Heat damage should have a scaling AOE effect

[Djego27]

You one shot most stuff at L100 with a pure heat modded vhek or rankta cernos with Ember and just use corrosive or viral in combination with heat on other frames where it does the same.

Nobody uses the boar prime because people are not able to figure out. Where people demand damage and crit buffs for the boar prime and you are looked as some kind of strange person when you say that it just needs 10% more base status. Same deal with the forum posts that over and over point out the lack of crit and that it is still absolute useless, it shreds max level stuff in the similcarium(also bombards and heavy gunners) and does not show any kill speed fatigue up to L140 solo with Ember(75 ish minutes) in survival(at what point you just get one shot to much to reliable play further).

A bell curve is used to describe normal distribution or as tool to test how normal the distribution for your actual data is. Every person falls within the curve, since it is a simply a line drawn over all measurable points what you use as input data, what you mean is how far it deviates from the median, and things are no edge cases, they mathematically just show a higher divination then other values in your curve and are removed in some cases in statistic since they do not matter enught like people that do not drive a car when you want to analyse how different ages of costumers chose between the cars you make(what you imply should be done with my opinion) or included if you actually use it for stuff like quality control since it is the data you are interested in. Since you only have dps, you would have to normalize status scaling to fit into the graph, what you can not given that status scaling is non linear(it scales stronger the higher you go with stuff like corrosive, since armor is a multiplying modifier to health) while dps is. What you would actually see is something like x² since you move the high damage weapons that are also more used to the upper right while leaving little used weapons that universal all do lower damage close to 0,0. The same function would spike a lot if you have high damage weapons that nobody uses(like the boar prime putting them close to 0 on y while very far off the centre on x) or having weapon that everybody uses and do very low damage(like the all the new players that will always use the starter weapons since they are given to them at the beginning of the game) where your points would be very high on the y axis while very low on x at the same time. The only thing you would see on your graph is incredible noise to a point where it lets you not come to a reasonable conclusion since you can not make a function out of that or a simple x² given that the more damage a weapon does the more more likely it is that more people use it. Using normal distribution to analyse how rivens affect weapon choice or my opinion should be ignored does not make any sense in a mathematical function like you defined it since the data would not be a normal distribution.

As a little tip, using the X axis for something that you determinate as better defeats the hole purpose of doing a analysis about normal distribution in your data, since your most common case should be somewhere around zero, where your function would terminate since there is no negative dps and therefore no players that use them.

Why you try to insulting me? Most people are not good at visual math, there is no reason to feel insulted or bad about it because this is expected and normal. The ability to draw a line in your mind instead of a piece of paper is not what you are supposed to learn in math class, this is why you are given a tool that does that for you, similar as it does the basic steps in the calculation, same as my professor did not use a calculator at all, because he could literally do complex math as easy as you do 1+1 without one.

The thing you are supposed to learn about normal distribution in applied IT for example is simply that your circuit might very likely not produce the intended result in a statistical measurable and mathematical clearly provable amount of steps, this might be because it can not switch between high and low as quick as the manufacturer did intend, it might mean that it will react different at different levels of temperature or that you simply did program it wrong. We do not take a few million steps per second, grab a piece of paper, draw a curve and look at this. This is not what you are supposed to learn when a teacher introduces you to the concept of normal distribution, it is simply a abstract model to look at things and analyse how common things in your data are that helps you to find and solve a problem that should not exist, yet is very common in the real world.

Math is not about drawing lines in your head, with your calculator or on a paper, it is about concepts how to analyse and solve problems in a very abstract way(to a point where even your problem can be abstract and not even exist in the real world). The number you put into a formula instead of x is not relevant if you look at x², what is relevant is to understand that there is a common pattern with the exception of 0 and 1 that any number you use will follow and a defined answer to what the result is, where it again does not matter if this is a number, something impossible in real life or simply a error as a machine would tell you if you trigger a memory overflow with it.

