Self Damage

[MJ12]

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

I'm thinking the goal is to break end-game weapons and limit rewards for veteran players, at least where Tonkor is concerned.

If that was the goal, they would have targeted the V. Hek, which room-sweeps better than the Tonkor in most practical situations because it has much more consistent behavior and is easier to use. Ditto for the Sancti Tigris (I think that its faster reload actually makes it better for a lot of missions than the Prime even if it does less damage. "Oh no, I will only kill you two times over instead of three times over woe is me").

The Simulor falls off as levels scale, so the only endgame weapon nerfed here is the Tonkor, which now behaves much less consistently (lower crit chance), does less average damage (lower crit chance), and self-damages.

No, this is cargo cult balancing. It's "we have self-damage for grenades because other games have self-damage for grenades" without considering if this is desirable, useful, or even effective at balancing the Tonkor. Hint: People didn't think the Tonkor was OP because you could point-blank guys with it, it was because you could hit an area with very high damage without being close. Like, say, if you were hiding on top of a pillar, immune to self-damage...

Edited March 23, 2017 by MJ12

[DEATHLOK]

I think they will get to those other weapons in turn.

[Z1011]

The Kulstar is basically the secondary, older version of the Zarr, except with bomb droplets that fly more randomly and full self damage on those droplets. They bounce higher and don't follow the initial trajectory, like the Zarr. Can we have no self damage to those bomb droplets as well?

[MagPrime]

The sadomasochist in me says; no.

Why should self damage be removed?

[ZAXNIGHTMARE]

i'm agree with the exquisite MagPrime, why remove it?

Blast weapons are the most dangerous to manipulate, running with a RPG in other games are not a good idea, why here would be a good idea?

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, ZAXNIGHTMARE said:

i'm agree with the exquisite MagPrime, why remove it?

Blast weapons are the most dangerous to manipulate, running with a RPG in other games are not a good idea, why here would be a good idea?

Because they are weak as hell.

For example in Borderlands 2, i could have a rocket launcher with pure explosion damage and kill a horde of max level standard mobs in one shot and lets not talk about the more advanced rocket launcher that game has.

In Warframe i could get the ogris, kulstar, penta, angstrum, go against lv 100 enemies and watch them continously fall over from my shots but thats all. I need to empty the whole clip to do acceptable damage.

 

IF DE would decide to bring our explosive weapons to the level of other games than i would accept that we should have self damage, but currently max armored chroma can kill itself with the penta while still cannot scratch the charging heavy gunners/ techies/etc...

[ZAXNIGHTMARE]

45 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because they are weak as hell.

For example in Borderlands 2, i could have a rocket launcher with pure explosion damage and kill a horde of max level standard mobs in one shot and lets not talk about the more advanced rocket launcher that game has.

In Warframe i could get the ogris, kulstar, penta, angstrum, go against lv 100 enemies and watch them continously fall over from my shots but thats all. I need to empty the whole clip to do acceptable damage.

 

IF DE would decide to bring our explosive weapons to the level of other games than i would accept that we should have self damage, but currently max armored chroma can kill itself with the penta while still cannot scratch the charging heavy gunners/ techies/etc...

Tonkor got nerfed for that reason, to bring more balanced weapons, buyt still no sense that the ogris does less damage than tonkor, or atleast before Octavia's anthem update

[Fallen_Echo]

13 minutes ago, ZAXNIGHTMARE said:

Tonkor got nerfed for that reason, to bring more balanced weapons, buyt still no sense that the ogris does less damage than tonkor, or atleast before Octavia's anthem update

After the patch it still feels like it deals much less damage than the tonkor, but i need to test it.

[jmthebigman]

Honestly im fine with the extra danger on kulstar compared to the zarr.

Why? its a hand explosive with even easier to restock ammo than the zarr.

Also being more spammy.

 

So having an extra downside to a few more upsides isnt that bad.

[Xekrin]

This may seem fairly intuitive, but I really think a stat indicator in arsenal would be very appropriate for weapons that have or obtain self-damage properties via mods (Thunderbolt, Concealed explosives), as well as weapons that have it due to special circumstances (glaive weapons that explode when charged).

