New Starter Warframes.

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Not my video, but it's the shortest one to counter the "Excal isn't strong".  At low level's he's a psuedo tank because of his armor, shields, and HP that can do damage and grow into something good.

Your video counters the argument "Excal isn't strong at high level". I said "Mag is stronger than excal at level 1-20". not the best != not strong. high level != start/level 1-20. Seriously, what is your problem?

Anyway, why do you need a tank at low level when two starting frames can kill everything in front of them for 18 or 25 energy? Tanking (as well as healing and CC) are useless when you insta-kill everything.
 

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Easy, they get gifts from more experience players.

It's unheard of, but it can happen.

 

"Excal is the best starting frame in some unheard conditions". Now I understand your problem: you're just a troll. Rhino Prime and Ember Prime are better starting frame than excal. Those can also be gifts from more experienced players - it's unheard of, but it can happens.

 

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Grattler's the only crit status weapon, and the Cygnas isn't very good because it's a status weapon.

Now if you had mentioned archwing gear like the Itzal, Fluctus or Velocitron, I might have taken you seriously...

Or... maybe a big problem with archwing (and the one that I had) was that you have to go farm out your basic mods becuase the game doesn't shower you with mods like the ground game, so having a boss like the Jordas Golem gives the players a way to see how good their archwing configurations are.

Maybe if you had a higher DPS arch-gun, it wouldn't be as problematic for you?

 

So you don't take me seriously because I had less difficulties than you against jordas, while i was using using a weaker weapon than you.

What can I say... Learn how to point your weapon at jordas' reactor? I can't see any other difficulty you may have with a better weapon and frame than me. I don't even know why you assume I had difficulty: I'm the one saying it's a punching ball, you're the one saying it is hard and require an optimal build. Maybe you have some memory problem and forgot how this discussion about jordas started - as you forgot players don't receive a berserker mod at the start of the game. i don't know.

And i don't know why you want a critical weapon with archwing. Grattler can't have more than 40%/x3.2 crit: elemental mods give mode dps. Maybe crits mods are useful if you potatoed your grattler, but potatoing an archwing weapon is dumb - no part of the game require more than a level 10-15 amesha and a level 20-30 weapon.

in the other hand: cyngas has higher status chances, coupled with higher fire rate, so it destroy jordas' armor more efficiently. Cyngas doesn't require any reload, this is a factor when fighting jordas. Cyngas is hitscan, so it is still able to hit jordas when it's flying away. So Cyngas deal more dps, more constantly, while inflicting more status. "but it isn't a crit weapon!"

Stop learning warframe on youtube; use your brain instead. Crit being a thing in ground fight doesn't mean it's useful in archwing. Grattler being one of the best weapon in the pursuit mission doesn't mean it's a good weapon against jordas.

[Almagnus1]

4 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I suggested atlas be a starter. I believe he should be, and the jordas golem can become a derelict boss, and drop a specific mod or two.

Let me make this simple for you.

You need to do the quest Jordas Precept to get the Atlas Blueprint.  Doing this quest also gives you access to the assassination mission so you can farm the parts for Atlas.

Atlas is a quest reward.

Quest rewards should never be starter frames because that devalues the quest.

Therefore, Atlas should not be a starter frame.

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

"Excal is the best starting frame in some unheard conditions". Now I understand your problem: you're just a troll. Rhino Prime and Ember Prime are better starting frame than excal. Those can also be gifts from more experienced players - it's unheard of, but it can happens.

Excal was actually my starter frame.  He was just fine as I didn't notice the damage fall off as I was able to be tanky with him until I started acquiring mods to get Exalted Blade working.  My RL friends who had played Warframe long before I started playing also helped get me going by giving me donations.

I speak from experience here, why are you arguing my experience?

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

What can I say... Learn how to point your weapon at jordas' reactor? I can't see any other difficulty you may have with a better weapon and frame than me. I don't even know why you assume I had difficulty: I'm the one saying it's a punching ball, you're the one saying it is hard and require an optimal build. Maybe you have some memory problem and forgot how this discussion about jordas started - as you forgot players don't receive a berserker mod at the start of the game. i don't know.

It's cause I'm only reading your post, and most posts here aren't quite honestly, I'm just responding to your post and forgetting the rest because it's not that important to me to remember.

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

And i don't know why you want a critical weapon with archwing. Grattler can't have more than 40%/x3.2 crit: elemental mods give mode dps. Maybe crits mods are useful if you potatoed your grattler, but potatoing an archwing weapon is dumb - no part of the game require more than a level 10-15 amesha and a level 20-30 weapon.

Cause I'm building out the Grattler to be:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Grattler/t_30_22220000_429-0-5-430-6-5-431-1-5-432-5-5-433-3-3-436-7-3-438-2-5-439-4-5_429-8-431-6-438-6-433-4-439-11-432-9-430-9-436-7/en/2-0-79

Maybe you should stop posting about Archwing and actually git gud?

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

in the other hand: cyngas has higher status chances, coupled with higher fire rate, so it destroy jordas' armor more efficiently. Cyngas doesn't require any reload, this is a factor when fighting jordas. Cyngas is hitscan, so it is still able to hit jordas when it's flying away. So Cyngas deal more dps, more constantly, while inflicting more status. "but it isn't a crit weapon!"

And if you get in close with the higher EHP of the Odonata Prime with it's skills, you're able to unload the Grattler and drop him fairly quickly because you've got crit AND status working in your favor.  It's the same reason why the Akstiletto Prime is such a good secondary - granted your crit and status aren't quite as high.

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Stop learning warframe on youtube; use your brain instead.

Why you assuming I'm not already do that?

42 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Crit being a thing in ground fight doesn't mean it's useful in archwing. Grattler being one of the best weapon in the pursuit mission doesn't mean it's a good weapon against jordas.

Grattler drops him just fine.

Maybe you should build out the weapon and stop commenting from ignorance?

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Cause I'm building out the Grattler to be:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Grattler/t_30_22220000_429-0-5-430-6-5-431-1-5-432-5-5-433-3-3-436-7-3-438-2-5-439-4-5_429-8-431-6-438-6-433-4-439-11-432-9-430-9-436-7/en/2-0-79

Maybe you should stop posting about Archwing and actually git gud?

So you think i'm not good, because i'm able to succeed all archwing missions with a non-potatoed non-max level arvchwing using a non-potatoed non-optimal weapon while you need several potatoes and rare mods to beat him?

Well, have fun spending your potatoes and formas on an archwing weapon; if you need that to succeed an archwing missions, who am I to criticize? Maybe it's far harder than I though and I'm the best archwing player in the world; or maybe you suck, it's hard to tell. Side note: according to your calculator, cyngas deals more burst dps than your grattler - but less sustained dps. Since cyngas doesn't need any reload, its burst dps is exactly equal to its sustained dps: I don't know what formula are used by your calculator (and I don't care), but it's plain wrong.

 

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And if you get in close with the higher EHP of the Odonata Prime with it's skills

Amesha has invincibility as her first power. "Invincibility", as in "infinite ehp". How can the odonatrash prime get more ehp? Even with a potato and several formas, it doesn't have infinite ehp.

