Neg. Multishot on Rivens should not reduce normal damage output

[Xekrin]

As shown, I have no multi-shot mods currently on this weapon, yet due to the Riven I have zero damage.  Functionally speaking this should not occur.  If I had Hell's Chamber installed, I would effectively have 120% multi-shot which, with the Riven, would be reduced to 11.7% multi-shot chance.

Now if I install Hell's Chamber and the riven, I suddenly get damage back, increased, I'm guessing, by that 11.7%.

---

Because the Riven is reducing only Multishot, there should be no negative effect on the weapon unless I have multi-shot actually installed.  There is already zero chance of this gun doing multishot, unless I equip a mod which increases that.  I may not be great at maths, but everything multiplied or divided by zero is still zero.  -108.3% of 0 = 0, no chance of multishot, which is what the gun started with, hence no change.

If the point of rivens is to promote different styles of game play, create different builds and not merely be a way to buff outdated weapons DE doesn't have time to bother buffing one by one, then the mechanics should work appropriately, not haphazardly just because.

Of course, no one in their right mind would actually use a Riven with a negative multishot with serious intent, so if I'm wrong or this never changes, it wouldn't really matter much.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Xekrin

[CoffeeMonster42]

Shotguns do have natural multishot though

[Xekrin]

6 minutes ago, PrwnStar42 said:

Shotguns do have natural multishot though

I do not consider a shotgun's normal state of shooting many pellets to be multishot in the sense of how mods use and manipulate it.  I've never bothered to keep a riven with negative multishot on any other weapon though so I never bothered checking whether it works the same as it does as indicated above.

My guess is it does though, so even if multishot is innate to the shotgun family, that is its natural damage output and is still not modded as such and riven mod negative multishot still should not touch it.

 

[IceColdHawk]

You start out with shooting only 1 normal bullet or shot without any multishot. Every instance of +100% multishot equals +1 bullet (or +1 shot in shotguns case). So every instance of -100% multishot equals -1 bullet/shot. I see no problems there. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[Homer87]

Not seeing an issue on this one - with the riven on the gun and no multishot to counter the negative, you're effectively modding to fire nothing. Honestly, I'd reroll that riven.

[taiiat]

if a Negative Stat doesn't do anything, then it isn't really a Negative Stat at all, now is it? just a free upgrade.

[TerrorLTZ]

This is your gun now

[Xekrin]

59 minutes ago, Homer87 said:

Honestly, I'd reroll that riven.

I plan on it, just wanted to see what the effects would be.

26 minutes ago, TerrorEnPie said:

This is your gun now

LOL, cute.

[Xekrin]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

if a Negative Stat doesn't do anything, then it isn't really a Negative Stat at all, now is it? just a free upgrade.

Well when you get a bow riven with negative magazine capacity, or a simulor riven with negative puncture damage, what are those?  They do nothing, right?

Unless you are actually using multishot, negative multishot stat should do nothing.  It isn't exactly a free upgrade, because it will still decrease your overall damage, as it is still preventing the mandatory multishot mods from having full effect.  It is still a negative, you should just have the choice of not wasting a mod slot on said multishot mod if it is not going to benefit the weapon.  

Instead you have to install multishot to push it above the negative amount on the riven just to get damage on the gun. Just saying, if there is no actual multishot on the weapon, why is it reducing normal damage?

But whatever, I guess it just makes sense to me so I must be crazy.  That's fine, I'm used to it.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

35 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Well when you get a bow riven with negative magazine capacity, or a simulor riven with negative puncture damage, what are those?  They do nothing, right? Thats because they have nothing to remove. Multishot,damage, crit, crit damage, reload, firerate ammo are universal to all guns so if they go negative they take what you have originally.

 

 

 

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, Xekrin said:

Just saying, if there is no actual multishot on the weapon, why is it reducing normal damage?

It isn't reducing your damage. It only reduces your chance to deal any damage at all. The stats it shows you are not the "lowered" damage you deal per bullet but the AVERAGE damage you put out per shot.

The reason why it reduces your stats without split chamber being in it is simple. It could be abused way too hard. -80% flight speed on acrid. Why does it remove my flight speed when i haven't put the mod +flight speed in it? Simple, because otherwise it would be no negative. It's just how corrupted mods work.

1 hour ago, Xekrin said:

But whatever, I guess it just makes sense to me so I must be crazy.  That's fine, I'm used to it.

