Lotus' true form

[Justice_Ember]

27 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

More like the Sentient was so good at her job she went like "Hmm, Ballas sexy boy, look at me! I'm your waifu, now with more Lotus motifs because I knoy you Orokin like them! Now you will give me FULL CONTROL of Warframe communications! ohohohohohohohohohoho"

I NE'd

[Rawrmonger]

On 2017-05-22 at 0:33 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

But why "lotus"?

She was there from the start, and cool names weren't taken yet :p

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

More like the Sentient was so good at her job she went like "Hmm, Ballas sexy boy, look at me! I'm your waifu, now with more Lotus motifs because I knoy you Orokin like them! Now you will give me FULL CONTROL of Warframe communications! ohohohohohohohohohoho"

So, I know this is a joke, but this is the same Ballas who cold heartedly sent Margulis to her death and then hijacked her work. If the Lotus had tried it that way, I reckon she'd be about halfway through her speech when the Dax bodyguards cut her head off.

[Sador1978]

She's a Sentient offspring of Hunhow.  He specifically uses the word "offspring" and not "fragment".  This implies that there is a Sentient body, the big crab looking shipthing, out there somewhere.  I don't think she'd be as big as he is/was, simply because she's not as old as he is(and no, I don't think he's actually dead, if part of him was in War when we broke it, where is the larger part that part came from?).  Her Sentient form could be as small as the Liset for all we know, which means it could be hidden literally anywhere in the system other than the stations and ships in the Void area. 

There are some objects conspicuously missing from the navigation map.  Objects that should, if the Orokin had a system spanning empire that was close enough to using up the resources of the Origin system that they needed to seek a new system to move to, have a garrison at least, if not a full blown colony.  In the inner system Pallas, Vesta, and Hygiea are missing from what should be the Asteroid Belt.  And in the outer system, mighty Titan, the most hospitable object in the solar system beyond Earth(yes I know it's a frigid ice ball with hydrocarbon rain, snow and lakes, but it's atmospheric pressure at the surface is 1.45x that at sea level on Earth.  You could literally walk around on the surface(in the 1/7th-ish gravity) in an insulated suit and helmet and an air bottle.  You don't need a pressure suit to survive, just life support.  Titan should be a YUGE! center of attention in the outer system, but in game it is represented by a single Grineer Galleon.  I suspect she's here, honestly.  But further out Sedna and Pluto are present, as is Eris. But Haumea and Makemake, which are closer in than Eris, are absent.

Essentially, assuming she's actually grounded and hidden within a planetary class mass, there's millions of square miles of unrepresented real estate for her to be hiding on or in.  Never mind a purpose built Relay class station WAY the hell out at the Heliopause with near perfect optical camoflage negating any of the minimal light that reaches if from the Sun.  If you want to hide, that'd be the place to do it, and since there seems to be FTL communications, at least, being 120 AU out would not be an issue.There's literally the vast majority of the system to hide in.

My money's on Titan though.  It's too big and too "friendly" to humans of an object NOT for there to be a huge presence on.

[Justice_Ember]

10 minutes ago, Sador1978 said:

She's a Sentient offspring of Hunhow.  He specifically uses the word "offspring" and not "fragment".  This implies that there is a Sentient body, the big crab looking shipthing, out there somewhere.  I don't think she'd be as big as he is/was, simply because she's not as old as he is(and no, I don't think he's actually dead, if part of him was in War when we broke it, where is the larger part that part came from?).  Her Sentient form could be as small as the Liset for all we know, which means it could be hidden literally anywhere in the system other than the stations and ships in the Void area. 

There are some objects conspicuously missing from the navigation map.  Objects that should, if the Orokin had a system spanning empire that was close enough to using up the resources of the Origin system that they needed to seek a new system to move to, have a garrison at least, if not a full blown colony.  In the inner system Pallas, Vesta, and Hygiea are missing from what should be the Asteroid Belt.  And in the outer system, mighty Titan, the most hospitable object in the solar system beyond Earth(yes I know it's a frigid ice ball with hydrocarbon rain, snow and lakes, but it's atmospheric pressure at the surface is 1.45x that at sea level on Earth.  You could literally walk around on the surface(in the 1/7th-ish gravity) in an insulated suit and helmet and an air bottle.  You don't need a pressure suit to survive, just life support.  Titan should be a YUGE! center of attention in the outer system, but in game it is represented by a single Grineer Galleon.  I suspect she's here, honestly.  But further out Sedna and Pluto are present, as is Eris. But Haumea and Makemake, which are closer in than Eris, are absent.

