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Heat damage should have a scaling AOE effect


Xekrin
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The premise is fairly simple.  Put two flames together and what happens?  They merge into a bigger flame.  Add more sources of flame and they merge and grow, increasing in intensity, heat produced and light emitted.

Now what happens if you hit something with a weapon using heat that does 10 base damage?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.  Hit it with another source of heat doing 500 base damage, what happens?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.

Quote

Heat b Heat status procs don't stack the way Toxin b Toxin and Slash b Slash procs do. Instead, a Heat proc applied while another Heat proc is already in effect will refresh the initial heat proc's duration and re-apply the panic effect without changing its damage per second.

This is ridiculous.


Suggestion

  • Refreshing a heat proc will overwrite any lower damage values
  • Heat procs will combine and with each new source, the flames increase in size
  • after x procs combine, it will gain the ability to spread to enemies with 2 meters, igniting them for half the duration and/or half the damage, every 2nd additional proc increases this effect by 1 meter.
  • Heat procs active with close proximity to one another (2 ignited enemies with 3 meters of each other), will merge and combine damage, refresh duration and stack procs as indicated above.

Fire is one of the most destructive forces known to us in real life, and yet in Warframe it is kind of a joke.

Heat is a great source of CC but unless you are Ember (or stealth melee, maybe), it is not the greatest form of damage.  Let's find a way to change that in the future.

Disclaimer

Spoiler

Indicated values are an example and a suggestion.  Don't get hung up on details, they can obviously change.

 

Edited by Xekrin
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i don't dislike more interesting mechanics but adding extra (more powerful) features to a Damage Type can't be just done willy nilly, it has to be in context of the other Damage Types. (we have enough issues as it is with Damage Types)
Fire Status works on everything already so there aren't exactly holes in the Damage Type.

however, for consistency sake Fire Status should obviously stack.

8 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Refreshing a heat proc will overwrite any lower damage values

(it already does that)

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20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't dislike more interesting mechanics but adding extra (more powerful) features to a Damage Type can't be just done willy nilly

Few suggestions worth doing would be done willy nilly, it would obviously require a lot of content being revised, namely Ember's abilities, and environmental hazards.

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

(it already does that)

Then the wiki entry is incorrect and should be edited.  The one I quoted above indicates it does not already do that.

Edited by Xekrin
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I had some thoughts on improving status as well. Specifically, adding interactions between status effects to help out single-element status.

For instance, Heat procs inflicted on an enemy suffering Gas cause an eruption that consumes the remaining total damage of the Gas DoT and adds it to each tick of resulting Heat proc on all enemies in range. This helps mitigate Heat's inability to penetrate shields, and provides good CC.

Inflicting Cold on an enemy affected by Viral causes it to snap-freeze (in cases where an enemy is gradually frozen, like with Glaxion, the freeze rate would be accelerated in addition to the aforementioned interaction). Obviously this wouldn't work with cold-based powers; only procs from weapons. Frost is powerful enough already.

Toxin inflicted on an enemy suffering from Corrosive would increase the Toxin DoT by 20% per instance of Corrosive. Five Corrosive procs would increase the Toxin DoT by 100%. The effect applies to individual ticks, so it can occur when Corrosive is procced on top of Toxin procs already in progress.

Notice how I chose status effects that can't be combined on a single weapon. That's deliberate. Stuff like that would be really cool and give squadmates another way to orchestrate their loadout, and further incentivize using your whole loadout rather than sticking with one weapon for a whole mission. Plus, imagine using that Gas/Heat interaction and tell me that doesn't excite you. Boom.

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32 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Stuff like that would be really cool and give squadmates another way to orchestrate their loadout

Beautiful idea.

Maybe heat should remain unable to stack, but a heat proc on one enemy deals damage just like the other DoT's to everyone in a 5m radius.

Possible but I was trying to avoid making it a mock copy of gas procs.  Still a pretty good idea though.

Edited by Xekrin
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15 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I had some thoughts on improving status as well. Specifically, adding interactions between status effects to help out single-element status.

For instance, Heat procs inflicted on an enemy suffering Gas cause an eruption that consumes the remaining total damage of the Gas DoT and adds it to each tick of resulting Heat proc on all enemies in range. This helps mitigate Heat's inability to penetrate shields, and provides good CC.

