Remove Tonkor Entirely (Or bring back the old one)

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)HSomDevil said:

LMAO. *Approaching orbit now*

 

Seriously though, DE's been hammering down weapons with unique mechanics all spring.

It seems they would really like some variation to the weapon roster but just can't get the balance right. (Tonkor, Simulor, T. Boltace)

 

For the tonkor just adding self damage would been enough.

The simulor is now a mirage only weapon.

The telos boltace, well they might as well remove spec effects on it and give it a simple syndicate proc.

[Armadaius]

Actually I think the proper title is Remove Tonkor Entirely (Or bring back the old mechanic), to which I would agree.

The rocket-jump was actually the selling point of the weapon as it was shown in Reinforcement video as part of the weapon's mechanics at 0:24 in video.

Everyone has manic fun in game some melee freaks, some pyromaniacs (Who doesn't like to watch the world burn sometimes?), and explosive psychos (I have too much destructive pleasures I know).  Point is we all have fun in someway mine was blowing things up till they get too high in level (110+) then live in the pain (oh the pain) while taking to air from my previous carnage and cause more carnage mwaha-ehem- yeah.

The was .. bit much tbh nerf stats that I had no prob with but nerfing the mechanics of it the rocket jump that was a kick to the nuts right there. They say its "obsolete" thanks bullet jump yet those actually used for the fun factor can tell you the Rocket jump > Bullet jump as Rocket Jump cover more distance and can be used with bullet jump to provide even mobility and carnage (yes the carnage factor that must be added).

As for launchers in general they need and overall buff truth be they should the highest damage weapons in game rule nature, with Ogris being the real bfg, carrying the downside of well boomstatic experience favoring only the craziest. I say make launchers deal splash damage if we keep it "real" ie anyone in radius feels it, including objectives would make sense as to be be careful with it (This is the real self damage that explosives had in most games all the way back the 1990s). I propose 75-80% selfie rather than an insta-death though tbh self damage seems pointless in a PVE focused game ijs.

Meh just buff launchers in general to op range with splash damage and return tonkor rocket jump or just return rocket jump but keep nerf to stats and that'll be me for now

PS. Rather than nerf why not just buff others so insanity have more avenues to go.

[PrVonTuckIII]

4 hours ago, Armadaius said:

The rocket-jump was actually the selling point of the weapon as it was shown in Reinforcement video as part of the weapon's mechanics at 0:24 in video.

No, it wasn't. It was a gimmick that was secondary to the fact that the weapon was a piece of overpowered garbage. With the advent of Parkour 2.0, there was no need for it, and the lack of self-damage, so it was removed.

[BUAHAHAHAHA]

21 hours ago, Rage_Inducer said:

I use a Blood Rush Maiming Strike Atterax, I know very well just how messed up melee damage is but I also know that the vast majority of players don't have Maiming Strike.

My argument still stands, not everyone can reliably do insane damage with melee unless they build up combo. If you want on command immediate AoE, that's where the Tonkor has you covered.

And it's also worth noting just how little the Tonkor costs compared to all the other launchers as well as the MR requirement.

 

The point I'm trying to get across here is that the Tonkor is dirt cheap both in materials and mods and can carry you through the whole starchart on the most basic builds. It's a pretty strong thing to have as early as MR 5 and balancing that out with the risk of killing yourself seems fair to me.

I have to ask though. How does adding a new weapon remove alrernatives? Zarr explodes on impact and it's fair to have the self damage from cluster bombs removed because you can't predict those. As for the Tonkor, I can see people struggling with the grenades but you can either use Adhesive Blast or get sufficiently used to the thing as to always score a direct hit. You don't have any control over the Zarr's cluster bombs and on that note, the Kulstar needs a similar treatment.

On another note, lay off the trash talk, it becomes increasingly more difficult to take any argument seriously when it's behind that sort of thing.

 

What trash talk?

Zarr cluster bombs are more predictable than tonkor, much more - the only option for tonkor is to stand more than 15-20m away from target (unless it bounces back) and the same would apply to zarr with cluster bombs self-dmg.

De removed alternatives themselfs, not zarr.

As to your 1st point, can you think of possible fix to this? Because i can.