As part of my continual crusade to provide more information and transparency in the game rather than relying on the wiki, I believe having this information would really help players when using and modding weapons.

---

Additional stats that are still missing that I believe need added.

• Melee Range
• Melee slam attack radius/damage/special effects (heat sword, ohma, etc)
• Flight speed
• damage falloff range (shotguns)
• projectile trajectory deviation range (bows, throwing weapons)
• punch through (innate and modded)
• special mechanic effects (clouds on torid, pox and so on)
  • radius of cloud
  • damage per tick or second
  • status chance per tick
  • innate procs (implied toxin damage despite being combined to make corrosive)
• Explosive weapon blast radius
• any stat that is modifiable 

Thanks for your time.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Xekrin

[Echorion]

We were in a boss fight the other day and a guy had no idea they gave tonkor self damage- so he blew himself up like immediately and was surprised.

So yeah this may be a good idea.

[Ashnal]

You can safely assume that every weapon that has an explosion (minus the simulor) does self damage now. Simulor and Tonkor were always exceptions, not the rule. Not really a need for this when you understand that.

[Xekrin]

32 minutes ago, Ashnal said:

Not really a need for this when you understand that.

You also don't "need" to know that holding the mouse button down charges a bow, you'll figure it out in-game.  Or that some weapons shoot continuously and some require repeated mouse clicks to fire.  

I could reference dozens of things that easily just understood upon use or using common sense, that isn't the point.  Besides I already covered this.  Being literally the first words I wrote, also read the comment above yours.

Although you did remind me of another thing that should be listed even though its not "needed" in the strictest sense.  Blast radius.  Thanks.

 

 

[Ashnal]

Blast radius would be a welcome stat listing. Especially because there are mods that affect this.

I still don't think a self damage indicator is needed when almost all weapons with AoE explosions do self damage. Especially if you have a blast radius indicator. The fact that a weapon has a blast radius would indicate that it does AoE AND self damage. Two birds with one stone I say.

[Xekrin]

18 minutes ago, Ashnal said:

The fact that a weapon has a blast radius would indicate that it does AoE AND self damage.

Excellent point.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 23.03.2017 at 10:47 AM, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

annnnd the coming change gives the tonkor increased flight speed and less bounce. it also builds the tonkors laser sight into primary fire. you hold fire to activate the aiming guide and the gun only fires after you let go of the click so you know exactly where that grenade is going. how hard is it to lead a target?

These changes simply killed the gun. No biggie. Just what "people asked for". The fact that Tonkor was simple the lowest rank endgame weapon in warframe was ignored completely. Instead of increasing the mastery requirement of a "popular weapon" whoever made a decision decided to nerf the gun to the ground. Instead of fixing the self-damage. *thumb up* GG

[Fallen_Echo]

I have 3 solutions for self damage.

First: If you fire X weapon and the projectile would blow up in a way it would damage you, instead of arming itself it changes into a dull projectile dealing 50% less damge in impact, if you approach your grenade now on the ground it wont blow up at all instead it would convert itself into ammo.

 

Second: Breach charge, controlled detonation, proximity sensors. There are tons of fire modes what could be transformed into a weapon mod for launchers. Adding these in with some extra stat like +10% multishot or something would evene make these weapons more interesting.

For example:

Breach charge would change the projectiles aoe into a cone facing the way its moving (facing up when stopped with grenades)

Controlled detonation would give you the ability to blow up the charge when you want it and at the same time it would show an "aura" around the projectile to check if you are in range.

Proximity sensor would not let the projectile blow up if you are in the aoe range. This would mean firing blank shots.

 

Third: The explosions should hit us with the exact percentage of health damage as the current avarage health damage percentage they do to enemies. This would mean you can one-shot yourself at low levels but not in high levels where suicide weapons are a no-go.

 

[JackFletcher]

Before you read: If you are ok with the current Status of explosion weapons, then don't read further. This thread is not for you. Thanks!

With the Tonkor and Penta (through Tether Grenades) nerf, a long-existent weak spot has become more visible. The current self damage makes Launchers for me and a lot of the players base more annoying than fun (Again: this is out of discussion in this post - there are already enough threads about this topic).

