No More Prime/vandal Weapons

[Niryco]

Thanks for the constructive post, you bring about an interesting point. (Which I honestly didn't consider.) I'd just like to add that future skins could easily be Master Locked as well. It's true that certain skins would be objectively better (and if enemies continue to become higher leveled, I welcome the higher stats,) but in the same way that weapons could be fenced-off, so too could weapon skins.

 

Ha, I deliberately avoided mentioning the effects on Mastery Rank. :-P I imagine that if DE were to roll this out, they would leave you Rank where it is to prevent de-leveling, but you would still have to catch up to where were before your bar would begin to fill again. (I would hope most players would be content enough with the benefits to not mind, but there are always... vocal dissenters.) 

 

Also, weapon skins could have a +/- XX% affect on base ammunition, in any case. (Not that I feel that's necessary.)

We can't satisfy everyone in the game, so we usually go for the best comprise =D

 

Anyways also about the last point, you may not feel it is necessary just saying but it is actually very important towards end-game when ammo is scarce due to enemies being full tanks. However i can only provide portions of the picture, there are more people above that can broadened the view of disagreement because of the time investment sentiments which are harder to part too.

[ZoeSoft]

Using theammostore analogy, the problem is not that there is a better cellphone next year.

The problem is that you lose all your data when changing cellphones.

I dont want to buy a cellphone when I will lose all my data, contacts, music, etc, when changing to a better one.

 

If I could transfer that data (level, primas), I would be happy to buy a better cellphone.

[Lumireaver]

Maybe instead of a refund, the Primes just get converted to the regular versions, with the skin attached already. Either way though, I think Vandals should stay the way they are, because they're exclusive and stuff. I wouldn't mind if they got changed though.

That's a clever way of handling it, but it would still be troublesome for people. Namely those who already upgraded both editions of a weapon. ...I'm on the fence about which method is the most rage-free. (Of course, I assume it could be made so that if you possessed both in your inventory, it would refund the upgrade consumables on the base and alloy you to keep the ones on the special edition...? I don't know, I usually favor simplicity.)

 

And what about mastery levels?

...

What about people who bought the various founders' packages because they wanted the upgraded weapon?

Or the fact that significantly fewer people would grind out Orokin runs for a golden skin they can't even edit the trim on?

It would be a kick to you gut, but it would only happen once, and it would be for the sake of making your future a brighter, more organized place.

 

Skins can modify stats, and you can color them just like normal.

 

...taking away lots of weapon for possible mastery ranks...

...

...killing the events wich would reward just plain skins instead of an actual weapon and if we think of the lore that they´re implementing now why would the tenno just make skins instead of theyr own version of the weapons(Vandal),it would be like painting an Ak-47 to the colors of american flag and say its made in america and the colors make it shoot faster,no I don´t think it would work like that.

Mastery Ranks past 7( or 8?) are presently useless anyway. Best to make this change before that changes.

 

Take a look at the Brokk, Manticore, and the Dagger Axes. They all affect stats. So too do the alternate helmets. Skins aren't "skins" in-lore. They're a game mechanic meant for your convenience that DE seems to have overlooked in their continued (and appreciated) efforts to produce more content. ...In other words, Primes and Vandals being skins which affect stats already ties into the system which they have established.

 

...but allmighty money-grabing desire from devs made it so we dont get any of weapon skins now.

 

Imho - we need to have a blueprints for "base weapons" that can have multyple conversions (like Braton MK-1, Lato MK-1 etc) and then just get weapon kits aka "skins" to alter stats, or be some sort of one-time used item that permanently changes basic stats, without altering lvls, polarities and potatoes.

 

So devs can have easyer time pumping new weapon variants, based on old designes, without frustartion for users of basic weapons.

 

For example Seer can be made into conversion kit for Kraken.

I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to, but I don't believe monetization has ever been a primary factor in DE's creative decisions. If you believe that DE's desire to sell base weapons is the reason we don't have skins, please keep in mind that in order to use the skin, you would first need a base weapon. (Which could be sold, just the same.)

 

However, I do agree that a change like this should also change the Braton MK-1, and that expanding on this system, which is already in place (it's just unused) with other slightly MK-1s (which could be straight-upgraded by purchasing/crafting skins) would be a great idea.

