Self Damage

[Thundervision]

Is it just me or comparing abusive combo to balanced GLs isn't fair at all? I mean, how many people don't (macro-) spam Whip-slide, which looks as bad as zorencoptering, and actually use combos? I'm just saying!

 

As for self-damage, there's nothing to say but the fact it was made for balance purposes. Tell me how something like that wouldn't hurt the game and its somewhat balance further:

..oh, right. We already had Mirages with Tonkors.

[Lorch]

Clem Said "you need to be taught on how to use explosives"

 

[Shaady94]

43 minutes ago, Thundervision said:

Is it just me or comparing abusive combo to balanced GLs isn't fair at all? I mean, how many people don't (macro-) spam Whip-slide, which looks as bad as zorencoptering, and actually use combos? I'm just saying!

 

As for self-damage, there's nothing to say but the fact it was made for balance purposes. Tell me how something like that wouldn't hurt the game and its somewhat balance further:

..oh, right. We already had Mirages with Tonkors.

Well, I dunno what you want to achieve with this video, cause you can clearly see that Zero is using absorb shield, maybe even The Sham, which has high chance of absorbing dmg and converting it into ammo. Normally when you hit yourself with the launcher he/she was using you would die with one shot.

[Thundervision]

20 minutes ago, Shaady94 said:

Well, I dunno what you want to achieve with this video, cause you can clearly see that Zero is using absorb shield, maybe even The Sham, which has high chance of absorbing dmg and converting it into ammo. Normally when you hit yourself with the launcher he/she was using you would die with one shot.

I know and that's the thing. It shows what you can become with no self-damage while having a powerful AoE weapon.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, Thundervision said:

I know and that's the thing. It shows what you can become with no self-damage while having a powerful AoE weapon.

I need to ask but is that good or bad?

In warframe the only way i would accept self damage is if the weapons could deal that much damage to the targets as in the borderlands series.

[Pampkin_Christ]

I've seen a few threads discussing self damage on AOE weapons and how it shouldn't exist or how DE needs to revert the changes made to the Tonkor, and I think I have a relatively simple solution.

Add a mod that makes it so you take some percentage less self damage, yes you may have to give up a precious mod slot and probably forma again, but at least you won't kill yourself anymore. They could even add this to a lesser degree to Firestorm to make it more convenient.

 

Personal thoughts on mod specifics:

Rank 8 mod

-90% self damage

Cost- 18 points

Polarity- D (we need more uses for this damn thing)

 

Give opinions if you want.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Nipple_McLickington

[ScorpDK]

That would probably end up being called another "bandaid mod". Things you shouldn't need to have in order to make an item viable.

 

The elephant in the room is that accidentally hitting yourself as you're slightly too close to an explosion can instantly vaporize you, while it takes 2-6 shots to kill an enemy. An enemy that may continue to approach you. Thus increasing the likelihood of murdering yourself with your own weapon.

 

Personally, and this may be a bit nonviable, especially for consoles, the best solution would be to re-categorize and make all explosive weapons into a 3rd ranged weapon category, that can be carried along with a normal primary and secondary.
That way, you can have your rifle and sidearms modded for different single-target combat for long/medium distance, melee for when things get into close combat, but also an explosive solution for when there's lots and lots of baddies that require nuking. They can have low amounts of ammunition, because it doesn't matter- you're not sacrificing a loadout slot anymore.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by ScorpDK

[Thundervision]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I need to ask but is that good or bad?

In warframe the only way i would accept self damage is if the weapons could deal that much damage to the targets as in the borderlands series.

Like many things in this game, it's good because of its concept (self-damage for a high damage output) and yet it's bad because of its execution. Also, I should've mentioned it in my first post that by «balanced» I meant said concept, my bad.