You could have spoken about damage boost. It's a thing odonatrash does have and amesha doesn't. But ehp? Comparing odonatrash and amesha in term of ehp is just ridiculous. Especially during jordas fight: effective energy is infinite (because of zenurik) so amesha's 1 is free. Once again you're talking nonsenses. Did you fight jordas at any point of the past, or are you waiting to have your "perfect" build with 3 potatoes and 12 formas and a shiny prime trashwing?

 

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Maybe you should build out the weapon and stop commenting from ignorance?

I actually compared the grattler and the cyngas against jordas. During the first few fights I was using a grattler, then I switched to a cyngas. Cyngas drops him faster. This is an actual fact I learned from actual experiments. This is why I'm 100% certain cyngas > grattler against jordas, but I don't know about other weapons.

Maybe I should stop commenting from ignorance. Or maybe you're a dumb person writing dumb stuff and you suck at archwing and you can't understand a good high-level frame may not be the best low-level frame. Who knows?

Edited May 19, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[TheBrsrkr]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Rhino is an early game frame and that's good enough. Putting him as a starter would make him the absolute best choice given the extent of modding a new player has to work with. Frost is even worse in this regard, since all his other moves besides snow globe need a lot of know how to really make the most of, and the globe would just be too powerful for them, really. 

 

I would suggest removing Mag (sorry MagPrime) and adding Ash, or just adding Ash as another one. No other frame is really suited to be a starter besides arguably Nyx. 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

38 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Rhino is an early game frame and that's good enough. Putting him as a starter would make him the absolute best choice given the extent of modding a new player has to work with.

Once again, I'd take mag over rhino as a starting frame at any time. You don't need to tank when everything in front of you insta-dies.

Mag starts being a bit weak on Saturn; by the time you get there, you can craft rhino, and trinity, and limbo, and...

The only tank who could be better than mag as a starting frame is limbo. Because he's the only one able to go on any mission and not die. Other tanky frames aren't worth the ability of insta-killing everything form the start of the game until level 15-20.

 

Indeed, Ash would be a good starting frame. Nyx in the other hand can hardly pass the tutorial.

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Once again, I'd take mag over rhino as a starting frame at any time. You don't need to tank when everything in front of you insta-dies.

You are imagining a level of skill and resources that new players do not have as yet. How much energy really drops in the early levels? Not much, I can tell you. New players would get to pull 5,  maybe 6 times a map. That would be all well and good if new players didn't suck. Remember, they don't dodge, they barely take cover, and they have no reasonable method of recovering health besides orbs, which we know sucks.

3 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Mag starts being a bit weak on Saturn; by the time you get there, you can craft rhino, and trinity, and limbo, and...

When you think  about  the fact that modding will be tight on any frame they choose and largely irrelevant until Saturn,   the survivability of the frame becomes a lot more important. Mag's large shield pool helps a lot less because of the too small health pool. While Ash has small shields, he has a crapton of health, which is generally taken better care of than shields, and enough armor to not melt as soon as they go down. 

 

3 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

The only tank who could be better than mag as a starting frame is limbo. Because he's the only one able to go on any mission and not die. Other tanky frames aren't worth the ability of insta-killing everything form the start of the game until level 15-20.

You greatly overestimate the effectiveness of new players with underdeveloped frames, weapons and mods. Taking a hit is much more important than killing to a new player because they take a lot more hits than they give. Lest we forget, melee is one of the most powerful tools to a new player, which they find out pretty early,which usually does not end well for them for this same reason. 

 

3 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Indeed, Ash would be a good starting frame. Nyx in the other hand can hardly pass the tutorial.

Ember would be better, now that I think about it. 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You are imagining a level of skill and resources that new players do not have as yet. How much energy really drops in the early levels? Not much, I can tell you. New players would get to pull 5,  maybe 6 times a map. That would be all well and good if new players didn't suck. Remember, they don't dodge, they barely take cover, and they have no reasonable method of recovering health besides orbs, which we know sucks.

Beginning with Mag is a thing I did, and it wasn't a long time ago. So yes, I know the resource you have.

At the same time, a friend of mine started the game with excal. Since he had more playtime than me, he created a second account with Volt (so my mag and his excal were the same level, and he was playing volt when i wasn't around). His feedback: "volt is far better than excal, because his 1 kills everything in front of him". Mag is even better at that aspect of the game (because no LoS, and because it's a strong CC if the targets don't die). Mag's 2 is also a better defensive ability than Volt's 3, at least at low level (I didn't play mag much at high level - i like squishy frame with strong abilities, but I prefer Nova or Octavia over Mag). Mag's abilities are very strong at low level, her 1 is perhaps the strongest 1 in the whole game at least at low level (silent large area damage + CC without LoS: how many 1 can do that?).

Pull costs 1 energy orb. And you begin missions with enough energy to cast it twice. Energy orbs are scarce, but not that scarce: you cast pull far more than 6/mission. And pull increase the probability of dropping energy orbs: more often than not, casting pull starts a virtuous circle, especially when you pull 4 enemies or more.

That's not counting mods; streamline and energy siphon are available right after the first quest, and damaged streamline is available during the first quest. A beginner won't have everything; but he'll have something. Maybe a (damaged) streamline, so pull costs less than 1 energy orb; maybe an energy siphon; maybe a (damaged) stretch, so his pull affects more enemies; maybe a (damaged) intensify, so his pull has a higher chance to drop energy orb. A beginner won't have enough endo to increase every mod, but again, he'll have enough to increase something.

Any beginner will also have several vitality and redirection, because those two mods drop literally everywhere. And they will quickly understand upping those two mods to level 4 is a good idea; beginners playing mag will quickly understand redirection is stronger than vitality, and they'll have a level 6/8 redirection before you have time to explain endo and the modding system. Beginners are beginners, they aren't stupid or incapacited: they may need guidance for un-intuitive stuff, not for obvious stuff like "Mag has a huge shield so multiplying it by 3 or 4 is a good idea". Therefore, Mag isn't that squishy for beginners. She can't do shieldless nightmare missions, otherwise she's fine.

She's still very good on Jupiter and Europa, because Jupiter and Europa are corpus and she's good against corpus. Her efficiency drops severely on Saturn, because it's a mid-level Grineer planet and she doesn't insta-kill them, while napalms insta-kill her by attacking her health directly. Whatever. You attained Saturn, so you have completed 8 junctions, several quests, some special objective on some missions, you have opened several void relics, you have crafted some stuff, etc: you're not a beginner anymore and you should be able to craft another frame. (note: i may be snarky about some parts of the game, but junctions are an awesome tutorial. Forcing the player to use a new functionality before he can go to the next part of the game is a very good idea).

You can't use endgame standards to compare starting frames. Mag is "not that great" at endgame, but she's awesome as a starting frame. Nyx is awesome at endgame, but she's "not that great" as a starting frame (her CCs are great at high level, but less useful than killing everything at the beginning). Ash is good from beginning to end, because is 1 is good enough to kill people at the start, while invisibility and teleportation are awesome from beginning to end. Ember's 4 is useless at the start of the game (you don't have enough energy to maintain it; a "burst" ability would be better than a continuous ability you always activate/deactivate), but her fireball and her stun would make her an OK starting choice. Rhino starts shining on Saturn (he shines when CC are useful and enemies are doing a lot of damages; and he's not great against nullifiers, so he's not great on Jupiter/Europa), so he wouldn't be a great starter frame (he's awesome at midgame).

