Do people believe Universal Vacuum will encourage players to use pets?

[saltygr33n]

The only reason I don't use pets, is because they tend to wander or stay in places I'm currently not close by when I'm rushing, and then get downed.

Lets just say, I use carrier because "Increase ammunition capacity and converts ammo pickups into ammo for equipped weapons after a short delay", that's about it. I don't even like having my sentinel attack, and I don't use pets enough to know much about them, other than, I wasn't too impressed, even though I've used and forma'd one or two pets; great damage dealers, but just not what  I'm looking for.

In other words, if pets have some unique perks that interests me, I'd go for it.

Edited May 25, 2017 by saltygr33n

[Arkvold]

7 hours ago, Zeclem said:

this entire reply is flat out stupid.

1-you can still gather those resources. in a game thats based on mobility, you already would walk over a vast majority of loots you'd gather anyway. and quite a good amount of ppl in this game already stopped needing a very good part of the resources in the game.

2-im sorry but what? even with the lowest hp frame kavats will be tankier than sentinels. thats not an "advantage" for a sentinel. its the opposite. and being able to revive them is a MASSIVE durability boost so stop making stuff up.

3-aoes are everywhere in game. also, kavats dont draw that much fire if their owner is alive. 

4-medi-ray is useless with how slow it heals. shield charger is useless cus shields are useless. primed regen? yeah kavats dont need to waste a mod slot, endo and forma on being reviveable and they can do it infinitely. sacrifice is useless cus your sentinel WILL die before it resses you. ammo case is a niche mod, not every weapon has a crap ammo economy. and ammo pads exist. having seperate weapons isnt exactly useful since it will cost you even more resources of forma and more mods and more endo to lvl those mods. and most of those weapons are useless so dont pretend it gives customization.

>talks about maintenance

>shows seperate guns that need seperate modding as an advantage.

lol. kavats "maintenance" is nothing more than a 25k credits every week. thats absolutely nothing.

5-my adarza only gets stuck between waves. when there are things to kill around, shes almost never stuck. and between waves its still pretty rare. idk why forums are always claiming it like kavats spend %85 of the mission stuck in terrain and the rest staring at a wall. it just doesnt happen to me or anybody i know.

you listed all the "perks" of sentinels. lemme list adarza kavats.

1-aoe armor shred that procs fairly often.

2-actual durability.

3-aoe attacks that do massive dmg(every attack of a kavat is an aoe with the mod)

4-can be revived

5-an aoe stun that isnt exactly common but opens enemies to finishers

6-%60 flat crit chance to your entire squad and their pets.

entirety of sentinels benefits cant even compare to the last one if youre playing for longer than a month. vacuum is good, but its severely overrated cus playerbase is just lazy and wants every piece of loot that they know they wont make any use of. and since vastly huge percent of the people doesnt bother doing stuff that are above lvl 40, they dont see the value that crit chance brings and just go with vacuum. i can understand that, but what i wont understand is making claims such as these in the reply ive quoted.

Oooh, he begins with an insult right off the bat, this should be good for a laugh.

Now that that's out of the way, let me tear this post apart point by point.

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1-you can still gather those resources. in a game thats based on mobility, you already would walk over a vast majority of loots you'd gather anyway. and quite a good amount of ppl in this game already stopped needing a very good part of the resources in the game.

And yet people still complain about not having enough polymer bundles for the Razorback Armada event.  People complain about not having enough Oxium for the Grattler or Vauban Prime's Chassis.  People complain about the Alloy Plates for the Kavat Incubator Upgrade.  And I constantly see people with "LF Orokin Cell farm" or "LF Neural Sensor farm" on recruiting chat.

Just because you might not need most of the resources that drops doesn't mean that everyone else is the same way.  Your experience with Warframe is not universal.  Some people out there do, or I wouldn't constantly be seeing these complaints occurring and parties forming.  Maybe, before making blanket statements about segments of the playerbase, you should actually look at the the playerbase first, hmm?  You might not need resources much anymore, I might not need resources much anymore, but the constant glut of credit and resource farms on recruiting chat is indicator enough that you and I are in the minority in that regard.

Mobility is one of the chief reasons to argue in favor of universal vacuum.  This game is fast-paced, and DE has consistently made decisions that have increased the pace of the game (Parkour 2.0, the existence of mobility mods, Volt being a starter Warframe with an ability literally called Speed).  Rather than having to take time to walk over loot, or pass up loot that isn't on your direct path of movement, you can have it all and not have to worry about it.  Instead of grabbing loot and risking falling behind the rest of your team, you can worry about completing objectives, dealing with tactical situations, and keeping up with (or setting the pace for) your team.  Which is a good thing - these are the things you're supposed to be focusing on, not scrabbling for loot!

If it dropped, then you or your team earned the right to have it.  No game should make getting what you've earned a difficulty.

 

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2-im sorry but what?

even with the lowest hp frame kavats will be tankier than sentinels. (emphasis mine) thats not an "advantage" for a sentinel. its the opposite. and being able to revive them is a MASSIVE durability boost so stop making stuff up.