[Armadaius]

On 5/24/2017 at 7:28 AM, PrVonTuckIII said:

No, it wasn't. It was a gimmick that was secondary to the fact that the weapon was a piece of overpowered garbage. With the advent of Parkour 2.0, there was no need for it, and the lack of self-damage, so it was removed.

That hate boner would make even the Emperor proud

Anyway

- https://youtu.be/lbGD5cxxZY4 at 0:24 rocket jump. Basically I'm being sold a new car with a cool ac feature being one of the highlights of the car, months (years really) later they come and remove the ac from the car since we can drive a little faster on the highway.

- secondly I said keep nerf stats however return my ac aka rocket jump since that was part of the fun factor for some of us.

- I also said make launchers do splash damage rather than just self since we wanna keep it real or/and have 70% damage return if you get hit by it

- Finally I said buff launchers in general since they suppose to be the bigguns and nerfs are pointless in pve focus game etc blah blah..

 

Tldr; Give back rocket jump as advertised and keep nerf, make boom kill everything in range including objective or dmg return 70%,  buff launchers and nerfs pointless in kill everything that aint a player game.

 

[PrVonTuckIII]

1 hour ago, Armadaius said:

- Finally I said buff launchers in general since they suppose to be the bigguns and nerfs are pointless in pve focus game etc blah blah..

And this is where you've lost any semblance of a point you once had. The whole 'it's a PvE Coop game, therefore balance is irrelevant' argument has already been rejected multiple times. 

1 hour ago, Armadaius said:

- https://youtu.be/lbGD5cxxZY4 at 0:24 rocket jump. Basically I'm being sold a new car with a cool ac feature being one of the highlights of the car, months (years really) later they come and remove the ac from the car since we can drive a little faster on the highway.

No, it's more like: I had this cool feature, and now I got a new feature that makes the old one obsolete, so instead of keeping the old one, which has no purpose anymore, I got rid of it.

[Armadaius]

1 hour ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

And this is where you've lost any semblance of a point you once had. The whole 'it's a PvE Coop game, therefore balance is irrelevant' argument has already been rejected multiple times. 

No, it's more like: I had this cool feature, and now I got a new feature that makes the old one obsolete, so instead of keeping the old one, which has no purpose anymore, I got rid of it.

No point is valid rejecting doesn't invalidate it, PVE Coop game doesnt change the fact the so call "balancing" done hasn't truly balance things rather its keeping people in selective choice of weapons out vast library of weapons. 60-70% of weapons are consider just mastery fodder to most players with others being okay then 5-10%(being generous its lower). I'm saying rather than just nerfing for 'balance' buff all and make each have a chance to shine to each individuals. Plus if it were really balance why are weapons like Tigris series get straight up raw damage upgrade with each new one while spira, ignis and supra series among others getting sidegrades or slight shift in other stats that make slightly better some cases but not a huge jump in comparison Tiggy boys.

Also obsolete is just and excuse to just to justify removal with the least resistance, I already stated that rocket jump was superior to bullet jump and provided more mobility since you can still use bullet jump after it adding to the distance. Coptering is obsolete but you'll fine people still using even a means of movement, hell some will still leave you in dust with it.

As I stated if they wanna nerf hey that's their thing, just leave the mechanic/feature hell if they could make that damage can't even kill lvl 40 and above enemies I dont care just give me my method of fun back.

 

[TheBrsrkr]

4 minutes ago, Armadaius said:

. Plus if it were really balance why are weapons like Tigris series get straight up raw damage upgrade with each new one while spira, ignis and supra series among others getting sidegrades or slight shift in other stats that make slightly better some cases but not a huge jump in comparison Tiggy boys.

Because more damage on the Tigris is essentially meaningless. Any of the Tigris variants will kill whatever you're shooting at anyway in one or two shots. That's what the Tigris does. It isn't balanced by the damage it does, it's balanced by the damage decrease over range, dependence on punch through, 2 shot clip, 2 second reload, wide spread and the way status is calculated on shotguns (except for on the S. Tigris). The Supra didn't need more damage, it has enough damage already, held back by its accuracy and clip size. Which the Vandal had buffed. Simple as that

[PrVonTuckIII]

26 minutes ago, Armadaius said:

No point is valid rejecting doesn't invalidate it, PVE Coop game doesnt change the fact the so call "balancing" done hasn't truly balance things rather its keeping people in selective choice of weapons out vast library of weapons. 60-70% of weapons are consider just mastery fodder to most players with others being okay then 5-10%(being generous its lower). I'm saying rather than just nerfing for 'balance' buff all and make each have a chance to shine to each individuals. Plus if it were really balance why are weapons like Tigris series get straight up raw damage upgrade with each new one while spira, ignis and supra series among others getting sidegrades or slight shift in other stats that make slightly better some cases but not a huge jump in comparison Tiggy boys.