 

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You greatly overestimate the effectiveness of new players with underdeveloped frames, weapons and mods. Taking a hit is much more important than killing to a new player because they take a lot more hits than they give. Lest we forget, melee is one of the most powerful tools to a new player, which they find out pretty early,which usually does not end well for them for this same reason.

Melee is strong at low level. But Mag's pull is even stronger, and that's a thing players starting with Mag quickly discover. Low-level Mag doesn't need her huge shield when meleeing, because her opponents are lying on the ground and unable to attack.

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[Almagnus1]

8 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

So you think i'm not good, because i'm able to succeed all archwing missions with a non-potatoed non-max level arvchwing using a non-potatoed non-optimal weapon while you need several potatoes and rare mods to beat him?

Nah, I just did what I normally do:

Figure out how I would build a weapon for it's top end then do that.  That's why I have a Google Drive spreadsheet full of builds that I'm working on for all sorts of stuff, with the vast majority of the builds sortie ready.

Would it be any surprise that I'd do the same here?

Oh, and those rare mods that you are clearly jealous over increase Multishot, Crit Damage, and Fire Rate.  Just having those mods slotted will give the Grattler an edge over a status weapon that effectively has no status/damage mods.

As far as the Grattler goes, one potato was all it needed to go from meh to actual able to take down the golem... with one forma in it's (not surprisingly) faster.  It's still in progress, but it's one of the few archwing weapons I'm gonna max out so I'm ready for any harder archwing content coming down the line.

8 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Maybe it's far harder than I though and I'm the best archwing player in the world; or maybe you suck, it's hard to tell.

And this is proof that your ego > your skill.

[TheBrsrkr]

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Beginning with Mag is a thing I did, and it wasn't a long time ago. So yes, I know the resource you have.

At the same time, a friend of mine started the game with excal. Since he had more playtime than me, he created a second account with Volt (so my mag and his excal were the same level, and he was playing volt when i wasn't around). His feedback: "volt is far better than excal, because his 1 kills everything in front of him". Mag is even better at that aspect of the game (because no LoS, and because it's a strong CC if the targets don't die). Mag's 2 is also a better defensive ability than Volt's 3, at least at low level (I didn't play mag much at high level - i like squishy frame with strong abilities, but I prefer Nova or Octavia over Mag). Mag's abilities are very strong at low level, her 1 is perhaps the strongest 1 in the whole game at least at low level (silent large area damage + CC without LoS: how many 1 can do that?).

And all 3 pale in comparison to Rhino, because Rhino needs just 50 energy, which you get at the very start of the game, to become all but invincible for the rest of the match. It doesn't matter how much Mag can or can't kill if she gets killed doing it. And she will get killed. Slash props abound will drain her health slowly, and again new players don't really evade shots as much as they should. Combined with substandard modding and limited space for the mods they do have it really isn't a contest. 

 

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Pull costs 1 energy orb. And you begin missions with enough energy to cast it twice. Energy orbs are scarce, but not that scarce: you cast pull far more than 6/mission. And pull increase the probability of dropping energy orbs: more often than not, casting pull starts a virtuous circle, especially when you pull 4 enemies or more.

What about the themes in between? What about the enemies to your side and rear that you didn't pull? What if they're out of your range? What if you didn't get to pull 4 enemies? You get shot, and you go down. Earth Grineer maps do this especially, as do the Venus corpus maps. They attack from multiple directions over a large enough map that you can't, reliably, pull everything everywhere. That's what your gun's for. Meanwhile Rhino can cast once at the beginning of the match and breeze through the level. And even if he doesn't Breeze through on Iron Skin alone, he has that massive wall of health, shields and armor to hide behind. I know I'm exaggerating, but it's much easier for new players to fight when they have a wall of meat to hide behind. I'm not saying Mag is absolutely useless as a starter frame or anything, I'm saying that there are issues with it that are magnified by the fact that new players are new. 

 

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

That's not counting mods; streamline and energy siphon are available right after the first quest, and damaged streamline is available during the first quest. A beginner won't have everything; but he'll have something. Maybe a (damaged) streamline, so pull costs less than 1 energy orb; maybe an energy siphon; maybe a (damaged) stretch, so his pull affects more enemies; maybe a (damaged) intensify, so his pull has a higher chance to drop energy orb. A beginner won't have enough endo to increase every mod, but again, he'll have enough to increase something.

First off, as you highlighted, these mods are damaged. A damaged Streamline takes the cost down by  12% at max, which will not let you recast pull more than once every 5 times. A damaged Stretch I can't remember the max of, but is still a limited increase. Damaged mods are not good mods. Anything you can put ilon Mag (besides stretch) would have a much greater impact on the effectiveness of Rhino than mag. Also, Energy Siphon? What new player is going to get one of those? You don't really get them till Saturn unless you're lucky, by which time you're good enough in the game to have figured out most of what to do. Then comes space for mods. A new player isn't going to be running around with a fully leveled or potatoed frame. We're talking levels 1-15here. They're not going to have the space for many mods, or the money to pump Endo into more than one or two mods. They'll pick redirection for shields, as they always do, Vitality for health,  as they always do, and either Streamline or intensify, and just stick on the rest the best they can,upgrading when possible. All of these things favor Rhino over Mag, because Rhino either has better base stats or gets more effective usage out of them. 

 

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

.ny beginner will also have several vitality and redirection, because those two mods drop literally everywhere. And they will quickly understand upping those two mods to level 4 is a good idea; beginners playing mag will quickly understand redirection is stronger than vitality, and they'll have a level 6/8 redirection before you have time to explain endo and the modding system. Beginners are beginners, they aren't stupid or incapacited: they may need guidance for un-intuitive stuff, not for obvious stuff like "Mag has a huge shield so multiplying it by 3 or 4 is a good idea". Therefore, Mag isn't that squishy for beginners. She can't do shieldless nightmare missions, otherwise she's fine.

First off, players get broken redirection and vitality at first, which they will then keep until they get the unbroken ones which they then have to level over. It's not a straight shot to Lvl 6 in those mods. Next is that rhino gets more  mileage off those 2 mods that Mag ever will. Rhino is just indisputably better in that regard. Level 6-8 redirection? No new player is going to have the mods or cash to get there before Saturn what with all the other costs they have to juggle. And new player are still going to level and use vitality on Mag because a) they don't know any better, and b) their shields die frequently enough for them to take significant health damage anyway. How are they going to fit it? They'll use all their available space, of course,and these mods are large enough to have a significant impact on the other power mods. 

 

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

You can't use endgame standards to compare starting frames. Mag is "not that great" at endgame, but she's awesome as a starting frame. Nyx is awesome at endgame, but she's "not that great" as a starting frame (her CCs are great at high level, but less useful than killing everything at the beginning). Ash is good from beginning to end, because is 1 is good enough to kill people at the start, while invisibility and teleportation are awesome from beginning to end. Ember's 4 is useless at the start of the game (you don't have enough energy to maintain it; a "burst" ability would be better than a continuous ability you always activate/deactivate), but her fireball and her stun would make her an OK starting choice. Rhino starts shining on Saturn (he shines when CC are useful and enemies are doing a lot of damages; and he's not great against nullifiers, so he's not great on Jupiter/Europa), so he wouldn't be a great starter frame (he's awesome at midgame).