But I also see the AOE-Weapons being much more effective than Rifles, Bows(and I really like Bows) etc., especially against Infested and without cc.

And to get a compromise, I want to present some of my Ideas to fix this Issue.

1. %-Dmg of Shields/Health - Instead of killing yourself instead you would deal some % of your max shields as self damage(for Nidus and Inaros it would be % of health). It could also be a % of combined health and shields.

2. Explosion proc/Knockdown/Stagger – You get knockdown or stagger. Whether its just a stagger or a knockdown and how long you are immovable could depend on the explosion distance.

3. Dmg-fall off – Explosions would only deal the full amount of damage in their center and less towards their edge.

I’d appreciate new suggestions, have a nice day and keep your salt away!

Edited March 27, 2017 by JackFletcher

[LSG501]

Yeah something needs to be done with self damage, I was levelling the talons last night and even after very basic mods I was able to commit suicide as often as I wanted....thought they'd be a nice alternative to castanas...nope they don't kill me lol.  In a way these are actually worse than tonkor/penta in as much as the target can actually come to you before  you get a chance to press 'explode'...

My personal choice is remove it seeing as we can't damage friendlies but I doubt that will happen so at the very least the amount of damage done to use needs to be lowered A LOT.

 

[jmthebigman]

No,

learn to use explosives, its not that difficult.

Only times I die is when theres a invisible wall or a team mate is being dumb and rushing into my face while I keep my distance of the others.

[LSG501]

Invisible wall/barriers, team mate in the way, enemies spawning on top of us, enemies moving closer to us, lag, bounces not going where you expect them to due to dodgy physics engine, grenade passing through enemy due to dodgy clipping masks and bouncing back at us..... yeah learning to use explosives isn't that hard, actually being able to use them without the aforementioned problems is....

Also best we get rid of that friendly fire protection as well then if it's all about 'get gud'... oh wait, as soon as that was put in with nightmare everyone complained because we died too quickly from self damage (warframes are VERY squishy against our weapons, even the sentinels could kill us in ff nightmare mode) and it was gone in a few days...

Edited March 27, 2017 by LSG501

[Zeclem]

i fail to see how thats an issue with talon. its explosives are controlled and youre supposed to stick them to walls on stuff for their bonus damage since they suck otherwise.

as for the rest of the explosives, those happen way too rare to even count. i havent even got nuked by an invisible wall before and i use my zarr and ogris quite a bit(tho recently starting to love secura penta). and enemies dont spawn on top of you, they got their spawn rooms. only ones that do gives a warning that covers your entire screen.

complain all you want, this is nothing but a git gud issue. they removed the friendly fire so people wont troll others. i mean gl dodging when trolls shoot at you with an ogris at 6 m range with terminal velocity. thats not something you will escape. you cant git gud there, but at aiming you are supposed to.

oh and this is the general discussion forum. this isnt your private place. i will make my opinions heard whether they lead to a discussion or not. just because you said "this isnt a discussion" wont mean anything to me, or anybody else.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Zeclem

[Hemmo67]

tbh i don't want to see %based self dmg because take trinity for example, you rush in blowup everything and bless. rinse repeat

and btw this could be done with tons of other frames not just trinity so we would have to nerf healing all together

[Enxel]

There are plenty of games that did it right, the grenades need time / travel distance to arm. hitting a target a close range should not detonate dealing like 1/4 of the damage to the one target.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I'm ok with it as is, but I think Smart Grenades would have been a better option.

for those who don't know how a Smart Grenade works, I'll explain: in Killing Floor 2, you are expected to fight at very close quarters ALL the time, even with highly explosive weaponry. in order to prevent players from killing themselves, they made it so that Explosives only detonate after travelling a certain distance. if the explosive hits something at close range, it deals massive Impact damage instead of exploding; you still get the damage, but without the AoE.

it works, and if Warframe adopted this, it would be a major improvement: players could use any launcher without the risk of self damage, but at the cost of only damaging a single target, so players would still be inclined to keep their distance in order to use the Launchers to their full potential. that said, I'm fine with simply having to be careful, and there are many alternatives you can use for close combat: powers, secondary weapons etc.