Do the math before you accuse me of lying, chuckles.  Especially when you're lying through your teeth right here.

Carrier Prime with R10 Enhanced Vitality, Calculated Redirection, Metal Fiber = 1280 Health, 375 Shields, 315 Armor
R1 Smeeta Kavat with R10 Link Health, Link Shields, Link Armor w/base R10 Mirage = 446 Health, 324 Shields, 121.5 Armor
R10 Smeeta Kavat with R10 Link Health, Link Shields, Link Armor w/base R10 Mirage = 696 Health, 444 Shields, 121.5 Armor

I could've compared them using an R1 Mirage, but I figured this would be evidence enough.  You want to try and be a pedant with me?  Be right, first.

Furthermore, even in the best-case scenario, where you're pitting a Sahasa or Huras Kubrow alongside something tanky that has maximized durability, there's still one crucial fact that you're forgetting about when it comes to Sentinels.

Sentinels are never shot at deliberately by enemies.  Stray shots can hit a Sentinel.  AoEs can hit a Sentinel, but enemies do not shoot at them deliberately.  So long as you do not face-tank bombard rockets or napalm blasts unnecessarily, or stand in burn patches from Hyekka Masters or go nap in Sapping Osprey fields, your Sentinel will be fine.

Your Kubrow or Kavat, on the other hand, is not only subject to being directly fired upon, but enemies prioritize them just as much as they prioritize you. 

The only point you've made in favor of non-Sentinel durability is the ability to revive Kubrows and Kavats.  But consider this fact - if it's deadly enough out in the field to kill your animal companion, who has more health, shields, and armor than you thanks to the Link mods, it's probably deadly enough to kill you even faster.  Sure, you can revive them, but that means exposing yourself to whatever killed them in the first place, and standing there for up to five seconds to pick them up.

Slap Regen on a Sentinel, and it'll take care of itself for you.  Put Primed Regen on the Sentinel, and it'll even do so up to three times.  Also, sentinels are totally immune to all forms of CC, unlike animal companions that can be knocked down, lit on fire, frozen, or electrocuted just like a player.

 

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>talks about maintenance

>shows seperate guns that need seperate modding as an advantage.

lol. kavats "maintenance" is nothing more than a 25k credits every week. thats absolutely nothing.

Still 25k credits a week that the Sentinel user ain't spending.  Might cost you some money to mod a weapon for your sentinel, but it's something you only ever need to do once per weapon, not an ongoing cost.  Moreover, every credit spent improving your sentinel weaponry just makes your sentinel that much better.  It ain't maintenance if there's improvement going on.

You're right though, having a separately moddable weapon isn't an advantage.  It's several advantages.

1. You can set up your Sentinel weapon to have non-IPS stats.  This means you can get lovely things like corrosive procs or viral procs from a Sentinel weapon.  Can't do that with an animal companion.
2. You don't have to waste mod slots on your companion itself on mods like Bite and Maul.  You can put them on the weapon instead.  You gonna tell me that freeing up a mod slot on your companion (there would be two, but the other's taken up by the sentinel's targeting mod), and then having eight extra mod slots and up to sixty mod cap devoted entirely to your companion's weapon isn't an advantage?
3. All sentinel weapons are ranged.  Meaning that if you're in cover, your Sentinel doesn't have to expose itself to enemy fire and melee attacks in order to shoot, unless you do.
4. Sentinels can be forced to not attack on any 'frame by unequipping their weapon, or their weapon targeting mod if you're worried about stealth.  Alternatively, put a Hush, Suppress, or Silent Battery mod on their weapon, or if you're using Helios, use Deconstructor - it's already silent because it's a ranged melee attack.  Can't stop animal companions from attacking unless you have a 'frame capable of invisibility.

Again, you've utterly failed to research the facts before you make claims.

 

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you listed all the "perks" of sentinels. lemme list adarza kavats.

1-aoe armor shred that procs fairly often.

2-actual durability.

3-aoe attacks that do massive dmg(every attack of a kavat is an aoe with the mod)

4-can be revived

5-an aoe stun that isnt exactly common but opens enemies to finishers

6-%60 flat crit chance to your entire squad and their pets.

I listed some of the perks of sentinels.  I'm also going to scratch out points 2 and 4 because we've already discussed that at length.

Armor removal is good, and the crit bonus is good.  These are important functions that the kavat can do that Sentinels cannot... although a Sentinel could be modded for Corrosive damage to remove armor, and the Helios's Detect Vulnerability mod can create weak points which you can then shoot for hefty damage.  Not quite as effective, arguably, but that's kinda asking a Sentinel to be something it isn't.

The kavat's own attacks aren't as great as you make them out to be - your Adarza Kavat deals 80 base slash damage with a 20% crit chance and a 7.5% status chance.  With maxed out Maul and Bite, that's 334 slash damage and an 86.6% crit chance.  You can't mod for status because it's a kavat and there's no animal companion status chance mod, even if you had the mod space to put it in.

Now let's look at Sentinel weaponry.