Inflicting Cold on an enemy affected by Viral causes it to snap-freeze (in cases where an enemy is gradually frozen, like with Glaxion, the freeze rate would be accelerated in addition to the aforementioned interaction). Obviously this wouldn't work with cold-based powers; only procs from weapons. Frost is powerful enough already. Inflicting cold on targets taking viral damage should make them more ill. Create a cloud of viruses maybe?

Toxin inflicted on an enemy suffering from Corrosive would increase the Toxin DoT by 20% per instance of Corrosive. Five Corrosive procs would increase the Toxin DoT by 100%. The effect applies to individual ticks, so it can occur when Corrosive is procced on top of Toxin procs already in progress.

Notice how I chose status effects that can't be combined on a single weapon. That's deliberate. Stuff like that would be really cool and give squadmates another way to orchestrate their loadout, and further incentivize using your whole loadout rather than sticking with one weapon for a whole mission. Plus, imagine using that Gas/Heat interaction and tell me that doesn't excite you. Boom.

These sound pretty good.

I had some ideas for modifying some of the base damage types.

Heat should slowly spread across enemies. When you inflict a second heat effect on the target any enemy close to it (1m) will catch fire for 50% of the damage. Similar spread mechanic as volts 1, as the jumps increase the damage decreases and dies out.

Cold, should freeze enemies. When they take multiple cold procs (min 3) they should freeze temporarly.

Electricity, should create small magnetic anomalies on a target. Jamming their weapons or slowing them down if they dont have any.

Magnetic, should react violently to electricity. Knocking down the target and doubling electric damage for a sec.

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Stackable dots like toxin or slash do no CC, while CC effects like cold and electric do no dots.

I could only see stackable fire dots as a replacement for the current World on Fire, removing the damage(or most of it) to tune it down at lower levels to how it works at higher levels where it is still very effective for damage and CC if you disable protections like armor, auras or shields with other status effects from your weapons. Otherwise it would be just better then toxin because it does CC as well and better then slash on specific weapons that can take away armor quickly, where it is already vastly superior.

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1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Stackable dots like toxin or slash do no CC, while CC effects like cold and electric do no dots.

My idea for heat would not stack like toxin or slash, the damage would not increase only the aoe effect applied through multiple applications.

Ignis would be probably be insane but it pretty much is already anyway.  It would also not remove armor, although a nice thought to be sure, fire would have to be very hot to do so.  Perhaps with enough applications, maybe.  To expect a heat proc that only does 20 damage per tick to also remove armor is pretty far-fetched even for space magic.  At least for me.

 

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Well why would fire need that?

Fire on it's own does have the image of bad scaling because it is much stronger affected by some scaling defences in the game then other elements what produces the common opinion that it is only good till L40 with AOE weapons. However used in combination with other scaling multipliers(accelerant, crits, head shots, primed bane mods etc.) it is very powerful at high levels while also providing good CC and it is plain fantastic on status weapons that remove the defences that create the problems with high level enemy units while at the same time doing incredible good damage and CC better then other choices.

While most people think of the Ignis or Atomos when it comes to fire damage, I for example as somebody that mains Ember since years next to never use them because it is not not necessary all what you can do with fire damage.

 

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1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

However used in combination with other scaling multipliers(accelerant, crits, head shots, primed bane mods etc.) it is very powerful at high levels

You forgot nova's MP, mirage, rhino and banshee, if not more.  Pretty much any weapon or damage type can shine with the right combination of perfect shots, abilities and mods all working in concert.

With enough effort behind me I can use gas damage and Saryn against armored grineer/corrupted to amazing effect while gas alone is essentially useless against armor unless you rely on finisher damage with melee.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Well why would fire need that?

Heat by itself is nothing more than CC in most cases and my personal opinion is that is a sad place for something as destructive as fire to be.

Hell, what I'm proposing actually increases the CC of it exponentially, making it scale without the need for certain weapons or specific frame combinations.  Somehow that's a bad thing?

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22 hours ago, Xekrin said:

The premise is fairly simple.  Put two flames together and what happens?  They merge into a bigger flame.  Add more sources of flame and they merge and grow, increasing in intensity, heat produced and light emitted.

Now what happens if you hit something with a weapon using heat that does 10 base damage?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.  Hit it with another source of heat doing 500 base damage, what happens?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.

This is ridiculous.


