The Synoid Heliocor still needs all the help it can get.

[Jackviator]

I think we can all agree, the Synoid Heliocor isn't exactly in the best of places right now. For all intents and purposes, it's a worse version of the base Heliocor; far less crit chance, lower base damage, and the only redeeming factor is a passable at best 20% base Status chance, a .3 increase to channeling damage, and a higher attack speed. Some might argue that the Status chance makes it an ok side-grade to the original, but frankly, hammers in general are just too slow for a Status build to be even remotely helpful on them, and even with the increased swing speed, it's still too slow.

So, I'd like to provide a couple potential solutions as to how the stats of the weapon could be fixed:

---

• Option 1: Increase the base attack speed even more (to, say, 1.18-1.25ish), change the base damage to be purely Electricity or Heat damage instead of IPS, and give it a higher (somewhere from 35-40%ish) base status chance.

This option would allow the Heliocor to actually perform as a pretty good status weapon. The pure Electricity/Heat damage would allow it to be modded for whatever purely elemental stats the wielder wants (and frankly would make more sense than having it be mainly Impact; it's an energy-hammer, after all), and the high attack speed would allow it to stack up a usable amount of procs per second.

---

• Option 2: Keep the attack speed and Status chance, but increase the base critical chance back up to the original's 25%.

The simpler of the two potential changes; simply make it into a decent Crit-focused melee weapon, as the original was, with the added option of potentially modding it for a hybrid of Crit and Status.

---

Either of these two changes would allow the weapon to be much more viable at Sortie-levels, and make it actually worthy of the 125k standing it costs to aquire. Because right now, it just isn't, and I'd like that to change.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Jackviator

[Tali]

Option 1 with base damage as electricity or heat makes it quite unique to the normal Heliocor and increases the overall attractiveness, with the other buffs, of the weapon itself (as it already have the fancy design to go along with). TBH that would be a insta gib from me.

[Jackviator]

8 hours ago, Aeon66 said:

Option 1 with base damage as electricity or heat makes it quite unique to the normal Heliocor and increases the overall attractiveness, with the other buffs, of the weapon itself (as it already have the fancy design to go along with). TBH that would be a insta gib from me.

Yeah the 1st is what I would choose too, given the choice; the game needs more good Status weapons.

[Sintag]

3 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Yeah the 1st is what I would choose too, given the choice; the game needs more good Status weapons.

Let me give you a (not exhaustive) list, then!

• Ogris
• Ignis [Wraith]
• Karak Wraith
• Prisma Obex
• Twin Bosalk
• Glaxion
• Prisma Grakata
• Euphona Prime (Alt-fire)
• Lex Prime
• Akstiletto Prime
• Ninkondi
• Shaku
• Lacera
• Lecta
• Tigris Prime
• Strun Wraith

So many to pick from and I haven't even covered the entire list.

[Jackviator]

54 minutes ago, Sintag said:

Let me give you a (not exhaustive) list, then!

• Ogris
• Ignis [Wraith]
• Karak Wraith
• Prisma Obex
• Twin Bosalk
• Glaxion
• Prisma Grakata
• Euphona Prime (Alt-fire)
• Lex Prime
• Akstiletto Prime
• Ninkondi
• Shaku
• Lacera
• Lecta
• Tigris Prime
• Strun Wraith

So many to pick from and I haven't even covered the entire list.

Some of those those don't hit fast enough to be of any use proccing anything reliably (Ogris, Lex), beam weapons aren't good status weapons by default due to how the status/second mechanics work, shotguns are only good status weapons at 100% status chance, and a few of those weapons are stronger when built for crits or a crit status hybrid build. (Euphona, Prisma Grakata, Peisma Obex, Lex P, Akstilletos).

Crit is king in this game, because Crit doesn't have a lot of requirements. Just a decent crit chance and you're good. But Status requires high attack speed if a melee or assault rifle type weapon, for the weapon in question to not be a beam weapon, for a shotgun to not be under 30% status chance without a Status Riven to back it up, etc.

So no, we don't have a lot of good pure status weapons, because of how specific the requirements are.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Jackviator

[Sintag]

13 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Some of those those don't hit fast enough to be of any use proccing anything reliably (Ogris, Lex), beam weapons aren't good status weapons by default due to how the status/second mechanics work, shotguns are only good status weapons at 100% status chance, and a few of those weapons are stronger when built for crits or a crit status hybrid build. (Euphona, Prisma Grakata, Peisma Obex, Lex P, Akstilletos).

Crit is king in this game, because Crit doesn't have a lot of requirements. Just a decent crit chance and you're good. But Status requires high attack speed if a melee or assault rifle type weapon, for the weapon in question to not be a beam weapon, for a shotgun to not be under 30% status chance without a Status Riven to back it up, etc.