The Vulklok is 85 electric damage at base, with a 35% crit chance and 25% status chance.  With just a maxed Serration and maxed Split Chamber, that already jumps to 418.4 electric damage, beating the Kavat handily.  Throw on Point Strike and that's 82% critical chance, comparable to the Kavat.  You can further increase that crit chance with corrupt mods, like critical Delay.  And this is just three weapon mods, that cost the Sentinel itself zero mod capacity and mod slots, versus the two being eaten up on your Kavat.

I could discuss Deconstructor Prime or Sweeper Prime, but I don't want to belabor my point.

Point being, there's not a lot that animal companions can do that Sentinels can't do as well or better.  The numbers don't lie.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Arkvold

[Music4Therapy]

16 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Oooh, he begins with an insult right off the bat, this should be good for a laugh.

Now that that's out of the way, let me tear this post apart point by point.

 

 

And yet people still complain about not having enough polymer bundles for the Razorback Armada event.  People complain about not having enough Oxium for the Grattler.  People complain about the Alloy Plates for the Kavat Incubator Upgrade.  And I constantly see people with "LF Orokin Cell farm" or "LF Neural Sensor farm" on recruiting chat.

Just because you might not need most of the resources that drops doesn't mean that everyone else is the same way.  Your experience with Warframe is not universal.  Some people out there do, or I wouldn't constantly be seeing these complaints occurring and parties forming.  Maybe, before making blanket statements about the entirety of the playerbase, you should actually look at the entirety of the playerbase first, hmm?

Mobility is one of the chief reasons to argue in favor of universal vacuum.  Rather than having to take time to walk over look, or pass up loot that isn't on your direct path of movement, you can have it all.  Which is a good thing - if it dropped, then you or your team earned the right to have it.  No game should make getting what you've earned a difficulty.

 

 

While I agree with you, please avoid Vacuum specific talk here. There are plenty of threads for that and I don't want to risk this one being derailed. My hope is that by sticking to the point we'll be able to have all the problems and solutions together in plain, easy to read format without a bunch of bs to search through. Focusing on the pros and cons of Sentinel vs Pets assuming they both have access to Vacuum and all its benefits is the goal here.

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Do the math before you accuse me of lying, chuckles.  Especially when you're lying through your teeth right here.

Carrier Prime with R10 Enhanced Vitality, Calculated Redirection, Metal Fiber = 1280 Health, 375 Shields, 315 Armor
R1 Smeeta Kavat with R10 Link Health, Link Shields, Link Armor w/base R10 Mirage = 446 Health, 324 Shields, 121.5 Armor
R10 Smeeta Kavat with R10 Link Health, Link Shields, Link Armor w/base R10 Mirage = 696 Health, 444 Shields, 121.5 Armor

I could've compared them using an R1 Mirage, but I figured this would be evidence enough.  You want to try and be a pedant with me?  Be right, first.

Furthermore, even in the best-case scenario, where you're pitting a Sahasa or Huras Kubrow alongside something tanky that has maximized durability, there's still one crucial fact that you're forgetting about when it comes to Sentinels.

Sentinels are never shot at deliberately by enemies.  Stray shots can hit a Sentinel.  AoEs can hit a Sentinel, but enemies do not shoot at them deliberately.  So long as you do not face-tank bombard rockets or napalm blasts unnecessarily, or stand in burn patches from Hyekka Masters or go nap in Sapping Osprey fields, your Sentinel will be fine.

Your Kubrow or Kavat, on the other hand, is not only subject to being directly fired upon, but enemies prioritize them just as much as they prioritize you. 

The only point you've made in favor of non-Sentinel durability is the ability to revive Kubrows and Kavats.  But consider this fact - if it's deadly enough out in the field to kill your animal companion, who has more health, shields, and armor than you thanks to the Link mods, it's probably deadly enough to kill you even faster.  Sure, you can revive them, but that means exposing yourself to whatever killed them in the first place, and standing there for up to five seconds to pick them up.

Slap Regen on a Sentinel, and it'll take care of itself for you.  Put Primed Regen on the Sentinel, and it'll even do so up to three times.  Also, sentinels are totally immune to all forms of CC, unlike animal companions that can be knocked down, lit on fire, frozen, or electrocuted just like a player.

 

 

 

 

And I agree with you here. One thing I'd like to point out, 

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The only point you've made in favor of non-Sentinel durability is the ability to revive Kubrows and Kavats.  But consider this fact - if it's deadly enough out in the field to kill your animal companion, who has more health, shields, and armor than you thanks to the Link mods, it's probably deadly enough to kill you even faster.  Sure, you can revive them, but that means exposing yourself to whatever killed them in the first place, and standing there for up to five seconds to pick them up.

To answer this point, pets have the potential to have absurdly long bleedout timers (Loyal Companion + Medi-Pet Kit + Oberon's Renewal gets my pet to 4 minute bleedout timers, personally.) And on top of that, picking up 1 single health orb in the span of time instantly revives the pet. Very nice when rolling with a frame that increases drop rates or someone with a Sahasa Kubrow. Keeping the Kubrows/Kavats alive provided they had better AI would be a non-issue in the vast majority of the content this game has to offer, sucks that they get themselves glitched out so often though.

