Scattered Justice

[(PSN)Romulus93]

Vaykor Hek is just plain worse than Hek if it can't also use Scattered Justice.

Aside from that, I'm disappointed with the direction that certain variants are instead upgrades to the originals rather than having a different set of stats that make it a unique alternative. The prime warframes specifically outclass and make obsolete the original frames, relegating them to nothing more than mastery fodder.

What do you think? My opinion is that I'd prefer a proper balance pass of the myriad number of weapons in the game so that they're more viable.

Riven mods don't help. They're a band-aid solution to the problem as I see it.

Edited May 18, 2017 by (PS4)Romulus93

[Tesseract7777]

Well, that ship has sailed on the Vaykor versus regular Hek debate, and the consensus is that you are wrong. The Vaykor Hek is not "just plain worse", because it cannot use Shattering Justice. 

Also, it seems you cannot make up your mind. You bemoan the fact that the Vaykor Hek is closer to a sidegrade to the regular Hek, while suggesting that weapons need to not be straight upgrades, but be unique sidegrades instead. 

Do you know what you want? 

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Vaykor Hek is actually an upgrade because of higher sustained dps thanks to a double sized mag and much higher crit chance.

Edited May 18, 2017 by xXx_mtv_xXx

[Doomsknightmare]

The Shattering Justice mod is a Weapon Augment Mod that adds status chance and Justice specifically for the Sobek.

Im 100% sure u mean Scattered Justice.

[Miser_able]

You literally contradicted yourself in less then 3 sentences. Gratz 

[Suncake]

I really prefer Vaykor Hek because it has bigger magazine, higher fire rate and its damage is really good if you have those primed mods maxed.

Prime frames aren't much better than the regular ones. They just have one or two additional polarities.

[Kusungphak]

If you had picked Synoid Heliocor vs Heliocor I would have agreed, but for me the Vaykor Hek is clearly the better weapon no point keeping normal Hek after getting the Vaykor and was deleted from inventory. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Kusungphak

[RobWasHere]

I remember the debate when VHek came out... Scattered Justice Hek is better only if you don't have Primed Ravage. With it, V Hek does better damage and overall better dps because of bigger magazine.

[taiiat]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

Vaykor Hek is just plain worse than Hek if it can't also use Shattering Justice.

i'm sorry but that is objectively false and always has been. even without Primed Ravage, average Damage per Shot is higher.

the only thing Hek has over Vaykor Hek is Status, but neither of them are good at Status so it's a moot point.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Vaykor Hek is better,  as long as you mod it for crits, though that requires Primed Ravage for you to get the most out of it., and it's basically the only Crit shotgun in the game (unless that Tenno Pump-action can become one, fingers crossed). besides, Vaykor has more utility that helps:

- double magazine, so 4 more chances to kill something before reloading.

- Justice Proc deals blast damage to nearby enemies and restores health.

overall, Vaykor has better DPS because of Crits and more shots between reloads, thus making it an upgrade.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

I'm disappointed with the direction that certain variants are instead upgrades to the originals rather than having a different set of stats that make it a unique alternative. The prime warframes specifically outclass and make obsolete the original frames, relegating them to nothing more than mastery fodder.

this is called progression: more powerful gear gives people an incentive to play. if it weren't for the climb to the top of the "my gun is best" pile, hardly anyone would bother playing the game. sidegrades appear here and there, but they're generally less favoured than straight up better versions of the same weapon. say what you will about power creep, but if it keeps the money rolling in (and it does), then it's here to stay. personally I hope the next Prime weapons are WAY more powerful than their current versions (and yes, I know what the next Prime weapons are supposed to be).

also, Primed Warframes have a marginally higher base stat (an extra 25 health/shields really doesn't make that much of a difference, it's only armour that does), the death orb passive (which only applies to the Void, which hardly anyone goes to these days apparently) and a few extra polarities (which just saves Forma). vanilla frames are still perfectly viable as long as you mod them right.

 

[(PSN)Romulus93]

I don't think it's unreasonable to want every weapon to be viable in it's own way. Quality over quantity should be the never changing mantra.