 

Yes, I have high hopes that this topic will be heard. Skins have so much potential. Primes are Orokin super-prototypes, and Vandals are Tenno refittings of (currently just Corpus) other tech. New skins-lines could be made for Grineer conversions of other faction tech, Infested assimilation of various weapons, and so on.

 

I feel unique, lore-based weaponry, (IE: The Seer, the Stalker set, and the Brokk Hammer,) should remain unique and separate existences. They're boss weapons and kind of like trophies in and of themselves... (Also the Seer is more like a super-Lex than a Kraken.)

 

I always said:

"Vandal" and "Prime" should be only skins, not stats difference

A statistical differences are the spice of life. As long as timed exclusives aren't vastly more powerful than the standard fair, I don't see a problem with making them stronger. As skins, they wouldn't make their base models obsolete anyway. 

 

...but It's a separate weapon for a reason, which is (as far as I know) the Lore.

...

Also, if you're going to say 'well, then why should I buy a new weapon when the prime is going to come out at some point,' please stop typing. I bet you are the same person who has never bought a cell phone or a car (taking in that you are financially able to) simply because the newer and better version will come out in a year or a week. This is how things work, everywhere, better things come out, and you just have to take what you got.

 

I wouldn't be upset if this change happened, I just don't feel like it should happen.

Try to bear in mind that it would still be a separate weapon in your Tenno arsenal. It would just take the form as if a skin in your inventory. Skins are a game mechanic. It's very similar to how alternate helmets are skins even though they're alternate helmets...

 

We can't satisfy everyone in the game, so we usually go for the best comprise =D

 

Anyways also about the last point, you may not feel it is necessary just saying but it is actually very important towards end-game when ammo is scarce due to enemies being full tanks. However i can only provide portions of the picture, there are more people above that can broadened the view of disagreement because of the time investment sentiments which are harder to part too.

Yeah, I can't imagine how it must be for DE. When I'm suggesting things, I try and cause the least possible inconvenience for everyone, and I'll still get people who swear I'm trying to actively make the game worse. :-(

 

Well, that's true enough. I tend to never run out of ammo, but I use a Lex, I'd probably feel different if my favorite weapon was automatic.

 

Using theammostore analogy, the problem is not that there is a better cellphone next year.

The problem is that you lose all your data when changing cellphones.

I dont want to buy a cellphone when I will lose all my data, contacts, music, etc, when changing to a better one.

 

If I could transfer that data (level, primas), I would be happy to buy a better cellphone.

(I don't know if you're supporting the idea and I'm just daft, but) yes, if DE actually used the skin system, it would be like being allowed to keep your data when you upgraded phones.

 

Also if "skins" are bugging you, as a few people suggested earlier in the topic, DE could always call them something a bit different. For example, calling them "models," "variants," or something along those lines could help get the point across to those people who get caught on semantics.

[theammostore]

Using theammostore analogy, the problem is not that there is a better cellphone next year.

The problem is that you lose all your data when changing cellphones.

I dont want to buy a cellphone when I will lose all my data, contacts, music, etc, when changing to a better one.

 

If I could transfer that data (level, primas), I would be happy to buy a better cellphone.

But you don't have to upgrade at all. You don't have to get rid of your old cell (weapon) just because the new one came out. You can have both, and use both.

 

@Lumireaver I'm aware of that but...just the feeling that 'welp, I leveled my fangs to 30, and now that I have the prime, it too is also level 30' doesn't sit right with me. When you make it a skin, and you keep the levels and potato and stuff, it takes all that effort of 'leveling a new weapon' and throws it away. I like having them be separate weapons, because that means I get more mastery, and I can work from the beginning again. That's a fun thing to me, releveling equipment, and getting mastery for doing it makes it even better.

 

(at this point I realized I should have included this paragraph in my last post. Tis what I get for posting tired)

[Dasmir]

Enought weapons, more enemies and gamemodes plz.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Dasmir

[NovusNiveus]

My Lato Vandal looks better, sounds better and performs better than a standard Lato - it's like having a 20-round Latron in my pocket. It is by far my favourite weapon in the entire game.

 

Why must people constantly QQ about exclusive gear?

 

Here's an idea; how about you suggest a weapon that performs identically in every way to a Vandal, but without the unique paintjob and sound effects? Why is it a case of 'I don't have it so you shouldn't have it' rather than 'I want a nice pistol, too. Could we get something like that for everyone?'

