Energy gain and ultimate abilities

[Witchydragon]

FFA is going to be heavily luck based in any game, and involve waiting for other players to become preoccupied before stepping in. However, when the player steps into an ongoing firefight, the fight should not end because #3 pressed 4. #3 should not be able to press 4 a dozen times a match. 

One of the things that makes FFA really annoying is the excess energy. Why does energy automatically regenerate when it's already a map pickup? Why does it regenerate as quickly as it does? It doesn't need to, and the current iteration of energy/ability design makes the game feel like a hard version of the PvE, rather than a PvP mode. I mean this in a bad way. 

Energy should not automatically regenerate. Period. Energy should be a controlled resource players pickup for utility, not a secondary (or for some players, primary) fragging tool. Energy regeneration allows players to use crutch abilities without even having to be in predictable locations. 

Abilities like Reckoning and Crush should be area denial, not outright fragging. Exalted weapons are mostly fine, but should have reduced magnetism. Reckoning should instead create one massive falling ring that does lethal damage, without literally immobilizing all players within range, and should fall much slower. Crush should start it's damage ticks later. To make up for their reduced fragging potential, they could also make the users invulnerable during the cast, or act as a radial shield. Really, the point is to turn these abilities into utility rather than easy frags.

[artemisfortune]

Friendly Reminder that this is a conclave post.

OT: You make a lot of really great points. Energy should be like, a commodity, not a resource. Abilities should be a last resort in conclave, not the main source of gameplay.

Edited May 28, 2017 by JSharpie

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

I feel like energy should be removed entirely as pick ups, and instead should be rewarded per kill. Playing the game of whoever runs around the map any get's the most energy wins is kinda... not fun

Sometimes Abilities feel useless, sometimes I feel they are overpowered.. Normally I just want an ability to slow people down so I can actually hit them. I think it would work great if abilities worked like kill streaks per say.

(console user btw Kinda hard to aim at a target and bullet jump in the same direction as them as the same time) 

[Nazrethim]

I'm okay with energy supply being reduced as long as melee is given it's own channeling resource instead of said mechanic draining energy. Perhaps the return of stamina?

Also, Ultimates are very unbalanced. How does Mag crush fraggs all but the tankiest of frames in AoE while the arguably single target BS deals half the damage every other ultimate does?

Edited May 28, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Witchydragon]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

I'm okay with energy supply being reduced as long as melee is given it's own channeling resource instead

Melee channel should just be disabled. Give it appropriate damage when not channeling. Channel block isn't integral to melee either.

[SevenLetterKWord]

Abilities create variety in gameplay and, more than anything else, define the identities of frames.
Of course, certain abilities are a poor fit for Conclave's environment - Sound Quake, Rest, and everything Rift-related come to mind - and warrant redesign, and certain others - like Reckoning and Avalanche - are imbalanced. These, however, can and should be addressed on an individual basis without minimizing the role of abilities in general.

6 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

One of the things that makes FFA really annoying is the excess energy.

Energy orb spawns are scaled to lobby size. "Excess energy" occurs if several players choose not to seek out orbs.

6 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Energy regeneration allows players to use crutch abilities without even having to be in predictable locations. 

Picking up an energy orb is instantaneous. Given the pacing and mobility of Conclave, a player seeking orbs would hardly have to be in a predictable location.
Perhaps it would be preferable to define dynamic zones of heightened energy regeneration.

2 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Melee channel should just be disabled. Give it appropriate damage when not channeling. Channel block isn't integral to melee either.

It's important for there to be some resource which allows finitely empowered melee. This allows melee to be threatening in specific situations, but prevents users from putting out unlimited pressure. The same resource being consumed for defensive actions - aka channel blocking - appropriately creates the need for tactical tradeoff decisions.

This is accomplished to some degree by energy-channeling, but results in exclusion from ability use. And as energy is consumed per hit and not per swing, melee retains the inexhaustible ability to spam offensive combos until connecting successfully, the only punishment being limited mobility within the combo animations. Additionally, as channeling efficiency is constant across the board (with a few exceptions), fast, weak weapons are left at an efficiency disadvantage.

[_GoodLuck_]

At now, without abilities (and auto aiming) too hard to catch monkeys (player type). Casting abilities don't give 100% chance to kill monkey, they again can infinitely escape and heal yourself... The best way to fix this — normalize mobility for each warframe (each warframe has 0.8-0.9 mobility, like in some conclave events), remove all mobility mods and nerf freezing/stunning/oneshot abilities.

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Melee channel should just be disabled. Give it appropriate damage when not channeling. Channel block isn't integral to melee either.

That sounds better. Would also make the requirement for Impenetrable Offense less ridiculous, and Relentless Assault could be turned into the HP regen mod melee lacks but guns have.

 

4 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

It's important for there to be some resource which allows finitely empowered melee. This allows melee to be threatening in specific situations, but prevents users from putting out unlimited pressure. The same resource being consumed for defensive actions - aka channel blocking - appropriately creates the need for tactical tradeoff decisions.

