About time to talk about snipers

[-CM-NineFingers]

Given that the upcoming frame Harrow focuses on precision and accuracy, I find it's a great moment to talk about snipers. I have a couple of ideas and would love to hear what you think of this.

• Scope multipliers : These are a bad thing for snipers. The game should not reward you for shooting with a x10 zoom. Either make this bonus apply all the time you're scoped regardless of level, or link it to distance to target and remove the cap. If you manage to hit something at 1000m, you well deserve a 100% extra damage. a 1% damage increase for every 10 meters, for example, would encourage using snipers from afar, instead of zooming at max on the grineer 2m away. This way, you get a good reason to use the zoom on the snipers, and rewarded for your skill. Since there isn't that much open space on warframe, a minimum cap would be appreciated, to not force us to flee each combat in order to get the scope bonus.

 

• Sniper combo counter : While this is a nice feature, it's conter-intuitive. The combo counter forces you to shoot quickly, but also penalises you for missing a shot. There's a couple things, however, that could make this great. For one, the time cap could be removed, and instead we lose the combo when we stop aiming with the scope. Second, the combo should not dissapear on a missed shot, but take away an amount -maybe equal to the magazine size of the weapon- of shots from the combo. That would, at the same time, reward players for careful aim and accuracy, and be more forgiving about someone missing a shot. the mod Harkonar Scope could be turned into something that lets you keep the combo counter for a set amount of time even when you stop actively aiming, leting you take a better position and keep shooting.

 

• Scope shake : Why do snipers shake that much when all other weapons have perfect aim, always, without hesitation, like if a statue was holding that weapon? But when you grab a sniper, the scope will shake, more noticeably when you max the zoom. Why do warframes have pinpoint accuracy, but have a stroke when they aim with a sniper? This thing needs a tweak.

 

• They are goddamn snipers! : You shoot a cucumber-sized bullet into a grineer, and it does nothing. you shoot an arrow, and you hit the grineer, the wall behind it and the grineer behind that wall. What do I mean with this? Since bows took the punch through, let snipers have a greater headshot multiplier. A x3 headshot damage should be enough to make you aim for the head. Shots to the body should cause a knockback, for two reasons: the amount of force a sniper rounds should carry, and because that knockback will move the target out of sights, making you want to hit the head more for a fast elimination. This adds at the same time a good thing (you can knockback a heavy unit, for example a bombard, and prevent it from shooting), and a bad thing (if you hit the body, you will have to adjust your aim, since a second shot in the same spot would hit nothing)

 

Currently, our best sniper is not even a sniper: the ferrox. With a good base damage, perfect accuracy regardless of aiming, great crit chance and damage, it's ahead of any sniper currently in the game. Please, make snipers the great weapons they can be!

[PrVonTuckIII]

I agree with all of your suggestions. I just need to nitpick one thing:

4 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

you shoot an arrow, and you hit the grineer, the wall behind it and the grineer behind that wall.

What everyone seems to forget, and I keep repeating, is that every bow in the game is literally a railgun. If they didn't do what they did, I would be surprised.

[-CM-NineFingers]

Just now, PrVonTuckIII said:

What everyone seems to forget, and I keep repeating, is that every bow in the game is literally a railgun. If they didn't do what they did, I would be surprised.

I agree on that, I just quoted them because they have innate punch through, and as that's a bow thing, higher headshot multiplier could be a good thing for snipers without stepping into bow territory.

[PrVonTuckIII]

5 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

I agree on that, I just quoted them because they have innate punch through, and as that's a bow thing, higher headshot multiplier could be a good thing for snipers without stepping into bow territory.

No doubts there. Your actual suggestions are solid, and I would hope for some version of them to be added in.

[Xardis]

I disagree with the idea that you lose combo when you stop aiming down. Make it not apply to shots without aiming and the Harkonar Scope to give you one more combo point for headshots and 1 free miss for every 15s or 20 combo points.

Also, as it stands, Ferrox is one of the best snipers while being very near the category. What is far more sad is that Tenora's alt fire is also better than most sniper rifles. A alt fire of an assault rifle.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Xardis

[TheSteelRat]

some secondary pistols are better "snipers" than actual snipers

Sniper weapons in RL rely on accuracy at long range and usually good penetration due to the powder size needed.  The game engine really does not go beyond 50-100meters. Your suggestions offers good compensation for the lack of accuracy at range most snipers DO have

[-CM-NineFingers]

10 minutes ago, Xardis said:

I disagree with the idea that you lose combo when you stop aiming down. Make it not apply to shots without aiming and the Harkonar Scope to give you one more combo point for headshots and 1 free miss for every 15s or 20 combo points.

