A possible easy fix to ability damage regards scaling.

[-CM-NineFingers]

What if non-sustained warframe damage abilities (like banshee's  Sonic Boom, and, in general, most 1st abilities and abilities that don't require ) ignored armor completely? since health and shields scale with level, they would remain tough enemies, while also letting warframes trust their abilities more. I just hate how some abilities are just not worth using in almost all the game. % of health scaling makes the problem less evident, but still they fall hard past level 80-100.

What I intend to say is that without the armor, abilities like nekros punch, banshee's SB, Oberon's smite and such would be good, and remain good in higher level, while at the same time won't make nukes any better.

[Skaleek]

I've always advocated a system like this. For example fireball would do 1000 damage OR 25% health damage, whichever is higher. This makes abilities scale far better than weapons into the very late game. So basically your abilities and weapons wipe the floor with everything early on, mid-game weapons are still (probably) the most efficient, then as you get further and further into the enemy scaling abilities (static non toggle ones like fireball) use their scaling to take the top spot again. Because right now weapons get you far further in the game than abilities do, with few exceptions of course.

Using a fireball 4x to kill one enemy would still be time consuming, but it would be something. The discussion for whether or not power strength effects this % would be something to have though.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Skaleek

[AlphaPHENIX]

You mean there is a way to make Radial Javalin useful without necessarily buffing it or using a max damage build that would make the energy cost stupidly high? Count me in.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Or give us more armor stripping 1st abilites like the awesome Seeking Shuriken Augment

 

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

What if non-sustained warframe damage abilities (like banshee's  Sonic Boom, and, in general, most 1st abilities and abilities that don't require ) ignored armor completely? since health and shields scale with level, they would remain tough enemies, while also letting warframes trust their abilities more. I just hate how some abilities are just not worth using in almost all the game. % of health scaling makes the problem less evident, but still they fall hard past level 80-100.

What I intend to say is that without the armor, abilities like nekros punch, banshee's SB, Oberon's smite and such would be good, and remain good in higher level, while at the same time won't make nukes any better.

Rhinos 1 is a good example. Needs scaling badly

[-CM-NineFingers]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Or give us more armor stripping 1st abilites like the awesome Seeking Shuriken Augment

 

 

augments are okay, but they're still bandaid mods. We need a definitive solution.

[Hellmaker2004]

The thing is that damage is supposed to fall off, we are not supposed to stay in endless mode for as long as we please.The current "end game" is around 100 level foes.

 

Most frames are already balanced around there toolkit, some deal less damage some deal more. It is all about the pros and cons, certain frames are better at certain tasks. That is what we would call game balance since frames are what we can call "classes". Now i doubt anyone will say that all the frames are perfectly balanced but most of them can perform fine at endgame.

 

So ability's with scaling damage is something i disagree highly on.

[DSpite]

7 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

What if non-sustained warframe damage abilities (like banshee's  Sonic Boom, and, in general, most 1st abilities and abilities that don't require ) ignored armor completely? since health and shields scale with level, they would remain tough enemies, while also letting warframes trust their abilities more. I just hate how some abilities are just not worth using in almost all the game. % of health scaling makes the problem less evident, but still they fall hard past level 80-100.

What I intend to say is that without the armor, abilities like nekros punch, banshee's SB, Oberon's smite and such would be good, and remain good in higher level, while at the same time won't make nukes any better.

Enemy "scaling" is designed to make you leave a level and not stand there and farm for hours.

Your idea just allows players to go longer, and "longer" is already meaningless in this game as the rewards don't change, as we are running missions, and not playing Dungeon Defenders.

The only reason "endless" is even a thing is for people who are bored and just to have ladder boards for people to try and get onto.

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 hours ago, DSpite said:

Enemy "scaling" is designed to make you leave a level and not stand there and farm for hours.

Your idea just allows players to go longer, and "longer" is already meaningless in this game as the rewards don't change, as we are running missions, and not playing Dungeon Defenders.

The only reason "endless" is even a thing is for people who are bored and just to have ladder boards for people to try and get onto.

My idea is not to make everything go on forever. Is to give warframe abilities the power they deserve. No sonic boom, no smite, no charge and no soul punch is gonna leave you go on "forever" (because sure, they will kill everything in a split second before enemies rape you, and it's energy sustainable, right?). What in the world made you think giving some abilities the potential to deal a decent damage regardless of level is the same as making the ability OP and able to destroy anything in your fiery wrath of soul punches? No. There's not a snowball chance in hell that they will be that OP.

The health scaling by itself makes what you think impossible. removing the effects of armor on a void energy based attack not only makes sense, it keeps being useful into the level 100. 

 

For example, a grineer elite lancer has 16406.25 health points at level 100. Explain me how dealing 500-1000 damage per ability makes that too powerful.

At level 80 it still has 9656.25

At 60, 4706.25

Tell me how being able to deal 500-1500 damage (depending on frame and build) is so powerful, while it would still take 3+ uses on a single enemy trashmob at level 60. there's just no way it's useful with that energy consumption per enemy.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Eh...when 2 factions have little to no armored units (and even the void is questionable in that regard), and with the real reason armor sucks being that it scales way too much, this would feel more like a band-aid solution.