Nyx would be bad as a starter frame, I honestly don't know why I said that. I'm not comparing endgame Mag to anything, I'm comparing a Mag with no mods to a rhino with no mods against the enemies they'll have to face. Rhino comes out on top because of the absolutely ridiculous amount of survivability he offers right off the bat. Rhino can steamroll  the first 4 planets with no effort and only begins to actually require some thought past Saturn. This is why he would be horrible as a starter frame, because he would encourage the wrong kind of gameplay to new players.  Nullifiers pose no problem to Rhino since he still has his health and shields to rely upon without iron skin and can be cheaply recasted as soon as the Nullifier  is dead. If Rhino were a starter, there would be no point to the other 3 because rhino would be the objective best choice to a new player. 

 

10 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Melee is strong at low level. But Mag's pull is even stronger, and that's a thing players starting with Mag quickly discover. Low-level Mag doesn't need her huge shield when meleeing, because her opponents are lying on the ground and unable to attack.

 

Let me tell you how that's gonna go. 

>Mag uses pull

>pulls 5-6 of 12 enemies

>runs up to one of them and starts chopping them with this sweet katana I got

>cut down 3 of them

>all the enemies I didn't pull start shooting me

>the ones who survive the pull get up and start shooting

>the enemies I didn't get to get up and start shooting 

>I use pull again 

>most of them die

>Crap my shield and almost half my health is gone

>kill the rest no problem

Compare that to what would happen to Rhino. 

>12 guys scattered across the room 

>Use Iron skin

>chop some dude with my sweet Katana

>everyone shoots at me

>I don't even care

>kill 5 of them

>Crap my Iron skin is gone 

>chop another 5 down, taking shield damage

>Crap my shield is gone

>kill the last 2 taking health damage

>have so much health I don't even care 

>recast Iron skin

>shield comes back

>deal with it.jpg

[KnightCole]

18 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Compare that to what would happen to Rhino. 

>12 guys scattered across the room 

>Use Iron skin

>chop some dude with my sweet Katana

>everyone shoots at me

>I don't even care

>kill 5 of them

>Crap my Iron skin is gone 

>chop another 5 down, taking shield damage

>Crap my shield is gone

>kill the last 2 taking health damage

>have so much health I don't even care 

>recast Iron skin

>shield comes back

>deal with it.jpg

Lol, until late game Rhino, Cast Iron skin, get it 2 shot, get knocked down, lose all your shield in 2 shots, get pulled in, shield cant regen, get shot up, get knocked down, die....

The Scattering is annoying as S#&$ to....mobs randomly thrown around the room, I spend the whole duration hunting around the room trying to find who I Knocked down, while getting shot by all the reinforcements.  I just wish stomp killed em all....not much of an ultimate. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by KnightCole

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 5/20/2017 at 3:14 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

And all 3 pale in comparison to Rhino, because Rhino needs just 50 energy, which you get at the very start of the game, to become all but invincible for the rest of the match. It doesn't matter how much Mag can or can't kill if she gets killed doing it. And she will get killed. Slash props abound will drain her health slowly, and again new players don't really evade shots as much as they should. Combined with substandard modding and limited space for the mods they do have it really isn't a contest. 

Let me put this straight: nobody cares about invincibility.

Limbo has a god-mode. And nobody cares. People complaining about Limbo aren't complaining about his god-mode.

Valkyr has invincibility, Wukong has pseudo-invincibility. And no one consider those two frames as top tier.

Nobody. Cares. About. Invincibility. Period.

Invincibility, as any power, is a tool. Like any other tool, the sole question is "does this allow a faster progression than some other tool I could use instead?". And the answer is "no", especially at low level.

The most useful and versatile ability you may get is "insta-kill everything". This tool doesn't exist at high level, so people have to use CC and tankyness and stuff. But this ability actually exists at low level, which renders any other ability useless (except movement abilities: once everything insta-dies, the only way to finish levels faster is to move faster). Including invincibility.

When new players get Limbo (he's obtainable before the Saturn junction), they toys around with his god mode, going into some nightmare mission where they should be insta-killed; after a few missions, either they they like the cataclysm and other abilities, either they don't play him any more. His god mode is not a factor for playing him.

Rhino is a good frame thanks of his CC and his damage boost. Remove those two abilities (in exchange for an actual invincibility) and he becomes a trash frame like wukong.

 

On 5/20/2017 at 3:14 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

Rhino comes out on top because of the absolutely ridiculous amount of survivability he offers right off the bat. Rhino can steamroll  the first 4 planets with no effort and only begins to actually require some thought past Saturn.

Awesome.

What frame doesn't steamroll the first 4 planet?

The question isn't "does this frame steamroll Mars?". The question is "how fast does this frame steamroll Mars?". And the answer doesn't put Rhino in a good position.

And you're wrong, Rhino require some though before Saturn. There are a lot of nullie on Jupiter and Europa. Rhino dies if he try to fight them like he fights everything else using the sweet katana he doesn't have at that point of the game. He enters a first bubble, loses his iron skin, recasts it, enters a second bubble, re-loses it, doesn't have any energy left, and dies.

 

On 5/20/2017 at 3:14 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

Let me tell you how that's gonna go. 

>Mag uses pull

>pulls 5-6 of 12 enemies

>runs up to one of them and starts chopping them with this sweet katana I got

>cut down 3 of them

>all the enemies I didn't pull start shooting me

>the ones who survive the pull get up and start shooting

>the enemies I didn't get to get up and start shooting 

>I use pull again 

>most of them die

>Crap my shield and almost half my health is gone

>kill the rest no problem

Compare that to what would happen to Rhino. 

>12 guys scattered across the room

[...]

>kill 5 of them

>Crap my Iron skin is gone 

>chop another 5 down, taking shield damage

>Crap my shield is gone

>kill the last 2 taking health damage

>have so much health I don't even care 

>recast Iron skin

>shield comes back

>deal with it.jpg

Now you're lying.

Mag kills the enemies faster, because she gathered them (Rhino has to run around searching for every enemy), and she damaged them with the pull; how comes Rhino kills 5 of them while Mag kills 3 in your example?

Mag has exactly the same shield as Rhino (... she has probably more, since she doesn't use a steel fiber and has more room for redirection; but let's pretend she has the same shield). How comes she lose more shield when 7 enemies are shooting at her (and 5 are lying down) than Rhino while 7 enemies are shooting at him (and 5 are dead) (i use the numbers from your example)?

And even if your numbers were right, at the end Mag is still alive and her enemies are dead. She accomplished it faster than Rhino, since she didn't have to move much and she damaged (or killed) enemies before agitating her pointy stick. Mag wins even in your poor example. Deal with it.

What's actually happening in the actual game (instead of some game you're imagining):

* On Ceres, Mag casts two pulls. Everyone's dead for 50 energy (same cost as Iron Skin). The end. Even if she doesn't have enough energy, enemies don't threaten her shield so she can do whatever Rhino can do.

* On Mars or lower, Mag casts 1 pull. Everyone's dead for 25 energy (half the cost of Iron Skin). The end.

