Let's talk Channeling.

[TheBrsrkr]

Channeling is one of those things in Warframe that gets immediately overlooked by everyone who isn't a new player that doesn't know any better. If you ask anyone about channeling, they'd just be like "yeah, Life Strike is good", which is really what it amounts to for nearly everyone. That can't be good. Even Melee only players, when you can find them, never even consider channeling at any point. So what's the deal? 

 

First off, channeling uses energy which has to compete with power usage,and powers are straight up better in every way. This is an issue that I don't think will ever get fixed, because powers are really just meant to be better than the old hack and slash. However, it doesn't have to be that useless. Which would you rather in any situation. The weakest power of any Warframe, doesn't matter who, or a 1.5x multiplier on one hit, on one enemy? Sure, it only costs 5 energy, but you're still better off saving it for something else than using it for channeling. Speaking of which....

 

Why do all weapons have the same base stats for channeling? I think there's only 3 that don't, and they're all relatively new. It makes no sense to me. I'm supposed to believe the Kogake, a single target, multiple hitting tiny weapon has the exact same channeling efficiency and multiplier as the Scindo Prime? As the Atterax? As the Skana? It's the same for everything, everywhere, regardless of how the weapons actually work! That's nonsense.

Another thing is the way channeled block works. Per hit? Really? Most enemy units have continously firing weapons. Why would I use it just for all my energy to disappear from one burst from an enemy Hind, at any level? It's more of a danger than the actual bullets themselves.

 

Next are the mods. There are 15 channeling mods in the game, and of them, 2 are being used. One is life strike, and the other is Focus Energy, which isn't even used because of the channeling part. The rest are worse than  useless. You can't centre a build around channeling, because giving up a regular damage or status mod for a channeling mod reduces the output of the channeling anyway, meaning you trying to improve it is actually gimping it further. In addition, most of the effects aren't even that useful and almost always negatively affect channeling efficiency, making you want to use them even less. Let's have a look at some of them:

Quickening: a crappy Fury that costs even more energy to use.

True Punishment : a crappy True steel that costs even more energy to use. 

Enduring Strike: a dual state mod with no stats that costs even more energy. I'm seeing a pattern here. 

Corrupt Charge : doubles channeling damage while almost doubling the cost. Which means you need another mod to offset the cost. Which reduces overall damage. For twice the already poor damage increase. Joy. 

I could (and should) go on, but this thread is long enough already. So, how do we fix it? 

 

First of all, I propose we make channeling a state the Warframe is in, rather than a simple boost to the weapon. Give the frame using  it a good sized boost to everything. Movement speed, bullet jump distance, attack speed, jump and double jump  height and distance, wall latch time, slam radius,  the works. This would make it useful at all times if not just for getting around,and actually help on Melee combat in ways other than raw damage. And I mean high, like 20-30%.

Next, make it so that the state constantly drains energy at 2.5 per second (or round down to 2) as a standard. Instead of every weapon having the same channeling bonus and efficiency, have them differ by weapon type. For instance, you could give swords a 2.5x multiplier with a 2.5 energy/sec cost, and give the Kogake a 2.0x multiplier with a 1.8 energy/sec cost, and the Scindo  a 3.0x multiplier with a 3.5 energy/sec cost, and so on and so forth. Maybe you can have weapons that specialize in channeling such as nunchaku or polearms or even fists. 

Remove the efficiency penalties from some of the channeling mods, and   buff some of them. 20% attack speed isn't that big of a deal to have to spend more energy to get it. 50% attack speed, though, that's something else. That's something I'd give a bit of energy for. You're already sacrificing a mod slot for it, no need to make us suffer while we're at it. In fact, some of these mods could be merged, since the energy being sacrificed for them is what should make them more powerful. I wouldn't mind giving up a mod slot for increasing both status and crit in one mod by channeling. Channeling mods have to be more powerful than the regular mods to compete with powers for usage. 

Channeled Blocking should add 3 to whatever energy/sec calculation you're using. It is rendering you completely invincible (from the front) and it should cost you, but not cost you so much you have no more  energy in less  than 2 seconds. 

[Alpha_Zerg]

I use channelling when I'm far enough into an end-game survival to need extra damage, because by that time energy isn't really a problem anymore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[[DE]Rebecca]

Channeling is the 'unique and cool concept' that doesn't really compete in practice... interesting thoughts! 