That could work too. My point was sniper combo is conter-intuitive, and that it needs a rework. However, I still think losing the sniper combo once you stop aiming is a good measure. Makes a standing sniper more powerful the longer he is aiming, and thus makes sniper users look for a good place to snipe on enemies while being mostly safe, instead of just shooting at anything that comes close from ground level. I also find easier to repurpose harkonar scope to a out of sights combo duration mod instead of timegating it or using it to enhance the combo multiplier.

[lukinu_u]

20 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Scope multipliers : These are a bad thing for snipers. The game should not reward you for shooting with a x10 zoom. Either make this bonus apply all the time you're scoped regardless of level, or link it to distance to target and remove the cap. If you manage to hit something at 1000m, you well deserve a 100% extra damage. a 1% damage increase for every 10 meters, for example, would encourage using snipers from afar, instead of zooming at max on the grineer 2m away. This way, you get a good reason to use the zoom on the snipers, and rewarded for your skill. Since there isn't that much open space on warframe, a minimum cap would be appreciated, to not force us to flee each combat in order to get the scope bonus.

Damages depending on distant would force you to play sniper like real sniper but I'm not sure it's a good thing in warframe. How you said, the map are not made for sniper and this change would just be a nerf if the combo system is replaced by this.

21 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Sniper combo counter : While this is a nice feature, it's conter-intuitive. The combo counter forces you to shoot quickly, but also penalises you for missing a shot. There's a couple things, however, that could make this great. For one, the time cap could be removed, and instead we lose the combo when we stop aiming with the scope. Second, the combo should not dissapear on a missed shot, but take away an amount -maybe equal to the magazine size of the weapon- of shots from the combo. That would, at the same time, reward players for careful aim and accuracy, and be more forgiving about someone missing a shot. the mod Harkonar Scope could be turned into something that lets you keep the combo counter for a set amount of time even when you stop actively aiming, leting you take a better position and keep shooting.

I just thing missed shot should not reset the counter, especially because multishot bullet reset the counter if you OS your target with the first bullet.
Maybe make the timer decrease 2 time slower while aiming but not more changes.

21 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Scope shake : Why do snipers shake that much when all other weapons have perfect aim, always, without hesitation, like if a statue was holding that weapon? But when you grab a sniper, the scope will shake, more noticeably when you max the zoom. Why do warframes have pinpoint accuracy, but have a stroke when they aim with a sniper? This thing needs a tweak.

Of course, this is pretty bad and not lore friendly because in real life, these movment are caused breathing, and warframe dont breath...

21 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

They are goddamn snipers! : You shoot a cucumber-sized bullet into a grineer, and it does nothing. you shoot an arrow, and you hit the grineer, the wall behind it and the grineer behind that wall. What do I mean with this? Since bows took the punch through, let snipers have a greater headshot multiplier. A x3 headshot damage should be enough to make you aim for the head. Shots to the body should cause a knockback, for two reasons: the amount of force a sniper rounds should carry, and because that knockback will move the target out of sights, making you want to hit the head more for a fast elimination. This adds at the same time a good thing (you can knockback a heavy unit, for example a bombard, and prevent it from shooting), and a bad thing (if you hit the body, you will have to adjust your aim, since a second shot in the same spot would hit nothing)

Some sniper have innate punch through (Lanka and both Snipetron) but they all should have this.
The forced impact proc (knockback) for each sniper shot may be a good idea since sniper have slow firerate, so it wouldn't be too strong.

21 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Currently, our best sniper is not even a sniper: the ferrox. With a good base damage, perfect accuracy regardless of aiming, great crit chance and damage, it's ahead of any sniper currently in the game. Please, make snipers the great weapons they can be!

Lanka is the best sniper and one of the strongest weapon in the game. With the right build, it can easily one-shot almost anything if at least one bullet proc gas status, even the most armored Grineers.

[nameomnz]

I think sniper riffles need a guaranteed crit on headshot. also stack with a normal crit to red crit on top of it.

Maybe have something that give sniper an ability to see through wall along with innate punchthrough.

Buff snipertron/vandal firerate+reload speed and give lanka more punchthrough

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

• Damages depending on distant would force you to play sniper like real sniper but I'm not sure it's a good thing in warframe. How you said, the map are not made for sniper and this change would just be a nerf if the combo system is replaced by this.

 

• I just thing missed shot should not reset the counter, especially because multishot bullet reset the counter if you OS your target with the first bullet. Maybe make the timer decrease 2 time slower while aiming but not more changes.

 

• Of course, this is pretty bad and not lore friendly because in real life, these movment are caused breathing, and warframe dont breath...

 

• Some sniper have innate punch through (Lanka and both Snipetron) but they all should have this.

 

• The forced impact proc (knockback) for each sniper shot may be a good idea since sniper have slow firerate, so it wouldn't be too strong.

 

• Lanka is the best sniper and one of the strongest weapon in the game. With the right build, it can easily one-shot almost anything if at least one bullet proc gas status, even the most armored Grineers.