This is accomplished to some degree by energy-channeling, but results in exclusion from ability use. And as energy is consumed per hit and not per swing, melee retains the inexhaustible ability to spam offensive combos until connecting successfully, the only punishment being limited mobility within the combo animations. Additionally, as channeling efficiency is constant across the board (with a few exceptions), fast, weak weapons are left at an efficiency disadvantage.

That's all true, but the problem is that while gunplayers compete among each other for ammo, melee needs to share it's resource with everyone, as energy is always on demand. Add to that melee weapons deal sh*t damage without channeling, making it required to actually have the same TTK a gun has by default. A finite resource is fine, but not if said resource is shared with other core gameplay feature like powers.

Channeling moved to it's own, drain over time, resource would be much better and a QoL improvement both in PvP and PvE. The way to replenish it could either be Stamina orbs or a somewhat balanced recharge over time.

About animation lock, that's a thing that really needs to be scrapped out of the system really. As I suggested in another thread, RMB combos should be gap closers without windup on the grounds that jumping (the most effective anti-melee evasive maneuver) doesn't have a windup. To balance that out, the Impair could be moved to the 'pause' combo and the Knockdown being an Equiped Slam-only function (and removed from the weapons that still have it on Quickmelee).

And Channel Efficiency is the same for all weapons, there are no exceptions. Though there are weapons with higher Channeling multipliers, but they are horribly underpowered as they deal less channeled damage than non-channeling counterparts due to dealing way way lower base damage. Example of this is the Furax Wraith, which deals less damage than Furax both normal and channeling.

[Heckzu]

5 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

The best way to fix this —

The best way to fix this — git gud. 

Warframes with higher mobility already pay the tradeoff of having lower EHP.

If you can't kill a guy with 1.0 mobility, you're not going to do much better against a guy with .9 mobility.

[_GoodLuck_]

3 hours ago, Heckzu said:

The best way to fix this — git gud. 

Warframes with higher mobility already pay the tradeoff of having lower EHP.

If you can't kill a guy with 1.0 mobility, you're not going to do much better against a guy with .9 mobility.

Yes, i can not, because my mobility is 0.8 (without mobility mods), and my target every time escape from me if i hit her. 0.8 < 0.9 (1.0) yes?

I can write many reasons, why mobility must be normalized in conclave, but not in this thread.

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 hour ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Yes, i can not, because my mobility is 0.8 (without mobility mods), and my target every time escape from me if i hit her. 0.8 < 0.9 (1.0) yes?

Sure, and I suppose the Hand of God itself prevents you from playing faster frames, a deal with the devil forbids you from modding your slow frame to be faster, and Trump's latest executive order states that you aren't allowed to improve your aiming. Quite the predicament you're in, isn't it?

If you're playing a tanky frame, that is a tradeoff between mobility and survivability that you chose to make.
If you're unable to keep up with lighter, weaker frames, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[_GoodLuck_]

7 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Sure, and I suppose the Hand of God itself prevents you from playing faster frames, a deal with the devil forbids you from modding your slow frame to be faster, and Trump's latest executive order states that you aren't allowed to improve your aiming. Quite the predicament you're in, isn't it?

If you're playing a tanky frame, that is a tradeoff between mobility and survivability that you chose to make.
If you're unable to keep up with lighter, weaker frames, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Survivability? In conclave? This is a joke?

P.S Survivability is based on mobility

Edited May 29, 2017 by _GoodLuck_

[Heckzu]

22 minutes ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Survivability? In conclave? This is a joke?

There are players who prefer to use high EHP builds and win by brute force DPS, killing low EHP enemies before those enemies can kill the said player.

You don't see too many of them, but they exist, and can be quite skilled at aiming.

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Survivability? In conclave? This is a joke?

P.S Survivability is based on mobility

 

5 hours ago, Heckzu said:

There are players who prefer to use high EHP builds and win by brute force DPS, killing low EHP enemies before those enemies can kill the said player.

You don't see too many of them, but they exist, and can be quite skilled at aiming.

Melee playstyle makes easier to build for EHP, as Sword Alone grants mobility and sprint speed, which is generally suficient to live a bit longer. Emphasis on "a bit". Your survivability and killing potential will depend on the tileset, the CTC Orokin Tower/Derelict and Cephalon Spire maps will be your Tomb, while Lua Ruins, Desert Settlement and Grineer and Corpus ships/reactors will give you plenty of places to fight.

[Witchydragon]

10 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Survivability? In conclave? This is a joke?

P.S Survivability is based on mobility

If you truly believe this then it's still your fault for using 0.8 mobility frames, which by your reasoning puts you at a direct disadvantage.

[_GoodLuck_]

3 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

If you truly believe this then it's still your fault for using 0.8 mobility frames, which by your reasoning puts you at a direct disadvantage.