The thing is, DE don't balance anything around endless missions unless something has infinite scaling or close to it (Nyx with her Chaos, Loki with his Disarm, Equinox or old Mag's Polarize with Trinity's WoL+EV combo). We got Star Chart and the best they will do is balancing stuff around the Sortie: as long as Damage 2.0 is a thing Endless mode will be about how much longer you can survive before getting exhausted by enemy forces or boredom of making it to higher level/cheesing (one of the reasons many folks say capping the enemies level in endless mode would help, so you'd just fight endless spawns of mobs).

Should GLs have higher damage? Yes, they should (I won't argue on this one).

But then again, if they get more (like MORE) damage within current SC levels, it will be another Mirage+Tonkor/Simulor/Teltace/Atterax problem (and even in BL having a powerful RPG, non legendary, doesn't mean you won't get issues with killing grunts). There's basically no way to balance GLs w/o self-damage (well, nothing comes to my mind):

Reducing ammo reserve? It won't help 'cause of ammo drops/restores/Carrier/Ammo Mutation.

Min. fire distance? This could work for enemies so it wouldn't look awkward when a Bombard tries to perform a rocket jump, but for players it would be annoying as hell.

Mobility penalty? This sends us back to Sniper Rifles' scopes having sway while frames like Nova or Mag can dance with Jet Kitty/Fragor. Same goes for aim sensitivity.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Thundervision
typos

[Pampkin_Christ]

11 minutes ago, ScorpDK said:

That would probably end up being called another "bandaid mod". Things you shouldn't need to have in order to make an item viable.

 

The elephant in the room is that accidentally hitting yourself as you're slightly to close to an explosion can instantly vaporize you, while it takes 2-6 shots to kill an enemy. An enemy that may continue to approach you. Thus increasing the likelyhood of murdering yourself with your own weapon.

 

Personally, and this may be a bit nonviable, especially for consoles, the best solution would be to re-categorize and make all explosive weapons into a 3rd ranged weapon category, that can be carried along with a normal primary and secondary.
That way, you can have your rifle and sidearms modded for different single-target combat, melee for when things get into close combat, but also an explosive solution for when there's lots and lots of baddies that require nuking. They can have low amounts of ammunition, because it doesn't matter- you're not sacrificing a loadout slot anymore.

 

What's wrong with a mod that makes up for something lack luster on a weapon? That's what every mod is for, so that argument makes no sense considering an AOE doing self damage is completely logical, and the mod would be for people who have the issue with killing themselves. As for making it so you can carry 3 ranged weapons is completely ridiculous considering the game is already pissing easy as it is, no need for more weapons at a time. The issue of self damage is people have a hard time not killing themselves, this is just a crutch for them.

[Pampkin_Christ]

Would love it if the moderators would at least tell me they're moving my thread into another one instead of just doing it and not saying a damn thing :^)

[ScorpDK]

2 minutes ago, Nipple_McLickington said:

What's wrong with a mod that makes up for something lack luster on a weapon? That's what every mod is for, so that argument makes no sense considering an AOE doing self damage is completely logical, and the mod would be for people who have the issue with killing themselves. As for making it so you can carry 3 ranged weapons is completely ridiculous considering the game is already pissing easy as it is, no need for more weapons at a time. The issue of self damage is people have a hard time not killing themselves, this is just a crutch for them.

Well, that's the thing. Self-Damage should, by default, be only a fraction of its full damage potential. Which it isn't. If you hit something at point blank, chances are even your toughest, highest eHP frame will instantly turn into space dust from the blast. The enemy you aimed at, however, may still run around with only a percentage missing from its health pool. And that's why I think such a mod is a bandaid, since it's introducing a feature that should be there. If launchers did reduced damage to start, and you had a mod to further reduce the damage, I would be absolutely fine with its existence. It would be a buff, not a mandatory feature. I'm not good with words, but I hope you get what I mean.

[Pampkin_Christ]

Just now, ScorpDK said:

Well, that's the thing. Self-Damage should, by default, be only a fraction of its full damage potential. Which it isn't. If you hit something at point blank, chances are even your toughest, highest eHP frame will instantly turn into space dust from the blast. The enemy you aimed at, however, may still run around with only a percentage missing from its health pool. And that's why I think such a mod is a bandaid, since it's introducing a feature that should be there. If launchers did reduced damage to start, and you had a mod to further reduce the damage, I would be absolutely fine with its existence. It would be a buff, not a mandatory feature. I'm not good with words, but I hope you get what I mean.