[Kusungphak]

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to want every weapon to be viable in it's own way. Quality over quantity should be the never changing mantra.

Each weapon is viable but it depends on the level of the missions and the level of the player. mk1-Braton is a great starter weapon. Then you can level up to a Braton and finally onto a Braton Prime. Now you do not want each of them to be equally good. Lot of weapon will fall off in higher levels but will serve a newbie well. 

Your example here is not a good one as the Hek is viable even at very high levels although its a MR4 weapon. I can take both Hek and the V Hek to any level and still be effective. 

Now in case you haven't noticed one of the things in Warframe is Mastery. Some players are not so keen on it while some are obsessed about it. I fall into the latter category. With every single weapon, frame, sentinel etc i can only reach MR23. This is with around 293 weapons in the game now.

To get from MR23 to 30 would need around 1 million mastery points more (estimated). The 293 weapons give only 879000 mastery points so I expect around 200-300 more weapons more to come into the game. Most of them would be mastery fooder for me.

[(PSN)Romulus93]

38 minutes ago, Kusungphak said:

 

Each weapon is viable but it depends on the level of the missions and the level of the player. mk1-Braton is a great starter weapon. Then you can level up to a Braton and finally onto a Braton Prime. Now you do not want each of them to be equally good. Lot of weapon will fall off in higher levels but will serve a newbie well. 

Your example here is not a good one as the Hek is viable even at very high levels although its a MR4 weapon. I can take both Hek and the V Hek to any level and still be effective. 

Now in case you haven't noticed one of the things in Warframe is Mastery. Some players are not so keen on it while some are obsessed about it. I fall into the latter category. With every single weapon, frame, sentinel etc i can only reach MR23. This is with around 293 weapons in the game now.

To get from MR23 to 30 would need around 1 million mastery points more (estimated). The 293 weapons give only 879000 mastery points so I expect around 200-300 more weapons more to come into the game. Most of them would be mastery fooder for me.

I suppose it's okay if only a select few are viable at the end game. Most of the star chart can be done with generally bad weapons. Still, progression doesn't have to equate to power creep. I think that's lazy and unintuitive.

[NPC]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm sorry but that is objectively false and always has been. even without Primed Ravage, average Damage per Shot is higher.

the only thing Hek has over Vaykor Hek is Status, but neither of them are good at Status so it's a moot point.

False, just slap a >60% status chance Riven and all 4 dual stat elementals and u  have a 100% status Hek. 

I personally prefer having my VHek as a Crit shotty and ScatHek as Status shotty, both have their own Rivens. 

[Kusungphak]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

I suppose it's okay if only a select few are viable at the end game. Most of the star chart can be done with generally bad weapons. Still, progression doesn't have to equate to power creep. I think that's lazy and unintuitive.

A Prime, Wraith, Prisma, Syndicate version is supposed to be a better version of the weapon and this should not be considered power creep. With the amount of nerf and balance changes warframe is always changing and there will always be the current meta. Every weapon cannot be on the viable for everything.

Anyway this is the bottom line here for me. This thread by you is asking for something which is vague to say the least. You want a balance pass for current weapons to make them viable but what exactly do you want ?

What weapons out are 293 weapons ?

What stats do you want to change ?

Do you want game mechanics to change ?

A game is constantly changing and hotfixes, nerfs, balance passes... Most of weapon balance passes are always controversial so as a community I am pretty sure your request (not sure what it is) would never be considered..

 

Anyway I am out this is going no where and completely pointless. 

[Golmihr]

This video shows the difference pretty well:

 

 

Overall V hek is a straight up upgrade to the Hek even if the Hek use the syndicate mod but it will need some forma before it gets good. Even if you don't go for head shots the V Hek still have the same burst damage while having a faster fire rate and requiring a lot less reloading.

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, NPC said:

False, just slap a >60% status chance Riven and all 4 dual stat elementals and u  have a 100% status Hek. 

I personally prefer having my VHek as a Crit shotty and ScatHek as Status shotty, both have their own Rivens. 

that doesn't make either of them GOOD Status Shotguns. they aren't. using 5 Mod Slots for a passable result isn't a good use.

being able to make a poorly performing, discount version of something else doesn't mean it's good at that.