During the Ambulas Event a bit ago, we went for around 450 points and my pet Kubrow was stuck in a wall since around wave ~25, rendering him useless for a large part of our 80 wave game. Which makes me wonder, I've offered some solutions to the problem in the OP, how do you feel would be the best way to give someone an incentive to use Kubrows/Kavats over Sentinels assuming Vacuum was Universal? I don't want DE to believe that we the players think that Universal Vacuum alone would be enough to make Pets a viable alternative to Sentinels for those looking for get the most out of their load outs.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Tesseract7777]

4 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

Yes, just like bullet jumps are also just something unnecessary that some people think are absolutely needed, so let's remove our "universal bulletjumps" and force players to equip those handy bullet jump mods to be allowed to perform them.

But hey, wanting to have bullet jumps without mods is just wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to remove it entirely, the amount of drops needs to change drastically. I'm not spending 90% of the mission just to try and feed my weapon with ammo.

What? Are you serious mate? That isn't even close to equivalent. Bullet jump is a part of movement. Vacuum is an optional part of the game that some people feel they NEED. And you are really showing a strong, living example of my point. Those who are super into vacuum talk as if it is the absolute most needed, game breaking mod, that they MUST have it. That is is absolutely essential -- you even tried to claim it is as important as bullet jumping! That doesn't even make sense. 

Sentinels have way more utility than kubrows and kavats, but they don't survive nearly as well. You think Doges are useless without vacuum? Ask a truly serious endurance player if they would go without their Huras -- and we all know Shade doesn't do what Huras does even a fraction as well. 

I never use Vacuum, even after the change, I don't put it on my Helios. I sometimes use ammo inefficient weapons and I don't have trouble keeping up my ammo or getting drops. You don't need vacuum, you want it. You don't have to have it, it just makes your life EASIER. And if you want ammo, there are so many other ways besides vacuum making it lazily easy for you to get drops without looking, like ammo mutation mods and auras, and the modified Carrier that has precepts that help you keep your ammo up. And can still run vacuum too. 

I know vacuum will never be removed from the game, that was hyperbole, but it is not an essential mod. It is a convenience mod. It is amazing how vacuum die hards are so obsessed with claiming it is absolutely essential, when so many people play just fine without it. 

It's really simple. You can't have both. Sentinels give way more utility, kubrows and kavats survive way better, even scaling with your warframes stats, and can be revived. Take your pick. It's supposed to be a strategic choice. 

 

[MobyTheDuck]

Vacuum/Item Magnet should be innate to the player.

If I had a bigger item pickup radius I would definitely

Spoiler

keep using Carrier because of this innate ammo mutation.

 

[Arkvold]

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

While I agree with you, please avoid Vacuum specific talk here. There are plenty of threads for that and I don't want to risk this one being derailed. My hope is that by sticking to the point we'll be able to have all the problems and solutions together in plain, easy to read format without a bunch of bs to search through. Focusing on the pros and cons of Sentinel vs Pets assuming they both have access to Vacuum and all its benefits is the goal here.

Fair enough, but if he's going to argue that walking over your loot is fine, when the only viable alternative is Vacuum, I kinda have to discuss Vacuum to some extent.

 

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

And I agree with you here. One thing I'd like to point out, 

To answer this point, pets have absurdly long bleedout timers (Loyal Companion + Medi-Pet Kit + Oberon's Renewal gets my pet to 4 minute bleedout timers, personally.) And on top of that, picking up 1 single health orb in the span of time instantly revives the pet. Very nice when rolling with a frame that increases drop rates or someone with a Sahasa Kubrow. Keeping the Kubrows/Kavats alive provided they had better AI would be a non-issue in the vast majority of the content this game has to offer, sucks that they get themselves glitched out so often though.

Wait, picking up health orbs while your pet's down revives your pet?  When did this become a thing?  No seriously, I'd like to know, because that might just be an excuse to try my Helminth Charger or Sahasa alongside my Despoil-build Nekros.

That said, I don't find modding animal companions for bleedout timer to be very useful.  There's still the fact that you have to physically revive the pet, which can take up to five seconds of just standing there, vulnerable, while whatever killed your pet attacks you unless you take it out beforehand.  Five seconds is a very long time to stand still.  If they had better AI and knew to take cover when their shields dropped or seek out healing and cover when their health gets low instead of attacking relentlessly, I would appreciate them so much more.

 

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

During the Ambulas Event a bit ago, we went for around 450 points and my pet Kubrow was stuck in a wall since around wave ~25, rendering him useless for a large part of our 80 wave game.

This happened to me, too.  I brought my Smeeta Kavat for the armor removal.  We went to wave 50, my kavat jumped on a wall and then got stuck there on wave 8, then proceeded to be useless for the rest of the match.  He eventually died, and none of us could revive him because his corpse was stuck in the air, unable to be reached.  You had one job, Luciano.  One job.