Exactly why nerfing exists. When you have approximately 300 weapons to choose from, it's not good for the game for players to only have the motivation to play a select handful, because then they overuse said weapons, get bored, and leave.

And buffing everything doesn't work (There was a post on this somewhere; I can't find it right now). Then everything is too strong, and you're back to square one. So instead, you balance the entire game around a certain level, rather than arbitrarily buffing as you see fit.

As for your last question, that's because both weapons are equally viable, just at different things. The Tigris series are meant to be heavy-killers - they deal a massive amount of damage in a small area. Not only that, but they have a very limited magazine, and require accuracy due to their tight cone. To balance those difficulties out, most things don't survive getting with them.

On the other hand, weapons like the Ignis, Tonkor, and whatnot, have less overall damage, but can deal it over a greater area, and do it more easily. Thus, the two weapons are [hypothetically] equal.

TL;DR - Nerfs are not bad. Stop whining that they are, because they are not.

[Armadaius]

35 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Exactly why nerfing exists. When you have approximately 300 weapons to choose from, it's not good for the game for players to only have the motivation to play a select handful, because then they overuse said weapons, get bored, and leave.

And buffing everything doesn't work (There was a post on this somewhere; I can't find it right now). Then everything is too strong, and you're back to square one. So instead, you balance the entire game around a certain level, rather than arbitrarily buffing as you see fit.

As for your last question, that's because both weapons are equally viable, just at different things. The Tigris series are meant to be heavy-killers - they deal a massive amount of damage in a small area. Not only that, but they have a very limited magazine, and require accuracy due to their tight cone. To balance those difficulties out, most things don't survive getting with them.

On the other hand, weapons like the Ignis, Tonkor, and whatnot, have less overall damage, but can deal it over a greater area, and do it more easily. Thus, the two weapons are [hypothetically] equal.

TL;DR - Nerfs are not bad. Stop whining that they are, because they are not.

1. That's kinda the point I was trying to make though I might not have made it clearly but as it stands less then 30 of the 300 are really being selected as go to weapon. Riven was suppose help fix that but well kinda work kinda didn't.

2. Surprisingly I agree with you here. This is kinda main issue that needs to be resolved though its on their to do list its seems like it not  a focus as it should be.

3. Funny thing is I dont feel the down side to many weapon, more so Tigris as I have use it sniping and hall clearing with spread similar to Opticor aoe range. I probably didnt notice tight cone due vicious spread being on most my pump action. I see your point though I may not necessarily agree. 

 

I'm not saying nerfs are bad or whining, I'm just saying as stated just want actual balancing than nerfing as feels like its adding to a power creep in a certain direction.

Kohm is nice example as it was a beast (still is) though it went through many changes it was balanced out pretty much same month it came out and also didn't change the mechanics of the weapon at least not enough to fully deviate from how it originally came out.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 5/23/2017 at 5:00 PM, Rage_Inducer said:

I have to ask though. How does adding a new weapon remove alrernatives? Zarr explodes on impact and it's fair to have the self damage from cluster bombs removed because you can't predict those.

Zarr is an explosive shotgun. Tonkor used to be something of an explosive shotgun as it's the only way the gun was functional outside of defense missions.

So self damage is fair when you can predict where or when an explosive will explode.
Unfortunately, with the tonkor you can neither predict where or when, since it can rather easily bounce crazy, go between enemies legs and it only detonates on hit with an enemy. I can't predict if the tonkor will or will not hit anything cause it's such a slow projectile that goes in an arc and bounces like crazy.

Your logic is a little backwards

If the Zarr cluster bomb's don't do self damage, why does the Tonkor do self damage? 
Where's all the people yelling at me about how an inaccurate bouncy grenade launcher having self damage is fair... and cluster bombs don't do self damage

De you are all over the place with weapons. 
 