Edited May 18, 2017 by taiiat

[kaliazane]

Outside of the obvious V Hek > Hek, which was proven ages ago....currently they are both average at best. Even Strun Wraith with crit riven is better crit shotgun than V Hek.

Hek rivens should not be this weak, especially considering that it's not all that popular anymore.

8 hours ago, NPC said:

False, just slap a >60% status chance Riven and all 4 dual stat elementals and u  have a 100% status Hek. 

I personally prefer having my VHek as a Crit shotty and ScatHek as Status shotty, both have their own Rivens. 

You can do same thing on Euphona Prime, without Top of the line riven or any for that matter. It would be way better at that due to being mainly slash.

Edited May 18, 2017 by ViS4GE

[(PSN)joshw1400]

8 hours ago, NPC said:

False, just slap a >60% status chance Riven and all 4 dual stat elementals and u  have a 100% status Hek. 

I personally prefer having my VHek as a Crit shotty and ScatHek as Status shotty, both have their own Rivens. 

Doesn't even matter if you can get them to 100% status because if it isn't primarily slash it won't do much, other than proc the elements.

[Justice_Ember]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

The prime warframes specifically outclass and make obsolete the original frames, relegating them to nothing more than mastery fodder.

By having a little more of somehting an extra polarities? 

14 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

My opinion is that I'd prefer a proper balance pass of the myriad number of weapons in the game so that they're more viable.

Viable for what exactly?

14 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

Riven mods don't help. They're a band-aid solution to the problem as I see it.

Is this the new talking point for Rivens?

[Heckzu]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

Vaykor Hek is just plain worse than Hek if it can't also use Scattered Justice.

What are you smoking?

Spoiler

Virtually the same body shot damage per hit when maxed for [unconditional] damage, but Vaykor Hek has about 50% more sustained DPS, and Vaykor Hek far surpasses Hek in actual use thanks to crit headshots having a 4x multiplier whereas regular headshots only have a 2x multiplier.

[BimBeuron]

Wait, I thought Vaykor Hek came with scattered justice as a passive? Unless I'm reading the wiki wrong (probably the latter).

[Sloan441]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 0:52 AM, (PS4)Romulus93 said:

Vaykor Hek is just plain worse than Hek if it can't also use Scattered Justice.

Except that it isn't.

Granted, they aren't hugely different from each other, and the VHek is pretty much tied to a crit build (or why bother), but both guns are among the better shotguns in the game.

The VHek has to be employed in a particular manner to exceed the damage output of the Scattered Hek, but, again, this isn't something unknown with other weapons.

Not seeing a problem here.

[Ghogiel]

On 18/05/2017 at 9:52 AM, NPC said:

False, just slap a >60% status chance Riven and all 4 dual stat elementals and u  have a 100% status Hek. 

I personally prefer having my VHek as a Crit shotty and ScatHek as Status shotty, both have their own Rivens. 

While I don't know for sure what edges what out in the end cos I dont have the riven, but what I do know is all of the comparisons of hek vs vaykor are bad because they aren't using the 60% status riven on a hek.

Granted it's not all slash, but hek has a pretty high pellet count, base dmg, and will still proc slashes. I susupect a status hek might beat a pure dmg hek on ttk on lvl 140s in simulacrum.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Ghogiel

[kaliazane]

10 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

While I don't know for sure what edges what out in the end cos I dont have the riven, but what I do know is all of the comparisons of hek vs vaykor are bad because they aren't using the 60% status riven on a hek.

Granted it's not all slash, but hek has a pretty high pellet count, base dmg, and will still proc slashes. I susupect a status hek might beat a pure dmg hek on ttk on lvl 140s in simulacrum.

They aren't bad, instead they are just old pre riven way of playing. Dual crit + neg hek riven only gives about 60%~ cc and cd so it's just a bit more dmg. While I don't have status riven for Hek to do 100% status build it would surely be better than crit one, purely because crit Hek is just average currently (without 4 cp at least) compared to other shotguns. Maybe even below average and status build would strip armor which is main issue. That being said idk why bother, you can do same thing on Strun with way less effort.