Suggestion

  • Refreshing a heat proc will overwrite any lower damage values
  • Heat procs will combine and with each new source, the flames increase in size
  • after x procs combine, it will gain the ability to spread to enemies with 2 meters, igniting them for half the duration and/or half the damage, every 2nd additional proc increases this effect by 1 meter.
  • Heat procs active with close proximity to one another (2 ignited enemies with 3 meters of each other), will merge and combine damage, refresh duration and stack procs as indicated above.

Fire is one of the most destructive forces known to us in real life, and yet in Warframe it is kind of a joke.

Heat is a great source of CC but unless you are Ember (or stealth melee, maybe), it is not the greatest form of damage.  Let's find a way to change that in the future.

Disclaimer

  Reveal hidden contents

Indicated values are an example and a suggestion.  Don't get hung up on details, they can obviously change.

 

So then four Amber's can run as a team and trivialize missions even more then they do now?

It's a game. Balance trumps anything else.

Edited by DSpite
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48 minutes ago, DSpite said:

So then four Amber's can run as a team and trivialize missions even more then they do now?

If 4 Embers already trivialize missions how would a bit more make any difference?  Ember isn't the only user of fire, btw, and this is a general concept, keep that in mind.  Developers are quite capable of restricting and / or revising mechanics to make for a better balanced experience.

Not that I have any fear of that anyway, with Resonating Banshee already trivializing missions and it doesn't even require four of them!  The other three players just twiddle their thumbs.


If you or anyone else sees something wrong with my idea, a better way to contribute to the discussion would be to suggest improvements or modifications of your own rather than commenting only to make my efforts seem worthless.

Thanks.

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On 1.5.2017 at 4:12 PM, Xekrin said:

You forgot nova's MP, mirage, rhino and banshee, if not more.  Pretty much any weapon or damage type can shine with the right combination of perfect shots, abilities and mods all working in concert.

With enough effort behind me I can use gas damage and Saryn against armored grineer/corrupted to amazing effect while gas alone is essentially useless against armor unless you rely on finisher damage with melee.

It is just what you can use on your own or on a fire based frame like Ember. With mprime, roar and sonar you could buff it further, however you for the most part only need one buff to really make it powerful enught to blow through sortis.

Gas works very good on Saryn vs armored grenier, it is the far better option then toxic even at sorti levels, given that stuff dies to quick anyway and the gas proc gives you another 5m of reach on your AOE weapons compared to toxin.

hTJd1De.jpg

This is what levelling a primed reach status modded gas mios with Saryn in a syndicate L35 grenier interception looks like, the Ember even given up on WoF and you can not even keep up a melee counter like this, since you simply non stop run out of targets on the hole map, similar as you had issues with that on Drako back in the days. :awkward:

Fully solo melee build for L100+, however you use corrosive against armor for the procs(because it is the highest scaling defence), given the range and duration on spore is not that great in a melee build and your 3 adds the toxic you need for spore anyway.

On 1.5.2017 at 4:12 PM, Xekrin said:

Heat by itself is nothing more than CC in most cases and my personal opinion is that is a sad place for something as destructive as fire to be.

Hell, what I'm proposing actually increases the CC of it exponentially, making it scale without the need for certain weapons or specific frame combinations.  Somehow that's a bad thing?

Well it already does more damage then electric and cold with the dot. Increasing the CC component would just make it plain better then cold(that could need a mini ice wave impedance of like 5m around the proc to work as reliable with any weapon as it does with stuff like the Torid) and electric. It also does bonus damage to all kinds of flesh, the reason why corrosive/heat works universal great in the void and is often the preferred modding.

us7CMMQ.jpg

TtPTMmo.jpg

This is what you can do with heat damage, status and a shotgun that most people complain about that it does not have the crit, the damage, to little range and to much spread and next to everybody consider useless next to her Tigris prime(while you can kill that L97 bombard in 1.5s, it would kill a L200 bombard in the same 1.5s, similar to any weapon where you line up status and heat damage correctly, since it will scale incredible linear), on a frame that nobody wants to solo with at high levels because apparently it is heat based and has massive issues with damage at higher levels. I for myself with Ember do not even realize the difference between kuva flood and normal because outside the amount of kuva and getting one hit killed occasionally in the L100 version there is non if your really utilize heat to the full potential. :shocked:

This is not because heat is incredible overpowered to everything else, but because it scales incredible well once you remove the issue that it does not scale well vs various defences by removing that defences with status(running around with a 500% damage buff on your frame all the time might also help).  Also yes, it is a solo extra armor L100 sorti survival done with Ember. :scared:

Then again take this with some grain of salt since last time I pointed out a bug with the armor bonus from the moa swarms not getting removed while soloing 1500 L100 sorti excavation with Ember people pointed out how bad a radiation base damage weapon is for a secondary only sorti vs infested, and it resulted in me going 1.5 pages why mathematically it is plain superior then other options on Ember, while the funny thing is that I only noticed a 90%+ damage reduction because I never deal with that, given that I actually main a heat based frame that is perceived as weak and pointless at higher levels by nearly everybody that plays it.