 

That aside, I agree that there are enough Vandals now - we have the rifle, sniper rifle and sidearm. I think that's a nice trifecta.

Edited July 15, 2013 by UnearthedArcana

[mogamu]

I think when you forma a weapon x4 you have made a commitment to that weapon.  We know for a fact that DE is always adding new stuff so putting 4 forma into a weapon that will "seem" obsolete in a month is kinda asking for it.  Just my thoughts.

 

So far, I have only forma'd one weapon.  I have yet to do it again because I know I like to try the shiny new stuff without having all my resources and time invested in the old stuff.  The only thing I forma'd was my supra because it desperately needed it, and I dont even use it outside of farming control modules (which it is good at)

[GM_Whale]

Rather keep primes and vandals.

 

Why am I playing still if I've acquired everything except a few skins... I want something that is hard to obtain that is actually worth obtaining... not just skin that says im a teeny bit stronger now. Besides, upgrading these increases mastery... I want mastery :P

 

Also... Orokin Extractor... yes pls... can extract a Catalyst or Reactor for 1,000,000 credits in a dojo room. seems legit. i have excess money just sitting around... lets put it to use and switch my potatos around for a change of pace. yes pls

[Zoike]

Agree with the OP.

I have no problem investing money on upgrading my weapon to Prime, but please DE, let me do it.

It feels useless to grind and level up Giant Sword when a month from now Giant Sword+1 is released and all your time goes to waste.

i feel the same.  3 days before update nine not only did i potatoed my paris but forma it as well -___- i think for like 15-25 plat u should be able to take back your forma and your potato but either revert your weapon to lvl 0 or if thts not a good enough consequence destroy it all together......(id do just about anything to get my formas/potatoes back.....) so maybe something like a salvage system? i dont think they should be skins for reasons already stated but i alos hate grinding for a wep only to be rewarded for my efforts with the release of a cooler and better version. its actually quite depressing.........

Edited July 15, 2013 by Zoike

[101blubb]

I've had the same idea as the OP and I agree with it - keep in mind that I, as a r8/almost r9 no-lifer, have no issues whatsoever giving up on some gun or even warframe (excal vs excal prime, frost vs frost prime, whichever prime they happen to create) in order to keep things more structured.

[tsubasakuroi]

Here's an idea; how about you suggest a weapon that performs identically in every way to a Vandal, but without the unique paintjob and sound effects? Why is it a case of 'I don't have it so you shouldn't have it' rather than 'I want a nice pistol, too. Could we get something like that for everyone?'

 

Been brought up many times.

 

Apparently, that seems to be caving in to the demands of whiners and a waste of a weapon implemented in game.

[Davoodoo92]

Remember that DE also needs to make money. So when you decide to slap 5 formas on weapon knowing that someday prime variant will come its your fault.

For potatoes their alerts appear so often that im barely buying them anymore now.

 

Never felt like i "wasted"(used is a more proper word to describe it) 5 forma and potato on my braton even though im farming prime now. It served me well for long enough time.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Davoodoo92

[Kaian-a-coel]

I agree with the OP. What annoyed me recently is 1)getting the snipetron non-vandal (which I'll never use, because vandal), and 2)orthos prime, when I was considering potatoing my standard. Registering the variants as "skins" is an elegant way of dealing with the inventory clusterf**k and "do it all over again rage" syndrome. You'd still have to farm the prime parts, the vandals would still be exclusives, and no more wasted forma, potatoes and slots.

The loss of mastery is not a problem for me. We have more than enough already, and they add new weapons and frames faster than the need for mastery rises anyway.

The only problem, in my opinion, is that some Primes come with an additionnal polarity. This can be dealt with the automatic polarization of a non-polarized slot or an optional polarization (without choice on the polarity) if all slots are already polarized. Probably a headache to code though.

This will also probably trigger a whole wave of sidegrades, which I would gladly acquire.

Edit: thinking of it, you could put the Lanka under the Snipetron skins. Additionnally I am for putting Stalker/boss weapons as skins (despair as kunais, dread as paris...) whenever possible.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Kaian-a-coel

[TrashSpider]

am a little bit on the meh side of this topic, but yea seeing a more unique weapon would be nice... like a new end game burst weapon, or a true grenade launcher '-_-

[Seraphyx]

I think it would probably be for the best if they were turned into skins. I do like having a set of prestigious weapons but there's no reason they can't just be skins.

