Mastered Weapons - Solving innate damage mods in weaponry being scrapped

[Navarc]

MASTERED WEAPONS
Damage 3.0 as it was initially described to us was scrapped partially due to the addition of Rivens*, it included the standard damage mods being innate in weapons, multishot consuming more ammo* and damage going up by ranking the weapon. Now Damage 3.0 seems to be about adding immortality to enemies if you don't shoot points which doesn't give us the mod slot we've been waiting for since obligatory mods are pretty upsetting. The reasoning is that DE again does not want to waste peoples effort they've put into maxing these mods. Similar to the Hema cost reasoning. Whether you agree or disagree with Hema it isn't relevant here so let's not discuss that, I'm aware of the similarities and when I've talked to people it always gets derailed because of their opinion on a completely different matter.

Alright, so I was thinking I'm sure there's some kind of compromise to not have the mods be innate but still get us a slot for the obligatory mod. DE has made abilities innate instead of mods you put on your warframe and they've made Exilus for mods that had such a minimal effect they weren't used. Let's use the most recent system out of those.

Mastery - How would it work?
After inserting 5 formas an Exilus Adapter into an item, you're given the option to MASTER an item. The item gets a new slot that only fits a standard damage mod on a weapon. (Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, Pressure Point, Primed Pressure Point)
This slot will be next to the Weapon Stance, similar to a Warframes Exilus. It will use the polarity of that weapon categories damage mods polarity. Only single stat damage mods will work here, for example you cannot put a Spoiled Strike in it because it has 2 stats.
I think this should suffice to make both the types of people content who don't want another slot on their weapons because they put time into their serration & people who would gladly lose their damage mods for another slot.
Let me know what your thoughts are on this. Would you prefer a different resource be used for mastery? Is it too steep? Too low? Should your mastery rank be involved somehow, like limiting the amount of mastered weapons to your mastery ranks level? Do you have a better solution than this clumsy merging of systems (forma & exilus)?

Clarification
I'm not saying damage 3.0 and further updates to damage should all be cancelled and that a mod slot is the perfect solution to all problems related to damage. It's not.
I'm saying I'd like the mod slot many of us have been hoping for since the chance of innate damage mods in weapons was mentioned and then cancelled. This thread is not about solving or adding to damage 3.0, but about that specific part of the concept that was scrapped.

Thanks for reading this far, if you're interested in my ideas for the game and have time I'd love suggestions, input and critique on my other feedback thread in the WF&Abilities section.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Navarchus

[RealisticName]

[Photovoltaeic]

seems legit

[Navarc]

Just now, kbowser said:

seems legit

So you agree with all parts of it, the idea itself, the cost of 5 forma and no capacity on how many weapons you can master as long as you have the time to rank it up that many times & have formas to afford it? That's great man, thanks for the support. Seeing a lot of people giving it 1+ really glad to get so much support.

[RealisticName]

8 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

So you agree with all parts of it, the idea itself, the cost of 5 forma and no capacity on how many weapons you can master as long as you have the time to rank it up that many times & have formas to afford it? That's great man, thanks for the support. Seeing a lot of people giving it 1+ really glad to get so much support.

I think it's safe to say almost everybody agrees with it, I may be wrong but for veterans who forma a ton, this is great for them

[Fallen_Echo]

I think it would be better to simply make a forma slot on the weapon.

You sacrafice a forma, the gear gets resetted and you get a mod slot for base damage mods.

Less grindy than the original suggestion and fair enough for everybody.

[Xekrin]

40 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

The reasoning is that DE again does not want to waste peoples effort they've put into maxing these mods.

I truly wish this wasn't used as an excuse by DE or anyone really.  It would be one thing if they released a brand new mod with 10 ranks, and it made a weapon all powerful, then a week later removed it from the game or changed it or whatever.  That would be bad on DE's part and certainly compensation to those who maxed it out would be applicable.