So no, we don't have a lot of good pure status weapons, because of how specific the requirements are.

To run counter:

 

Ogris can proc on crowds thanks to it's blast radius, only really put Lex up there due to it's high status chance in the first place (It can be both crit and status, honest!), Glaxion in particular, unless I'm wrong, forces Cold procs onto whatever you target, both shotties I mentioned can reach 100% status chance, and I'm not about to fight you on that last one; That's why I set them there, the status can act as a massive compliment for (Or in the case of Euphona since it's buckshot is Slash-based, outright take over for) critical hits.  And even then, just modding Prisma Obex for Status, you hit 100%, you have that speed, mod with Blast and with Entropy Detonation and bam.  Finishers mean explosions mean knockdown means finishers.

 

...as one example anyways.

 

UPDATE: I'm wrong on the Glaxion.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Sintag
Research failure.

[low1991]

On 5/17/2017 at 3:15 AM, Jackviator said:

I think we can all agree, the Synoid Heliocor isn't exactly in the best of places right now. For all intents and purposes, it's a worse version of the base Heliocor; far less crit chance, lower base damage, and the only redeeming factor is a passable at best 20% base Status chance, a .3 increase to channeling damage, and a higher attack speed. Some might argue that the Status chance makes it an ok side-grade to the original, but frankly, hammers in general are just too slow for a Status build to be even remotely helpful on them, and even with the increased swing speed, it's still too slow.

Or option 3:

• Each hit by Synoid Heliocor now scan the enemies at 25% chances. Finishing moves do a complete scan.
• Each scans now yield that [symicurm' standing] at cost of a scanner charges. Affected by scanner' upgrades.
• Holding/equiping Synoid Heliocor give player a AOE scan on scan-able plants.

[Jackviator]

29 minutes ago, low1991 said:

Or option 3:

• Each hit by Synoid Heliocor now scan the enemies at 25% chances. Finishing moves do a complete scan.
• Each scans now yield that [symicurm' standing] at cost of a scanner charges. Affected by scanner' upgrades.
• Holding/equiping Synoid Heliocor give player a AOE scan on scan-able plants.

...But what does that have to do with its combat potential? That's kinda the point of the thread.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Jackviator

[low1991]

9 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

...But what does that have to do with its combat potential? That's kinda the point of the thread.

To me. Not of have to do with combat potential. If all has to do with DPS/ dmg/ etc/ etc. All melee/weapons will be the same... no point releasing new ones, when the new will over shadow the old. This the problem with WF community... Dmg/Dmg/DPS/DPS/CC/Spike dmg are what made the brain cells.

[Jackviator]

4 minutes ago, low1991 said:

To me. Not of have to do with combat potential. If all has to do with DPS/ dmg/ etc/ etc. All melee/weapons will be the same... no point releasing new ones, when the new will over shadow the old. This the problem with WF community... Dmg/Dmg/DPS/DPS/CC/Spike dmg are what made the brain cells.

It already has a couple cool mechanics tied to it (creating specters, scanning enemies). It's just that it's not viable at sortie levels. There's no need to not have both cool mechanics and for it to also be a good weapon; after all, look what just happened with the Panthera, Buzlok, and all the rest of the weapons that got buffed. All of them had cool, unique mechanics tied to them, it's just that they sucked in combat. So DE listened to the player base, and buffed them. Now people are actually using them, which wasn't happening before, because they sucked hard when it came to combat.

To reiterate: the weapon is already cool and unique. I don't see why it can't also be viable at higher levels.

[low1991]

6 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

It already has a couple cool mechanics tied to it (creating specters, scanning enemies). It's just that it's not viable at sortie levels. There's no need to not have both cool mechanics and for it to also be a good weapon; after all, look what just happened with the Panthera, Buzlok, and all the rest of the weapons that got buffed. All of them had cool, unique mechanics tied to them, it's just that they sucked in combat. So DE listened to the player base, and buffed them. Now people are actually using them, which wasn't happening before, because they sucked hard when it came to combat.

To reiterate: the weapon is already cool and unique. I don't see why it can't also be viable at higher levels.

Your statement can be viewed as "players use Synoid Simcular" + Mirage'HoM. Or Mirage + Telso combo. Because players like their damage and cool unique mechanics tied to them. Players are actually using them for missions/ sortie/ raids includes.

To bold: Panthera is weak to me, even if DE buffs the damage. Same for Buzlok. The problem lies in how the mechanics work. If Panthera have some other chain saw feature, and a instant tagging for buzlok, maybe it's worth a second try.