* On Jupiter/Europa, nullies prevent Rhino from meleeing. Mag's pull insta-kill flying enemies and other hard-to-aim corpus drones (when not in bubble). The end.

 

On 5/19/2017 at 7:27 PM, Almagnus1 said:

Oh, and those rare mods that you are clearly jealous over

...

... OK, I have a serious question: are you a ret*rded? Because you sound ret*rded.

I have already completed all archwing content, including Altas. Why would I be jealous of someone who's still farming because he can't beat jordas, and who doesn't take any advice from someone who already did it? I can' understand what kind of reasoning makes you conclude I am jealous of your dumb farming.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[Zookes]

Loki, Excal, Mag was a nice selection I think. Must wonder why Volt was made to be a starter???

Thinking alternatives tho, maybe like this:

• Excal because poster-boy and easy to use. Flashy swords are fun also. Warrior class!
• Ember because easiest caster to use, much simpler compared with Mag. Fire is flashy and exciting with explosions happening also. Sorceress class!
• Loki because it is easy to understand and apply the powers, such as invisibility and decoy. Ash is not here because Excal does the swords already and Loki's funny head shape makes him interesting to contrast. Rogue class!

[AlphaPHENIX]

Excalibur should be kept as a starter for several reasons such as lore (him being the first frame) and gameplay(having a simple all-round kit)

I was gona say swap out Mag for Ember, but then I renembered what everyone does with Ember and would rather not have noobies develop bad habits so early on, which is why Frost and Rhino also aren't an option. As someone said earlier, thanks to the new tutorial the frame has to have a damage dealling first ability...which narrows down the pool quite a lot and frankly doesn't leave us with many good options, but I would say Valkyr.

Volt...I don't know if I want him swapped or not but, as bad as stealth is currently, some people still want to play as an actual ninja in a space ninja game. So even though I don't see him as a starter, Ash should be there.

This way we will have:

Maneurvability/Utility/CC/Damage (Slash Dash can be used as a second Bullet Jump)

Maneurvabilty/CC/Tank/Damage (Do not underestimate Rip Line)

Damage/Stealth/CC/Support (Yes you heard me, Support. Having invisibilty and a teleport makes it really easy to pick up downed team mates)

[OvisCaedo]

Hmm. While she probably still works, given the lauding of her 1 by itself by a poster in this thread, I do wonder if Mag's rework might have made her rather inappropriate as a starter frame. She was changed to add all sorts of combo-casting effects between abilities, but her base power pool is very unimpressive and a starting player isn't going to have immediate access to things like even basic Flow or Streamline.

I suppose her 1 has that built-in potential energy spawn mechanic, which I didn't even know existed until now, but I'm not convinced that would really support the sort of playstyle and skill interaction it seems like the rework wanted to push her towards.

though looking over again, I guess they really only made Magnetize interact with everything else...?

Edited May 22, 2017 by OvisCaedo

[Almagnus1]

7 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

...

... OK, I have a serious question: are you a ret*rded? Because you sound ret*rded.

I have already completed all archwing content, including Altas. Why would I be jealous of someone who's still farming because he can't beat jordas, and who doesn't take any advice from someone who already did it? I can' understand what kind of reasoning makes you conclude I am jealous of your dumb farming.

Giving someone advice on how to do something they have already done and treating them like they haven't done it is insulting at best.

Why do you assume I haven't also beaten the Jordas Golem (and did so LONG before this post)?

Why do you assume I haven't also farmed Atlas?

These assumption you have made about me are why I'm treating you like some some insecure idiot troll.

If you actually had skill, you wouldn't need to rip on someone who you've imagined to be worse than they actually are.

[TheBrsrkr]

11 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Let me put this straight: nobody cares about invincibility.

Thatswhereyourewrongkiddo.jpg

The three biggest issues to any new player are surviving, modding and money. No frame can help with the money, and every frame can have the same mods with different effects. Survival is one of the reasons that Excalibur rules the new player experience (but the main reason really is that he's the first choice and they say he's balanced). Why is killing not an issue? For all the moaning people do about the start of the game, you don't really need that much in the way of weapons to succeed. By the time you're off Mars, a new player has a gun of some renown like the regular Braton, Boltor or Karak that's perfectly serviceable till higher planets and the Latron domination. Sure, Mag can pull things and make them die, but everyone can shoot things and make them die. The point isn't the killing, it's the surviving long enough to do the killing. That is why invincibility is important to, and I have to stress this again, newplayers. I'm not talking about past Jupiter or Saturn, by which point players have enough skill and sense for it to not be as important anymore. I'm talking about the new guys. 

11 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

The most useful and versatile ability you may get is "insta-kill everything". This tool doesn't exist at high level, so people have to use CC and tankyness and stuff. But this ability actually exists at low level, which renders any other ability useless (except movement abilities: once everything insta-dies, the only way to finish levels faster is to move faster). Including invincibility.

It doesn't matter how fast you kill in low levels because a) there just aren't that many enemies, b) Enemies still shoot at you since your range isn't great because modding, and c) guns are both preferable and perfectly serviceable to new players at no cost. Even with pull, players will shoot things. Even with pull, players will Melee things. The problem is that they get hit and die doing these things. They will do them anyway. Mag is not the best frame to do these things. They will do them anyway. Rhino is the best frame (at that level) to do these things.. Therefore, Rhino would be, overall, a better starter frame than Mag. I already outlined why he shouldn't be, but that's the fact of things. 

 

11 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Awesome.

What frame doesn't steamroll the first 4 planet?

The question isn't "does this frame steamroll Mars?". The question is "how fast does this frame steamroll Mars?". And the answer doesn't put Rhino in a good position.

And you're wrong, Rhino require some though before Saturn. There are a lot of nullie on Jupiter and Europa. Rhino dies if he try to fight them like he fights everything else using the sweet katana he doesn't have at that point of the game. He enters a first bubble, loses his iron skin, recasts it, enters a second bubble, re-loses it, doesn't have any energy left, and dies.

The current starter frames don't steamroll the first 4 planets. Rhino would. Even Excalibur and yes, Mag,  will have some tough fights on Venus and Mars. Rhino doesn't have tough fights. Iron skin, at level 0,has 400 health and absorbs damage for a short time. 400+ extra health mostly on command, instantly, is a godsend for any player. Even without it, he has the same shield as mag and twice the health, along with way more armor. He has more health and shields than Excalibur and comparable armor. Volt doesn't even compete. THAT is steamrolling. 

 

As for nullifiers, now you're just insulting the intelligence of the new players. They'll notice that the bubble nullifies powers, as they would with any frame, and they'll shoot it. Simple. 

When I say sweet katana, I mean the Skana. New players Melee. A lot. I don't know why (I have a few ideas), but they do. They'll Melee with any frame they have for the sheer joy of it. This applies to every frame, not just Rhino. I could just as easily say "you can't pull nullifiers, therefore Mag would just die meeting them" and T would be just as good an argument as yours (which it isnt). And even then, Rhino still has that massive health and shield pool to fall back on, making this a moot point. 

12 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Now you're lying.

Mag kills the enemies faster, because she gathered them (Rhino has to run around searching for every enemy), and she damaged them with the pull; how comes Rhino kills 5 of them while Mag kills 3 in your example?