If you ever played the original conclave it's the same concept from that. The enemies are much more durable than we are, we deal way more damage than we can take. Imagine if friendly fire was a mechanic and you accidentally shot a teammate with your Soma Prime or whatever, hell, even the Kraken, it'd be a one shot. This is the entire design of combat pretty much, we tend to deal more damage but can take less.

[ScorpDK]

1 minute ago, Nipple_McLickington said:

If you ever played the original conclave it's the same concept from that. The enemies are much more durable than we are, we deal way more damage than we can take. Imagine if friendly fire was a mechanic and you accidentally shot a teammate with your Soma Prime or whatever, hell, even the Kraken, it'd be a one shot. This is the entire design of combat pretty much, we tend to deal more damage but can take less.

Well, friendly fire already exists - the second you get proc'd with Radiation, you become a liability to the team / defense objective. Luckily there's not THAT many enemies/hazards that cause it.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Thundervision said:

Like many things in this game, it's good because of its concept (self-damage for a high damage output) and yet it's bad because of its execution. Also, I should've mentioned it in my first post that by «balanced» I meant said concept, my bad.

The thing is, DE don't balance anything around endless missions unless something has infinite scaling or close to it (Nyx with her Chaos, Loki with his Disarm, Equinox or old Mag's Polarize with Trinity's WoL+EV combo). We got Star Chart and the best they will do is balancing stuff around the Sortie: as long as Damage 2.0 is a thing Endless mode will be about how much longer you can survive before getting exhausted by enemy forces or boredom of making it to higher level/cheesing (one of the reasons many folks say capping the enemies level in endless mode would help, so you'd just fight endless spawns of mobs).

Should GLs have higher damage? Yes, they should (I won't argue on this one).

But then again, if they get more (like MORE) damage within current SC levels, it will be another Mirage+Tonkor/Simulor/Teltace/Atterax problem (and even in BL having a powerful RPG, non legendary, doesn't mean you won't get issues with killing grunts). There's basically no way to balance GLs w/o self-damage (well, nothing comes to my mind):

Reducing ammo reserve? It won't help 'cause of ammo drops/restores/Carrier/Ammo Mutation.

Min. fire distance? This could work for enemies so it wouldn't look awkward when a Bombard tries to perform a rocket jump, but for players it would be annoying as hell.

Mobility penalty? This sends us back to Sniper Rifles' scopes having sway while frames like Nova or Mag can dance with Jet Kitty/Fragor. Same goes for aim sensitivity.

I have a possible fix for the main problem.

Introduce this mod:

Fomorian infusion: This mod increases damage done by explosive weapons by 20% of the targets max health and by 10 per enemy level.

 

I know what people think about bandaid mods and such but heres the catch: This mod cannot by installed with serration.

With this launchers become effective weapons while they can keep the self damage to counterbalance it.

 

[TheBrsrkr]

Hey DE, when you merge my thread with another one, could you tell me next time? I've been looking for this thing for days. 

[(PSN)carlosfiiUSA]

Has anyone mentioned a self-damage cap? How about max 200 damage (after taking armor into account). Would still force you to be careful, but at least you wouldn't one-shot kill yourself everytime.

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, (PS4)carlosfiiUSA said:

Has anyone mentioned a self-damage cap? How about max 200 damage (after taking armor into account). Would still force you to be careful, but at least you wouldn't one-shot kill yourself everytime.

"But that doesnt make these extremely powerful weapons dangerous enough!" screamed a random tenno at a talon user while he obliterated half of the map with soma prime.

[rroorr]

I couldn't agree more. The game is too chaotic to keep track of grenades with rubber ball physics bouncing around like a squirrel on acid, and most of time it's not even worth the risk.