affect enemies, while I love my Ignis I hate how cheap I feel when I use it to toast enemies through walls, even if I didn't intend to.

Basically you're saying that you don't care about events, but I clearly do or I wouldn't have made the thread to begin with. As Warlord it is my job to make sure that I provide my community with the best possible chance to get these rewards and items, I'm not asking to be in the top ten, I'm not asking for a gold dojo statue, just a fair chance to qualify for rewards like the Ignis Wraith, which we barely managed to qualify for last time due to the changes to event scoring. People like you should be free to opt out if they aren't interested in those items, but if you were in my clan I would be forced to either make you play or kick you so that the people who did want them would have a better chance. 

Right now DE is making kicking people and splitting my community the most effective way to do that. 

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wholeheartedly agree.

being warlord of a clan consisting mostly of casual real life friends i find this trend to be alarming, too. why should you be extra awarded for being in an active clan? being in an active clan IS an advantage itself already. one could argue that the management takes effort but that only applies to warlords so what gives? i don't want to throw out my real life friends for petty loot, neither do i want to abandon these halls that i've build from the ground up (we got everything researched... well, except the ignis wraith) with all its fond memories to be able to keep on top MR- / gear-wise.

if clans want to compete that's cool, but don't make it mandatory to be able to achieve MR relevant gear / stuffs that directly and exclusively enhance individual game progress. dark sectors were ok because they meant a bonus for the holding clans, but nothing one couldn't make up solo by dedicated play. similarly leaderboards are a way to show your clan's e-peen while leaving other players unaffected.

please DE. revitalizing clans is a swell ambition but don't punish casual clan / solo players for it. my plea would be to leave clan relevant awards within their own sphere. exclusive research means a potential plat revenue edge with i find to be unfair, stuff like leaderboards / clan statues / fashion accessories sporting your clan logo or the like however are ok in my book.

please.

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1 minute ago, TrouNoir said:

Basically you're saying that you don't care about events, but I clearly do or I wouldn't have made the thread to begin with. As Warlord it is my job to make sure that I provide my community with the best possible chance to get these rewards and items, I'm not asking to be in the top ten, I'm not asking for a gold dojo statue, just a fair chance to qualify for rewards like the Ignis Wraith, which we barely managed to qualify for last time due to the changes to event scoring. People like you should be free to opt out if they aren't interested in those items, but if you were in my clan I would be forced to either make you play or kick you so that the people who did want them would have a better chance. 

Right now DE is making kicking people and splitting my community the most effective way to do that. 

Then maybe you should talk to your people instead. You're their Warlord, start acting like one. If they don't like it, gtfo. If you're the leader, sometimes you have to make tough choices, and people either respect that or end up on the wrong side of a Soma. You kinda put yourself in that situation, wanting to help new players is good, but at the same time they also have to realize that they are low MR and may not be able to participate, and even if they do get something may not be able to use it for a year or more.

At this point, DE is just being DE, if we all carry on about our business as usual or talk about it on the forums maybe they'll realize that they're going about it the wrong way again and change it

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1 minute ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Then maybe you should talk to your people instead. You're their Warlord, start acting like one. If they don't like it, gtfo. If you're the leader, sometimes you have to make tough choices, and people either respect that or end up on the wrong side of a Soma. You kinda put yourself in that situation, wanting to help new players is good, but at the same time they also have to realize that they are low MR and may not be able to participate, and even if they do get something may not be able to use it for a year or more.

At this point, DE is just being DE, if we all carry on about our business as usual or talk about it on the forums maybe they'll realize that they're going about it the wrong way again and change it

It's only a game. It's supposed to be fun, we are not a competitive clan and we should not have to become one in order to qualify for basic rewards. I've never played any other game that encouraged me to essentially ban members of my community to increase our odds of getting rewards, the very idea is absurd and counterproductive. I've run EVE Online fleets so I know a thing or two about managing players and keeping people oriented, but this isn't that kind of game. It's a coop horde shooter, not an e-sport. 

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3 minutes ago, TrouNoir said:

It's only a game. It's supposed to be fun, we are not a competitive clan and we should not have to become one in order to qualify for basic rewards. I've never played any other game that encouraged me to essentially ban members of my community to increase our odds of getting rewards, the very idea is absurd and counterproductive. I've run EVE Online fleets so I know a thing or two about managing players and keeping people oriented, but this isn't that kind of game. It's a coop horde shooter, not an e-sport. 

