Self Damage

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Ok, just a quick note. I played warframe for over 1500hours now. Not tops veteran but i spend some time with you guys and probably know what I'm talking about. Well, the thing is, in 1500 hours of me playing warframe I NEVER had fun with self-damaging weapons.They just too dangerous and I don't want people to res me every time an immune bombard spawns on top of me and I kill myself accidently.  So I never used self-damaging weapons except during maxing a few. Cause they're no fun to me.

The problem of self-damaging weapons is not only the suicide damage but lack of actual point in using them. Weapons like kulstar or penta, or even Zarr - damage falls off pretty quickly and in any decent mission you end up with a weapon that oneshots yourself but deals nigh no damage to the swarm of enemies that surround you. That's basically the scope of the problem.

I don't know how to solve the lack of damage issue, but the overly high self-damage could be solved, I believe, by limiting max self-damage per hit by % of overall effective health. So, basically my proposition is, for example if you are hit by multiple penta grenades per single detonations you can only be damaged for 30% of your overall effective health. It's a similar system to nullifiers' bubble.

You could play with this simple idea - self-damaging weapons could take off all shileds and a bit of health. Or just the shields (shields would be useful for smth) and only damage health if you have no shields on etc.

Honestly, DE, I wanted to play with Zarr but I could never trust it. Same with Penta and Kulstar. Those weapons are dangerous and the damage they deliver is just not good enough for such a drawback. And the one-shot self-damage is just a bad idea overall in my humble opinion (I could elaborate on other similar bad ideas in warframe, but I'll leave it at that for now).

I hope this thread doesn't dissapear under hundreds of similar ones (about vacuum, about lack of endgame and variety etc).

P.S.
Guys, DE, please play your game with accounts higher than rank 10. Pls. You miss on a huge portion of the game's problems that are unattended.
Cheers. 

Update: Almost forgot. If self-damaging weapons could never deal the finishing blow - would be even better. Let them leave you with 2hp or smth, maybe stagger you (like quick thinking does). In the game there are all sorts of accidents. Always one-shot death is just too punishing and no fun at all. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

Learn to aim? Fixed.

I mean if you aim at your feet, ofc it's gonna kill you.
This is like CoD player complaining shooting yourself with a bazooka kills you.

Zarr is fine as is, it's a derpy mastery fodder weapon anyway that's fun as multishot.
It's not about trusting it, it's trusting the fact that it will kill you if you misuse it.

Not that your post doesn't have valid content and concerns, but targeting explosive weapons for being self damaging is kinda odd. Then every explosive weapon would be Simulor and kinda lifeless.

[--DSP--]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Zarr is fine as is, it's a derpy mastery fodder weapon anyway

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

Just now, --DSP-- said:

 

Three forma's later, it's still mastery fodder compared to Tigris of any variety past level 30 enemies.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

 

Learn to aim? Fixed.

 

Get gud doesn't work when enemies spawn on top of your head right in front of you. Get gud doesn't work in confined spaces. Get gud doesn't work with hoards of enemies charging straight at you even when you're invisible. The only warframe that can safely use self-damaging weapons is Wukong and that's saying smth. You just can't relax with these weapons. And they don't do that much damage to be this dangerous to yourself. If they oneshot lvl 200 enemies I'd say it's a fair trade. But they hardly scratch lvl 100s most of the time. Yet always oneshot yourself. How is it fair or fun? 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Three forma's later, it's still mastery fodder compared to Tigris of any variety past level 30 enemies.

Most of the weapons in the game require 5-6 forma to max properly.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[--DSP--]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Three forma's later, it's still mastery fodder compared to Tigris of any variety past level 30 enemies.

Past 30? How long have you been playing the game? Did you even crit build the thing? I forma'd it 6 times.

Edited March 13, 2017 by --DSP--

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

How is it fair or fun? 

I laugh when I use Javlok, Zarr and their ilk.
That's all I expect of them.

Git gud always works. If you know it's going to happen but still bring a Zarr and expect something else.. Well.

[--DSP--]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Git gud always works.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

 If you know it's going to happen but still bring a Zarr and expect something else.. Well.

"Still bring a Zarr" - That's why people don't use self-damaging weapons. Exactly my point. But Zarr is a fun weapon with interesting mechanics that a lot of people like. I would like to use it, but I can't trust it. I'm quite sure there's a lot of people who think similarly.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Git gud always works

No. Not really. 

[BoomyGordo]

23 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

-snip-

Ive never had an enemy spawn on top of me.. infact that is pretty much impossible to have happen unless you are playing in 500+ ping lobbies. the last time i had issues with self damage weapons was the old penta bug where it killed you no matter where the grenades were.