Don't throw the towel already just because people simply explained you, what you understood wrong. No need to act like this. I understand that you're frustrated about having -multishot rivens. Look at the riven from my friend:

Spoiler

Now imagine the recoil being swapped with the multishot...Now this is just painful to see. But **** happens.

[Xekrin]

40 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats because they have nothing to remove. Multishot,damage, crit, crit damage, reload, firerate ammo are universal to all guns so if they go negative they take what you have originally.

Eh, whatever, I'm wrong then.  Not going to argue my point any further.

[Xekrin]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Don't throw the towel already just because people simply explained you, what you understood wrong.

I'm throwing in the towel because I don't care enough to argue the point.  But fine, I'll try one more time.  This is how I see it.

A gun, shoots bullets, that is the normal functioning of the gun.  Add multishot, it has a chance to fire an additional bullet, because of the mod.  Another mod gives negative multishot, now if there is no current mod on the gun for it, then what it is taking away is the normal function of the gun.

Comparing it to acrid and flight speed is irrelevant.  Bullets are either hitscan or have flight speed, that is a normal function of a bullet.  reducing that, regardless of other flight speed mods being installed is not the same thing.

Yet, the way people are explaining it is every gun has multishot built in at 100% equaling one bullet, any further multishot mods will increase that chance to two bullets or three or reduce it accordingly.  

The problem with the above explanation is that 100% multishot (original function for a gun) uses a single bullet, each additional chance at another bullet being added (ie, multishot mods) does NOT use any bullets.  Barrel diffusion and lethal torrent on a secondary increases multishot over 300%, yet only a single bullet is consumed.

So if the normal functioning of a weapon is 100% multishot (ie, the first bullet used) why does more multishot not use extra ammo?  Conclusion, normal guns firing one bullet prior to additional multishot is NOT 100% multishot but is in actuallity the normal function of the gun.

I get that the current mechanics of the game is all wacky and therefore it actually is 100% multishot, but that is rather the entire point of my OP.

So yeah, if this still makes no sense to no one else, I will not bother replying further, its pretty pointless.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Well when you get a bow riven with negative magazine capacity, or a simulor riven with negative puncture damage, what are those?  They do nothing, right?

yes, and those are simply free upgrades, which shouldn't exist.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Xekrin said:

I'm throwing in the towel because I don't care enough to argue the point.  But fine, I'll try one more time.  This is how I see it.

A gun, shoots bullets, that is the normal functioning of the gun.  Add multishot, it has a chance to fire an additional bullet, because of the mod.  Another mod gives negative multishot, now if there is no current mod on the gun for it, then what it is taking away is the normal function of the gun.

Comparing it to acrid and flight speed is irrelevant.  Bullets are either hitscan or have flight speed, that is a normal function of a bullet.  reducing that, regardless of other flight speed mods being installed is not the same thing.

Yet, the way people are explaining it is every gun has multishot built in at 100% equaling one bullet, any further multishot mods will increase that chance to two bullets or three or reduce it accordingly.  

The problem with the above explanation is that 100% multishot (original function for a gun) uses a single bullet, each additional chance at another bullet being added (ie, multishot mods) does NOT use any bullets.  Barrel diffusion and lethal torrent on a secondary increases multishot over 300%, yet only a single bullet is consumed.

So if the normal functioning of a weapon is 100% multishot (ie, the first bullet used) why does more multishot not use extra ammo?  Conclusion, normal guns firing one bullet prior to additional multishot is NOT 100% multishot but is in actuallity the normal function of the gun.

I get that the current mechanics of the game is all wacky and therefore it actually is 100% multishot, but that is rather the entire point of my OP.

So yeah, if this still makes no sense to no one else, I will not bother replying further, its pretty pointless.

Okay lets make it easier for you.

We have a weapon what shots 1 bullet.

+100% multishot grants it +1 bullet

-100% multishot grants it -1 bullet

1-1=0

Its this simple. If you read the description of the multishot you will see that it says "grants an additional bullet for no cost" if you invert it aka make it go negative it says "takes away a bullet for a cost"

[DSpite]

It's the equivalent of having "negative apples" if you have 1 apple, and someone takes 5 apples away from you.

It's a side effect of formulas not having a hand coded constraint to deal with negatives, same when you have a Riven that causes negative damage, and you actually HEAL the target you are shooting at.

Many games can't "logically" account for negative values.