The Wiki page is wrong same as the guy that did most likely code the status chance for pellet mechanics did forget to add a exception for 100%. Something that I see nearly every day.

Play zoomed in for a hour non stop with a boar prime, just saying.

Are you literally incapable to realize 2+1 is something different the 2-1 and you are the most awesome person on the planet by being able to do with a 3 what others do with a 1?

In my opinion you should visit your math teacher and demand from him to do a better job, does not matter where you are in life, because learning math without a practical application attached to it is not useful for most people. I will never be capable to come up with a concept like a turing machine on my own, that Turing basically created to prove that the Entscheidungsproblem is not solvable by a machine, so he defined a rule set and mechanism of a machine in his mind that can mathematically solve everything, a machine can solve and did prove mathematical that the Entscheidungsproblem is not solvable by any machine, because it was not solvable by his machine, that could solve every mathematical thing a machine can process, while creating the base line concept of a universal calculating machine, what could calculate everything because you can change the code you use while the hardware stays always the same, while similar machines of his time could only do one calculation, the one they where build for and could not mathematical prove this. However I can understand the concept of a turing machine, because Turing managed to break down a unreal complex and abstract mathematical task that we could not come up with, that was considered plain impossible to do at his time down to something very basic that we as normal people actually can understand and use. Similar as a guy named Steve Jobs managed to make my 2 years old niece capable of using her little fingers to play with a Ipad, a computer, Turing did the same with people that you would consider as geniuses by telling them how one of the most important machines in our life should work without even building it.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Djego27

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

You one shot most stuff at L100 with a pure heat modded vhek or rankta cernos with Ember and just use corrosive or viral in combination with heat on other frames where it does the same.

Vaykor Hek and Rakta Cernos can one shot a Lv100 with pretty much any damage combo, they are crit weapons.  Heat has zero to do with it.  Take an atomos into a Lv100 mission without ember to multiply its damage 5x over and let me know how well you do.

Everything you wrote below what I quoted made absolutely zero sense.  Your walls of text are very confusing and do not even follow linear thought patterns much less contribute to any kind of valid discussion on this topic.

I'm very happy your professor could to math in his head, though.  Also go steve jobs! great guy!  or whatever he had to do with this.

[Almagnus1]

So back to the original thought... the biggest problem I see with status procs that merge into something bigger are automatic status weapons, as that can OP them.

For an automatic crit/status weapon (like the aforementioned Akstiletto Prime), I can see this type of mechanic only making the stronger weapons even stronger.

What I don't see it helping are the innate multishot (shotgun type) weapons, as this mechanic would likely only make those type of weapons worse.

[DSpite]

On 02/05/2017 at 1:25 AM, Xekrin said:

If 4 Embers already trivialize missions how would a bit more make any difference?  Ember isn't the only user of fire, btw, and this is a general concept, keep that in mind.  Developers are quite capable of restricting and / or revising mechanics to make for a better balanced experience.

Not that I have any fear of that anyway, with Resonating Banshee already trivializing missions and it doesn't even require four of them!  The other three players just twiddle their thumbs.

---

If you or anyone else sees something wrong with my idea, a better way to contribute to the discussion would be to suggest improvements or modifications of your own rather than commenting only to make my efforts seem worthless.

Thanks.

If you can't understand the reasoning why DE would not make Nova antimatter coatings from applying it multiple times - which for the record should "stack" even better then fire, being antimatter - I'm pretty sure the word "balance" is not in your dictionary.

We kill things fine with fire, up to already silly levels, so I fail to see why DE will give you the ability to move that number to "silly levels * 2" for no reason at all other then "I think this is the way it should be, RL example follows".

You did not ask for a mechanical rework, or a utility rework or a quality of life rework, you straight out asked for a "more damage output rework", which is not a reasonable request by any standard.

You have 237 MILLION affinity on your Saryn Prime, which seems to imply that you like the "press one button and make everything die" AoE kind of play, and now want that extended to Amber? And you can't see why that is a bad idea, when even DE realized the original Saryn ability of one-button Miama was a bad idea?