Saying that those who ranked up serration/other mandatory mods is a waste is just a silly thing.  They chose to rank it, its been out for years, and they used it all that time.  They lose nothing if those mods went byebye.  They played the game with those mods for a long time, they got their endo's worth, so to speak.  DE should not be afraid to rework their systems based on hurting a player's feelings.

Had to get that out of the way.  Anyway, great idea.  I'd still prefer the innate damage rank up thing originally discussed, but if we can't have that, it'd be nice to have some form of damage 3.0 that involved making weapons in general better, not just how enemies scale.

[Navarc]

7 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

I truly wish this wasn't used as an excuse by DE or anyone really.  It would be one thing if they released a brand new mod with 10 ranks, and it made a weapon all powerful, then a week later removed it from the game or changed it or whatever.  That would be bad on DE's part and certainly compensation to those who maxed it out would be applicable.

Saying that those who ranked up serration/other mandatory mods is a waste is just a silly thing.  They chose to rank it, its been out for years, and they used it all that time.  They lose nothing if those mods went byebye.  They played the game with those mods for a long time, they got their endo's worth, so to speak.  DE should not be afraid to rework their systems based on hurting a player's feelings.

Had to get that out of the way.  Anyway, great idea.  I'd still prefer the innate damage rank up thing originally discussed, but if we can't have that, it'd be nice to have some form of damage 3.0 that involved making weapons in general better, not just how enemies scale.

I know that if they did it they'd return us the endo we spent but even had they not I'd love a new slot on all my weapons in exchange for 4 mods.
But if there are people opposed to it as DE has stated in 3 or so streams then I really believe this solution works for both sides. So far I've not seen any critique on how it wouldn't so I'm hoping that means it's fully reasonable.

 

I think it would be better to simply make a forma slot on the weapon.

You sacrafice a forma, the gear gets resetted and you get a mod slot for base damage mods.

Less grindy than the original suggestion and fair enough for everybody.

So you pay one forma to unlock a slot rather than a polarity, or do you mean that after you've invested one forma in a polarity change you're immediately able to master it?
I feel like that wouldn't give as much of a rewarding feeling and the game does have a lot of grind but I can't agree that 1 forma is really a fair amount for this kind of thing, especially considering that people who fall in love with a weapon usually have at least 4 forma, so I figured the 5th as you get to your "second row" in some cases it'll make sense for you to now be a master of it.

You wouldn't be gaining mastery EXP from doing this, mind you. There's no point in adding forma to all weapons unless you absolutely love every single weapon equally I suppose.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Navarchus

[Fallen_Echo]

44 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

So you pay one forma to unlock a slot rather than a polarity, or do you mean that after you've invested one forma in a polarity change you're immediately able to master it? 

I pay a forma and ordis "builds" another slot into the weapon. No polarity and preferably no point consuption.
I feel like that wouldn't give as much of a rewarding feeling and the game does have a lot of grind but I can't agree that 1 forma is really a fair amount for this kind of thing, especially considering that people who fall in love with a weapon usually have at least 4 forma, so I figured the 5th as you get to your "second row" in some cases it'll make sense for you to now be a master of it.

You wouldn't be gaining mastery EXP from doing this, mind you. There's no point in adding forma to all weapons unless you absolutely love every single weapon equally I suppose. I currently own approx 40 weapons and from those theres atleast 10 i would happily use up another forma to get one more modslot.

Forming weapons get tiring fast, so i hope that if a system like this ever gets implemented it eliminates the point cost of the said damage mod.

For  example my current hek build has 0 avaible points to spend if i want to add in anything to the new slot i need to forma it 2 more times atleast.

[Navarc]

20 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Forming weapons get tiring fast, so i hope that if a system like this ever gets implemented it eliminates the point cost of the said damage mod.

For  example my current hek build has 0 avaible points to spend if i want to add in anything to the new slot i need to forma it 2 more times atleast.