Has there been any mention on what people are supposed to even get for the Ambulas Event?

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1 minute ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Has there been any mention on what people are supposed to even get for the Ambulas Event?

kind of. they showed a bit in the most recent devstream, #91. they also said that there will be a vandal weapon, but withheld the name of the weapon, which is understandable.

 

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20 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

 

being warlord of a clan consisting mostly of casual real life friends i find this trend to be alarming, too. why should you be extra awarded for being in an active clan? being in an active clan IS an advantage itself already.

This can easily be turned around. Why should the ones that don't/can't/won't participate at the event be equally rewarded in comparison to the ones who put work into it? 

Edited by aligatorno
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6 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

kind of. they showed a bit in the most recent devstream, #91. they also said that there will be a vandal weapon, but withheld the name of the weapon, which is understandable.

 

3 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Just a new vandal weapon which will be on the personal participate level as normal.

Depends on what it is then I suppose, a free weapon slot is always nice. I just hate the Corpus aesthetic when it comes to their weapons and their ugly box faces. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was a Vandal Spectra?

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Just now, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Depends on what it is then I suppose, a free weapon slot is always nice. I just hate the Corpus aesthetic when it comes to their weapons and their ugly box faces. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was a Vandal Spectra?

quite. it'd have to have all its stats buff significantly to really be worth using more than as mr fodder

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15 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

This can easily be turned around. Why should the ones that don't/can't/won't participate at the event be equally rewarded in comparison to the ones who put work into it? 

i don't think any clan is 100% active all of the time and manageable to achieve a perfectly even distribution of effort from all its members, within this line of thinking some degree of injustice is unavoidable really. one of the reasons i don't really think the concept of clan events is a good idea at all...

anyway personally i wouldn't mind being the main contributor of my clan in the least, i just happen to enjoy the game more than the other guys. if this compensation is achievable by humane means i'm noone to chicken out but in the case of the ignis research that meant playing the mission 3 hours consecutively while pretty much pressing a single button over and over and after an attempt that failed after around 50% thanks to a dc i just couldn't bring myself to try it again. that started to feel like work.

Edited by Kotsender_Quasimir
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3 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

i don't think any clan is 100% active and manageable to achieve a perfect even distribution of effort from all its members, within this line of thinking some degree of injustice is unavoidable really. one of the reasons i don't really think the concept of clan events is a good idea at all...

anyway personally i wouldn't mind being the main contributor of my clan in the least, i just happen to enjoy the game more than the other guys. if this compensation is achievable by humane means i'm noone to chicken out but in the case of the ignis research that meant playing the mission 3 hours consecutively while pretty much pressing a single button over and over and after an attempts that failed after around 50% thanks to a dc i just couldn't bring myself to try it again. that started to feel like work.

Those requirements are not meant for 100% participation though.  The first batch was for 50% for Pacifism Defect, the revision was for 20-30% participation I think. I don't think it's much of DE to ask at most 30% clan participation. The Ignis Wraith BP was very easy to obtain. The other two only were a bit trickier, but totally doable.  

 

It most likely be the same in this case as well. But since we will get a new token system , who knows how it will function. 

Edited by aligatorno
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6 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

I don't think it's much of DE to ask at most 30% clan participation.

i presume you are part of an active clan so this doesn't seem much to you and that's ok, just different perspectives really. like i said, all i'm asking for is, desregarding the particular degree of clan participation / effort, to leave the awards within a clan relevant sphere.

edit:

6 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

The Ignis Wraith BP was very easy to obtain.

yeah well but only after a big community moan. similar to this one ;).

i see how the research is a difficult case. on one had research does sound like a clan relevant prize alright but the fact that the bps were tradeable made it profitable on an idividual level. sure, lots of kind people are giving those out for free, but this generosity shouldn't be taken for granted.

Edited by Kotsender_Quasimir
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I co-own a ghost clan of about 5 people, all of whom are my friends IRL (I have other friends, but they're either uninterested in the game, or in other clans). Of them, one is rarely online (but still plays enough to warrant a spot), one is low MR, and one doesn't even have a computer to play the game on.

So if this event is anything like the last one, we'll have only 2 or 3 players trying to keep up with a scoring threshold that is balanced around 10.

We can't downsize, we can't recruit (as said before, this is a friends-only clan), so what can we do?

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