[-CM-NineFingers]

20 hours ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Eh...when 2 factions have little to no armored units (and even the void is questionable in that regard), and with the real reason armor sucks being that it scales way too much, this would feel more like a band-aid solution.

It will work regardless of if they fix scaling or not. It's not a bandaid, it just makes the abilities be useful up to level 60~ ish instead of being worthless at level 20.

What's the point of having 4 abilities if one of them will be useless past the initial stage of the game? Augments are bandaids, we need a solution to make them more useful, this is one.

Edited May 27, 2017 by -CM-Limbo
corrected a typo

[SenorClipClop]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:56 AM, -CM-Limbo said:

What I intend to say is that without the armor, abilities like nekros punch, banshee's SB, Oberon's smite and such would be good, and remain good in higher level, while at the same time won't make nukes any better.

Not the best examples. Smite actually does scale with percent health and shield damage. Soul Punch and Sonic Boom aren't really designed to deal damage anyway, they're more for CC.

[-CM-NineFingers]

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Not the best examples. Smite actually does scale with percent health and shield damage. Soul Punch and Sonic Boom aren't really designed to deal damage anyway, they're more for CC.

I answered this at least 3 times but for some reason the post keeps dissapearing.

Smite scales yes, but falls hard against the armor scaling. Soul punch and Sonic Boom are in no way designed to use as CC, they're directional abilities that can save you in a split second situation and give no CC whatsoever. They are not useful even when spammed (and that also makes them energy inefficient).

The augments for those abilities however are the real bandaids, turning a useless ability into a useful one at the cost of a mod slot.

[Music4Therapy]

On 5/26/2017 at 8:05 AM, Skaleek said:

I've always advocated a system like this. For example fireball would do 1000 damage OR 25% health damage, whichever is higher. This makes abilities scale far better than weapons into the very late game. So basically your abilities and weapons wipe the floor with everything early on, mid-game weapons are still (probably) the most efficient, then as you get further and further into the enemy scaling abilities (static non toggle ones like fireball) use their scaling to take the top spot again. Because right now weapons get you far further in the game than abilities do, with few exceptions of course.

Using a fireball 4x to kill one enemy would still be time consuming, but it would be something. The discussion for whether or not power strength effects this % would be something to have though.

 

The way that would be balanced is that the percentage would remain fixed with the base damage being altered by strength.

So, you would use said ability on said high level enemy OP is referring to. If you have 100% strength, chances are with your method and using your example that the 25% max health in damage will be dealt. However, if you invest in Power Strength, the base damage would have the potential to outdamage the % thus you'd apply that total instead.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, Music4Therapy said:

The way that would be balanced is that the percentage would remain fixed with the base damage being altered by strength.

So, you would use said ability on said high level enemy OP is referring to. If you have 100% strength, chances are with your method and using your example that the 25% max health in damage will be dealt. However, if you invest in Power Strength, the base damage would have the potential to outdamage the % thus you'd apply that total instead.

Wait i may be getting this wrong, but are you really saying that skills should have two way of scaling one with power strength and one outside it?

 

Either

A: Skill deal 100/200/300/400 Damage modified by Power Strength

Example: At rank 4 with 130% Power strength the skill will deal 520 Damage

 

B: Skill Deal 25% Of the targets maximum health.

Example: It takes four uses of the skill to kill a foe whatever he is level 1 or level 9999.

 

And then the game would pick whatever is the highest of the two?

Because i be honest that sounds like a terrible idea. People would simply tank there own power strength in most cases so that they can bolster the other stats such as range, efficiency and duration. This way one would maximize the effect you can have with ability's after a certain time and before that i am pretty sure weapons can and will carry your offensive output.

[Music4Therapy]

Just now, Hellmaker2004 said:

Wait i may be getting this wrong, but are you really saying that skills should have two way of scaling one with power strength and one outside it?

 

Either

A: Skill deal 100/200/300/400 Damage modified by Power Strength

Example: At rank 4 with 130% Power strength the skill will deal 520 Damage

 

B: Skill Deal 25% Of the targets maximum health.

Example: It takes four uses of the skill to kill a foe whatever he is level 1 or level 9999.

 

And then the game would pick whatever is the highest of the two?

Because i be honest that sounds like a terrible idea. People would simply tank there own power strength in most cases so that they can bolster the other stats such as range, efficiency and duration. This way one would maximize the effect you can have with ability's after a certain time and before that i am pretty sure weapons can and will carry your offensive output.

Correct, and I don't agree that tanking Power Strength would be a thing in the vast majority of cases. We are only talking about first abilities, and not even all of them. Power Strength effects many things aside from damage of your first ability, the strength of a frame's utility (speed buffs, damage buffs, armor buffs, slows, CC, etc...) is normally attached to a frame's strength, for example. You don't build Strength just to buff your first ability's damage, why would you tank your strength just because it scales? All this would do is allow the damage of abilities to remain relevant while having strength still determine how effective a frame's utility is.

[SenorClipClop]

5 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Soul punch and Sonic Boom are in no way designed to use as CC, they're directional abilities that can save you in a split second situation and give no CC whatsoever.