[Arezael]

It speaks volumes about the state of Channelling when the biggest increase in usage of the function came from the introduction of a weapon that increased credit drops.

Shortly followed by another dip in usage after said bonus was cut down in potency.

 

[PrVonTuckIII]

Generally speaking, I am of the opinion that melee in general needs a rework. 2.0 was good, but there is little variety in the melee classes other than minor changes in stats, certain attacks (coughwall-attackscough) are completely useless, the stance system is nothing more than extra mods to farm, and as you said, Channeling doesn't fulfill any purpose. It needs a serious looking-at.

[RealisticName]

11 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is the 'unique and cool concept' that doesn't really compete in practice... interesting thoughts! 

 

[Xekrin]

26 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Channeling mods have to be more powerful than the regular mods to compete with powers for usage. 

So much yes here I do not know where to begin so I won't.  Just yes.

BTW, can you rewrite status chance and continuous beam weapons next please?

[DatDarkOne]

Dispatch Overdrive and Killing Blow are two channeling mods that I like to use that don't increase channeling costs.  I love both of them and use them together on some weapons.  

edit:  I will admit to avoiding the channeling mods that increased costs or used way more energy.  Life Strike was the only exception to that rule until Healing Return came out.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DatDarkOne
additional info

[Navarc]

I think this is one of the few threads around that I fully agree and support. I'd love to see any of your suggestions to channeling be added. Preferably all.

[Rhundis]

I like it, the idea not channeling in its current state.

Because not only does it provide an interesting effect, but you could also extend this beyond melee to ranged weapons as well. Basically making channeling a "Hypermode" so to speak, temporarily increasing your base stats at the cost of a continual energy drain. 

Heck, you could even make a frame around the concept. There's so much Merritt in the idea that it can pretty much plug into everything Warframe currently offers. Now from a coding standpoint that's another story, still DE did manage to give us our prime toggle for Tennogen so they could probably pull off another miracle.

 

[ScorpDK]

The main problem with channeling right now - for me -  is the energy usage. If you use a fast weapon, 5 energy per enemy struck is a massive problem, especially if you can hit several enemies with a single strike (not to mention actually equipping channel mods that increase this). You starve yourself of energy faster than you realize, and after a few seconds you probably burned through your entire pool unless you're on a caster frame with Primed Flow. At that point, you realize that we simply do not have enough energy for the way the game uses it up. Even if you maximize efficiency to 1 energy, you can still burn through rapidly.
For Channeling to be useful in such scenario, we would have to have 10x as much energy (all abilities and restores/auras scaled up to match, obviously), to make channeled blocks and strikes to be a bread-and-butter tactic. Because when I have 1500 energy, having my swings cost 1-5 energy is less of a problem as when I only have 150.

So your idea of having channeling be a slow, constant drain would potentially be a solution.
Now, since you suggest it improves your frames overall statistics as a whole...would it be linked to your frames' power stats for efficiency/damage/reach/duration multipliers - or would it feasibly continue being just a melee-centric thing controlled by mods in your weapon?

Channel 2.0 - Would its overhaul merit a new UI screen on the arsenal to configure your frame's channeling setup?

Edited May 23, 2017 by ScorpDK

[Miser_able]

Yea, I only use it during stealth missions to hide corpses. 

Also I have a problem with it that you didn't mention. With multi strike weapons it consumes energy on all hits even if they die on the first hit. For example dagger stealth kills, the attack hits twice but the enemy is dead from the first hit, and yet it consumes energy twice. 

[blackheartstar_pc]

I use channeling quite a bit. Pretty much goes like this. Does the weapon have a high crit stat? Does it have a high status? If the answer to both of those are no then I go channeling. Though I will say I only use some combination of the same few channeling mods ever time though. Focus Energy, Killing Blow, Reflex Coil, and or Dispatch Overdrive. If I had it I would probably use Enduring Affliction as well. I hate the mods that decrease channeling efficiency. Maybe if they gave higher bonuses I would figure out a use for them but with their current stats I pass on them every time.

Edited May 23, 2017 by blackheartstar_pc

[Thundervision]

What keeps bothering me is, that Channeling uses frame's energy while frame's stats don't even affect it. What is a melee weapons? It's just a weapon, it doesn't decide what and how to channel. Our frames do this.

