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Original Arcanes were done wrong.


Ironlixivium
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(imo)

     No, I don't mean initially. Everyone can agree that appearance and function being stuck together is a bad idea. I mean what DE did when people complained about this.

     I'm not trying to devbash but I do think this was done terribly. Allowing arcane helmets to exist but be exclusive did not solve the issue, just isolated it. The issue is still there. People who have arcanes STILL have to choose between function and appearance. For example, I have an arcane squall helmet. Due to the recent sale for the Harka skin, I figured I might as well buy it. After spending my plat that I just bought on the skin, I find out, "OH WAIT, my squall helmet is ugly on this skin!" Now I'm forced between function of the squall helm, which I enjoy, and appearance, which I really want to look nice. Aside from being torn on the decision, I'll most likely end up picking function, and simply not use the harka skin, due to ugliness of using it with the squall helm.

This is constructive feedback though, so this is how I think it should have been done: 

     Arcane helmets never should have been discontinued. That just dug the hole deeper. What should have happened is the buffs should have been split entirely from the helmets, and anyone with an arcane should have received this buff option to be chosen in the upgrades/appearance tab (whatever works, not really important) while still remaining as a reward from (I believe is was, tell me if I'm wrong) alerts.

But, DE didn't do this, and anyone can sit around saying how things should have happened. Here are a couple of suggestions for DE as of now:

    First off, I think DE should look to rectify this ASAP. That being said, honestly think the best way to do it would be to simply split function and appearance as I said above, into an option that can simply be selected in the upgrades screen (if you have the required arcane augment) and allow these arcane augments to be traded like the helmets can be right now. In addition, DE could introduce arcane augments for the newer frames, which could be obtained like the old ones were.

    Then, possibly down the line, DE could reintroduce older frame arcanes in the market. Yes, I get that that would screw over people who bought all of them already, I'm not saying they should be cheap, I'm talking 300-400p, something that makes buying it in trade chat a screaming deal.

    So what do you think? Are you a vet who is irritated at arcane helmets too? Please keep it positive.

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Only thing I have to add here is that Arcane helmet stats should not be bound to the helmet, but be awarded with it. 2 items, so to speak, one cosmetic, one gameplay. Have a separate tab in the mod screen that lets you select between the Arcane enhancements from the helmets. Don't bind them to syndanas, don't bind them to anything. Just give options between them.

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Just now, Sir_Puppington said:

I've been irritated for long at the idea of arcanes being tied to a particular cosmetic and not the loadout.

     yes, exactly, I've felt this way for a long time as well, its just that being screwed over twenty seconds after paying DE spurred me to speak up about it.

3 minutes ago, NoggDog117 said:

Only thing I have to add here is that Arcane helmet stats should not be bound to the helmet, but be awarded with it. 2 items, so to speak, one cosmetic, one gameplay. Have a separate tab in the mod screen that lets you select between the Arcane enhancements from the helmets. Don't bind them to syndanas, don't bind them to anything. Just give options between them.

     Yes, that's what I meant by splitting the function and appearance. The function would be a simple option to check in the upgrades menu or something (x or y, super simple,easy to add on DE's part), while the helmet just becomes a simple helmet just like the kind you can buy for platinum. I think this new arcane type should be called an arcane augment, whereas, if you notice, the new arcanes are "arcane enhancements"

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The old arcanes are for all intents and purposes dead. The only work likely to be done on them would be to totally remove them from the game. They have nice extra stats but nothing essential. They agreed with people who didn't want stats tied to cosmetics, and got rid of them. People had put a lot of plat into them, so the existing ones were allowed to stay. To say that doing X was wrong and they should have done Y is inane. If X is possible at the moment and Y would require a total rewrite of a system, then X is what they could do. Rethink telling the devs that they should have done something with no knowledge of what they were working with.

They are working on making the new arcanes something more than merely mods that you throw into slots. Unsurprisingly, this will take time.

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Not irritated, but I was disappointed for a while. Now, I don't especially care. Arcane Helmets offered incremental buffs most of which would amount to nothing with all the new mods and sources of power we have now. I'm not against the system being returned... if it were implemented well.

My question for you is, how are these Arcane Augments acquired? Do you receive them in conjunction with a helmet? Do you still receive them from alerts? If so, not only will they be so obtainable that they're considered a requirement by the community, their trade value will be zero the instant they appear.

There's also Arcane Enhancements, which was intended to replace the Arcane helmets with more potent buffs (of varying arguable worth, yes, but let's not get into that). Should these two mechanics coexist? Should a free core stat buff exist at all? Something like this could make things more complicated whenever DE starts actively working on Damage 3.0.

It's an interesting subject. But I don't think now's a good time to bring Arcane Helmets back. Let's wait till after Damage 3.0, and see how things shake down after a major rebalance. Then we can decide if something like this still matters to us.