Lemme quote you a quick definition of CC I looked up.

Quote

Crowd control (also called CC) is a term used in MMORPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) and MOBAs (Multiplayer Online Battle Arenas) to refer to the ability to limit the number of mobs actively fighting during an encounter.

Soul Punch is a point-click ragdolling power. Sonic Boom does the same in a large cone. Both are designed to temporarily incapacitate enemies, defensively to keep the frame alive or aggressively to leave them prone for finishers. In any case, these powers both are designed to limit the number of mobs actively fighting, and so fit the definition of CC.

If you've been trying to use Sonic Boom for damage, I've got some bad news for you...

Edited May 28, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[-CM-NineFingers]

19 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Crowd control (also called CC) is a term used in MMORPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) and MOBAs (Multiplayer Online Battle Arenas) to refer to the ability to limit the number of mobs actively fighting during an encounter.

Given that those abilities can only limit those mobs actively fighting for less than 3 seconds (the time needed for them to stand up again), and SP will only knockback a single unit, the CC they provide is virtually inexistent, hence my claim that these abilites are not CC. While you can use SB to an extent, the claim that SP is a CC ability is ridiculous, since 80% of abilities in warframe can be classified as CC by your definition. CC abilities must:

• provide an advantage via slowing/disabling enemy units
• act in AoE, or having a longer duration and lower cost if it's single target

By your definition, any ability that puts knockbacks or staggers enemies for 0.5s is CC. We need to be realistic.

While I agree some 1st abilities are good CC (Inaros is a perfect example of a great 1st ability with CC), the vast majority are utterly useless, mostly used by mistake or in conjunction with augments, the worse bandaids of all time that will consume mod slots just to have something be useful, instead of just ignoring 25% of the frame's skillset.

[SenorClipClop]

5 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Given that those abilities can only limit those mobs actively fighting for less than 3 seconds (the time needed for them to stand up again), and SP will only knockback a single unit, the CC they provide is virtually inexistent, hence my claim that these abilites are not CC. While you can use SB to an extent, the claim that SP is a CC ability is ridiculous, since 80% of abilities in warframe can be classified as CC by your definition. CC abilities must:

• provide an advantage via slowing/disabling enemy units
• act in AoE, or having a longer duration and lower cost if it's single target

By your definition, any ability that puts knockbacks or staggers enemies for 0.5s is CC. We need to be realistic.

I am being realistic. Maybe you're unable to follow up on CC unless it's over a big space and a long time? In a game this fast-paced and with the reaction time needed for Tenno in high-level play, I'm surprised that 3 seconds is an 'inexistent' amount of time for you.

For me, Soul Punch is great CC. I turn a corner and run into a Corpus Tech. Since SP is point-click, I hit 1 to disable and instantly knock him down, then I blast him with Tigris Prime and get in a melee finisher if the job's not done. That is CC. It's effective and it works, and it gives me a huge advantage over my foe, who is for a brief period not allowed to attack me or move, while I can continue fighting. (I could also hit 2 if I can spare the energy, but SP is much cheaper than Terrify.) Some CC is more absolute than others. Radial Blind is more effective than a melee ground slam, but both are viable forms of crowd control. In the case of Soul Punch, it's true that it only CCs one target, so it's best to use it to ragdoll the enemy that would otherwise cause you the most grief.

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

I am being realistic. Maybe you're unable to follow up on CC unless it's over a big space and a long time? In a game this fast-paced and with the reaction time needed for Tenno in high-level play, I'm surprised that 3 seconds is an 'inexistent' amount of time for you.

For me, Soul Punch is great CC. I turn a corner and run into a Corpus Tech. Since SP is point-click, I hit 1 to disable and instantly knock him down, then I blast him with Tigris Prime and get in a melee finisher if the job's not done. That is CC. It's effective and it works, and it gives me a huge advantage over my foe, who is for a brief period not allowed to attack me or move, while I can continue fighting. (I could also hit 2 if I can spare the energy, but SP is much cheaper than Terrify.) Some CC is more absolute than others. Radial Blind is more effective than a melee ground slam, but both are viable forms of crowd control. In the case of Soul Punch, it's true that it only CCs one target, so it's best to use it to ragdoll the enemy that would otherwise cause you the most grief.

Couldnt you just have shot him with your tigris P and skipped the middle man? Soul punch is definitely CC but when its compared to most of the CC abilities in WF, i would categorize it as "just barely" CC.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Skaleek

[-CM-NineFingers]

@SenorClipClop, @Skaleek got it right. Is it CC? kinda. Is it useful? Meh. Is it worth using when you have real CC 1 key away? Nope.

When I say we must be realistic, I mean "warframe is a horde killing game. a single target cc that last less than 8s is useless in 90% of situations".

 

Also no need to hint towards the "git gud" you desperately want to say. "If you've been trying to use Sonic Boom for damage, I've got some bad news for you..." "Maybe you're unable to follow up on CC unless it's over a big space and a long time?" bein passively agressive won't make your statements more true. We can all be respectful.

Edited May 29, 2017 by -CM-Limbo