 

On 5/23/2017 at 2:25 PM, kleerr2 said:

And interestingly enough:

Tonkon needs to be aimed, if you can fire a tonkor nade in the ''general direction'' of an enemy and kill said enemy, then that is most likely because it is a mob of enemies, and while another weapon won't kill said enemy... there is a good change that it will kill some enemy, that happens to be in the ''general direction'' in the same conditions.

Actually you don't need to be punished for doing lots of damage... There are lots of weapons and abilities currently in the game, that are proof of that... And it is very interesting, as you said 'Nobody complained about zar cluster bombs doing no damage', because it is true, they would welcome(probalby... hopefully!) the removal of something that is very detrimental to their, well... lets say ''well being'' and i guarantee you, that the same people who write up things like ''Self-dmg is da best'', will perform harakiri/ seppuku, if say... the hit-scan class was detrimental in some major way(suicide maybe? oh wait...), or had some kind of self-damage mechanic, altho that wouldn't make much sense... The point is... You won't see those same people that glorify self-damage, proposing that very self-damage, to be implemented into another category... you just don't!

If aiming in the general direction of an enemy, when firing/using a weapon, or using an ability, to kill multiple enemies, regardless of the supposed main enemy you target, was unbalanced, or unfair... then we might aswell remove the shotgun and melee class as a whole as well as several abilities and punch trough mods to go along with it...

Slightly confused why they removed the self damage from the zarr, when no other explosive weapon has any reduced damage anymore. I would like your thoughts, why we can't have nice things. 

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

the Zarr cluster bomb's don't do self damage, why does the Tonkor do self damage

Because when people all over the forums cried that the tonkor is op they spammed 2 things:

1. give it self damage so it wont be an expection

2. reduce its damage

And when the zarr got introduced people get up here and complained that the cluster bombs deal self damage.

DE listens to feedback if a big enough number of players come here and complain about insane bullS#&$ for example: "give self damage to quanta cubes", DE would listen to them and give it self damage.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[Chipputer]

12 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

the Zarr cluster bomb's don't do self damage, why does the Tonkor do self damage? 

Quite simple. The fact that at the Zarr's release you could barely even see the cluster bombs and you would randomly die from shooting at a target 20m away that was slightly higher in elevation. Did you never try playing it?

Your tonkor grenade glows and you get an aim guide to tell you where you're aiming it. You aim it, it bounces, you stay away from it. It explodes about where you planned.
I aim my Zarr, it hits the enemy, the cluster bombs bounce back at me. I'm missing a chunk of my health because I shot an enemy that was 20m+ away.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Quite simple. The fact that at the Zarr's release you could barely even see the cluster bombs and you would randomly die from shooting at a target 20m away that was slightly higher in elevation. Did you never try playing it?

Your tonkor grenade glows and you get an aim guide to tell you where you're aiming it. You aim it, it bounces, you stay away from it. It explodes about where you planned.
I aim my Zarr, it hits the enemy, the cluster bombs bounce back at me. I'm missing a chunk of my health because I shot an enemy that was 20m+ away.

The Tonkor Aim doesn't tell you where the grenade will bounce or when it will detonate. Only works when you hold it down, when it should be all the time so you don't kill yourself. 

The Zarr explodes the moment it hits the ground, and has an alt fire so you can use it at close range. Like..... The Zarr has no excuse for killing yourself. It has A CLOSE RANGE ALT FIRE. The Tonkor has no such thing and will 100% kill you at close range, despite De making it so it wouldnt explode within 6 meters. 

Your missing a chunk of your health?... The Tonkor will straight up kill you as any frame if you use it within 20 meters. 

Your logic is bad, and you should feel bad

[TankHunter678]

I'd be all for capping the self damage and bringing back the rocket jump, that tenno reinforcements video for it makes it look pretty fun to play around with.

 

If it blowing away huge groups was a problem then nerf the splash radius rather then self nuking damage. That would of restricted it a lot better while retaining its fun factor.

[(PSN)DBR87]

All Tonkor needs now is being able to early detonate with Alt Fire. Thought it could already do that but haven't touched the thing in a long time so...

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

All Tonkor needs now is being able to early detonate with Alt Fire. Thought it could already do that but haven't touched the thing in a long time so...

Needs a few things actually. 