 

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how do you feel would be the best way to give someone an incentive to use Kubrows/Kavats over Sentinels assuming Vacuum was Universal? I don't want DE to believe that we the players think that Universal Vacuum alone would be enough to make Pets a viable alternative to Sentinels for those looking for get the most out of their load outs.

First, fix their AI and movement behavior.  Make sure that bleeding-out animal companions drop to the nearest walkable ground in the direction of their master when downed.  Make sure they do not get stuck and become unresponsive.  Make them smarter about monitoring their health and seeking cover and healing when in danger.  Use audio feedback - have the animal companions make plaintive noises that are plainly audible above the din of combat when they're in trouble, to alert their master that their companion needs to be protected or cared for.

Second, companion weapons.  One of the biggest basic advantages of a Sentinel is the fact that its weaponry is separately moddable from the rest of the companion.  This offers you all the flexibility of modding a weapon, such as modding for crit or status or elemental damage and making use of the existing weaponry mods out there.  Mods like Bite and Maul can dissolve into Endo or something.

Third, get rid of the stupid DNA degradation.  It's the first and most obvious detriment to owning an animal companion from the moment you complete Howl of the Kubrow.  A new player looks at the companion that they have to spend money weekly to keep alive, versus the companion that's just always functioning at full strength, and they're going to say "hell with the dog, I need my credits!"  That's how I felt for a long time, and keep in mind - this was before Taxon was a thing. I had to pay 100k on the market for the BP and then further pay the crafting cost for my first sentinel, and that still seemed like a better investment than constantly paying to keep my dog from turning to goo.  Now Taxon's given out to newbies without even a quest.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

It's really simple. You can't have both. Sentinels give way more utility, kubrows and kavats survive way better, even scaling with your warframes stats, and can be revived. Take your pick. It's supposed to be a strategic choice. 

 

This is what people don't understand. It's intentional. It's suppose to be a choice. It's why they made it into a mod instead of just buffing the range of universal vacuum. 

You ever wonder why certain things, like void traces, aren't sucked up with vacuum? Because the devs actually want players to have to break their focus and collect things. That's why they created those little corpus spider drones too. 

I don't get the "we're space ninjas, we shouldn't have to pick up loot" argument either. Im sure the devs actually want players to use their mobility to pick up items on the fly while they dash through levels. The parkour is actually an argument against the necessity of vacuum. Gathering loot would be a problem if the characters weren't fast and athletic.

 

[Music4Therapy]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is what people don't understand. It's intentional. It's suppose to be a choice. It's why they made it into a mod instead of just buffing the range of universal vacuum. 

You ever wonder why certain things, like void traces, aren't sucked up with vacuum? Because the devs actually want players to have to break their focus and collect things. That's why they created those little corpus spider drones too. 

I don't get the "we're space ninjas, we shouldn't have to pick up loot" argument either. Im sure the devs actually want players to use their mobility to pick up items on the fly while they dash through levels. The parkour is actually an argument against the necessity of vacuum. Gathering loot would be a problem if the characters weren't fast and athletic.

 

Please keep these Vacuum arguments outside of the thread. Let's focus specifically on the question asked and if the answer is no, what should be changed to make pets a viable alternative to sentinels to those looking to get the most out of their loadouts.

Otherwise we'll never be able to have a productive conversation.

[FireSegment]

first, half of u post is unreadable without ctrl+a in dark theme, pls change the format.

second, if you don't want the Vaccum outbreak of reply, then honestly just use it as an argument in the post and not in the title, ppl would unavoidably assume u focus on the Vaccum with that title even after read u post.

third, as i understand, you argument is that even with universal vaccum, pet would still ... not being used as much as sentinels. That i totally agree, because it basically ... change nothing for the sentinel user, at the same time dont add anything to the pet overall, so yeah ... that's out of the way. 

Now, to your suggestion on improvement.

Better AI is something that we asked DE ever since the very beginning, but it's more of the technical thing and UI things (the controllers are run out of button for pets it seem, that's why we still dont have shortcut for emotes). So the "/retrive" someone suggested are last resort, the same as "/unstuck", and do not improve the experience of pet user overall.

Auras mods on pet .... really? do u realize how broken this would be if it used auras like CP or Stand United? Unless you are going to invent a whole bunch of new aura that exclusive to pet alone, this wont fly. Also, i think that u missed the point with the forma. I'm happily invest 4-5 forma to a pet if the return effect are satify for me ( i do have 2 kavat and 1 helminth charger that can equip maxed Maul and Bite) but i ended up still using Carrier for the Ammo Case. Pets are supposed to be costly to invest by design, lower it could encourage some to try it out, but it would stop at "try it out" then they go back to sentinels.

 

[Jeoxz]

Pets are more late game inclined as it is right now. While AI can be clunky they already do much more than sentinels, if you don't need loot for a specific mission, take a pet (My Huras has never failed me, the invisibility is much better than shade, and that's it, discussion over). If you are farming however, vacuum/sentinel is mandatory, except for kuva because cat can double the drops and niches are niches

[Demoonic]

Literally just give all warframes passive 12m vacuum. I cannot see any downsides to this besides the fact that it's a simple change, and from what I gather DE doesn't want to do that for.....reasons...