Edit: Heat damage on it's own is not less or more powerful then other alternatives, it is just more effective at lower levels before the defences catch up, perceived as weak at higher levels with the defences in place and superior to other options once you reduce or remove that defences. This is the reason why incredible high damage frames such as Ember are perceived weak at higher levels, because different to saryn "lets make it AOE and put gas on it" will not work, it requires a deeper understanding of why the damage type is more or less effective and how you make it scale with the downside of becoming incredible numb to enemy scaling after this, because a by public opinion bad scaling frame scales so linear that there is no difference between shooting a L50 bombard to a L200 one, simply because the EHP values are not that different to matter once you remove the 1-2M in EHP from armor other people apparently deal with. As Ember you could put the highest damage weapon in the hole game to shame at a level where they did look like water guns compared to what you got(what was not hard if you benchmark boltor prime vs boar prime above L100). Overall heat is incredible overpowered, underpowered, niche, meta or anything in between, because it is kind of balanced, even with frames like Ember that move it into broken territory if you really want to, and you should because this is the only way to make other people consider Ember as dps frame at higher levels(10 minutes talk about why I use Ember, 8 minute mission in a L100 defence in recruitment chat, you might get why I solo all that stuff most of the time).

Edited by Djego27
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Oh look, it's a Riven that's actually tailored to a weapon's strengths causing the weapon to actually be usable, combined with Corrosive to actually make heat viable by stripping armor so your heat damage doesn't get completely negated by high level armor...

In essence, you've made a shotgun version of a crit-status build of the Akstiletto Prime because you happen to have the right riven.

/eyeroll

Edit:

Here's the build from the above screenshot:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Boar_prime/t_30_00422222_167-5-3-178-6-5-191-0-3-264-1-3-330-3-3-482-7-10-546-4-5-805-2-0_191-7-264-7-805-9-330-4-546-6-167-5-178-8-482-7/en/2-0-30

And here's an Akstiletto Prime build for comparison:

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Akstiletto_Prime/t_30_32222003_193-4-5-195-0-5-204-1-10-206-5-5-212-6-3-487-7-10-543-2-10-605-3-10_195-6-204-7-543-6-605-7-193-6-206-11-212-7-487-8/en/3-0-80

Edited by Almagnus1
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On 4/30/2017 at 9:07 AM, Xekrin said:

The premise is fairly simple.  Put two flames together and what happens?  They merge into a bigger flame.  Add more sources of flame and they merge and grow, increasing in intensity, heat produced and light emitted.

Now what happens if you hit something with a weapon using heat that does 10 base damage?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.  Hit it with another source of heat doing 500 base damage, what happens?  It does 5 damage per tick for 6 seconds.

This is ridiculous.


Suggestion

  • Refreshing a heat proc will overwrite any lower damage values
  • Heat procs will combine and with each new source, the flames increase in size
  • after x procs combine, it will gain the ability to spread to enemies with 2 meters, igniting them for half the duration and/or half the damage, every 2nd additional proc increases this effect by 1 meter.
  • Heat procs active with close proximity to one another (2 ignited enemies with 3 meters of each other), will merge and combine damage, refresh duration and stack procs as indicated above.

Fire is one of the most destructive forces known to us in real life, and yet in Warframe it is kind of a joke.

Heat is a great source of CC but unless you are Ember (or stealth melee, maybe), it is not the greatest form of damage.  Let's find a way to change that in the future.

That would help heat be more viable, but that would also take something like the Akstiletto Prime and make it an even stronger secondary weapon - and it's arguably the best secondary in the game because it's a crit/status single shot weapon with a good fire rate and really good ammo economy with a Carrier sentinel.