 

Or maybe they can just work like the alt helmets where they increase/decrease certain stats and you can apply or remove the skin freely whenever you want.

 

Might be too much work to completely revert the work people have put into it. You will have to remove mastery rank experience as well

[Raptros]

I believe that if designed properly, there could be a prime version of each weapon without it making things obsolete.

 

Maybe change how drops work. Make some nightmare modes MAD hard to beat for some prime parts, ect... 

 

With the addition of new planets and enemies in the future, this could be very possible.

 

However, if designed properly, like I said, the prime variants could possibly exclusives that only end up in the hands of the elite or highly ranked, while the lowbies are still fine with the others. 

[Arunasoul]

Or, instead of reverting it all, why not make the 'skins' tag for weapons at least, have the ability to raise mastery for something that alters the whole weapon, such as a 'prime skin'.

 

The idea is simple, the system already exists, and the weapon, as well as all variants, could hold the same potato. Sharing it like the last noodle of pasta between two lovers.

 

Potatos, forma'd slots and everything would then carry over 'smoothly' (not completely, considering prime versions have an additional polarized slot which, in some cases, is pointless and you kind of want to forma it out...), mastery would be unaffected as the variant could have it's own mod slots/leveling ability, and the majority of the complaints listed against moving prime weapons to skins are dealt with immediately without implementing new framework aside from a separate level system being placed on the 'weapon skins' which someone had a decent idea about changing the name to 'variants' so lore junkies are happy.

 

Also disagreed with a post I read stating that primes should not be skins as they are the original. Therefore, lore would have to be re-written to accommodate the skins being made. The answer is no. A person changing their hair color does not defy lore that their hair was once a different color. Also, simply because a weapon was made a skin does not mean the lore changed, just the player's way of accessing that weapon. Lore would not be altered, the Boston Tea Party would still exist, America would still exist, and the planet you are standing on are not changed. It's the difference of a few buttons on a remote control, not going back in time and destroying everything leading up to that moment.

 

That said, I understand why you would want it to remain separate. Mastery, for people who depend on their primes to be where they are today, and the lore stating it as a separate existence, would make lore junkie crowd go cross eyed unless they saw this as an implementation to make things easier on the players. My suggestion counters the majority of issues (if not all) and gives a simple guideline for implementation. Those of you who don't understand why skins would be better then having separate weapons, read the below, the rest, carry on with your day.

 

EXAMPLE WITH INCORRECT STATISTICS BECAUSE I"M TOO LAZY TO GO LOOK IT UP ON THE WIKI.

 

Skana Prime, +5 damage and +10% swing speed.

 

This simple idea gives 2 things. First, the base weapon will be what they buff or nerf, but your skin will always be better then the base weapon because of the modifiers it has. This reduces the temptation of the developers to nerf primes by simply increasing particular statistics from the base weapon, effectively reducing their ability to nerf a weapon in particular as it will draw more community outrage. The skin system's implementation would make them lower the base model to a correctly balanced level, then the boosts upon it for it's prime version would be better suited to end game content as opposed to what the weapons are originally made for which is early to later mid game content.

 

Check the nerfs to the Braton Vandel if you really want to see why a weapon shouldn't exist on it's own separate existence and instead as a boosting skin. They've never nerfed a skin to my knowledge and will likely not do so as it would draw more fire then taking the snipertron from us did. After all, no skin should be OP if the base weapon is properly balanced, it should simply give a little extra power to those who spent the time to MAKE it available to themselves.

[HailCreation]

Reading more than the title of my post would be a sensible course of action.

Except the content of your post doesn't explain why it's an issue, just how the removal should be accomplished. 

 

Base model obsolete? It's an event reward. It's supposed to be a little better because you won a reward for participating in an event. It doesn't make the regular version bad, it just means someone gets a small edge.

 

This really just sounds like you're mad they're limited/exclusive to people who participated in the event. 

[Eirshy]

A bit of a better idea, in my opinion, is to add the non-prime version of the weapon to the build recipe, and include something that checks for potatos and formas, allowing you to keep all of your "expensive" progress on the previous version.

 

 

However, the supposed "gains" aren't actually that great.

 

Assuming stat blocks on the wiki are correct and only comparing the non-Paid primes...