Alright well perhaps an outright Exilus is the way to go then rather than forma.
I hadn't taken into account that people who didn't play for years in the old void won't have abundant forma, which take time to farm, create and then use what with having to rank to max again. The new fissure system that replaced the void doesn't give you about 3 formas between each prime part so rethinking it, I think perhaps 5 is too much but I do think 1 is too little and when you have all warframes and they're all with an exilus, perhaps we should give Exilus more purpose and the system is based on the Exilus Slot system to begin with so it would make things more consistent.

[Fallen_Echo]

14 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Alright well perhaps an outright Exilus is the way to go then rather than forma.
I hadn't taken into account that people who didn't play for years in the old void won't have abundant forma, which take time to farm, create and then use what with having to rank to max again. The new fissure system that replaced the void doesn't give you about 3 formas between each prime part so rethinking it, I think perhaps 5 is too much but I do think 1 is too little and when you have all warframes and they're all with an exilus, perhaps we should give Exilus more purpose and the system is based on the Exilus Slot system to begin with so it would make things more consistent.

Well im sitting on 97 built forma currently but an exilus would be surely better.

[Navarc]

20 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well im sitting on 97 built forma currently but an exilus would be surely better.

Alright, the cost has been made more consistent and reasonable now! Thanks for the input.

[LuckyCharm]

Personally i dont think id be for the idea. To me it just sounds like adding an extra mod slot which still means the optimal mods are still there, just you have one more spot to put in another damage mod. Say i took serration and put it in the new slot. Suddenly i have room for bladed rounds.

If i was to say anything weapon wise for damage 3.0 its either the ability to convert damage types from one to another, the removal of elemental weakness for different factions.. but the main suggestion that ive seen and like are universal forma polarities letting you swap mods at will

[Navarc]

11 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Personally i dont think id be for the idea. To me it just sounds like adding an extra mod slot which still means the optimal mods are still there, just you have one more spot to put in another damage mod. Say i took serration and put it in the new slot. Suddenly i have room for bladed rounds.

If i was to say anything weapon wise for damage 3.0 its either the ability to convert damage types from one to another, the removal of elemental weakness for different factions.. but the main suggestion that ive seen and like are universal forma polarities letting you swap mods at will

LuckyCharm, the issue is that many people that have watched the streams the past 2 years have been hearing, talking and thinking about what to do when they get their new mod slot from damage 3.0 making damage mods innate in weapons. That was scrapped. Meaning that we're still stuck with the mandatory mod and this thread is a compromise to add it despite damage 3.0 not happening at least not as it was described to us.

I'm not talking about delete all future ideas for solving scaling etc in exchange for a mod slot. My suggestion is not my version of damage 3.0.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Navarchus

[peterc3]

The solution to "Damage 3.0" in whatever form the community imagined it to be not coming imminently is not just slapping another slot on to a weapon.

[Navarc]

Just now, peterc3 said:

The solution to "Damage 3.0" in whatever form the community imagined it to be not coming imminently is not just slapping another slot on to a weapon.

Perhaps you should read the post above yours.

[peterc3]

4 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Perhaps you should read the post above yours.

How does my response not follow? Damage 3.0 is essentially a fractal of complexity in trying to "fix" a basic piece of the game. This thread is proposing to bridge the gap between now and whenever the damage system is able to get a through looking at with... an extra slot.

Your initial post made reference to when ability cards were integrated and at that time we technically lost 2 mod slots.

So again, just slapping on an additional mod slot changes nothing and makes things even harder to build content for with people now having access to even more mods on weapons.

[Achernaerii]

That idea is both interesting and seems quite easy to be implemented. 

Mastering weapons of choice would be fantastic. Even though I often change my load-outs, I still have my favorite weapons. Being able to give them some more power and customization would be awesome.

My idea was to do something similar to lenses, where, once implemented, such lens would gather XP for that weapon, once the bar is filled, additional mod slot would be unlocked. I imagined max 2 slots, and each one of them would not use mod capacity. I scrapped that idea, because it was really unbalanced and many players hate the Focus farming, which, this form of mastery I had in mind, resembles. 