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15 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

that would also take something like the Akstiletto Prime and make it an even stronger secondary weapon

Possibly, however my idea is only a starting point.  Something to get those creative juices flowing.  If it spurs some developer, should they notice this, to come up with something better, I am all for whatever happens afterward.

 

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4 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Possibly, however my idea is only a starting point.  Something to get those creative juices flowing.  If it spurs some developer, should they notice this, to come up with something better, I am all for whatever happens afterward.

 

Hmm.... come to think of it, why doesn't fire damage burn armor?

It is possible to have metals ignite if they are put under the correct conditions.

By having fire have a chance to proc armor damage per tick, that might help make fire damage a bit more useful.

On a related note, if a cold proc is on a target, why doesn't impact damage do health and armor damage?  I mean there's no shortage of videos on YouTube where someone sticks something in liquid nitrogen and applies impact damage to it....

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On 2.5.2017 at 0:56 AM, Almagnus1 said:

stuff

Do you know the chance of getting a useful boar riven in trade chat? It is zero, because sellers as well as buyers do not know the weapon. This is why people try to sell crit/damage rolls and people actually pay incredible high amounts of plat for that. A riven on a status weapon is like a massive space for possible solutions, in the meaning that my electric + status roll I used before actually did scale a bit better at very high levels, simply because it improves the corrosive proc rate, while my current roll makes it a bit more of a general shotgun that you can use to blow through lower levels similar as other shotguns with less ammo issues by the added base damage.

As for the boar prime, it is actually a balanced weapon, it had the 40% status before the shotgun rework(where it was undeniable one of the strongest weapons in the game that nobody used, because it is not a OP weapon that one shot kills stuff even at low levels, it simply just happens to scale incredible linear by the way it works with status) and you can do the same with top end shotguns on Ember by "yeah lets just scale up base damage". It also does not one hit kills the star map different to the akstiletto prime if you do just add some crit mods.

I did not make a shotgun version of the akstilleto prime, I made the status shotgun I used before the shotgun rework 2 years ago and I know that the akstilletto is still better, same as the staticor, this is not because the boar prime is bad once you emulate the 40% base status it used to have with a riven, it is a very capable high level weapon that will out scale nearly any other option in the game vs armor, it is just that the current base damage and crit weapons will just outperform it in L100 what is sortis because they are just to powerful to create any resistance at this level while DE and status weapons is just 100% hit and miss when it comes to balance. The boar prime is not a good choice vs infested or corpus, because it does not maintain it's scalability there and is just a low damage shotgun, with the worst range, the worst ammo economy and the biggest spread of any shotgun available, while a vhek will just perform against any faction up to sorti levels plain better.

As for fire damage it is already in a good spot. You can combine it with viral and corrosive for incredible good scaling on most weapons, even with radiation and viral/corrosive at the same time on a hand full of weapons in the game(what can make a mara detron at a 50% base damage cost the preferable option compared to brakk for me, because I use my mara detron every day and next to never use a brakk) where it is more then just good but makes the staticor just the old tonkor of status weapons, with the difference that status weapons do not have real fatigue at high levels, they just need a bit more ammo what is not a big deal on the staticor, given that it is unreasonable ammo efficient as well if you compare it to a boar prime that needs 1 ammo restore every 2 minutes at high levels.

Edit: I love the boar prime any single advantage and flaw on it, since years, because it is the most plausible and balanced shotgun DE ever released and miles above a Trigris prime from a design point of view, since it does not require incredible high damage(it did less damage at point blank with no pellets missing then a boltor prime), it does not require reducing the flaws of the weapon, it does not require that a prime weapon necessarily outperform other options at lower levels. Similar as the Latron Prime it just scales better at high levels. It is the pinnacle of shotgun balance, unintentional by a bug in status calculation what just did hit the spot, what never did flourish with weapons in it's class after it and redefined shoguns as a weapon class long before one shooting the hole star map with a shotgun.

Edited by Djego27
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1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Do you know the chance of getting a useful boar riven in trade chat? It is zero, because sellers as well as buyers do not know the weapon.

And that's exactly why any experience you are relaying about the Boar Prime involving that Riven should be discounted - because you are an edge case and not representative of the majority of players.

Face it, without that riven your Boar Prime would be a subpar shotgun at best - because that one mod is contributing about 1/3 of the overall damage on your shotgun, and it's absolutely critical to making the Boar Prime work because you must hit 100% status chance on a shotgun or it's effectiveness as a status weapon drops off significantly.

