Energy gain and ultimate abilities

[Nazrethim]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Ability spam is like melee, it requires no effort and requires a cool down or stamina bar in order for it to be balanced.

Sure, because "point&click" or to spice things up hold click requires a lot of effort.

Now, generalization apart. Melee does need a stamina resource... for Channeling, to separate it from energy once and for all (also a request for PvE).

On the topic. A possible solution would be to nerf every Warframe's abilities to... say.. Ash's ability levels. Shuriken hits for jacksquat and requires sheer aim and luck to hit, SS is nearly worthless apart for a little mobility bump and mild annoyance to opponents, Teleport is useless 99% of the time and BS is detrimental to Ash mechanically, offers no real utility and deals less than half the damage of Radial Nuke abilities.

What do you think @Witchydragon?

[Dzecar]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash's ability levels

Ash's abilities are fairly balanced and doesn't require any buffs. Hell, that no energy ult cast with a free tap out if you miss a target just ASKING for a nerf

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, Dzecar said:

Ash's abilities are fairly balanced and doesn't require any buffs. Hell, that no energy ult cast with a free tap out if you miss a target just ASKING for a nerf

Well, that depends on your definition of balanced.

If Ash abilities are balanced, then nearly all other frames are overpowered and due for a nerf.

If the other frames are balanced then Ash is due for a buff.

If energy gains are too high and people are winning by cheap abilities rather than skill then the options are nerfing energy gains (which would s*ck for melee players due to their actual damage comes from channeling, unless channeling is moved to a recharging stamina bar) or nerfing abilities to be more of situational tools rather than main battle weapons (as Ash's abilities allegedy are when they aren't an outright waste of energy)

Also, you may not know this, but BS is The Weakest offensive ultimate on the whole game, best case scenario you waste energy, usual case scenario you die because you were dumb or ignorant enough to attempt to use that garbage.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Dzecar]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

If Ash abilities are balanced, then nearly all other frames are overpowered and due for a nerf.

I agree that some ultimates might use a tonedown, but nerfing something overpowered instead of buffing something already fairly balanced will be a better design decision dont ya think?

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

If energy gains are too high and people are winning by cheap abilities rather than skill then the options are nerfing energy gains

I never seen anyone win a match (legitimately - full lobby, from start to finish) just by casting cheap abilities since... double ability potency modifier and equinox instakill aura.

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

best case scenario you waste energy

There is literally NO way to waste energy with this ability. Marks dont require any energy at all now - you can hit any amount of players you bothered to mark for 100 energy or tap out for free if you dont feel like casting it anymore. Unmissable abilities are bad design decision.

[ShadowStalker]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Ability spam is like melee, it requires no effort and requires a cool down or stamina bar in order for it to be balanced.

lol and you think spamming your mouse button is some really hard thing to do?

maybe bows are the only "Skill requiring" weapons in conclave?

Edited June 12, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Dzecar said:

I agree that some ultimates might use a tonedown, but nerfing something overpowered instead of buffing something already fairly balanced will be a better design decision dont ya think?

Which is what I proposed: Nerf everyone to Ash levels. Radial AoE Nukes damage going down from 300-330 to 100-120s (they are not aimed, have no target cap and are guaranteed to hit), Exalted weapons going from insta-frag levels of damage per swing to 100s per swing and so on.

Just now, Dzecar said:

I never seen anyone win a match (legitimately - full lobby, from start to finish) just by casting cheap abilities since... double ability potency modifier and equinox instakill aura.

Mag, Frost, Banshee and Rhino are very capable of doing so with their ultimates which instantly kill anything that isn't a tank. Valkyr and Excalibur can, respectively, kill and nearly kill anyone per swing. There are some other cases, but these are the most egregious examples of "I WIN BUTTON" frames.

Just now, Dzecar said:

There is literally NO way to waste energy with this ability.

On paper the ability works, in game it doesn't.

Just now, Dzecar said:

Marks dont require any energy at all now - you can hit any amount of players you bothered to mark for 100 energy or tap out for free if you dont feel like casting it anymore. Unmissable abilities are bad design decision.

I just come from 2 matches. 100 energy on a SINGLE target. at one point I literally had two players in front of me but only 1 got marked and took all my energy.

How effective it was? It didn't break shields. And it was an Excalibur on the middle of a fight who didn't have his shield at max.

BS is unmissable in your eyes only. First, it has 8m marking range, which is the same range as radials with no aiming required or single-target cap. If your targets goes further away the mark dissapears (at least it refunds the cost).

If you die while it's active (likely caused because you cannot JUMP or use parkour while it's active for no explained reason) you lose all energy.