If DE "nerfed" Miasma for being too much "AoE mass murder" why on earth - or any other planet on the Star Chart - would they allow 4 Ambers on a mission constantly hitting "fire" to get massive damage by stacking massive AoE fire?

There is nothing to contribute to a "just give me more damage because" thread. Try another approach to the "problem" and I will try and actually add something myself that is not just "that is a bad idea".

Level 60+ things should not just fall over and die from casual use of abilities. The fact they already do from some does not mean "Frame ability X has a problem" it means that mistakes were made with the other abilities.

 

 

[Xekrin]

40 minutes ago, DSpite said:

You did not ask for a mechanical rework, or a utility rework or a quality of life rework, you straight out asked for a "more damage output rework", which is not a reasonable request by any standard.

I actually did not ask for more damage, I did ask for a higher damage proc to overwrite the lower damage proc, I did not however, ask that heat stack like toxin or slash (which add together damage over time).  What I asked for, in terms of stacking was for the status to combine making an aoe effect that causes nearby enemies to also catch fire, for half damage/duration.  Re-read the OP.

42 minutes ago, DSpite said:

You have 237 MILLION affinity on your Saryn Prime, which seems to imply that you like the "press one button and make everything die" AoE kind of play, and now want that extended to Amber?

I rarely use miasma in game play and when I do it is because enemies are so high a level that I use it primarily for its stun not damage.  Miasma alone doesn't do enough damage to press just that.  If you think I use Saryn that way, you've not played saryn recently.

44 minutes ago, DSpite said:

If DE "nerfed" Miasma for being too much "AoE mass murder" why on earth - or any other planet on the Star Chart - would they allow 4 Ambers on a mission constantly hitting "fire" to get massive damage by stacking massive AoE fire?

Again, re-read the OP, the damage would ultimately remain the same, it would not stack.  What would stack is each proc (or every 2nd 3rd or 4th proc) increasing the range of heat igniting nearby enemies of the original target.

Also it is Ember not Amber.  I'm not sure you are even qualified to discuss frames if you don't know their names.  Just saying.

46 minutes ago, DSpite said:

There is nothing to contribute to a "just give me more damage because" thread. Try another approach to the "problem" and I will try and actually add something myself that is not just "that is a bad idea".

READ the OP, you are clearly having difficulty comprehending what I wrote.  If you need me to I can try to simplify it further.  Let me know.

[Djego27]

On 6.5.2017 at 7:31 PM, Xekrin said:

Vaykor Hek and Rakta Cernos can one shot a Lv100 with pretty much any damage combo, they are crit weapons.  Heat has zero to do with it.  Take an atomos into a Lv100 mission without ember to multiply its damage 5x over and let me know how well you do.

Everything you wrote below what I quoted made absolutely zero sense.  Your walls of text are very confusing and do not even follow linear thought patterns much less contribute to any kind of valid discussion on this topic.

I'm very happy your professor could to math in his head, though.  Also go steve jobs! great guy!  or whatever he had to do with this.

So would it not imply that heat is a good as other damage types on this weapons? I actually always use corrosive/heat on my vaykor hek.  As I told you on the last page both Atamos and Ignis are not designed for high levels, given that they are more AOE weapons without much status.

Where did you struggle?

Is it me pointing out that allmagnus1 is wrong if he thinks what he does with math produces a bell curve and would be useful in a analysis on a normal distribution? I do not expect you to understand why the 5 points I mentioned will make this impossible, because this requires a bit of practical experience with what a bell curve implies mathematically(what you will acquired if you work with them a bit, because it saves a ton of time). However it would be very easy to check my conclusion by creating some user numbers, remove all the 4 other cases and check each one if you can create a bell curve with it. If one would not produce the bell curve, non will, that's the beauty of math because you can use the rule of elimination.