Mag has exactly the same shield as Rhino (... she has probably more, since she doesn't use a steel fiber and has more room for redirection; but let's pretend she has the same shield). How comes she lose more shield when 7 enemies are shooting at her (and 5 are lying down) than Rhino while 7 enemies are shooting at him (and 5 are dead) (i use the numbers from your example)?

And even if your numbers were right, at the end Mag is still alive and her enemies are dead. She accomplished it faster than Rhino, since she didn't have to move much and she damaged (or killed) enemies before agitating her pointy stick. Mag wins even in your poor example. Deal with it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. 

A miscalculation on my part, I underestimated pulls effects, but even if it was 5 it would change absolutely nothing at the conclusion. Not many new players rank a non broken Steel Fiber, and even if they did they would still have more EHP than Mag, but they don't so this is a moot point. New players invariably do Redirection and Vitality first,which gives Rhino the same shields yet a lot more effective health. She could lose the same or even LESS shields than Rhino, and Rhino would STILL come out on top because of his massive health and armor pool along with Iron skin. 

 

Yes, Mag is still alive, but at what cost? Half her low health is gone. Rhino is still alive too, but even if he had lost the same amount of health as mag, (which is unlikely due to armor) Rhino still comes our in top because the rest of the mission is still there. There will be more enemies in more rooms shooting at you and Mag now has to be a lot more careful while Rhino.... doesn't. Doesn't even care. Iron skin is back up, they have the same shield to hide behind and he STILL has way more health than her. That's not a win. 

12 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

What's actually happening in the actual game (instead of some game you're imagining):

* On Ceres, Mag casts two pulls. Everyone's dead for 50 energy (same cost as Iron Skin). The end. Even if she doesn't have enough energy, enemies don't threaten her shield so she can do whatever Rhino can do.

* On Mars or lower, Mag casts 1 pull. Everyone's dead for 25 energy (half the cost of Iron Skin). The end.

* On Jupiter/Europa, nullies prevent Rhino from meleeing. Mag's pull insta-kill flying enemies and other hard-to-aim corpus drones (when not in bubble). The end.

First off, Ceres is not a starter planet, and so is absolutely useless to your argument,abd if you think Ceres level enemies aren't a threat to your shield, well, we'll see how that goes for you. 

 

Next up, the reason everything isn't dead in Mars, which we've covered before, is you don't have a fully ranked frame or mods. This means you have a fraction of both the range and power. Things will survive. You  will be shot. Most importantly, new players are still new and will not avoid as they could/should. They will die. We're not talking about me or you here. We both know what we're doing. We're talking about your little brother who saw you playing an awesome ninja game and wants in. Except you're not helping him. 

 

What is your obsession with Rhino and melee? ALL new players melee, with EVERY frame. Rhino isn't special in that regard, he'll just be better at it than the others because of his survivability. Mag can't pull the bubble either, so I don't get your point. Powers don't work in the bubble? Quelle surprise! He could just shoot the bubble like everyone else, you know. The only thing that changes us that he basically has a buffer for the same shield mag has, along with way more health and armor. Seeing a pattern here? 

12 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

.. OK, I have a serious question: are you a ret*rded? Because you sound ret*rded.

You two should probably stop this conversation as you're both toeing the line for a warning point right now. What does Archwing have to do with this conversation anyway? 

[Almagnus1]

10 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You two should probably stop this conversation as you're both toeing the line for a warning point right now.

You're probably right on that point.

10 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

What does Archwing have to do with this conversation anyway? 

Archwing got brought into the discussion because someone suggested Atlas as a starter frame.  I countered that he was a quest reward frame [for the Jordas Precept quest], and that Atlas is actually good incentive for players to get leveled up in archwing and mutual stupidity ensued.

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 5/22/2017 at 11:53 AM, Zookes said:

Loki, Excal, Mag was a nice selection I think. Must wonder why Volt was made to be a starter???

The current tutorial/storyline requires a damaging ability as your 1. Vor wakes you up from your cryopod, you have no weapon and you're surrounded by grineers (and there's a message "press 1 to activate your ability"). Loki, Nyx, Equinox, etc can't complete the tutorial for now.

Ash would be a better selection than Loki anyway: he's more well-rounded, he's good at stealth and good at shooting stuff. Loki is great when you have another frame capable of non-stealth play; i'm not sure he's great when he's your only frame.

Ash has only one problem as a starter frame: his invisibility isn't usable as-is. 2 seconds invi (that's what you get at level 3 without mod) isn't weak, it's useless. Every ability of a starter frame should have some use without mods at the level you obtain it: getting a new ability should be exciting when you starts the game. Other than that, Ash would be a great starter frame.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 11:59 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

Thatswhereyourewrongkiddo.jpg

The three biggest issues to any new player are surviving, modding and money.

Surviving isn't an issue at low level.

You know how much HP and shield you need to stay at max efficiency? 1 HP and 0 shield. You aren't more efficient with 3000 HP and 1000 shield.

Grineers on Ceres have high difficulties destroying Mag's shield - assuming Mag isn't afk and do something to kill them instead of just waiting her death. Having 1000 shield on Ceres is easy for Mag, it is more than enough. Who cares she has less life than Rhino? She's still at max efficiency until her life reach 0, and her life doesn't reach 0, her life doesn't even decrease. While she has life, she's more efficient than Rhino. Rhino has a braton, that's great I guess, but it requires aiming and it kills one enemy at a time. That's two step behind pull. Rhino has a skana, it requires walking to close range. That's one step behind pull (can the skana hit several enemies at once?).

even if surviving was an issue, when low-level Mag spend some the time approaching a low-level grineer or non-nullie corpus within melee range, she becomes invincible. That's what magnetize effectively do: it prevents any incoming bullet from hitting her while she's inside the bubble (low-level melee enemies aren't a factor, they are insta-killed by her skana). When Magnetize ends, it explodes and everyone dies - Mag doesn't even have to re-cast it if she didn't have the time to kill everyone. Low-level Mag is better than low-level Rhino at Rhino game - this doesn't come into play often because she has a better option, that's why I didn't talk about it, but that's also a thing.

 

Quote

Next up, the reason everything isn't dead in Mars, which we've covered before, is you don't have a fully ranked frame or mods. This means you have a fraction of both the range and power. Things will survive. You  will be shot. Most importantly, new players are still new and will not avoid as they could/should. They will die. We're not talking about me or you here. We both know what we're doing. We're talking about your little brother who saw you playing an awesome ninja game and wants in. Except you're not helping him. 

Ok, let's see. If your little brother is on Mars, he has:

* completed 2 quests (Vor's prize and Once awake).

* defeated 13 eximus (3 on earth and 10 on Venus).

* completed a rescue mission.

* killed two non-quest bosses.

* completed 10 waves of defense.

* killed 150 frontier grineers.

* completed enough starchart missions to reach 3 junctions and 2 bosses.

* installed 4 mods on a single weapon or frame.

Yeah, i guess you're technically right: technically, it is possible to do all this stuff, and not gain enough affinity to level up your frame to 15+. Technically, it is possible to put 4 mods on a level 6 starting frame (using only 2-drain mods and the two polarities of your frame) or a level 8 starting weapon.

you're technically right, but more often than not your little brother's frame will be level 15-20 when he reaches Mars (and level 30 when he reaches Ceres). His frame is over-level, that's why his abilities insta-kill everything and he can't die unless he's afk.