You really believe it's only my problem? I a bit changed direction of my discussion... But who likes this fast gameplay, where all players plays like a monkey, and only one mad player kill all others? Why i in most cases can't find party (i join in empty servers every time)? Because no one like this mobility trash (it's only one reason) and play in others PvE modes. With this worst PvP community, conclave will get bad glory (unfortunately, this is now the truth). I really liked conclave since 1.0 version, but now it's zoo with monkeys.

Good luck, monkeys :3

[Witchydragon]

2 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

-snip-

1. Normalizing mobility is not going to make players "jump around less like monkies".

2. This thread is about how energy excess leads to excessive ability usage. This is not a thread where everyone lists their reasons as to why Conclave sucks. 

3. You've gone from readable to incoherent after 3 posts.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Witchydragon

[(PSN)acesandspades10]

On 5/28/2017 at 6:51 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Sure, and I suppose the Hand of God itself prevents you from playing faster frames, a deal with the devil forbids you from modding your slow frame to be faster, and Trump's latest executive order states that you aren't allowed to improve your aiming. Quite the predicament you're in, isn't it?

If you're playing a tanky frame, that is a tradeoff between mobility and survivability that you chose to make.
If you're unable to keep up with lighter, weaker frames, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

That wasn't fair, that's thier playstyle and git gud is never a valid thing to say.

[SevenLetterKWord]

11 hours ago, (PS4)acesandspades10 said:

That wasn't fair, that's thier playstyle and git gud is never a valid thing to say.

Nonsense. It's completely fair.
"_GoodLuck_" wanted the EHP of a heavy frame and the mobility of a light frame. 

I did not say "git gud", what I said was:
"You cannot have both tankiness and mobility; you must choose. Do not complain if you dislike your own choice."

It's very straightforward.

Edited June 1, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[(PSN)acesandspades10]

27 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

I did not say "git gud", what I said was:
"You must cannot have both tankiness and mobility; you must choose. Do not complain if you dislike your own choice."

It's very straightforward.

Sorry, I meant to say you didn't have to put it in a mean way.

[Witchydragon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)acesandspades10 said:

Sorry, I meant to say you didn't have to put it in a mean way.

You also don't have to put it in a nice way.

[SevenLetterKWord]

3 hours ago, (PS4)acesandspades10 said:

Sorry, I meant to say you didn't have to put it in a mean way.

"_GoodLuck_" was clinging to unreasonable expectations.
I did him the service of dispelling those illusions. I have no obligation to coddle him while doing so.

---

Back on topic:
Just for existing, a player can gain 750 energy in a match. Absolutely no effort is required.
(10 energy on respawn from Follow Through easily compensates for any energy regeneration missed while respawning.)

This is quite a lot. Seven and a half ultimate casts for merely waiting around?
It's good to promote diverse playstyles, but such a generous energy economy means that abilities should not be balanced around energy scarcity.
Ultimates are far too easy to spam, and many deserve rebalancing with that in mind.

^{How many times have you been able to summarize a user's entire playstyle as just "Avalanche" or "Hysteria"?}

---

Spoiler

53 minutes ago, (PS4)acesandspades10 said:

I'm not saying to be nice to _GoodLuck_ I was saying he didnt, have to be rude about it.

Alright, buddy, I think you've spammed enough posts whining about trivialities.
This thread is about "Energy gain and ultimate abilities".
"_GoodLuck_" was wrong to have derailed it with his nonsense complaints.
You are wrong to continue to derail it with your petty objections.

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[(PSN)acesandspades10]

45 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

You also don't have to put it in a nice way.

I'm not saying to be nice to _GoodLuck_ I was saying he didnt, have to be rude about it.

[(PSN)acesandspades10]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:20 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

"_GoodLuck_" was clinging to unreasonable expectations.
I did him the service of dispelling those illusions. I have no obligation to coddle him while doing so.

---

Back on topic:
Just for existing, a player can gain 750 energy in a match. Absolutely no effort is required.
(10 energy on respawn from Follow Through easily compensates for any energy regeneration missed while respawning.)

This is quite a lot. Seven and a half ultimate casts for merely waiting around?
It's good to promote diverse playstyles, but such a generous energy economy means that abilities should not be balanced around energy scarcity.
Ultimates are far too easy to spam, and many deserve rebalancing with that in mind.

^{How many times have you been able to summarize a user's entire playstyle as just "Avalanche" or "Hysteria"?}

---

  Hide contents

Alright, buddy, I think you've spammed enough posts whining about trivialities.
This thread is about "Energy gain and ultimate abilities".
"_GoodLuck_" was wrong to have derailed it with his nonsense complaints.
You are wrong to continue to derail it with your petty objections.

 

I'm not defending his claim I was saying he didn't have to be rude. Not agreeing with him

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

Ability spam is like melee, it requires no effort and requires a cool down or stamina bar in order for it to be balanced.