Ash can die mid animation by AoE's or stray fire and for frames with knockdowns or staggers, you can actually interrupt it mid animation and if you are quick enough before dealing damage.

Still thinking is due for a nerf?

Also, some other highlights:

Shuriken throws a single shuriken dealing 38 Puncture (doesn't apply bleed or any other harmful effect) that doesn't track anything. Mk-1 Kunai (which is mechanically almost the same, except with higher flight speed, bigger ammo pool and a more reliable flight arc) hits for 70 damage.

Teleport doesn't do anything to the target and cannot be used on aerial targets... meaning it nigh unusable most of the time and pointless when it does work. Also requires pin-point accuracy.

SS costs 35 energy, works almost mechanically the same as Invisibility (50 energy, 20s duration) and lasts for 4s. Doesn't stagger and Tear Gas doesn't actually work (tested by casting it right next to an inmobile player staring at me at point blank, who didn't get blinded by it) and gives 0.4 mobility for it's pitiful duration.

Basically, Ash's only upside is that he can use Channeling for zero drawback, as his abilities are either extremely situational (SS) useless (Shuriken, Teleport) or detrimental to him (failstorm)

[Dzecar]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

BS is unmissable in your eyes only.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

If your targets goes further away the mark dissapears (at least it refunds the cost).

u wot

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

If you die while it's active (likely caused because you cannot JUMP or use parkour while it's active for no explained reason) you lose all energy.

You're not restricted from casting it mid-air(like mesa is). You're not supposed to cast it under heavy fire(and to kill ash that needs to just press 4 twice on you it's either you oneshotting him or never getting up from a knockdown) and it is NOT something you initiate a fight with.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Shuriken throws a single shuriken dealing 38 Puncture (doesn't apply bleed or any other harmful effect) that doesn't track anything. Mk-1 Kunai (which is mechanically almost the same, except with higher flight speed, bigger ammo pool and a more reliable flight arc) hits for 70 damage.

You cannot throw offhand kunai while spraying with karak nor will it hurt any rifted target you want to finish without losing your shields

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash can die mid animation by AoE's or stray fire and for frames with knockdowns or staggers

So can... any other caster?

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

SS costs 35 energy, works almost mechanically the same as Invisibility (50 energy, 20s duration) and lasts for 4s. Doesn't stagger and Tear Gas doesn't actually work (tested by casting it right next to an inmobile player staring at me at point blank, who didn't get blinded by it) and gives 0.4 mobility for it's pitiful duration.

*sigh* SS is a defensive ability which gives even tanky builds mobility ADVANTAGE against superlights that CANNOT be dispelled by anything other than silence(which costs 75 energy). 4 second invisibility with a significant mobility boost is enough to either reposition, aim and cut a big chunk of EHP(or even oneshot if paired with snipers or shotguns) OR safely get away

Tear Gas DOES work and helps a lot. If you have any proof of it not working fill in a bug report. I got hit with it multiple times both hosting myself and being a client so i dont believe you.

Loki invisibility lasts 12 seconds, doesnt grant any mobility, can be dispelled with a single slide attack(2 in case of scoliac, tipedo or other high reach/speed melee weapons) and locks you in casting animation for a second

Edited June 12, 2017 by Dzecar

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

5 hours ago, ShadowStalker said:

lol and you think spamming your mouse button is some really hard thing to do?

maybe bows are the only "Skill requiring" weapons in conclave?

i mean you need to aim with a gun, melee is just button mash spam.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

 

u wot

You're not restricted from casting it mid-air(like mesa is). You're not supposed to cast it under heavy fire(and to kill ash that needs to just press 4 twice on you it's either you oneshotting him or never getting up from a knockdown) and it is NOT something you initiate a fight with.

Oh really? Great! Now tell me at which point during a fight you are NOT under heavy fire. The only way to do that is to use it to initiate a fight. You may say "oh it's a finisher move". Yeah, about that, the other frames are mentioned deal cr*ptons of damage in a non-aimed AoE sphere around them. And I just told you it cannot actually break shields, while other ultimates can leave you with a sliver of health and no shields with the press of a button in the same range and without actually aiming.

The point is very clear: Either it's damage is boosted to that of other ultimates or other ultimate's damage values are nerfed to BS values.

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

You cannot throw offhand kunai while spraying with karak nor will it hurt any rifted target you want to finish without losing your shields

A karak would get the job done (or any other automatic hitscan auto for that matter)on it's own. And Rifted targets are very very specific and with such low damage it's unlikely it would make a difference.

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

So can... any other caster?

Except they have damage to back up that casting animation, whereas Ash doesn't. Again: 150ish damage vs 300-330ish damage.