For the record, having a recoil "less then zero" does not apparently cause any ill effects, at least not on a Flux Rifle, as I have a Riven at "-110.5% Recoil"

There was an issue in EVE Online once, where it was possible under some conditions to have "negative" tracking on weapons - traking effects the ability to still hit a moving target - that causes tracking to turn into MASSIVE numbers instead, and suddenly those guns never missed.

https://www.engadget.com/2010/09/17/new-eve-exploit-gives-wormhole-corp-incredible-advantage/

Edited May 28, 2017 by DSpite

[UdsUds]

On 5/26/2017 at 11:21 PM, Xekrin said:

A gun, shoots bullets, that is the normal functioning of the gun.  Add multishot, it has a chance to fire an additional bullet, because of the mod.  Another mod gives negative multishot, now if there is no current mod on the gun for it, then what it is taking away is the normal function of the gun.

This is how I see it :

a gun w/o multi shot = 100 dmg  

a gun w 100% multishot = 2x 100dmg    >>> you can clearly see the effect on a normal gun that damage is increase although it should be the same

a gun w -100% multishot = 0x 100 dmg  >>> welp ZERO bullet output equal ZERO damage

 

_{hope it will help clear something}

 

 

[Djego27]

First I would like to say I am sorry for overreacting in your heat damage thread, as I completely overlooked that the way I learned math might not be a useful approach depeing on how math, logical or abstract thinking was educated on a individual basis and putting things in relationship might make zero sense for people that are do not have a deep understanding of the things and will actually understandable not be able to relate to it.

I think your problem is the way you look at it mathematical.

You assume there is a value x that expresses the normal shot and a value y that expresses the multi shot, what is fine as a basic model, even if it will not be used like this in programming, for performance reasons and because it would be a unnecessary abstract way for a machine to look at it it mathematically in practical application(even if it might be more understandable for a normal human that way).

Minimal background:

0 and 1 are not only numbers in math but defined states, with special meaning to them. 0 is your expression of the lack of something that is not there in any measurable amount while 1 is your neutral element. You can multiply or divide everything with 1 and it will stay the same.

x = our normal shot not affected by multi shot

y = your multi shot base value

a = your amount of multi shot you add or remove

z = the actual amount of shots fired

x + (y * a) = z

If we look at this your way it would look like this with your model:

Riven: 1 + (0 * - 1.08) = 1

Hells Chamber: 1 + (0 * 1.2) = 1

Both mods: 1 + (0 * (1.2 - 1.08)) = 1

So by defining it is multiplicative and the base value for multi shot should be 0, nothing works. However as we see that is just because we multiply with 0 what will always result in 0(because quantities of nothing are still nothing, it is not measurable, because we can not define it better mathematically), so we need a neutral element to be able to describe a lack of something with something else then 0 to produce the intended mathematical result(since 1 * 0 is also 0 that still keeps our formula correct) or in the case we add something we see a change by multiplication. Since 1 is our common neutral element in math, lets just define y as 1.

1 + (1 * -1.08) = -0.08                                1 + (1 * 1.2) = 2.2                 1 + (1 *  (1.2 - 1.08)) = 1.12

This all produces the expected outcome, with the exception of -0.08 that actually was in the game and did heal stuff you did shot before DE added a exception for that in her code(you define for the machine every number lower then 0 should be not negative but 0 as mathematical rule). However since we already figured out that we need a neutral element for describing mathematically multi shot as something that is there even if it is not, we also do not need normal shots expressed with x because we can included them in y as the base value what makes it much easier to process for a machine as this:

z = y * a++; if(z < 0) z = 0;

For a machine the existence of a normal shot makes no sense because this is simply a concept that our brain can relate to easier and can be removed, even if it is actually there because it is in our mathematical model included in the multi shot all the time, simply by defining what multi shot is different.

What you request is basically this:

z = y * a++; if(z < 1) z = 1;

However at this point DE could probably completely remove the modifier, given that people would just use a damage mod instead of a multi shot mod and the rivens would still probably be re rolled anyway, given that it is a massive damage loss.

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Djego27

[TankHunter678]

Now the real question is if this is just another arsenal display bug, which could be tested by just putting that mod on only and going into any mission and firing at an enemy to see if it fires anything at all.

If it does not then...

The reason why you do 0 damage with the negative multishot is because multishot applies to every single projectile and there is no minimum projectile restriction in place. So it can freely delete the projectiles the weapon would otherwise have. Leading to blanks that do no damage. Which needs to be fixed.