 

you do honestly need a heavy dose of git gud since i regularly use the zarr, ogris, penta, and even sometimes the angstrum in level 120+ sorties and never really had issues with self damage and suicide or even not doing enough damage. try a little strategy? dont shoot the guy right next to you shoot the ground past him to hit him with the splash or even better: move away before fireing.

sources: 2100 hours of playing

 

obligatory penta bug vid:

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[chaotea]

I can understand the point of self damage generally, but in a game like warframe, it seems detrimental to the fun of the game. I'd like to see self damage as a concept removed from weapons.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

Ive never had an enemy spawn on top of me..

When was the last time you played fissures?

1 minute ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

level 120+ sorties

Sorties are 100+ (just saying)

3 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

git gud

To git gud you gotta use the weapon and be bad with it for some time. If the weapon doesn't deal enough damage and is oneshotting yourself - there's no incentive to git gud. And would you really argue that self-damage mechanic in the game is broken?

[-S-O-Vetula_Mortem]

15 minutes ago, --DSP-- said:

Lvl 145 Enemys Vs Zarr = Enemy Dead

Best Equation ever XD

[--DSP--]

Quote

git gud

Stop saying that word ;-; I beg u

 

[BoomyGordo]

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

When was the last time you played fissures?

ok fair point, but still is it that hard to be situationally aware and not just spam fire?

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Sorties are 100+ (just saying)

i know they are. in third teir missions, esspecially in def and survival and interception missions they can reach upwards of level 120 easily, still never had trouble dealing damage with self damaging weapons.

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

To git gud you gotta use the weapon and be bad with it for some time. If the weapon doesn't deal enough damage and is oneshotting yourself - there's no incentive to git gud. And would you really argue that self-damage mechanic in the game is broken?

and this is the breaking point for your entire argument. no you dont have to use the weapon for a time to git gud, you just have to step back and think: this can kill me, so maybe i should be a bit more careful on where i aim it and make sure its not going to kill me before i fire. take 1 more second to make a shot, never go down to your own shot, and still do great damage and get alot of kills. not a hard concept

 

INFACT the zarr has a shotgun mode specifically for when enemies are too close to you... use it!

Edited March 13, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, -S-O-Vetula_Mortem said:

Lvl 145 Enemys Vs Zarr = Enemy Dead

Best Equation ever XD

Well, everything dies eventually.

[-S-O-Vetula_Mortem]

Seems like words arent suited for such a topic --DSP-- i feel with you

[BoomyGordo]

2 minutes ago, --DSP-- said:

Stop saying that word ;-; I beg u

 

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

2 minutes ago, --DSP-- said:

Past 30? How long have you been playing the game? Did you even crit build the thing? I forma'd it 6 times.

Enough to know that crit building it requires a Argon Scope (Actually getting a headshot) or Primed S#&$ and missing the multishot fun part of using it.

None which are either available for rational effort and/or fun.

4 minutes ago, --DSP-- said:

Past 30? How long have you been playing the game? Did you even crit build the thing? I forma'd it 6 times.

Enough to know that there's no rational rewards past 60 level enemies unless you are REALLY into being a tryhard.
Enough to know that 6-forma Zarr isn't worth it.
You don't kill S#&$ in Trials, and forcing to run multiple rotations is silly when you can just restart for less effort and same rewards.

Sure you CAN go past that IF your ENTIRE group is geared in Void Rifts.
Rarely is in public lobbies.

Hell, maxing out weapons/frames happens in Gabii, Ceres with a 30min run that caps enemies at 40-something and gives more than enough credits and/or focus affinity for the trouble of doing that.

4 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

No. Not really. 

The entire reason you play games is to get good at them.
So, I can't follow your logic here.

Using a Zarr is not gud.
Otherwise the same logic has to be applied to EVERY weapon in the game, of which 90% are derp and unicorn vomit of "maybe with 6 forma and a godroll riven it will kill stuff".

1 minute ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

and this is the breaking point for your entire argument. no you dont have to use the weapon for a time to git gud, you just have to step back and think: this can kill me, so maybe i should be a bit more careful on where i aim it and make sure its not going to kill me before i fire. take 1 more second to make a shot, never go down to your own shot, and still do great damage and get alot of kills. not a hard concept

This.

Hard to sympathize if you are suicide bombing yourself and blaming the weapon for doing it after the third time.

[--DSP--]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Enough to know that crit building it requires a Argon Scope (Actually getting a headshot)

Crit building doesn't require argon scope, just sayin.

[-S-O-Vetula_Mortem]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

The entire reason you play games is to get good at them.

What the ? Nope thats not what games are for.

[-S-O-Vetula_Mortem]

Another solution for selfdamage on the Zarr is to play it on Shotgun mode XD

+ you can get headshots pretty easy on the spread so.... Argon scope viable!

Edited March 13, 2017 by -S-O-Vetula_Mortem
Forgot something

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

1 minute ago, --DSP-- said:

Crit building doesn't require argon scope, just sayin.

15% crit base.
What's feasible easily is Critical Delay and Point Strike.
+150%, +48%.
44.7% crit.
Will not redcrit without Argon Scope.
Redcrit is critbuild.

Ergo cogitus sum or something like that.