Your idea, Navarchus, is way less confusing for players, and still allows to upgrade a selected weapon. I have only one question - what about mod capacity?  You wrote:

On 5/23/2017 at 1:17 PM, Navarchus said:

It will use the polarity of that weapon categories damage mods polarity.

But will it reduce cost somehow? Even now, some weapons after 5 or 6 Formae start being one trick pony, and mods are hard to replace even, when we are able to have 3 mod presets. I have nothing against having polarities, or additional mod slot, but at some point it just somewhat locks you to using a particular build.

Let's not forget, that the same problem is with warframe Exilus Slot. It does give additional space at the cost of two Formae, but it takes quite a lot of mod capacity even when the polarities match. Giving Exilus to weapons would make for a good moment to ask about taking away the capacity cost of mods, that we put in Exilus slot. Then it would be more than just (an often forgotten) addition, and would be really useful. People would start using more Exilus slots to give themselves more freedom in builds, and at the same time, power.

Anyway, I really like this idea of yours. Every step in the right direction is welcome.

[Navarc]

11 minutes ago, Khorroden said:

That idea is both interesting and seems quite easy to be implemented. 

Mastering weapons of choice would be fantastic. Even though I often change my load-outs, I still have my favorite weapons. Being able to give them some more power and customization would be awesome.

My idea was to do something similar to lenses, where, once implemented, such lens would gather XP for that weapon, once the bar is filled, additional mod slot would be unlocked. I imagined max 2 slots, and each one of them would not use mod capacity. I scrapped that idea, because it was really unbalanced and many players hate the Focus farming, which, this form of mastery I had in mind, resembles. 

Your idea, Navarchus, is way less confusing for players, and still allows to upgrade a selected weapon. I have only one question - what about mod capacity?  You wrote:

But will it reduce cost somehow? Even now, some weapons after 5 or 6 Formae start being one trick pony, and mods are hard to replace even, when we are able to have 3 mod presets. I have nothing against having polarities, or additional mod slot, but at some point it just somewhat locks you to using a particular build.

Let's not forget, that the same problem is with warframe Exilus Slot. It does give additional space at the cost of two Formae, but it takes quite a lot of mod capacity even when the polarities match. Giving Exilus to weapons would make for a good moment to ask about taking away the capacity cost of mods, that we put in Exilus slot. Then it would be more than just (an often forgotten) addition, and would be really useful. People would start using more Exilus slots to give themselves more freedom in builds, and at the same time, power.

Anyway, I really like this idea of yours. Every step in the right direction is welcome.

One of the things I considered with the 5 forma investing idea, you'd in many cases be locked into a certain build so would one slot really open up that many opportunities for variety or would it JUST be an upgrade at that point? That's why I think changing the price from forma to exilus is a lot wiser.
The issue with mod costs will be present in weapons more commonly with this addition, I do realize that & making the weapons "mastery slot" always be the right polarity for that weapons category I feel helps with that problem. But definitely doesn't solve the issue. Especially not with Melee Rivens on the way, we all know how incredibly costing those are.
In order to utilize the mastery slot properly you probably want to put your exilus into a weapon you already have a couple of forma in to make sure you'll actually utilize the slots you're given. But it's up to DE to reconsider the worth of some mods.

Should the common Lasting Sting cost 16 and the uncommon Blood Rush cost 14? I don't think so personally with one being far more popular, valued, having more use in builds & more weapons benefitting from the latter . But that kind of balancing is really beyond this thread and for a future thread.

[Achernaerii]

21 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Should the common Lasting Sting cost 16 and the uncommon Blood Rush cost 14? I don't think so personally with one being far more popular, valued, having more use in builds & more weapons benefitting from the latter . But that kind of balancing is really beyond this thread and for a future thread.

Lasting Sting was one of the mods I had in mind when I was writing about Capacity problems . Yeah, some balancing in this department would be appreciated form DE, but that's something worth a whole megathread. This idea over here is a simple, but much required step to giving more build options. Channeling mods are not that Capacity consuming, but theres hardly place for them on melee weapons, while zoom mods or magazine mods hardly get any attention on Primary/ Secondary weaponry. With even one more slot, the build options would be widened, and some not commonly used mods would finally find place among pure DMG mods.