Is it that I actually point out some things about where and why we actually use certain mathematical models in real life, to help us to understand problems better? I think it is fairly important to point that out, given that he probably never done that, the reason why he does not understand it.

Is it that hard to grasp the basic concept of why we get told to draw lines and run useless calculations to learn math has nothing to do with the actual thing and it is not what you actually should learn? I can take 2 apples and my 2 year old niece will notice if I put one next to the other that this is 1+1 if I explain it to her, if I remove that apple and explain her that this is 2-1 what results in 1 she will understand it, because she can see something was added or is missing, while not knowing that she just learned that we can measure the presence or the lack of something, even if we don't have apples and can see it. I now tell her to get 2 ice creams from a ice cream truck, I give her 5€ and she will know that one ice cream is not enught, because it is less then 2, what is sufficient for a 2 year old girl to do the task at hand. However I told her nothing about math. Because math is the tool that lets you prove that 1+1 is 2, so you do not need to get told it is 2, you can figure it out on your own and our only tool with what our fairly limited brain can decide in complex things what is right or wrong, because we can mathematically prove, measure and test if we are right or wrong, while we can do nothing like this if we can not mathematically explain it. The reason why we explain physics with math and not math with physics is because we know math very well, we created it, it is self defining(what means you can prove or disprove everything in math with math itself, what no other scientific field allows), allowing us to define models build with math as long as they are proven correct with it and applying math to it again to come to our conclusion, universal, self correcting(because there are a ton of mathematicians that want to do something great in life, that only comes from proving somebody important wrong or coming up with something nobody figured out before you) and a brilliant language to describe what we do not understand to actually kind of understand it, while we would know nothing at all about physics if you could not use math to explain it. Take a simple thing like gravity and momentum, how would you explain it without math. You know that you stick to the ground while other things can fly, however they always come to the ground at one point. Whey do we feel pain when we run to fast, when we crash into something, when we fall from a to high elevation? However you can not describe it, you can not measure it, you can not say something is lethal before you tried it out and did in fact kill you and you can't actually understand it. However once you apply math to it you can understand it, this is not because math makes everything simple but because a mathematician actually decided to check out how it actually works with a mathematical model, if that fails he will try the next and so on till he can prove that something works exactly like he predicted with math, because he can prove that it works every time like that with math just as he intended, not because he defined how gravity has to work for math but because he did analyse it with math till he figured out how it works mathematically.

Is it shotgun status calculation? A machine will not do what you did intend it should do if you do not define precisely what it should do. What will happen if you not do this are debug errors(that should not exist according to my engineering professor, because you did type before you did think every single formula, every single case, every single problem to the end before you strike the first key on your keyboard what makes you a terrible programmer in his eyes) or bugs that are often not fixed because they do not create serve issues in the code during runtime, such as applying 100% status chance to all pellets instead of just one, given that status shotguns are very rare and it is not a game breaking bug(it actually gives the weapon purpose that they would not have without it) it is very likely DE knows that and just decided to let it in the game.

You are also correct that it has nothing to do with the topic and I could probably also replaced the answer with just scratching my head, given that the answer I give might be to confusing. The last thing is actually a metaphor, that is probably hard to get for people that do not know what Turing did(providing a theoretical base work purely mathematically how a universal calculating machine should work), what Jobs did(that was not redesigning the machine, he just proved that everybody was wrong when designing the interface when confronted with the task of how to sell everybody that does not buy a pc because he can not understand and use one, a pc that he can use and wants to buy) and why that means that a 2 year old girl can actually do something with a universal calculating machine today while even the smartest mathematician on the planet would have issues to redefine it better then the guy that invented it 80 years ago with math. Something that is very intimidating if you know how complex it actually is on the mathematical level that did lead to his invention as well as how much time it takes to understand if you have to program it at the base level, where you actually need to know how it works inside out and where it can only understand math, logic and machine code.