Essentially, assuming she's actually grounded and hidden within a planetary class mass, there's millions of square miles of unrepresented real estate for her to be hiding on or in.  Never mind a purpose built Relay class station WAY the hell out at the Heliopause with near perfect optical camoflage negating any of the minimal light that reaches if from the Sun.  If you want to hide, that'd be the place to do it, and since there seems to be FTL communications, at least, being 120 AU out would not be an issue.There's literally the vast majority of the system to hide in.

My money's on Titan though.  It's too big and too "friendly" to humans of an object NOT for there to be a huge presence on.

But does she needs to be a giant crab ship? Without knowing where her conciousness resides we really can't say if she's a giant crab or just her human form. I'd be pleasantly surprised in any of those scenarios

[Sador1978]

We assume she's a "crab ship" because Hunhow is a "crab ship" and offspring generally look like their forbears.  Keep in mind, the Sentients are "simple" machines any more.  The reason they rebelled in the first place was that their hyper-evolution, designed into them by the Orokin, made them into a sentient lifeform and not just a machine that follows it's programming, hence the name Sentient.  Their reproduction is probably asexual.  With the child budding off the adult.  But being spaceborne entities the child creature would need to be completely self sufficient immediately or very soon after(space does NOT favor the ill prepared at all).  So the Lotus' actual body would need to need to be a "crab ship" that was birthed from Hunhow before Hunhow made the jump to the Origin system, because it's ability to reproduce was destroyed by the jump event through the void.  She probably made the jump with him, in fact. 

1Being younger, perhaps only a thousand years at this point, DE is specifically vague about the timeline of events, but you get the idea that the Sentient's war with the Orokin went on for a while, perhaps many thousands of years, with Hunhow arriving to drive the final stake through heart of their enemy.  There might not ever have been many Sentient.  Given their base functions, there wouldn't have to have been because there wasn't a need.  Mechanical evolution wouldn't work like biological evolution, the base line intelligence of the machine would have figured out exactly what to change in the subsequent generation to meet a particular need.  Biology is the result of a shotgun approach.  So, there's a "crab ship" out there that is the actual Lotus.

[Monybags33]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:10 PM, Jackviator said:

Some speculate that the Lotus's helmet is actually the Lotus herself/her Sentient body, and she's basically "possessing" Margulis.

It would certainly explain her humanoid appearance.

This I can agree with. Gatta love those theorists out there.

[BetaNoire]

On 5/22/2017 at 5:23 PM, LightningsVengance said:

"Ordis, I have to use the bathroom" 

"Go in the hallway to the right, I;ll open the door

"Thanks." (opens door) 

"It's so dark in here..." The Tenno turned on the lights

"Ah that's beHOLYMOTHER OF LOTUS?!
 Lotus: "Oh hi Tenno..." And that's the real reason why the Tenno never use the bathroom. Never

Woulddt it be the door to the hangar?

 

On 5/22/2017 at 8:13 PM, NeithanDiniem said:

No, because that would kill her. The Orbiter is in the void, only pulled out of it very rarely, such as when she boarded your ship in The Second Dream. It also makes zero sense, as every Tenno has an orbiter. She isn't on all of them.

The Orbiter is in the void?

[Pavelord]

4 minutes ago, BetaNoire said:

The Orbiter is in the void?

yes, Ordis always mentions it, that is how the tenno keep stealth, so when they go on mission your Liset or other detaches from the orbiter and drop you on planet or ship.

[Krion112]

I have not engaged in lore discussion for a long time... mostly no point in doing so anymore, as most of the important questions have been bluntly answered, but I think I have an interesting idea:

Transference.

Yep, I think Lotus is a Sentient that used Transference to occupy a Human body. Maybe in a clone of Margulis, given cloning exists in Warframe, maybe in a Human that has no relation to Margulis, but nonetheless I find it likely she used Transference to take human form. It explains how she was able to infiltrate Orokin society, and thus explains why she was able to take command over the Tenno.

And given the necessary timeline, Transference already existed by the time Lotus would have been created to carry out this act. And given the Sentient were masters at subverting Orokin technology, it'd make sense if at some point they were able to take it during the war.

There's been nothing to suggest that Transference can't work in reverse like this, with an AI mind taking a Human host. 

[Wolfdoggie]

I thought this was her true form.

[SilvaDreams]

27 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

I thought this was her true form.

You do know people have looked under that and she has a full normal face right?