 

Orthos vs Orthos Prime is almost a 100% reskin, potentially with a planned nerf to the original Orthos- making the prime be the dps machine the Orthos currently is, and leaving the Orthos as... well, still a DPS maching because even with slight nerfs the thing will still be basically the best melee damage output weapon in the game.

 

Braton vs Braton Prime, trades some fire rate (~12%) and half the crit chance for 11% base clip capacity and 20% more base damage.

 

Latron vs Latron Prime, in a crit build, it's a gain of 13 normalized damage. Without the crit build, only 5.75.

 

Paris vs Dread vs Paris Prime... Firstly, the Paris only ever beats out the Dread if you've got a source of Sonar; otherwise Dread always beat it. The Paris Prime, however, is... Interesting. According to the stat block, its crit damage is only 1.5x, not the 2x that the other two bows use. In a Crit build, Paris is only 52.5 normalized behind (nearly the exact amount the Paris Prime gains in charged damage, which is under +20% more damage). Dread, however, is still over 70 higher normalized than the Paris Prime, holding onto its title as "best bow-sniper without sonar".

 

Bronco vs Twin Bronco vs Bronco Prime... The Bronco Prime is effectively a Twin Bronco with a per-bullet damage increase of 5 in exchange for a massively lower firing rate. This one's probably the best in terms of "balanced", and actually is just a slide further down the role of the broncos to begin with- short range raw burst. Untill we can akimbo the Primes, I don't think anyone can really complain about this one.

 

Frost vs Frost Prime, you get an extra D polarity. That's really about it. Woo... *finger twirl*

[Dasmir]

Maybe another vandal for the great ps4 port release ? huehueuheuhe i can already see that.

[tsubasakuroi]

Another subset of exclusive weapons celebrating PS4 on warframe? (though of course we can get them as well)

I'd rather not have DE overuse Vandals though but whatever

Edited July 16, 2013 by tsubasakuroi

[zyraconne]

Don't lump Vandals and Primes on the same side. Primes are somewhat okay, but anyone who said Vandals are "only a slight improvement" clearly doesn't have a Snipetron (and base it only against the Braton).

 

Just wait till they make Triple Zoren that has +50 damage AND +25% attack speed. or Hek Moar that has 10 bullets clip size, +50 damage, AND 50% shorter reload.

[Eirshy]

Don't lump Vandals and Primes on the same side. Primes are somewhat okay, but anyone who said Vandals are "only a slight improvement" clearly doesn't have a Snipetron (and base it only against the Braton).

 

Just wait till they make Triple Zoren that has +50 damage AND +25% attack speed. or Hek Moar that has 10 bullets clip size, +50 damage, AND 50% shorter reload.

 

They buffed the Lanka after they created the Snidal. Just wait, Vulkar's getting a buff in the near future as well- and if they ever re-release the snipetron, it'll be getting buffs, too. The Snidal was an attempt to see if they could make snipers relevant compared to the Latrons. They did.

[R3leaZ]

Don't lump Vandals and Primes on the same side. Primes are somewhat okay, but anyone who said Vandals are "only a slight improvement" clearly doesn't have a Snipetron (and base it only against the Braton).

 

Just wait till they make Triple Zoren that has +50 damage AND +25% attack speed. or Hek Moar that has 10 bullets clip size, +50 damage, AND 50% shorter reload.

Vandals are meant to be a sidegrade. Look at what happened to Braton Vandal: It is now inferior to the normal Braton (If the damage would be buffed to 23 damage DPS would become equal and it would actually have a correct description). Snipetron Vandal is what Snipers were meant to be so it will end up with snipers getting a buff for sure since Vandals were meant to be sidegrades.

 

@TheBlueJelly I prefer calling it the Sandal, feels more Asian.

Edited July 16, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Eirshy]

Vandals are meant to be a sidegrade. Look at what happened to Braton Vandal: It is now inferior to the normal Braton (If the damage would be buffed to 23 damage DPS would become equal and it would actually have a correct description). Snipetron Vandal is what Snipers were meant to be so it will end up with snipers getting a buff for sure since Vandals were meant to be sidegrades.

 

@TheBlueJelly I prefer calling it the Sandal, feels more Asian.

 

But sandals are what tourists wear with their socks D=

 

You trying to imply my 5-star Banshee (with two more on the way) is a tourist?