To underline: cool yes. Unique? how is a weapon unique if it's gonna fight in the field called DPS? And NOT all weapon should be viable at sorties/ raids/ endless at 1hr+ or 40waves etc. (assumed by u saying higher levels)

[Jackviator]

1 hour ago, low1991 said:

Your statement can be viewed as "players use Synoid Simcular" + Mirage'HoM. Or Mirage + Telso combo. Because players like their damage and cool unique mechanics tied to them

......wat?

In what way can it be read like that? Because I'm not seeing it.

All I want is for the weapon to be a reasonably usable hammer with scaling functionality (be it crit or status) at Sortie levels. I'm not asking for it to be as OP as those combos you mentioned used to be, I just want it to not be a bad weapon scaling-wise, because frankly that's just where it is at the moment; it needs a buff.

1 hour ago, low1991 said:

NOT all weapon should be viable at sorties/ raids/ endless at 1hr+ or 40waves etc.

Why not? Seriously, why? Other than things like the Mk-1 weapons, (which are obviously meant for newer players to get rid of asap), why shouldn't any weapon in this game be Sortie-viable if a player is willing to put the time, effort, and Forma into a weapon?

Edited May 18, 2017 by Jackviator

[low1991]

22 hours ago, Jackviator said:

......wat?

In what way can it be read like that? Because I'm not seeing it.

All I want is for the weapon to be a reasonably usable hammer with scaling functionality (be it crit or status) at Sortie levels. I'm not asking for it to be as OP as those combos you mentioned used to be, I just want it to not be a bad weapon scaling-wise, because frankly that's just where it is at the moment; it needs a buff.

Different point of view. Mine differ from yours. What i read may or maynot be differ from yours.

22 hours ago, Jackviator said:

.Why not? Seriously, why? Other than things like the Mk-1 weapons, (which are obviously meant for newer players to get rid of asap), why shouldn't any weapon in this game be Sortie-viable if a player is willing to put the time, effort, and Forma into a weapon?

If all other weapon are sortie-variable (in terms of DPS)... what will be the different between sortie and normal mission? (other then lvl & map condition). MR locked weapon/ clan-locked/ etc, are irrelevant to how good a weapon should be. 

In fact, all weapon are viable as this varies to different ppl. ie, even my unmodded gun can down a lvl 50+ gunner provided i get time & ammo.

[Fallen_Echo]

Okay hear me out on this one.

We keep all stats as currently they are on this but we change the bonus it provides to this:

The weapon gains simalurcum charges similarly as how syndicate secondaries and primaries gain charge. When its full, the next slam attack summons a regular (not event or boss) allied unit from your simalurcum archive (settable in the arsenal). It level is determined by the last unit you have killed with it. Each unit lasts till they die or you resummon them and as a bonus each summon has 5% chance to make the unit into an eximus one if possible.

Just imagine running around on the map with your very own bursa or corpus tech.

 

[(PSN)ExetSM]

On 5/18/2017 at 7:25 AM, low1991 said:

Or option 3:

• Each hit by Synoid Heliocor now scan the enemies at 25% chances. Finishing moves do a complete scan.
• Each scans now yield that [symicurm' standing] at cost of a scanner charges. Affected by scanner' upgrades.
• Holding/equiping Synoid Heliocor give player a AOE scan on scan-able plants.

I find this pretty cool! Heliocor has special features to it, so when you release a special version of that weapon, you enhance the uniqueness of it instead of just making it alter in stats

+1 (+2 if I could)

[Jackviator]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

I find this pretty cool! Heliocor has special features to it, so when you release a special version of that weapon, you enhance the uniqueness of it instead of just making it alter in stats

+1 (+2 if I could)

I mean I wouldn't mind having those features tacked on as an added bonus, but the entire point of this thread is that the weapon simply cannot compete with other melee weapons in combat, even its base version. So it still needs its base stats adjusted.

[(PSN)ExetSM]

25 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I mean I wouldn't mind having those features tacked on as an added bonus, but the entire point of this thread is that the weapon simply cannot compete with other melee weapons in combat, even its base version. So it still needs its base stats adjusted.

Yeah but then it's like low1991 said that if it's all about not being able to compete with other melees, a lot (almost all) of weapons would just be in the shadows of the already best weapons.
I thought the thread was about how to make the Synoid Heliocor a more attractive weapon, instead of just increasing the stats. In case I went off-topic of what you had in mind, I apologize = ) 

[Neuroszima]

On ‎16‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 9:15 PM, Jackviator said:

I think we can all agree, the Synoid Heliocor isn't exactly in the best of places right now. For all intents and purposes, it's a worse version of the base Heliocor; far less crit chance, lower base damage, and the only redeeming factor is a passable at best 20% base Status chance, a .3 increase to channeling damage, and a higher attack speed. Some might argue that the Status chance makes it an ok side-grade to the original, but frankly, hammers in general are just too slow for a Status build to be even remotely helpful on them, and even with the increased swing speed, it's still too slow.