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

*sigh* SS is a defensive ability which gives even tanky builds mobility ADVANTAGE against superlights that CANNOT be dispelled by anything other than silence(which costs 75 energy). 4 second invisibility with a significant mobility boost is enough to either reposition, aim and cut a big chunk of EHP(or even oneshot if paired with snipers or shotguns) OR safely get away

But without the stagger you are still likely to die by blind stray fire.

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

Tear Gas DOES work and helps a lot. If you have any proof of it not working fill in a bug report. I got hit with it multiple times both hosting myself and being a client so i dont believe you.

I did. And it's still a cr*shoot that doesn't blind anything, not even at pointblank range (That, or I have the bad luck of playing against an army of Zatoichis)

All in all, SS is situational at best, useless most of the time, and it's the only somewhat reliable power.

4 hours ago, Dzecar said:

Loki invisibility lasts 12 seconds, doesnt grant any mobility, can be dispelled with a single slide attack(2 in case of scoliac, tipedo or other high reach/speed melee weapons) and locks you in casting animation for a second

Oh great, must have missed that on the patchnotes at some point. The only thing I recall about Invis is getting the "cancels fi you attack" thing that Ash had since the beginning and Loki didn't for unexplained reasons.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

i mean you need to aim with a gun, melee is just button mash spam.

Melee Playstyle has a different set of skills required. And most of the time is actually harder and trickier than gunplay that is, at it's core, just point&click for nearly all guns with no setup required or lead factor. With some exceptions of course. If you want to talk about skill then it's bows and throwing knives, the vast majority of guns require little to no skill, while melee requires skills to be effective, even with the most powerful weapons.

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

 

 

Melee Playstyle has a different set of skills required. And most of the time is actually harder and trickier than gunplay that is, at it's core, just point&click for nearly all guns with no setup required or lead factor. With some exceptions of course. If you want to talk about skill then it's bows and throwing knives, the vast majority of guns require little to no skill, while melee requires skills to be effective, even with the most powerful weapons.

melee has constant knockdown and impair bonoses compared to guns in general making them a lot easier to use. guns on the other hand dont have that method of slowing down game play  

[Nazrethim]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

melee has constant knockdown and impair bonoses compared to guns in general making them a lot easier to use. guns on the other hand dont have that method of slowing down game play  

Knockdown and Impair have:

-Wind up time (therefore entirely avoidable)

-Cooldown

-Require you to actually hit the target, not an easy task in high levels of play due to constant bulletjump spam.

Guns have range and the fact they are not affected by terrain (sans grenade launchers) while melee is crippled in certain maps. Guns also make use of the mobility system while melee is locked to ground combat.

Again, different sets of skills.

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Knockdown and Impair have:

-Wind up time (therefore entirely avoidable)

-Cooldown

-Require you to actually hit the target, not an easy task in high levels of play due to constant bulletjump spam.

Guns have range and the fact they are not affected by terrain (sans grenade launchers) while melee is crippled in certain maps. Guns also make use of the mobility system while melee is locked to ground combat.

Again, different sets of skills.

- which is spammed enough making it constantly used

-with a band aid mod

- not really because most melee weapons have aoe knockdowns which result in easy unskilled kills

ok i under stand this part but maps like one of the infested maps have a lot of doors which make for easy ambush kills

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 5/27/2017 at 10:11 PM, Witchydragon said:

FFA is going to be heavily luck based in any game, and involve waiting for other players to become preoccupied before stepping in. However, when the player steps into an ongoing firefight, the fight should not end because #3 pressed 4. #3 should not be able to press 4 a dozen times a match. 

One of the things that makes FFA really annoying is the excess energy. Why does energy automatically regenerate when it's already a map pickup? Why does it regenerate as quickly as it does? It doesn't need to, and the current iteration of energy/ability design makes the game feel like a hard version of the PvE, rather than a PvP mode. I mean this in a bad way. 

Energy should not automatically regenerate. Period. Energy should be a controlled resource players pickup for utility, not a secondary (or for some players, primary) fragging tool. Energy regeneration allows players to use crutch abilities without even having to be in predictable locations. 

Abilities like Reckoning and Crush should be area denial, not outright fragging. Exalted weapons are mostly fine, but should have reduced magnetism. Reckoning should instead create one massive falling ring that does lethal damage, without literally immobilizing all players within range, and should fall much slower. Crush should start it's damage ticks later. To make up for their reduced fragging potential, they could also make the users invulnerable during the cast, or act as a radial shield. Really, the point is to turn these abilities into utility rather than easy frags.

I'm thinking the opposite. 50 Energy per pickup is ridiculous. One guy can just burn his way through the map and pick up an instant ult. I say the energy gain should be over time only, promoting more neutral play than anything.