Those things you are taking as eyes are just extra optics.

[Chipputer]

19 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

You do know people have looked under that and she has a full normal face right?

Yeah that's not canon. They had to have something to stick the helmet on so they used a stock facial model.

 

The Lotus is not Margulis. People need to stop speculating that she is. There is exactly zero evidence that they are the same, she's a perfect replica, or anything else. Anybody using the voice acting as their proof hasn't stopped and thought about just how many voice actors DE actually has available. Anybody using the storyline as proof isn't using the storyline as proof because there's nothing in that story to say that she is.

Anybody who has to use phrases like, "maybe it didn't work the way that the lore established it and worked this way, instead," to justify their headcanon is doing nothing more than writing personal fanfiction. Margulis wasn't killed in some special way to preserve her body just so the Lotus could conveniently attach herself to her and look like her.

[BetaNoire]

1 hour ago, Wolfdoggie said:

I thought this was her true form.

Hm. Would still bang. I mean have stared far /d/eeper into the Abyss than this.

Still, I would prefer she kept her kinky mask on. I like purple and it goes with her eyes.

ALL that said this makes me believe in the Lotus =Hat/Headcrab theory.

I could see that. I don't know why I didnt notice it before.

I mean then the tentacles on the head could be apart of a cybersquid.

Edited May 24, 2017 by BetaNoire

[Zeiss17]

On 22/5/2017 at 7:44 PM, disco_inferno6 said:

The Sentient fragment (we call the Lotus) has chosen to do so in order to evoke in us trust and the warmth of motherly affections, thus being effective in exerting control over us.

"She" is well aware of the tactics of deception and infiltration.

Trust me. If it weren't for the devs, she'd have a bullet in her head already from my end. I'd take Teshin over her a million times over.

Edited May 24, 2017 by ShaneKahnnigan17

[BetaNoire]

4 hours ago, ShaneKahnnigan17 said:

Trust me. If it weren't for the devs, she'd have a bullet in her head already from my end. I'd take Teshin over her a million times over.

That is....if she's killable. For one thing, we don't know extent of her abilities. For another ....since the Sentient are robots....she could always be software like Skynet, not just hardware. 

On 5/22/2017 at 1:44 PM, disco_inferno6 said:

 

 

The Sentient fragment (we call the Lotus) has chosen to do so in order to evoke in us trust and the warmth of motherly affections, thus being effective in exerting control over us.

 

 

 

 

 

Well to be fair, let's suppose that Natah did what she was SUPPOSED to do.

Then we would all be dead.

But then on the flip side, let's suppose that they had died off/been destroyed a looong time ago. Would that have unforeseen consequences? 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On May 22, 2017 at 0:33 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

But why "lotus"?

Look to symbolism in the Lotus Flower:. Transformation.

Natah was sent as a double-agent cyber-assassin to end the Orokin Empire AND the Tenno (hence her dad being PISSED as to why she didn't finish the job after he sacrificed himself).

Natah was somehow transformed by Margulis and the Tenno children, becoming the Matriarchal benefactor in her current form after being made barren from Void travel.

I think that Hunhow is using that giant ship as a de facto extension of his body, but it isn't "him" any more than the drones are him.

I think he could assimilate and upgrade a Famorian if he wanted too... But it wouldn't be "him".

Edited May 24, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DSpite]

On 23/05/2017 at 2:22 AM, FoxyKabam said:

I like that

 

lets kill her and ordis so we can call it a day; finally be able to mod and color without pop ups

Why is it that when I suggest things like "Hey, there's an Excalibur Prime in the team, lets murder him and do research on the chopped up parts" or "why can't I ram my Liset into the Relay's reactor and cause a chain reaction", I get weird looks, but you want to kill Lotus ... LOTUS, and no one says anything?

[Justice_Ember]

I don't  remember if I read it somewhere or a friend told me but the Lotus could have been a group such as Archimedians and the Sentient Natah could've taken control over all these communicators an eventually choose just one to use indefinetely

 

[NeithanDiniem]

12 hours ago, Krion112 said:

I have not engaged in lore discussion for a long time... mostly no point in doing so anymore, as most of the important questions have been bluntly answered, but I think I have an interesting idea:

Transference.

Yep, I think Lotus is a Sentient that used Transference to occupy a Human body. Maybe in a clone of Margulis, given cloning exists in Warframe, maybe in a Human that has no relation to Margulis, but nonetheless I find it likely she used Transference to take human form. It explains how she was able to infiltrate Orokin society, and thus explains why she was able to take command over the Tenno.