Edited by Almagnus1
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You can do the same thing with just top end weapons using simply heat scaling mechanics in stuff like L100 sorti what is basically low level, status Ember like I play it is incredible old school form a time long ago where it did actually outperform nearly everything in the game while being considered as useless since even WoF was kind of meh.

Rivens are incredible bad, I actually agree with that.

Without my boar prime and a riven I would just use something else, same as I did the last 2 years, that does not need rivens and is even more powerful, because balance is next to non existent in the game.

The reason why you will never find a god roll boar riven in trade chat is that the person that rolls it would need the same understanding about the weapon as the person that buys it to judge the value what is impossible given the low amount of users(it got the max amount of riven scaling for that reason), while it is not even that powerful given that other weapons can pull it off without rivens.

As for the edge case, like I am explained in another topic, it is not really something I chose to be, it is just what I end up to be for the rest of my life because I am that 2% that does not share any common nominator with the 2% or anybody else on the planet. The boar prime at face value and without the 40% status however is incredible bad, adding damage to it does not really matter much, because you only add damage to a weapon where damage does not matter(it would be like crit modding my 2.5% crit mara detron).

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40 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

You can do the same thing with just top end weapons using simply heat scaling mechanics in stuff like L100 sorti what is basically low level, status Ember like I play it is incredible old school form a time long ago where it did actually outperform nearly everything in the game while being considered as useless since even WoF was kind of meh.

Except heat gets it's but handed to it by armor (see http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor and http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Heat_Damage for info the maths).  Heat kinda needs to be paired with corrosive so it can punch through armor, or you will end up in a situation where you hit a wall with your damage because the enemy armor mitigates your damage to nothingness.

Quote

Without my boar prime and a riven I would just use something else, same as I did the last 2 years, that does not need rivens and is even more powerful, because balance is next to non existent in the game.

Exactly.  The Boar Prime is not a good weapon.

There's a reason why I'm using it on Titania as my Dex Pixia weapon choice, as even my tricked out Hek is still a better weapon than the Boar Prime will ever be.

Quote

As for the edge case, like I am explained in another topic, it is not really something I chose to be, it is just what I end up to be for the rest of my life because I am that 2% that does not share any common nominator with the 2% or anybody else on the planet.

Stop it with the self flagellation already, it's insulting to everyone reading as you're just trying to play the emotional card to shut down anyone pointing out you're BSing your way through an argument.  That behavior is also ridiculously offensive to others with similar conditions (like me) because you're waving yours condition around as a faux strawman "get out of jail free card" to try and get sympathy and get out of arguments you are losing.

So getting back to the edge case comment: You're an edge case because a good riven will push a weapon far above what it's average would normally be... essentially a outlier that's far above the bell curve where the rest of the playerbase actually is.  Go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation for more info on what I'm referring to.

Quote

The boar prime at face value and without the 40% status however is incredible bad, adding damage to it does not really matter much, because you only add damage to a weapon where damage does not matter(it would be like crit modding my 2.5% crit mara detron).

You may want to go read http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boar_Prime as well, because Boar Prime only has a base 30% status chance, with a 15% crit chance.  Due to the way that multishot status chance works (see http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Effect ), you absolutely have to hit 100% status on the shotgun, or your ability to proc status chances gets greatly reduced due to math.

This means that a status shotgun must either be using Hell's Chamber and http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nano-Applicator (which would combo nicely with Ember's 2) or Hell's Chamber + all four of the damage/status mods.  This is where your riven steps in, because it can replace one of the damage/status mods, giving you the ability to do either fire/corrosive, or fire/viral - with the former being far more effective at quickly dropping things because of how armor scaling works.

Edit:
Status + crit is why the Akstiletto Prime is why it's so good when combined with the fire rate, as you basically peel armor while letting your slash and fire procs do work, with enough crit chance to get some really nice crit status procs.  I doubt the Akstiletto Prime would be nearly as good without the damage and/or fire rate.

Edited by Almagnus1
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You can punch through L100 with a fully heat modded weapon on Ember, like the vhek or rakta cernos or lots of others that I do not use that often. Same as I can do with other frames with that weapons where you simply add viral or corrosive for scaling.