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10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The old arcanes are for all intents and purposes dead. The only work likely to be done on them would be to totally remove them from the game. They have nice extra stats but nothing essential. They agreed with people who didn't want stats tied to cosmetics, and got rid of them. People had put a lot of plat into them, so the existing ones were allowed to stay. To say that doing X was wrong and they should have done Y is inane. If X is possible at the moment and Y would require a total rewrite of a system, then X is what they could do. Rethink telling the devs that they should have done something with no knowledge of what they were working with.

They are working on making the new arcanes something more than merely mods that you throw into slots. Unsurprisingly, this will take time.

     Little buffs can be essential if you know what you're doing with them. They didn't get rid of them, they made them impossible to get. Simply giving those with the helmet an item that does the same thing, and can be equipped without changing appearance fixes the issue entirely and isn't hard to do. This change I propose is nothing close to a "total rewrite of the system", and I do know what they were working with. I'm saying what they did was not a good solution, and for those who use the helmets, didn't fix anything at all.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Not irritated, but I was disappointed for a while. Now, I don't especially care. Arcane Helmets offered incremental buffs most of which would amount to nothing with all the new mods and sources of power we have now. I'm not against the system being returned... if it were implemented well.

My question for you is, how are these Arcane Augments acquired? Do you receive them in conjunction with a helmet? Do you still receive them from alerts? If so, not only will they be so obtainable that they're considered a requirement by the community, their trade value will be zero the instant they appear.

There's also Arcane Enhancements, which was intended to replace the Arcane helmets with more potent buffs (of varying arguable worth, yes, but let's not get into that). Should these two mechanics coexist? Should a free core stat buff exist at all? Something like this could make things more complicated whenever DE starts actively working on Damage 3.0.

It's an interesting subject. But I don't think now's a good time to bring Arcane Helmets back. Let's wait till after Damage 3.0, and see how things shake down after a major rebalance. Then we can decide if something like this still matters to us.

Please read the whole thread before replying, I answered most of your questions in the OP, but to reiterate:

• Acquired through alerts

• No, after this change it would be a separate equippable item/upgrade entirely.

• Yeah already said alerts, like helmets are now.

• I addressed this entire subject in the last paragraph. The old augments would not become obtainable through alerts due to those who spent a lot of platinum on them, instead, maybe if DE feels like it, I believe they should reintroduce them as very expensive items in the market. As I said, probably 300-400p, to be a bit higher than arcane prices from other players (not all arcanes are the same price, but the really high demand ones go for a lot. No, I'm not getting confused with new arcanes)

• I also a addressed arcane enhancements. The old arcanes are more like arcane augments, so I say that's what they should be called. Also, they are completely incomparable. They're nothing alike, at all, and they weren't intended to replace arcane helms. Arcane helmets are like mini corrupt mods, usually taking a little of one stat for a little of another. Arcane enhancements add non-passive boosts under certain conditions. Just about everything is different about them and they in no way can even pretend to try to replace arcane helmets.

•They already coexist.

•I don't see the issue, they're trade-offs, not straight buffs, to add some interesting flexibility to different frames while making sure that each and every build is different (you won't always want to build all your casters/tanks/etc the same).

• That's completely unrelated to damage 3.0 and I see no reason to even bring it up. It's a damage rework, not a full game rework. The only way making this change would affect damage 3.0 is if they rework warframe stats and mods as a whole, and I reeaally doubt it.

Pretty sure Damage 3.0 is still quite a long way off, whereas this could be implemented quickly and simply if DE wanted it to. I see no reason at all to wait.

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22 minutes ago, Ironlixivium said:

• I addressed this entire subject in the last paragraph. The old augments would not become obtainable through alerts due to those who spent a lot of platinum on them, instead, maybe if DE feels like it, I believe they should reintroduce them as very expensive items in the market. As I said, probably 300-400p, to be a bit higher than arcane prices from other players (not all arcanes are the same price, but the really high demand ones go for a lot. No, I'm not getting confused with new arcanes)

If this is at all possible in this system, you've totally missed why DE got rid of them.

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19 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

If this is at all possible in this system, you've totally missed why DE got rid of them.

     DE "got rid of" arcanes because people wanted to change helmets without worrying about the stat boost/reduction. This was causing an issue to fashion framers and hardcore players alike, as fashion frame was getting unwanted boosts and reductions while hardcore users were using ugly helmets. DE responded by simply not allowing the boost to be obtained through normal means. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but as far as I know, I'm not. Also I don't believe fashion frame was an established thing at the time, but whatever, it got the point across. I find it hard to believe that it might not be "possible". The coded slot for the boost is there, occupied by current arcane helmets. I doubt it would be hard to even make a new one.

What I am suggesting is not at all connected to appearance. Just a simple augment to stats...Have you read the entire OP? 

I think I missed your point, after I realized what you were replying to...