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Demoonic

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is what people don't understand. It's intentional. It's suppose to be a choice. It's why they made it into a mod instead of just buffing the range of universal vacuum. 

You ever wonder why certain things, like void traces, aren't sucked up with vacuum? Because the devs actually want players to have to break their focus and collect things. That's why they created those little corpus spider drones too. 

I don't get the "we're space ninjas, we shouldn't have to pick up loot" argument either. Im sure the devs actually want players to use their mobility to pick up items on the fly while they dash through levels. The parkour is actually an argument against the necessity of vacuum. Gathering loot would be a problem if the characters weren't fast and athletic.

 

Okay you are utterly wrong on the first part.

Void traces and ayatan starts are not vacuumable because vacuum can move them to a place where they are unreachable by players who dont have it. They even stated this in the patch notes.

 

Second, how do you think we should dash throught corpus or infested maps when loot falls behind boxes, under stairs and other zones where you have to stop the parkour tricks to pick them up. Unless we talk about open space maps where i can freely jump around like a madman, parkour is not an argument against vacuum even better parkour shows us that we need vacuum so our movement can stay fluid.

[Music4Therapy]

34 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Okay you are utterly wrong on the first part.

Void traces and ayatan starts are not vacuumable because vacuum can move them to a place where they are unreachable by players who dont have it. They even stated this in the patch notes.

 

Second, how do you think we should dash throught corpus or infested maps when loot falls behind boxes, under stairs and other zones where you have to stop the parkour tricks to pick them up. Unless we talk about open space maps where i can freely jump around like a madman, parkour is not an argument against vacuum even better parkour shows us that we need vacuum so our movement can stay fluid.

Why do people insist on talking about Vacuum? Stop. It's in the OP after PLEASE READ in BOLD LETTERS

Learn to read. Jesus. Start your own thread instead of hijacking mine, there are thousands of threads and many youtube videos about the fkn topic you want to talk about. Go. Somewhere. Else.

None of what you said applies whatsoever to the question I am asking. There is some staff member going through all the threads and they are going to come across this thread and see "oh god another vacuum thread" because all the crap some people are spewing. Stay on topic.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Music4Therapy]

2 hours ago, FireSegment said:

Now, to your suggestion on improvement.

Better AI is something that we asked DE ever since the very beginning, but it's more of the technical thing and UI things (the controllers are run out of button for pets it seem, that's why we still dont have shortcut for emotes). So the "/retrive" someone suggested are last resort, the same as "/unstuck", and do not improve the experience of pet user overall.

Auras mods on pet .... really? do u realize how broken this would be if it used auras like CP or Stand United? Unless you are going to invent a whole bunch of new aura that exclusive to pet alone, this wont fly. Also, i think that u missed the point with the forma. I'm happily invest 4-5 forma to a pet if the return effect are satify for me ( i do have 2 kavat and 1 helminth charger that can equip maxed Maul and Bite) but i ended up still using Carrier for the Ammo Case. Pets are supposed to be costly to invest by design, lower it could encourage some to try it out, but it would stop at "try it out" then they go back to sentinels.

 

1) Regarding the /unstuck command not improving overall experience, I would argue the opposite. I do many endless runs, it's my niche as a player. My Sahasa Kubrow is my go to just because I like the utility it provides and can live without Vacuum. That said, I'll use a recent example. A couple clan mates and I went to Wave 80 in the Ambulas Event and went on to score around ~450 points, unfortunately my pet was stuck in a wall for about 55 of those waves. An /unstuck command would have been amazing in that situation and the many times I've been in that situation.

2) Regarding the aura mods for pets, I wanted to elaborate but I know people struggle with walls of texts so tried to keep the OP as TL;DR as possible. Yes, the aura mods themselves would be pet specific. You wouldn't be able to run 8x Steel Charge and whatnot, they'd be pet exclusive auras and depending on the design of said auras you can make it to where the aura's bonus only applied to the pet and owner or to the whole squad, whichever was the more balanced approach. In the OP, I mentioned that there should be some statistical, passive increase to the owner's stats in the form of an aura pending on the nature of the mod due to the bond between the pet and owner. Maybe it'd be enough to equal the playing field between them and Sentinels.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[freeformline]

In my case, Vacuum really is the main thing keeping me from using my pets. After that, it's Guardian, but that's only really important on a few of my builds, and my most played builds would overwhelmingly prefer kavat buffs or canine company. Back when I was running a lot of long survivals in the old void, I was mostly using my Huras kubrow since it survived better than sentinels, but I switched back to sentinels as soon as I stopped doing that simply because I find running without Vacuum less fun than running with it.

When Vacuum was spread to all sentinels, I mostly abandoned my Carrier Prime, only taking it along when I was planning to use an unusually ammo-hungry weapon rather than my melee or when I expected to be up against a lot of ambient damage that would kill my other sentinels too quickly. Nowadays I mostly use Helios Prime and Diriga, so I really do believe that universalizing Vacuum to all companions or warframes would lead to me using my pets more.