New players suck at dodging because they don't need to. They don't need to because enemies can't kill them. Enemy can't kill them because new players are over-level. They are over-level because that's how the junction system works. The game is not hard for them because they suck at dodging: they suck at dodging because the game is easy for them.

Note: Venus junction also require 20 mods. Anyone playing on Venus has a redirection and a vitality, because there's no way you can obtain 20 mods but no redirection and vitality. Venus Junction requires your little brother to upgrade two mods to level 2, and to put some mods on his frame or his weapon. If your little brother has completed the very first junction of the game, he has a redirection mod and he understands how the modding system works.

Having redirection + understanding how the modding system works + being over-level = Mag doesn't die.

To be fair, Volt doesn't die either, even Nyx or Banshee wouldn't die. Any frame, and i mean: any frame (even the ones that don't exist right know, with low health, low shield, low armor, and no useful abilities), steamrolls the game until Jupiter - nullies and blue orbs of death are another story, as are napalms on Saturn.

Surviving isn't an issue at low level.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 7:14 PM, Almagnus1 said:

Giving someone advice on how to do something they have already done and treating them like they haven't done it is insulting at best.

Why do you assume I haven't also beaten the Jordas Golem (and did so LONG before this post)?

Why do you assume I haven't also farmed Atlas?

These assumption you have made about me are why I'm treating you like some some insecure idiot troll.

If you actually had skill, you wouldn't need to rip on someone who you've imagined to be worse than they actually are.

OK, so you've farmed jordas. And you're still farming to improve your archwing.

For what content are you improving your archwing exactly? Why do you assume I'm jealous of some random farmer who doesn't even know why he's farming?

Non-potatoed amesha with non-potatoed cyngas and some weak mods is already able to beat all current archwing content. Solo. That's a fact. Nobody knows if grattler will be useful against some unknown new content (grattler is very weak against corpus). That's a fact. A non-potatoed poorly-modded cyngas insta-kill every current archwing enemy except for grineer carrier, shield dargyn, and jordas; grattler can't insta-kill anything because it has poor accuracy and some travel time. That's two or three facts. Jordas is a punching ball. That's a fact. Fighting jordas again after you got Atlas is dumb. This last point is subjective, but at no point you explained why you try to optimize against a punching ball: I naturally assumed you wasn't able to beat him right now.

As for insecurity, what was your first contribution again? Oh, yeah, a video about how good excal can be at high level. In a thread about starter frames. "Hey, please, look at me, I know a video about high level play! Look at all those rare mods i got please please please look, they aren't given with the starter frame but i have them! I know nothing about low-level play and I can't make any useful contribution in a subject about starter frame, but please, please, look at my high level build, please, look at me, look at me, please, please please". And now your contribution is "oh, look at all my rare archwing mods and my grattler build! I don't care if it's useless in the current game - and even sub-par against corpus - , just look at me! people who disagree with me are just jealous of my rare mods, look at those rare mods, look at me please look at me!"

You're OoT's Navi's level of attention whoring.

Edited May 24, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Surviving isn't an issue at low level.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the new player experience. If anyone playing the game anywhere would die, it would be new players at the beginning of the game. This is true for every game in existence with a death mechanic. New players die to learn, and learn not to die. 

 

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Grineers on Ceres 

Stop. Stop right there. CERES is one of the LAST planets on the starchart. I played Warframe for 9 months before I even got to Ceres because I just didn't  care about most of the starchart anymore. Ceres is NOT a planet where BRAND NEW PLAYERS end up unless they're being taxied to Draco or something, in which case they don't even have to do anything. This has absolutely no bearing on the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. 

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

 

even if surviving was an issue, when low-level Mag spend some the time approaching a low-level grineer or non-nullie corpus within melee range, she becomes invincible. That's what magnetize effectively do: it prevents any incoming bullet from hitting her while she's inside the bubble (low-level melee enemies aren't a factor, they are insta-killed by her skana). When Magnetize ends, it explodes and everyone dies - Mag doesn't even have to re-cast it if she didn't have the time to kill everyone. Low-level Mag is better than low-level Rhino at Rhino game - this doesn't come into play often because she has a better option, that's why I didn't talk about it, but that's also a thing.

Now you're just selling dreams. A level 20 mag has a 14 meter range on Magnetize, unmodded, that absorbs projectiles in a 3m range. For your invincibility to work, she has to be next to the enemy,which she won't be for long because your melee is going to kill that enemy, then you have to leave the range to target the other enemies. And get shot. And die. Meanwhile iron skin ALWAYS applies to EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE. With the SAME shields, and MORE health and armor. 

 

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

.,ok let's see. If your little brother is on Mars, he has:

* completed 2 quests (Vor's prize and Once awake).

* defeated 13 eximus (3 on earth and 10 on Venus).

* completed a rescue mission.

* killed two non-quest bosses.

* completed 10 waves of defense.

* killed 150 frontier grineers.

* completed enough starchart missions to reach 3 junctions and 2 bosses.

* installed 4 mods on a single weapon or frame.

None of this actually means anything of importance. All a player has actually done is meet the infested and finished the tutorial. That's not really progress,  that's till the introduction. That doesn't make them much less of a new player. They still haven't crafted more than 2 weapons. Bullet jump is still a problem to do. When and where to use melee and guns and powers is still a blurry concept. This indicates nothing. 

 

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

.

Yeah, i guess you're technically right: technically, it is possible to do all this stuff, and not gain enough affinity to level up your frame to 15+. Technically, it is possible to put 4 mods on a level 6 starting frame (using only 2-drain mods and the two polarities of your frame) or a level 8 starting weapon.

you're technically right, but more often than not your little brother's frame will be level 15-20 when he reaches Mars (and level 30 when he reaches Ceres). His frame is over-level, that's why his abilities insta-kill everything and he can't die unless he's afk.

I am assuming that these frames are level 15-20. You are assuming that new players are better than they actually are and that Mag just sticking on Redirection means that any player can play as recklessly as only new players can and get away with it, which they can't, unless they play with Rhino. They will die. Often. 

 

1 hour ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

New players suck at dodging because they don't need to. They don't need to because enemies can't kill them. Enemy can't kill them because new players are over-level. They are over-level because that's how the junction system works. The game is not hard for them because they suck at dodging: they suck at dodging because the game is easy for them.

Note: Venus junction also require 20 mods. Anyone playing on Venus has a redirection and a vitality, because there's no way you can obtain 20 mods but no redirection and vitality. Venus Junction requires your little brother to upgrade two mods to level 2, and to put some mods on his frame or his weapon. If your little brother has completed the very first junction of the game, he has a redirection mod and he understands how the modding system works.

Having redirection + understanding how the modding system works + being over-level = Mag doesn't die.

Have you ever actually played with a new player? The only way you can think this is true is if you've never seen new players at work. You can't honestly think new players get to stroll around Venus with impunity. 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

None of this actually means anything of importance. All a player has actually done is meet the infested and finished the tutorial. That's not really progress,  that's till the introduction. That doesn't make them much less of a new player. They still haven't crafted more than 2 weapons. Bullet jump is still a problem to do. When and where to use melee and guns and powers is still a blurry concept. This indicates nothing.