So, I'd like to provide a couple potential solutions as to how the stats of the weapon could be fixed:

---

• Option 1: Increase the base attack speed even more (to, say, 1.18-1.25ish), change the base damage to be purely Electricity or Heat damage instead of IPS, and give it a higher (somewhere from 35-40%ish) base status chance.

This option would allow the Heliocor to actually perform as a pretty good status weapon. The pure Electricity/Heat damage would allow it to be modded for whatever purely elemental stats the wielder wants (and frankly would make more sense than having it be mainly Impact; it's an energy-hammer, after all), and the high attack speed would allow it to stack up a usable amount of procs per second.

---

• Option 2: Keep the attack speed and Status chance, but increase the base critical chance back up to the original's 25%.

The simpler of the two potential changes; simply make it into a decent Crit-focused melee weapon, as the original was, with the added option of potentially modding it for a hybrid of Crit and Status.

---

Either of these two changes would allow the weapon to be much more viable at Sortie-levels, and make it actually worthy of the 125k standing it costs to aquire. Because right now, it just isn't, and I'd like that to change.

The only reason I see why DE decided to make Synoid Heliocor worse than it's normal counterpart is it's passive. You can turn enemies into your allies for ~30 seconds (don't remeber exact value right now, have to check it) provided that you kill them in channeling mode. Though you cannot make your personal army ( activate ability multiple times to show Nekros you are better "corpse manager" than he is ), the ability becomes locked for a duration of this ~30 seconds once you used it and you cannot turn a new enemy into an ally, while you already have one. (lets say, newly spawned Heavy Gunner, and you already have a, lets say, Scorch as an ally).

Nice QoL improvement would be, apart from damage/crit/status balance you proposed, to actually have it last longer (like double or even triple the time really...) and make an ability to "deactivate" passive remotely (something like Nyx while she deactivates her Mind Control). This way you could make a space to turn stronger enemies into servants without irritating feeling that you have a Lancer as an ally, while there are multiple Heavy Gunners just saying "HEY, TAKE ME!!!". Oh well...

Anyways, i feel your pain bro. Even taking this passive into account it just doesn't seem right, it should be a direct upgrade from standard version, just like every other syndicate weapon is (forgive me if i'm wrong, i don't have a full arsenal).

[HyokaChan]

On 2017-5-21 at 10:55 PM, Neuroszima said:

The only reason I see why DE decided to make Synoid Heliocor worse than it's normal counterpart is it's passive. You can turn enemies into your allies for ~30 seconds (don't remeber exact value right now, have to check it) provided that you kill them in channeling mode. Though you cannot make your personal army ( activate ability multiple times to show Nekros you are better "corpse manager" than he is ), the ability becomes locked for a duration of this ~30 seconds once you used it and you cannot turn a new enemy into an ally, while you already have one. (lets say, newly spawned Heavy Gunner, and you already have a, lets say, Scorch as an ally).

The problem with this passive is that it's completely underwhelming due to how the AI works. It's often not aggressive enough and does ___ all for 30 seconds. It won't matter if you made it stay around for 2 minutes. You may as well just use Nekros if you want enemies on your side.

 

The weapon itself needs a direct upgrade... Then again, if it's not nerfed, it's not Synoid.

[Neuroszima]

3 hours ago, HyokaChan said:

The problem with this passive is that it's completely underwhelming due to how the AI works. It's often not aggressive enough and does ___ all for 30 seconds. It won't matter if you made it stay around for 2 minutes. You may as well just use Nekros if you want enemies on your side.

 

The weapon itself needs a direct upgrade... Then again, if it's not nerfed, it's not Synoid.

Well, as i said before your post, I agree with you at the point this should be an upgrade, so that the weapon really feels better than original version. I only denoted that that passive is just what makes me think DE decided the synoid weapon to be weaker, because they thought of it giving already buff to weapon.

You mentioned AI. Well AI is the thing that doesn't work in this game not only here but in other aspects of the game (*cough* kubrows *cough* *cough*). So i am not really expecting much in this matter, unless they fix it.

Edit: but those could be personal experiences ofc.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Neuroszima

[Tesseract7777]

If it did pure magnetic damage it would be unique among hammers, fit more with the Suda theme of weapons, work way better for status and be much more useful in general. As it stands it is a very, very disappointing weapon. It looks like an energy hammer anyways, why can't it just be magnetic? I would take electricity too. Just, pure elemental, that's what it needs. And the ability to spawn eximi with the specter ability. If Nekros and Inaros can the Synoid Heliocor should also be able to.