[Mousarchy]

On 5/23/2017 at 7:00 AM, RealisticName said:

I think it's safe to say almost everybody agrees with it, I may be wrong but for veterans who forma a ton, this is great for them

considering i spent 1200p on forma bundles alone a few months back...ya anything to use less forma (specially since forma is STILL on a 24hour build time) I would GLADLY give up 2 forma (exilus) for the chance to make a 5-7forma build.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

What I am getting from this is essentially just using an exlius adapter to give players an additional mod-slot on their weapons that can only use +damage% mods. Correct?

How does this solve/fix anything?

[Navarc]

12 hours ago, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

What I am getting from this is essentially just using an exlius adapter to give players an additional mod-slot on their weapons that can only use +damage% mods. Correct?

How does this solve/fix anything?

You can click the links in a post to open them up, allowing you to see further information if there's something you're not caught up on.
I said this a few times now but many players have been very excited to have a new slot open on their weapons with things like serration, hornet strike, pressure point and so on becoming innate in weaponry but it was scrapped as not to waste peoples time they've put into those mods despite the likeliness that the endo would be refunded.
This thread solves the issue between wanting another slot but not wanting to lose their mods and the progression involved upgrading those mods.

[DSpite]

This idea does not make the game "better", it just gives us the ability to get more killing power out of guns and nothing else.

Forma should not exist in its current form. Rivens should not exit in their current form. There is no ability to "tinker with builds" because we have scaling enemies in a horde shooter, and the way to deal with that is not better tactics or in making a different build in order to tank a boss, or sniping or team support, we tinker with builds to "kill ever increasingly spongy enemies" and that is ALL we do.

If you play Guild Wars 2, everything scales along with you, and the "harder enemies" as just that, enemies that have additional mechanics and are harder for "everyone" and not just those without Syndicate Weapons, a ton of Forma, and a Riven in every weapon.

No matter what you add to things now, players will just look at it and think "can I slot more damage in there now to shave off an extra few minutes off a mission?", and that is where "variety" goes out the window anyway.

The modules system in EVE Online's and Dust 514 is the only way that I could see Warframe becoming "balanced" in the way people keep using that word, and that will never happen, because that is not the direction this game was created for.

 

 

[Navarc]

6 hours ago, DSpite said:

This idea does not make the game "better", it just gives us the ability to get more killing power out of guns and nothing else.

Forma should not exist in its current form. Rivens should not exit in their current form. There is no ability to "tinker with builds" because we have scaling enemies in a horde shooter, and the way to deal with that is not better tactics or in making a different build in order to tank a boss, or sniping or team support, we tinker with builds to "kill ever increasingly spongy enemies" and that is ALL we do.

If you play Guild Wars 2, everything scales along with you, and the "harder enemies" as just that, enemies that have additional mechanics and are harder for "everyone" and not just those without Syndicate Weapons, a ton of Forma, and a Riven in every weapon.

No matter what you add to things now, players will just look at it and think "can I slot more damage in there now to shave off an extra few minutes off a mission?", and that is where "variety" goes out the window anyway.

The modules system in EVE Online's and Dust 514 is the only way that I could see Warframe becoming "balanced" in the way people keep using that word, and that will never happen, because that is not the direction this game was created for.

 

 

You're really missing the point entirely here about players expectations, two different sides of an argument and solving an issue while not upsetting either side. You're very off-topic.
See, mods don't modify in warframe. I think that's where you're losing track of what they are. They amplify, upgrade them. It's not a fitting word but their purpose hasn't been to add variety as much as they are to amplify a weapons capability. There are mods that do what mods generally do called Corrupted Mods but this suggestion is unrelated to them.

If you don't know what the thread is about please watch the videos linked in the first post or read again. If you're trying to derail the thread because you disagree and you're trying to get it locked I'd like you to stop. Thanks.