All of this means they have gained affinity. Affinity means they gained levels. "They gained level" means they don't come to Mars with a level 5 Mag. And since the junction system force them to find a redirection and to understand how to use it, they arrive on Mars with 600+ shield.

Kill 150 grineer = affinity. Do 10 waves in defense = affinity. Succeed a rescue mission = affinity. Do anything = affinity. Affinity = level up. Complete junctions = do stuff = affinity = be over-level on Venus, Mercure, Mars. (and Phobos and Ceres, but apparently it isn't low level for some reason).

What is so hard to grasp?

 

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Have you ever actually played with a new player? The only way you can think this is true is if you've never seen new players at work. You can't honestly think new players get to stroll around Venus with impunity. 

i have seen... Me?

The first time i died was... On mercure, i think, because of some environmental steam dealing damage (i didn't know steam was dealing damage and i died). The second time i died was on earth, with a friend, at the 15th wave of defense (my friend was using excal. He died as well - we were too low level for 15 wave of defense. Rhino also would have died, since he doesn't have an actual god-mode, only an HP-buffer). and then, on Jupiter, or maybe not.

And you have to know something: I suck at FPS. Right now, I still suck at warframe. I have played enough FPS to know I suck, and in Warframe, I just have to compare my end-mission stats with anyone else's stats (anyone else with a similar equipment as mine - of course i have better stats than people with a weak weapon or people using unairu). But Warframe is very easy/i can compensate part of my suckyness with a better weapon, that's why i can handle high-level content - and that's why I didn't die much at the start of the game.

How do I know mag's 1 is awesone? Because when you have started the game with Mag and you craft Ash, you feel his 1 sucks. Then you craft limbo and you feel his 1 suck (before rework, i don't know now). Then you craft nekros prime (it requires lith and meso only, it's doable when you have access to phobos with some luck) and you feel his 1 suck. Then you craft Nova... At some point you understand: other 1 aren't sucking, but Mag's pull have set your expectations far too high.

Of course this is a low-level feeling, and pull has some issues at mid/high level. But, hey, we're talking about starter frames, not high level exploits.

 

I think you are subject to a confirmation bias: when you see someone dying stupidly, you assume he's a beginner; when you see someone not dying, you assume he's a seasoned player. I can ensure you, people are still dying stupidly during sorties and other high-level content. I myself am part of "people", I often die stupidly with my non-potatoed Ivara in spy sortie (in situations my Mag could probably endure - but i suck at spying, i'm not able to open a vault with another frame than Ivara).

 

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the new player experience. If anyone playing the game anywhere would die, it would be new players at the beginning of the game. This is true for every game in existence with a death mechanic. New players die to learn, and learn not to die.

This would be true if Warframe was the only existing game in the world. except it isn't. It uses similar mechanics as many other games.

You know how to die and not die before you have the control in hand, even before you install the game. You know how to die and not die when you see the very first image (in my case, that's when Steam was promoting the game).

Then you die when you're pushing the limits - like my friend and me in the 15th wave of defense. But, hey, if you're pushing the limits, you'll die eventually - with Rhino or with any frame.

Edited May 24, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[Almagnus1]

4 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

OK, so you've farmed jordas. And you're still farming to improve your archwing.

For what content are you improving your archwing exactly? Why do you assume I'm jealous of some random farmer who doesn't even know why he's farming?

Non-potatoed amesha with non-potatoed cyngas and some weak mods is already able to beat all current archwing content. Solo. That's a fact. Nobody knows if grattler will be useful against some unknown new content (grattler is very weak against corpus). That's a fact. A non-potatoed poorly-modded cyngas insta-kill every current archwing enemy except for grineer carrier, shield dargyn, and jordas; grattler can't insta-kill anything because it has poor accuracy and some travel time. That's two or three facts. Jordas is a punching ball. That's a fact. Fighting jordas again after you got Atlas is dumb. This last point is subjective, but at no point you explained why you try to optimize against a punching ball: I naturally assumed you wasn't able to beat him right now.

As for insecurity, what was your first contribution again? Oh, yeah, a video about how good excal can be at high level. In a thread about starter frames. "Hey, please, look at me, I know a video about high level play! Look at all those rare mods i got please please please look, they aren't given with the starter frame but i have them! I know nothing about low-level play and I can't make any useful contribution in a subject about starter frame, but please, please, look at my high level build, please, look at me, look at me, please, please please". And now your contribution is "oh, look at all my rare archwing mods and my grattler build! I don't care if it's useless in the current game - and even sub-par against corpus - , just look at me! people who disagree with me are just jealous of my rare mods, look at those rare mods, look at me please look at me!"

You're OoT's Navi's level of attention whoring.

And for this response, you deserve:

[Almagnus1]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Stop. Stop right there. CERES is one of the LAST planets on the starchart. I played Warframe for 9 months before I even got to Ceres because I just didn't  care about most of the starchart anymore. Ceres is NOT a planet where BRAND NEW PLAYERS end up unless they're being taxied to Draco or something, in which case they don't even have to do anything. This has absolutely no bearing on the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. 

Now you're just selling dreams. A level 20 mag has a 14 meter range on Magnetize, unmodded, that absorbs projectiles in a 3m range. For your invincibility to work, she has to be next to the enemy,which she won't be for long because your melee is going to kill that enemy, then you have to leave the range to target the other enemies. And get shot. And die. Meanwhile iron skin ALWAYS applies to EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE. With the SAME shields, and MORE health and armor. 

Um.... Ceres is between Mars and Jupiter, you're thinking of Sedna >.>

[Viedra_Lavinova]

I would argue replacing Mag with Ember. Also, maybe adding Inaros because how survivable and easy he is to mod.

1. Mag is only really useful against one faction, corpus, still.
2. Both take some mods to be somewhat at potential.
3. Ember is great for clearing out early game mobs.
4. Mag is generally considered the worst of the current starters. (and polarize and crush need buffs)
5. Fire cc is always more viable than magnetic.

Rhino exists to guide players how to build their first frame and settle them into the game, he should never be a starter. We have to remember than new players have barely any mods or knowledge to play the game.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Viedra_Lavinova
new players and mods

[Iccotak]

I would argue two female and two male frames.
Equality of genders (not that it matters since they are not really you)
Each one offers a different way to play. 
The problem being that Excalibur is the best choice for new players.

Excalibur is perfect,
literally one of the best Frames in the game. Can do the entire Star chart with him.  
I would not mind if Excalibur was the only frame in the game that had male and female options.

(I know that Nyx looks like the female version of Excalibur)

[Iccotak]

Also stop suggesting Atlas. 
You like him, that is understandable. But that doesn't mean he should automatically be available. 
Atlas is a mix class.
The point of beginning frames is to introduce new players to the basics.
There are Basic Classes and then there are mixed classes.
Basic classes give the player an understanding of the game, mixed classes allow them to explore a larger variety of play styles.

If you have a problem with the quest, then start another topic and bring to light your problems with its mechanics.
Don't like the farming of juggernauts and archwing bosses? Discuss it in another thread.