The boar prime is a very good weapon, it is just happens to not come in the form of 50k damage each shot like the Tigris prime and requires the player to actually know how status shotguns work(what they don't for the vast majority of the player base) why it does scale better then other shotguns, even with all the disadvantages on it, different to the Tigris prime where DE just slapped a 30% status chance on it after higher damage for no good reason. The reason I did not use it the last 2 years is simply a change from 40% base status to 30% in the shotgun "buff" as a trade off for 10% more dps and 5 more rounds in the magazine with a longer reload while the weapon purely scales over status.

I do not play the emotional card, because this is actually what my disability prevents me to do. Why do you believe I would not know what standard divination is? What do you think you imply mathematical with a edge case? Since you probably not know, it is simply min and max of a function while also stating that my feedback should be ignored, what eliminates the max since this would lead to the conclusion that my input would be more valuable then others, therefore by the process of elimination you actually express that my opinion should be ignored because it has such a low value. That is nearly as cute as a guy in a documentary about another autist I seen once that did give his wife 3 mathematical functions when she asked him how much he does love her. The woman was incredible confused of how this could be a answer to her emotional related question. Then the man did sit down, did grab a piece of paper and did draw the functions and explained it to his wife that has like most people issues to visualize a mathematical function in her mind. The reason why people use visual calculators that do that, while I was the only person of 60 in higher math or one of the 12 that did electronic engineering II(part one had a 80% failure rate, of people that are very intelligent and do study), where you use complex numbers instead of real ones, at the university with that http://ernst.mulder.com/calculators/casio-fx82super-index.html. The first one was a quick rising with a quick fall one, expressing his excitement meeting her first, the 2. one was a lower rising slower falling one, describing the time it takes learning more about each other and the last one a non linear rising one, describing his feeling that he appreciate her as a person more and more as time moved on. This is probably a incredible weird yet logical example of how you approach a purely emotional question as a person that does not know how to do that with math(what the person does know very well and you will find nothing more clearly defined on the planet, where infinity, impossibility and even not solvable are all common and clearly defined states till somebody solves it or redefines the impossible in a clearly defined logical way better then a person before it), compared to a neurology normal person that would just say "I love you."

While my electronic engineering professor was universal hated by nearly ever student, because he liked to showcase how dumb we are actually(to a point where he suggested to one of my room mates that he is to stupid to be in his class and should stop to study, after enjoying to watch him fail at a mathematical problem for 10 minutes in front of the hole class, that he solved for him in 20s, since he cached him sleeping in class). I actually did take every single one of his classes and always look up to him, because I never since did meet a person that was so rational, tame and just so mind blowing better then you at complex thinking where your talent at rational thinking compared to your disability of relating to emotional driven one just looked like another disability, because it was so incredible bad in comparison.

A riven on a status weapon works not like "uhm it should have damage, crit and crit multiplier or multishot"(what makes most old weapons that relay on damage stats still worse then newer ones without a riven on it), it only significantly changes the weapon if you know exactly what you need and how this will change your weapon that scales not really with damage but status effects. You only need a 60% status mod that does not also has cold(what a lot of my rolls had) because it is terrible with a corrosive/blast given that the knock down combined with high spread vastly reduces the low base damage even more as far as hitting multiple targets with as much pellets as possible and that it does not work on a frame that scales not all damage but only fire. You do not need the 160%+ extra base damage(I had a status + electric roll that worked even better at higher levels because it changes the proc weighting) and status duration is also not required, given that you do not get the damage scaling by dots, it does not need more CC and corrosive is a instant proc, not modified in power by duration.

The reason you have to hit 100% status with a shotgun(before multi shot) is a bug in the status chance calculation that turns 1 pellet to be a guaranteed proc into all pellets being guaranteed procs, making status shotguns the most powerful status weapons in the game when it comes to stack stuff like corrosive procs, while they are fairly weak for stuff like dots, given that the dot scaled with the damage of the pellet(where slash proc from a dread in return is very powerful). Multi shot does not affect this, it just creates more pellets and has no other influence on the mechanic other then just providing more proc/s and making shots more consistent(given the 9 pellets of the boar prime can actually all miss a man sized target at 20m range, given the massive spread).

Nobody seriously uses nano applicator, if you want to know why just play with it a 1h solo survival zoomed in a using a ability every few seconds, it is terrible as any mod DE tries to sell as a status band aid outside of conditional overload or weeping wounds that is just as bad as blood rush. 