I mean, the logical way would be:

A highly efficient warframe channeling his energy through a melee weapon would result in very efficient channeling attacks.

if we also add Str (questionable, 'cause it's Power Strength, not just Strength):

A warframe with high Power Strength and, say, low Efficiency would deal powerful, but costly channeling hits.

Wouldn't be?

Now you mentioned drain-over-time. Duration could be used as well (even if  in order to use channeling there would be a channeling bar we gotta fill with melee hits/kills or just CD: high duration would mean longer CD while the short one would do the opposite).

Just a thought, I do like your idea.

 

This is the core of system I have issues with. I'm not gonna mod most of my slots for a specific mode that is not only slighty better than a non-channeling one but also consumes my energy. Why would I even consume my energy further? 

Endless mode: the longer we play the more Eximi pop out thus the more energy you lose thanks to beloved Energy Leechers (that still don't have LoS, drain rate affected by range or dropping a portion of drained energy when killed). Then we have specific non-Eximi enemies that can drain our energy as well and there's no way to restore it back but via: Energy Siphon, Rage mod, RNG orbs from killed enemies, minority of frames that can restore their energy under specific conditions.

And then there's a mentioned Channel blocking: while you have set DR-%s with non-channel blocking turning it on for a 100% DR will drain your energy faster than you say «WHOA». Bullet Jump and Ground Slam have better defense & CC capabilities at the cost of 0 energy.

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

You're already sacrificing a mod slot for it, no need to make us suffer while we're at it. In fact, some of these mods could be merged, since the energy being sacrificed for them is what should make them more powerful. I wouldn't mind giving up a mod slot for increasing both status and crit in one mod by channeling. Channeling mods have to be more powerful than the regular mods to compete with powers for usage.

So much this (and to be honest, the same thing goes for Focus' passives. Some systems seem to repesent a Corrupted one: mostly minor boosts with a huge downside/cost)

[Evanescent]

I would actually like channeling to unlock special, alternate attacks with unique movesets that vary from weapon-class to weapon class.

Charged attacks would be altered, such as:

• Ragdolling shield bash for sword and board weapons
• Spinning cleave that releases a wave of energy for heavy blades (think old galatine charge attack) 
• Ground slam that stuns and knocks down enemies in a large area for hammers
• Rapid shots on all enemies in an area for gunblades (similar to peacemaker)
• Rapid flurry of X slashes releasing short ranged bursts of damaging energy for nikanas

You get the idea.

 

You could extricate the channeling system from the energy system and tie it to a sort of 'stamina' system, and use the old stamina mechanic to feed this new system.

You would gain stamina by scoring kills, and the higher your combo counter the faster it regenerates.

Blocking while channeling should consume a set amount of energy upfront to block all incoming frontal damage for however long block is kept held down.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is the 'unique and cool concept' that doesn't really compete in practice... interesting thoughts! 

I got noticed! Squee! 

 

1 hour ago, RealisticName said:

 

Well, she's not exactly wrong, channeling is a cool concept. Pumping space energy into a space katana to buff its effects is cool in theory, just not so much in practice. 

[ScorpDK]

1 minute ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Well, she's not exactly wrong, channeling is a cool concept. Pumping space energy into a space katana to buff its effects is cool in theory, just not so much in practice. 

Yeah. The first thing you should be thinking of when mentioned the concept of "channeling void energy into your weapon" is... Excalibur's Exalted Blade.
However, what we got right now is...essentially a somewhat weak damage boost that drains your energy very, very quickly with each hit.
I think the only channel mod that's not merely a weak buff to some stat...is actually Life Strike. Unless I am missing another.

I tried to make a max speed build with Quickening, Berserker, all possible crit rate boosters (including the channel one), and while you can reach some ridiculous speed... you're ending up not actually doing that much damage at all.

Quickening on a stealth kill weapon with maxed Primed Fury may have some potential, but the energy drain may not be worth it.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, ScorpDK said:

I think the only channel mod that's not merely a weak buff to some stat...is actually Life Strike. Unless I am missing another.

Yes, you are missing another.  A few in fact.   I named two in my earlier post above.  Killing Blow and Dispatch Overdrive are the two I mentioned.  There are a few more also that don't increase channeling costs.  

[ScorpDK]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Yes, you are missing another.  A few in fact.   I named two in my earlier post above.  Killing Blow and Dispatch Overdrive are the two I mentioned.  There are a few more also that don't increase channeling costs.  