That was just a suggestion, I'm not pushing for that in the slightest and I would understand entirely if the community and DE don't like it.

Edited by Ironlixivium
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Arcane Enhancements were indeed intended to replace Arcane Helmets. They said this directly in at least one devstream. There are only so many flat or percentile increases you can add before you make a mess of WF's progression system. Over time, they have shifted toward mods and buffs that accumulate (such as Condition Overload) or are trigger-based (such as Syndicate bonuses). They did this in part because it creates more interesting gameplay by making different mechanics interact, and also because there simply isn't room for direct percentile bonuses anymore.

You actually didn't answer my questions in your first post; you stated how things were done previously, but you were not explicit about your ideal implementation. Personally, I don't think these should be awarded by alerts. I see no point in attaching their acquisition to cosmetics when your objective is to divorce them. We have drift mods that do the same thing that the best Arcane Helmets do, anyway; by using those, you lose nothing from the old Arcane Helmet sytem, with the added benefit of no downsides.

I'll be drunkhonest with you. And this isn't judgment, I'm just being direct. I don't think your intent here is motivated by interest in balance, or even interest in making your frames stronger. I think this is just frustration with abandoned mechanics still kicking around in the underground of WF's economy. And I understand that frustration. It's messy. But that's not a valid reason to revive this mechanic when we already possess universally applicable equivalents of what they offered (barring the efficiency/duration bonuses, which are unnecessary because of Zenurik). There's no reason to jump the gun on this.

I also stand by the points made in my initial post.

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I don't really need a comeback of the old arcane helmets, but the arcanes from raids should really never have been attached to your cosmetic items. It was one of two reasons why I never bothered getting any... the other being the fact that you're probably going to spend a year of raiding before you get the arcane you want fully upgraded unless you throw hundreds or even thousands of plat on the market to buy them.

Like with focus, the vast majority of arcanes is useless trash as well, which doesn't exactly encourage players, either.

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You mentioned that this may put off players that bought arcane sets. As one tenno that bought two sets of arcane grace (not cheap), I'd give them both away if it meant I could "untie" arcanes from cosmetics. DE could even sell slots like the exilus and I'd be happy.

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Like you, I and many others suffer from this dilemma. My suggestion is in the following thread,

In short I propose the old arcane helmet bonuses are moved to the present arcane system. Those with arcane helmets can distill the arcanes out and use them to apply on other cosmetics.

Edited by TaylorsContraction
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On 5/7/2017 at 2:35 PM, peterc3 said:

They have nice extra stats but nothing essential.

Tell that to my 12.5 duration 200 efficiency Banshee Prime.

 

It would be nice to turn old arcanes into new arcanes, let them be distilled and installed in whatever, they just need to add a system where certain arcanes are frame-exclusive.

Edited by Callback
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14 minutes ago, Callback said:

Tell that to my 12.5 duration 200 efficiency Banshee Prime.

 

It would be nice to turn old arcanes into new arcanes, let them be distilled and installed in whatever, they just need to add a system where certain arcanes are frame-exclusive.

Sorry but the "new" arcane system is also rubbish. It simply should not be tied to cosmetics, period. Being able to distill arcanes, does not mean it fixes the innate issue of crippling your choice in looks. This is nothing that creates content, longevity or (in the end) additional money for DE (rather the opposite, as this favors sticking to one look, rather than trying new ones).

Arcanes, as they are right now, are just wrong. DE have been asked to seperate them from cosmetics again and again, yet for some reason they chose not to.

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1 minute ago, ScribbleClash said:

Sorry but the "new" arcane system is also rubbish. It simply should not be tied to cosmetics, period. Being able to distill arcanes, does not mean it fixes the innate issue of crippling your choice in looks. This is nothing that creates content, longevity or (in the end) additional money for DE (rather the opposite, as this favors sticking to one look, rather than trying new ones).

Arcanes, as they are right now, are just wrong. DE have been asked to seperate them from cosmetics again and again, yet for some reason they chose not to.

It's a bit annoying to remove and reinsert it into something else, but you do get full choice of looks.  The process is the problem, not the result.

 

How is your choice in looks crippled when you can just distill out your aegis or whatever, slap it into the new syandana you want to wear, and put it on?

 

It's not even a drain to do anymore since distillers are permanent instead of consumable.

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3 minutes ago, Callback said:

How is your choice in looks crippled when you can just distill out your aegis or whatever, slap it into the new syandana you want to wear, and put it on?

It's not even a drain to do anymore since distillers are permanent instead of consumable.

One simple question: Then what's the point?

Having it tied to anything servers just one purpose: Being a timesink. And that comes at the price of being an insufferable nuisance. This system should be parted with already.

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11 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

One simple question: Then what's the point?

Having it tied to anything servers just one purpose: Being a timesink. And that comes at the price of being an insufferable nuisance. This system should be parted with already.

Spaghetti code.

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