And given the necessary timeline, Transference already existed by the time Lotus would have been created to carry out this act. And given the Sentient were masters at subverting Orokin technology, it'd make sense if at some point they were able to take it during the war.

There's been nothing to suggest that Transference can't work in reverse like this, with an AI mind taking a Human host. 

The issue I see with this is there is no need for a sentient that can create their own appearance at will to use transference. Margulis could easily have been turned into a cephalon rather than simply vaporized, and we know Sentients can subvert cephalons. We haven't seen anything about them using transference though, and anyone else that has used it outside of the Tenno would become trapped in the frame or whatever they were transferring to and be unable to leave it. They cant control transference like the Tenno can, who have a natural affinity for it thanks to their void powers (how exactly it helps we do not know). She could be using it, but it just doesn't follow a logical sense if we look at what else the sentients can do. It is still plausible though, I cant knock that.

30 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

I don't  remember if I read it somewhere or a friend told me but the Lotus could have been a group such as Archimedians and the Sentient Natah could've taken control over all these communicators an eventually choose just one to use indefinetely

That was ret-conned years ago. "Lotus" used to be an organization with "The Lotus" as its head. The rescue targets and the defense pods held Operatives that worked for the Lotus before the change. As it is currently understood right now Lotus is her own entity and the operatives are instead Tenno sympathizers from the general population's military. I don't even think the rescue targets and defense targets have a lotus symbol on them anymore. As for the Archimedians, those were the Orokin the Tenno executed at Outer Terminus, signaling the collapse of the empire.

[Justice_Ember]

7 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

That was ret-conned years ago. "Lotus" used to be an organization with "The Lotus" as its head. The rescue targets and the defense pods held Operatives that worked for the Lotus before the change. As it is currently understood right now Lotus is her own entity and the operatives are instead Tenno sympathizers from the general population's military. I don't even think the rescue targets and defense targets have a lotus symbol on them anymore. As for the Archimedians, those were the Orokin the Tenno executed at Outer Terminus, signaling the collapse of the empire.

As I see it, we need more background into how the Orokin controled the Tenno, and then we can speculate more on exactly how the Lotus got to control/convince/manipulate us into killing them. As it stands right now there is a huge lapse lorewise between Margulis death and the Orokin fall, and that it's critical for the Lotus "true-form".

There's one question we need answered before going further and that is where is the Lotus' Oro kept, since that is ultimately her "Soul" and where it is kept is her defacto truest form.

[Sarge_Tarmus]

On 22.05.2017 at 7:23 PM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Sentients can go into the Void, but it kills them so why would they? Personally I think they can make quick Void jumps and get away relatively unharmed except for being sterilized, with longer exposure poisoning and killing them eventually, with their smaller parts (Occulysts, Conculysts, & Battalysts) dying almost instantly. As for where the Lotus is, she probably has her own data-scape like the Cephalons do, since the Sentients are still machines, and I do believe that's what they hint at.

Hunhow used Cephalon Suda, to make Sentients immune to effects of being exposed to the Void. Maybe Lotus uses something similar...

[BornWithTeeth]

8 minutes ago, Sarge_Tarmus said:

Hunhow used Cephalon Suda, to make Sentients immune to effects of being exposed to the Void. Maybe Lotus uses something similar...

He didn't successfully make them immune, though. If you replay the quest, the Sentients which enter the Void begin suffering and dying and have reduced stats when you fight them.

Edited May 24, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

23 minutes ago, Sarge_Tarmus said:

Hunhow used Cephalon Suda, to make Sentients immune to effects of being exposed to the Void. Maybe Lotus uses something similar...

17 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

He didn't successfully make them immune, though. If you replay the quest, the Sentients which enter the Void begin suffering and dying and have reduced stats when you fight them.

Exactly why I'm saying what I said. Without protection their parts die instantly so it's not a far stretch to believe that their main bodies would take a little longer to whittle away, but they die nonetheless. And considering we only see the Lotus in transmissions, she probably doe shave her own private data-scape where she can see everything. Sentients are still just machines.

[EvilKam]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:22 PM, FoxyKabam said:

I like that

 

lets kill her and ordis so we can call it a day; finally be able to mod and color without pop ups

I guess I'll be the only guy in game to say it.  I like Ordis.  

------------------------edit----------------------------------

Unrelated, I'd like to thank you for using an apostrophe correctly in a thread title.  Take an upvote.  :D

Edited May 24, 2017 by EvilKam