The reason I mention that is that nobody managed to explain to me understandable in middle school what we should do with math, because nobody actually could tell you that.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

**wall of text**

Can someone give us a tl;dr: of this post?

[Djego27]

There is no TLDR, the reason I typed it out is that you should learn something, even if I do not believe you will.

The TLDR would be you are incredible stupid compared to somebody like me what is not incredible smart in the grand scheme of things, what you can actually check with math, a piece of paper, a book about normal divination and just yourself in a quiet room for 60 minutes. If you manage to come to any other result, grab your phone and call the people that hand out the nobel price because you just proven math wrong.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Djego27

[Xekrin]

4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Can someone give us a tl;dr: of this post?

something about math, a 2 year old girl, and ice cream.  It might also involve a professor, that's the best I could do.

[Almagnus1]

9 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

There is no TLDR, the reason I typed it out is that you should learn something, even if I do not believe you will.

No, I stopped reading your rambles because I assume you're not a native english speaker since you ramble without connecting points together.

So it's really coming across more as an appeal to emotion than an actual structured post.

Edit:
In other words:

Quote

"Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away" -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Xekrin]

25 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

If you manage to come to any other result, grab your phone and call the people that hand out the nobel price because you just proven math wrong.

No one is arguing how math works.  Insulting people does nothing but annoy everyone.  Writing very long speeches that make absolutely no sense at all and not properly breaking up the text (BIGWALLOFTEXTBAD) makes it difficult to read.

I realize we aren't understanding most of what you write because you are doing so in a language you are not fluent in.  I'm sorry we cannot speak your native language, its just how the world works.  This is a great reason to keep your replies very short and to the point so there is no room for us to not understand what you are trying to say.

Going off and randomly talking about your niece and ice cream and math does nothing to help this conversation.  No one is going to read all of what you wrote and even if they do, I doubt anyone will have any clue what you are talking about.

Does that make us stupid? No it makes us english speakers expecting to read something in english and have the words make sense in our english speaking minds.

Your words do not make sense.  I'm sorry to be blunt and rude about it but please stop.

[Djego27]

The real reason why I talk about a 2 year old niece and ice cream in the combination with math is that I did think that would make it understandable, because the person can not understand math, because she is only 2 years old. However she can do a mathematical task, similar to the one you learn in math class at school while you are technically not learning anything because what you learn is not the the thing you should learn about math. However I am wrong, because you do not understand me. You are actually incapable to grasp the little mental experiment to imagine momentum or gravity in physics class without math, since it would literally remove your ability to tell what it really does, while you actually should try to think how it would be if you remove math form that to experience what math actually does and is supposed to do.

How exactly can it be a insult to tell somebody that something in his opinion mathematical correct is wrong? That is how math works to begin with, define something right or get proven wrong, this is intended to be in it because otherwise it would not be self correcting, what would be a massive flaw in the design what we try to avoid even if it can take centuries till somebody realizes somebody else was wrong. If he does think he is right why not demand a nobel price(this is like all things in her ironic, because math does not have a nobel price, because nobel did not value math as a scientific field enught to deserve one) for that, because if he is right he will actually get one, not because he proved that he is right to me, but mathematically correctly, while I can see why he is not in a second or two. He will obviously never do that, because he knows he is wrong.

I give up, please continue to make warframe a better place for fire damage, because it is such a inferior status element that it clearly needs a buff, even when people that use fire damage every day might disagree, what I actually do. I also like the the touch of people are not understanding me, because they actually do understand me, even if my English is far from perfect if they are interested in my opinion. Btw I can actually get a signal out of the noise what would be somebody from china that communicates in bad English, different to a native speaker that gets nothing out of it. Does this make me logical the person that understands English better than you? Actually no, it does not, it just means that you are incapable of understanding why languages are different and why I can understand you while you can not understand me, what is to a big part probably my fault because I can not speak perfect English, however different to you I can understand people that also do have issues with non perfect English actually very well and do not feel the need to point that out, instead I just ask if something is unclear to me.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Djego27