As I told you before you do not need to use status on your "status" weapon because it is very strong with crit alone. The ak stilleto would be perfectly fine without the crit, less status or fire rate. You do not have to trust my judgement, just get a braton prime and play with a actual status weapon with a base damage of 35 per bullet for 1h+ in the void(where the gun is actually fairly good compared to a soma prime, because it uses a lot less damage and actual status instead of crit) and compare both.

Edited by Djego27
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31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

You can punch through L100 with a fully heat modded weapon on Ember, like the vhek or rakta cernos or lots of others that I do not use that often. Same as I can do with other frames with that weapons where you simply add viral or corrosive for scaling.

Yes, but we're talking about how fast you can drop something, not whether or not it can it be done.  With sufficient time (and enough damage mitigation) I can beat something down with a Skana.  Or I can take a well put together Nikana Prime and do it in a fraction of the time.

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The boar prime is a very good weapon, it is just happens to not come in the form of 50k damage each shot like the Tigris prime and requires the player to actually know how status shotguns work(what they don't for the vast majority of the player base) why it does scale better then other shotguns, even with all the disadvantages on it, different to the Tigris prime where DE just slapped a 30% status chance on it after higher damage for no good reason. The reason I did not use it the last 2 years is simply a change from 40% base status to 30% in the shotgun "buff" as a trade off for 10% more dps and 5 more rounds in the magazine with a longer reload while the weapon purely scales over status.

If the Boar Prime is a good weapon, why does almost no one use it?

Saying something's good, and something that's actually good can be two vastly different things - as is the case here.

That you're defending a suboptimal weapon as "good" only goes to show why your feedback should never be taken seriously because you are emotionally attached to your weapon, which is why you're so vigorously defending a weapon that is obsolete (at best).

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

What do you think you imply mathematical with a edge case?

Easy, if you view the weapon build distribution effectiveness as seen on the DE servers as a bell curve, with DPS on the X axis and players on the Y axis, setting an unranked, unmodded weapon as the origin, the vast majority of players fall within the bell curve, so a riven build would (by definition) be 1-2 deviations away from the average of the player base because rivens are so RNG centric that duplicating a riven build is functionally impossible.

The RNG is why I also tend to just ignore the riven builds, because if you do not get a good riven, then the garbage weapon is still garbage - and a riven is not guaranteed to make a mastery fodder weapon (like Boar Prime) usable.

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp if you think about it graphically.  Why are you incapable of grasping it?

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The reason you have to hit 100% status with a shotgun(before multi shot) is a bug in the status chance calculation that turns 1 pellet to be a guaranteed proc into all pellets being guaranteed procs, making status shotguns the most powerful status weapons in the game when it comes to stack stuff like corrosive procs, while they are fairly weak for stuff like dots, given that the dot scaled with the damage of the pellet(where slash proc from a dread in return is very powerful). Multi shot does not affect this, it just creates more pellets and has no other influence on the mechanic other then just providing more proc/s and making shots more consistent(given the 9 pellets of the boar prime can actually all miss a man sized target at 20m range, given the massive spread).

In other words: it's the DE math with shotgun that's on the status page that I linked that you're clearly too lazy to go read.

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Nobody seriously uses nano applicator, if you want to know why just play with it a 1h solo survival zoomed in a using a ability every few seconds, it is terrible as any mod DE tries to sell as a status band aid outside of conditional overload or weeping wounds that is just as bad as blood rush.

Zooming in on weapons isn't bad as long as they aren't snipers.  I frequently do that when I'm using non-sniper primary and secondaries because it helps improve accuracy - assuming the spread isn't junk.

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

As I told you before you do not need to use status on your "status" weapon because it is very strong with crit alone. The ak stilleto would be perfectly fine without the crit, less status or fire rate. You do not have to trust my judgement, just get a braton prime and play with a actual status weapon with a base damage of 35 per bullet for 1h+ in the void(where the gun is actually fairly good compared to a soma prime, because it uses a lot less damage and actual status instead of crit) and compare both.

And yet, the Akstiletto Prime is a very solid weapon because the status chance (when combined with Corrosive) will quickly strip armor, and combined with the Slash and Fire procs can DoT up an enemy, and then throw in high crit chance with the fire rate and you have a good possibility to get crit status DoT procs - which is why the Akstiletto Prime just melts things when you have it built out with the three primed mods.

So thanks to the ingame math:

Crit+Status >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status

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