I suppose it is worth mentioning that, if Vacuum were taken out of the equation, I would prefer pets over sentinels for a few reasons. The first is that they tend to survive longer, especially since I favor melee-heavy play that works well with Pack Leader. The only thing I hate more than running without Vacuum is running without Animal Instincts, so survivability is very important to me. The second reason is that I like animals, so I enjoy having pets with me in the mission so long as they don't actively interfere with what I am doing. The third main reason I would prefer pets is because their abilities are more desirable to me: Huras kubrows have a much better stealth effect than Shade, and kavats have a number of excellent combat and farming buffs that sentinels don't really match. Other than Vacuum, I really only use sentinels for Helios scans, Diriga stuns (which are fun to look at but really unnecessary to my combat pattern), and, occasionally, Guardian or Ammo Case.

Apart from lacking Vacuum, the only real problem I have with pets in-mission is their AI messing with my stealth and finisher-based builds and their erratic movements making it harder to land headshots on enemies that react to them.

Edited May 25, 2017 by freeformline
Added some more detail.

[Fallen_Echo]

35 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Why do people insist on talking about Vacuum? Stop. It's in the OP after PLEASE READ in BOLD LETTERS

Learn to read. Jesus. Start your own thread instead of hijacking mine, there are thousands of threads and many youtube videos about the fkn topic you want to talk about. Go. Somewhere. Else.

None of what you said applies whatsoever to the question I am asking. There is some staff member going through all the threads and they are going to come across this thread and see "oh god another vacuum thread" because all the crap some people are spewing. Stay on topic.

I strongly ask you to change the title then. I skipped the entire first part of this discussion and joined to see the incoming arguments. If someone starts to talk about vacuum we gonna reply to it its that simple.

But what you try to achieve here is already failed as the 3 main points why sentinels are much better then pets are:

1. Vacuum
2. Survivability
3. Utility

HAving universal vacuum on everything would surely spread out the avaible companions list, but they still need to be worked on.

 

[SharkPot]

Do you love AI of this game??

If yes go pets, else go sentinels.

Do you like something??

If yes use it, else don't use it.

That would be the short version of my answer.

[Tyrian3k]

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What? Are you serious mate? That isn't even close to equivalent. Bullet jump is a part of movement. Vacuum is an optional part of the game that some people feel they NEED. And you are really showing a strong, living example of my point. Those who are super into vacuum talk as if it is the absolute most needed, game breaking mod, that they MUST have it. That is is absolutely essential -- you even tried to claim it is as important as bullet jumping! That doesn't even make sense. 

Bullet jumping isn't essential either, so let's make it exclusive to a mod. You can get around without it just fine, it's just less convenient, just like it is less convenient not to have vacuum. There's some optional stuff you can't reach without it? Just some resources you miss, just like with vacuum. You're slower at getting around? Just like you're slower at moving around without bullet jumping.

If bullet jumps are essential because they are part of movement, then vacuum is essential as a part of looting. Or are you saying that looting isn't essential? Oh, vacuum is an optional part of looting? Well, bullet jumps are an optional part of movement, so lets have thsm be mods.

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Sentinels have way more utility than kubrows and kavats, but they don't survive nearly as well. You think Doges are useless without vacuum? Ask a truly serious endurance player if they would go without their Huras -- and we all know Shade doesn't do what Huras does even a fraction as well. 

I would expect the answer to be Naramon.

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I never use Vacuum, even after the change, I don't put it on my Helios. I sometimes use ammo inefficient weapons and I don't have trouble keeping up my ammo or getting drops. You don't need vacuum, you want it. You don't have to have it, it just makes your life EASIER. And if you want ammo, there are so many other ways besides vacuum making it lazily easy for you to get drops without looking, like ammo mutation mods and auras, and the modified Carrier that has precepts that help you keep your ammo up. And can still run vacuum too.

And why would I want to "look at the loot" as you propose? Looking at loot is fine in games where said loot has stats like in Diablo or Borderlands, but in Warframe, that is about as fun as watching paint dry.

And what is wrong about wanting it to be easier to gather loot?

5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I know vacuum will never be removed from the game, that was hyperbole, but it is not an essential mod. It is a convenience mod. It is amazing how vacuum die hards are so obsessed with claiming it is absolutely essential, when so many people play just fine without it. 

Yes, so many people... Strange how I never encounter those many people in public matches. All I see are sentinels, more sentinels and even more sentinels. Must be all the solo players who use kitties and puppies.

 

4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The parkour is actually an argument against the necessity of vacuum. Gathering loot would be a problem if the characters weren't fast and athletic.

Except you can't gather loot without vacuum while using any of your amazingly fast parkour moves, since you'd be whizzing through the air while missing all the loot on the ground. So, no matter how fast we can fly through ths levels, we still have to walk to get loot.