Any way to control it so it blows up where you want it to blow up would be great... But it was kinda designed to be different from the penta. 

 

[(XBOX)FallenEagle1238]

it was said to be broken so they nerfed it, there are other weapons you can use that won't kill you

god forbid an explosive weapon not kill you in one shot

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Its not the same as any launcher....without self damage....which is why it was better....because it outperformed other launchers....and did no self damage.....

Not hating on your argument, but just picking at the part where you made it soumd like the tonkor could be compared to other launchers pre nerf and not be considered to have an advantage.

Other launchers should do less self damage, if not completely remove it, ogris and penta main example, but DE and certain people dont like buffs, they like nerfs, so this happened.

[Vedlom]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE WEAPONS CAN DAMAGE YOU TOO, ARE YOU INSANE?!

[SenorClipClop]

On 5/18/2017 at 9:19 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Remember when the Tonkor was a fun weapon?

I really don't.

What happened to the Tonkor sucked for a lot of players, but it was a fair balancing for the one weapon in its class that didn't possess the group's endemic drawback: in exchange for being able to deal huge damage without really aiming, you have to watch your positioning. It was the same for every launcher except the Tonkor, and now it's fair for all launchers. I still see Tenno using the weapon daily in my missions without blowing themselves up. Time to adapt, Tenno.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 6/25/2017 at 11:51 PM, SenorClipClop said:

I really don't.

What happened to the Tonkor sucked for a lot of players, but it was a fair balancing for the one weapon in its class that didn't possess the group's endemic drawback: in exchange for being able to deal huge damage without really aiming, you have to watch your positioning. It was the same for every launcher except the Tonkor, and now it's fair for all launchers. I still see Tenno using the weapon daily in my missions without blowing themselves up. Time to adapt, Tenno.

Except that every launcher in the game let you use it to fire safely. Simulor says hi, Penta's grenades, and every other weapon that detonates where you want says hi. The Ogris that fires straight and explodes on impact says hi. The tonkor is the only grenade that neither explodes on impact, or allows you to detonate. 

Tonkor is all risk. In a horde shooter, a gun that can unpredictably kill you is worthless. It's just a worse version of the simulor at this point. 
It was one of the first grenade launchers that was useable outside of defense missions. 

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that every launcher in the game let you use it to fire safely. Simulor says hi, Penta's grenades, and every other weapon that detonates where you want says hi. The Ogris that fires straight and explodes on impact says hi. The tonkor is the only grenade that neither explodes on impact, or allows you to detonate. 

I don't mean that it shares a self-damage penchant with other launchers, I mean that you have to watch positioning with launchers (where the payloads fall with the Penta, where you're standing with the Tonkor).

[(XBOX)Volker9549]

What wrong with having an explosive shotgun in the game? its not like it was OP or anything really. I had one and i just didn't really like it so i used other weapons which had there own benefits. I guess people were tired of losing all the kills to the thing, but Nova and Ember two extremely common frames do the same thing anyways. If you want more kills play harder missions or play alone. i don't see why DE got rid of this weapons unique ability rather than just nerf the damage if people really hated it. Getting rid of it's sole purpose as a weapon was a horrible way to nerf it which completely ensured that every other weapon in the class wouldl be better. 

[Nezha_Rose]

On 5/19/2017 at 2:56 PM, Endorphinz said:

It's ludicrous how toxic this community is. Right off the bat, the first response to feedback is just a stupid picture mocking OP.

Whether or not you agree with them, they do have a voice. I know most people in here are childish players that like to mock the current meta while patting themselves on the back for having their own game-breaking superior (in their own eyes) way of playing.

Maybe if Op would had worded his opinion better people would take him more seriously. 

Note actually it was almost well structured until here:

"Then everyone who didn't have one complained about how toxic a 6 forma tonkor was just cause their one forma boltor couldn't keep up"

side note2: ts sad, I was gonna take him seriously since I have a 6 forma tonkor and Ive barely used it (you can check its stats on my profile) Ive tried using it recently to give a break of Zarring, I dont mind the self damage (I can aim and play safe), but the gun needs a bit of acuracy buff in my opinion.

I wanted the nerf so I wouldnt be criticised for using it. And now I can use tonkor and not be criticised for lack of skill.  But the zarr somehow feels more acurate.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Nezha_Rose