Oh, I meant mods that introduce a new mechanic. Sorry for the confusion.

[shadow0727]

1 hour ago, Thundervision said:

What keeps bothering me is, that Channeling uses frame's energy while frame's stats don't even affect it. What is a melee weapons? It's just a weapon, it doesn't decide what and how to channel. Our frames do this.

I mean, the logical way would be:

A highly efficient warframe channeling his energy through a melee weapon would result in very efficient channeling attacks.

if we also add Str (questionable, 'cause it's Power Strength, not just Strength):

A warframe with high Power Strength and, say, low Efficiency would deal powerful, but costly channeling hits.

This is a good idea. Basically, you choose between having a high str and hit hard but rarely, or high eff and hit frequently but not like a freight train, or a happy medium of the 2.

[H8RAID]

Perhaps I am in the minority but there's a dexterity and muscle memory obstacle to using channeling that I've never been able to overcome.  This is compounded by having played many hours without even having the channeling button mapped to anything...  Perhaps the new player experience now introduces channeling but when I started in early 2015 I don't recall there being any mention of it.  Personally, channeling is just a thing that's there and I don't hold the view that my play experience has suffered without use of it. 

My only real criticism of the current system is that it's negligible. Any change that would only result in improved efficiency or the opportunity to output more damage with melee weapons would be disappointing.  Frankly, anything short of what the OP is proposing relative to having channeling effect "the works" would be a missed opportunity to have the investment be meaningful IMHO.

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

1) First of all, I propose we make channeling a state the Warframe is in, rather than a simple boost to the weapon. Give the frame using  it a good sized boost to everything. Movement speed, bullet jump distance, attack speed, jump and double jump  height and distance, wall latch time, slam radius,  the works. This would make it useful at all times if not just for getting around,and actually help on Melee combat in ways other than raw damage. And I mean high, like 20-30%.

2) Next, make it so that the state constantly drains energy at 2.5 per second (or round down to 2) as a standard. Instead of every weapon having the same channeling bonus and efficiency, have them differ by weapon type. For instance, you could give swords a 2.5x multiplier with a 2.5 energy/sec cost, and give the Kogake a 2.0x multiplier with a 1.8 energy/sec cost, and the Scindo  a 3.0x multiplier with a 3.5 energy/sec cost, and so on and so forth. Maybe you can have weapons that specialize in channeling such as nunchaku or polearms or even fists. 

3) Remove the efficiency penalties from some of the channeling mods, and   buff some of them. 20% attack speed isn't that big of a deal to have to spend more energy to get it. 50% attack speed, though, that's something else. That's something I'd give a bit of energy for. You're already sacrificing a mod slot for it, no need to make us suffer while we're at it. In fact, some of these mods could be merged, since the energy being sacrificed for them is what should make them more powerful. I wouldn't mind giving up a mod slot for increasing both status and crit in one mod by channeling. Channeling mods have to be more powerful than the regular mods to compete with powers for usage. 

4) Channeled Blocking should add 3 to whatever energy/sec calculation you're using. It is rendering you completely invincible (from the front) and it should cost you, but not cost you so much you have no more  energy in less  than 2 seconds. 

1) Yes please!
That would make channeling more than just a flashy gimmick. It would also make you feel the equipping melee has some serious benefits over quickmelee (even if quickmelee strikes STILL are generally more fluid, sadly).

2) Considiering point #1, it makes WAY more sense that channeling drains energy over time INSTEAD of energy per hit. It's also been suggested in the past, and it's still a good suggestion.
However, if there would be different energydrains, doesn't that come across as a little unfair in regards to the #1 suggestion? If all weapons gain the same passives, why should the energydrain differ? (Unless they also get different passives that is)
They could have different damagemultipliers (to make some weapons more about channeling damage than others, of course), but I think the energydrain and passive benefits should remain the same across the board. Sure, there could be some small differences, but it should make sense (like reserved for "special prime bonus" weapon buffs and such).

3) No, remove the efficiency penalties from ALL channeling mods AND buff them to be better than their basic counterparts. After all, they take up a precious modslot AND consumes energy AND requires you to equip your melee weapon to be of any benefit (in contrast to the basic counterpart mods, which only take up a modslot).

Combining a few channeling mods sounds like an awesome idea too, btw.