[Music4Therapy]

14 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

Bullet jumping isn't essential either, so let's make it exclusive to a mod. You can get around without it just fine, it's just less convenient, just like it is less convenient not to have vacuum. There's some optional stuff you can't reach without it? Just some resources you miss, just like with vacuum. You're slower at getting around? Just like you're slower at moving around without bullet jumping.

If bullet jumps are essential because they are part of movement, then vacuum is essential as a part of looting. Or are you saying that looting isn't essential? Oh, vacuum is an optional part of looting? Well, bullet jumps are an optional part of movement, so lets have thsm be mods.

I would expect the answer to be Naramon.

And why would I want to "look at the loot" as you propose? Looking at loot is fine in games where said loot has stats like in Diablo or Borderlands, but in Warframe, that is about as fun as watching paint dry.

And what is wrong about wanting it to be easier to gather loot?

Yes, so many people... Strange how I never encounter those many people in public matches. All I see are sentinels, more sentinels and even more sentinels. Must be all the solo players who use kitties and puppies.

 

Except you can't gather loot without vacuum while using any of your amazingly fast parkour moves, since you'd be whizzing through the air while missing all the loot on the ground. So, no matter how fast we can fly through ths levels, we still have to walk to get loot.

 

Dude, read the OP.

 

Quote

**PLEASE READ** - We are specifically speaking about Sentinels and Pets if Vacuum was taken out of the equation. I am trying to have an intelligent conversation about Sentinels vs Pets assuming both have Vacuum. Please do not turn this into a "omg Vacuum es #1" thread as many players are making it out to be.

 

Yet you and others have this overwhelming desire to talk about Vacuum. Again, the people of the forums prove they can't handle sticking to the point of conversation and continue to lose their minds when the word Vacuum is mentioned. Many a paragraph will be written in vein.

 

Example intelligent answers:

"Yes! I would love to use a pet if Vacuum was Universal!"

"No! Pets have terrible AI and I wouldn't use them even if Vacuum was universal!"

"No! Sentinels have better utility!"

"Yes! Pets are cool and I wouldn't feel so bad about using one if I didn't have to give up Vacuum!"

"No! Pets are too glitchy! I recommend *insert suggestion here*"

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[LandsHeer]

Same here, would love to play with my pets, but I really really hate it when nobody pics stuff up for me :P Its so annoying to walk over every loot on the ground. Thats why they are all in stasis. And only play with Carrier. If the Pets would have a better AI and actually help + bring me my loot, then I would play with them a lot more

[failedtodiet]

How is this not a thing yet ?

i'll definitely use pets, vacuum or not.

[Tyrian3k]

1 hour ago, Music4Therapy said:

Yet you and others have this overwhelming desire to talk about Vacuum. Again, the people of the forums prove they can't handle sticking to the point of conversation and continue to lose their minds when the word Vacuum is mentioned. Many a paragraph will be written in vein.

You make a topic called "Do people believe universal vacuum will encourage players to use pets", start your OP off with this:

23 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Because here is the reality of the situation.

If the universal vacuum is weaker than the Sentinel version, people will just continue to use Sentinels. If it's just as good or better, it'll just open up another mod slot for our sentinels because as it stands they largely outperform pets.

Here is a summary of the pros and cons of pets and my proposition:

Pets can be revived by picking up health orbs and contrary to popular belief actually have some solid utility in addition to their great survivability. Kavat armor stripping, additive crit chance similar to Maiming Strike, etc... Kubrow Dig for ammo/energy/ls, CC on priority targets, priority target lockdown, etc...

And then you complain that people talk about vacuum? If you don't want people to talk about vacuum, maybe you shouldn't make it your title.

So either remove the misleading title or deal with people talking about vacuum.

[GrimSoulis]

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

For the love of god people, stop turning this thread into a big fkn discussion about the perks of Vacuum. We all get it. The whole playerbase gets it. You are beating a dead horse. Have the argument somewhere else.

 

Can I please be given the power to delete thread-derailing comments?

Maybe you shouldn't make threads with obvious answers then o.O your thread is just one among thousands on this topic, your topic was basically answered in nearly every vacuum topic ever made as well so yours is pretty much already pointless. People can base their own opinions in your thread or not it's a "community" and public forum. Talking about universal vacuum on both sentinels and pets and wondering what people would use is no different then any vacuum thread made since they all contain your answer saying people would use pets if they had vacuum.

Edited May 25, 2017 by GrimSoulis

[Doomsknightmare]

Pets +1 !

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

 

Dude, read the OP.

 

 

Yet you and others have this overwhelming desire to talk about Vacuum. Again, the people of the forums prove they can't handle sticking to the point of conversation and continue to lose their minds when the word Vacuum is mentioned. Many a paragraph will be written in vein.

 

Example intelligent answers:

"Yes! I would love to use a pet if Vacuum was Universal!"

"No! Pets have terrible AI and I wouldn't use them even if Vacuum was universal!"

"No! Sentinels have better utility!"

"Yes! Pets are cool and I wouldn't feel so bad about using one if I didn't have to give up Vacuum!"

"No! Pets are too glitchy! I recommend *insert suggestion here*"

No offense, but are you autistic by any chance?