4) Sounds good. But imo, it should only drain quicker during the moments you are actively blocking something (and the draincost should linger for like half a sec or so).

 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is the 'unique and cool concept' that doesn't really compete in practice... interesting thoughts! 

FINALLY you admit that channeling is lackluster! Thanks for finally admitting it...

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Channeling is one of those things in Warframe that gets immediately overlooked by everyone who isn't a new player that doesn't know any better.

A wild sweeping generalization appears! Hey Tenno. I'm a somewhat veteran player who really digs channeling. I looked into it for a while when I started playing, gave up on it for a bit, then came back to it. I think there are a few factors that scare players away from channeling:

• It consumes Warframe energy. People really like to spam powers and prefer to stack output modifiers over efficiency, and so having yet another item consuming energy without accounting for it within the loadout turns some players off.
• An all-or-nothing mentality. Some players I've talked to firmly believe that if they're going to build for a particular purpose, they need to exercise it as much as humanly possible. To be always channeling is not a very good idea and will quickly run you out energy, so people avoid it.
• Lack of efficacy. Many Tenno don't really see the difference in their channeled attacks from normal ones.
• Lack of knowledge. Channeling is one of the many things that Warframe doesn't have a tutorial for. There's no explanation to how it works, where it should be used, etc., and players are left to figure it out or ignore it. It's never an essential skill, so the latter is very easy to do.
• It's only available with melee equipped. If you primarily use guns and only quick-melee, you can't channel.

Now, that said, here's why I like channeling (these are my personal preferences and ideas, I am not touting them as bonafide facts):

• It makes melee more interesting and satisfying. We have many different melee categories and stances for each of them, but at the end of the day it's just pressing E a whole bunch. Channeling adds variety. Plus the energy effects and the sound a channeled kill makes is really satisfying.
• It makes a difference. An added 50% melee damage, based on my weapon's total modded damage total, for 5 energy? Sign me up! It ups my DPS pretty huge, and in most cases I can get way more damage out of channeling than out of any Warframe power at a fraction of the cost. If we slap on the Killing Blow mod, it more than doubles my damage output. It's not fiercely stronger than raw damage mods, but some of those big, shiny raw damage mods aren't readily available to players. Also, being able to channel and make sure this next attack will deal bonus damage is really helpful for me in clutch situations.
• I don't use it all the time. Channeling every single melee hit will run anyone out of energy all the time. I mod for channeled in some cases as opposed to raw damage with the full knowledge that my melee will be weaker than raw damage sometimes, and stronger than it at other times. It's about modding for what you need. If I can run a channeling build that still kills Lancers in 2 hits without channeling, I don't need to worry about my damage and can save my energy for taking out Heavies.
• It has its uses. It disintegrates bodies, making it good for stealth. It isn't suppressed by Nullifier fields. 
• I only use it sometimes. There are only certain builds I use that make Channeling setups really effective. They should be dedicated melee (or at least use it pretty regularly), and they usually need to have some kind energy restoration built into their kit, or at least be pretty efficient. Trinity is a great example. She's got energy to spare, but no mobility or CC. So I bring a Fragor Prime equipped with Killing Blow and Dispatch Overdrive. It cranks Trin's damage, she gets CC from the sweeping Impact procs of the Fragor and gives her the ability to chase down her next kill. Another is Wukong. When I'm not burning through Energy on Defy, I can crank his damage for free. Dispatch Overdrive also speeds up his Cloudwalker, letting me use the stun in more meaningful ways. On Chroma I'll just run Life Strike to match Rage. On Nezha I'll run DO for the fun of it. I'll even use channeling on Valkyr in Hysteria without running into issues, thanks to Rage.

Channeling is not perfect, and there are still some improvements that can be made (I think mostly by adding additional mods that make the mechanic worthwhile). Channeling struggles in terms of balance: how can devs make it a rewarding experience without making it so strong that players would think they're missing out by not channeling? Right now though, I think it's pretty darn effective if you have the right setup and know what you're doing. The best thing for it is for players to learn more about it.

[Plushy]

This topic gives me hope :D

[Trichouette]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is the 'unique and cool concept' that doesn't really compete in practice... interesting thoughts! 

Like... a lot of things in this game ?

"Wow chroma can breath fire electricity ice and poison, that's useless but damn cool"

"Wow I can charge my melee attack for a super powerful swing... or deal more damage by smashing E like crazy"