That's why I added having a minimum bonus for closer distances could be a good thing. That bonus should be the same a max scoped sniper has right now.

I mantain my opinion about how snipers should rely on accuracy, so I thing missing shots should lower the counter, but not remove it. making the timer decrease twice as slower would just implement harkonar scope into all snipers, something I'm not passionate about. The sniper combo needs a better rework in my opinion.

we agree on this, so nothing to say.

Snipers with innate punch through are great, but bows have innate punch thru. To avoid treading on them, snipers should have a different perk, I think.

Nothing to say here again.

Lanka might have a great damage and status, but ferrox has a perfectly steady aim, lower charge time, fast reload and is hitscan. The crits are also amazing. It also has innate punch thru, although not at lanka levels.

[Xardis]

18 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

That could work too. My point was sniper combo is conter-intuitive, and that it needs a rework. However, I still think losing the sniper combo once you stop aiming is a good measure. Makes a standing sniper more powerful the longer he is aiming, and thus makes sniper users look for a good place to snipe on enemies while being mostly safe, instead of just shooting at anything that comes close from ground level. I also find easier to repurpose harkonar scope to a out of sights combo duration mod instead of timegating it or using it to enhance the combo multiplier.

My issue with Harkonar Scope is that it is a bandaid mod. On most weapons now, combo is impossible to maintain coz you lose it when you reload, the duration is so low. If you were to lose it completly when you dont aim and only that mod fixes it, the part of it being bandaid is not fixed.

16 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Of course, this is pretty bad and not lore friendly because in real life, these movment are caused breathing, and warframe dont breath...

Well, we do have to use life support in survival, it is mostly agreed that human inside the frame is alive but has lost its own will. But I wont get into here to not derail the topic. The breathing is still a thing from lore standpoint, but as we can see warframes are far more stronger, faster, durable and accurate than humans. My point is that with those things considered, breathing from the lore standpoint shouldnt affect the aim at all, mostly coz of far greater control of movement that warframes provide.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Xardis

[-CM-NineFingers]

13 minutes ago, nameomnz said:

I think sniper riffles need a guaranteed crit on headshot. also stack with a normal crit to red crit on top of it.

Maybe have something that give sniper an ability to see through wall along with innate punchthrough.

Buff snipertron/vandal firerate+reload speed and give lanka more punchthrough

Headshots already have an innate damage multiplier, snipers would only need an innate multiplier to it. Adding crits to it would make crit damage mods indispensable for a good build, and I don't want snipers to be locked into that.

the punch and the see thru walls is a gimmick for an specific weapon that no sniper should have, ever. It would devalue the weapon that has it, and wouldn't be that good for snipers.

More punch for the lanka? I don't recall needing to penetrate a grineer galleon from the outside, bro.

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 minutes ago, Xardis said:

Well, we do have to use life support in survival, it is mostly agreed that human inside the frame is alive but has lost its own will. But I wont get into here to not derail the topic. The breathing is still a thing from lore standpoint, but as we can see warframes are far more stronger, faster, durable and accurate than human. My point is that with thise things considered, breathing from the lore standpoint shouldnt affect the aim at all, mostly coz of far greater control of movement that warframes provide.

Need to nitpick a thing, there's no human inside the frames, just a mass of infested flesh. I agree on everything else.

[Bobtm]

I've got a bit of mixed feelings regarding these prospective changes, some I like, others I'm not so keen on.

50 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

• Scope shake : Why do snipers shake that much when all other weapons have perfect aim, always, without hesitation, like if a statue was holding that weapon? But when you grab a sniper, the scope will shake, more noticeably when you max the zoom. Why do warframes have pinpoint accuracy, but have a stroke when they aim with a sniper? This thing needs a tweak.

 

• They are goddamn snipers! : You shoot a cucumber-sized bullet into a grineer, and it does nothing. you shoot an arrow, and you hit the grineer, the wall behind it and the grineer behind that wall. What do I mean with this? Since bows took the punch through, let snipers have a greater headshot multiplier. A x3 headshot damage should be enough to make you aim for the head. Shots to the body should cause a knockback, for two reasons: the amount of force a sniper rounds should carry, and because that knockback will move the target out of sights, making you want to hit the head more for a fast elimination. This adds at the same time a good thing (you can knockback a heavy unit, for example a bombard, and prevent it from shooting), and a bad thing (if you hit the body, you will have to adjust your aim, since a second shot in the same spot would hit nothing)

 

I agree completely with the first of these two points, and really like the idea of the second point.  Folks are often too quick to suggest things that cause overlap between bows and snipers, but your idea doesn't cause that issue at all.  It's a cool idea to boot so that works out even more.  Just to tack on another point;  Snipers shouldn't have reduced accuracy while hip firing either, since they are already a cumbersome choice for close encounters and don't need that additional drawback.

53 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

• Scope multipliers : These are a bad thing for snipers. The game should not reward you for shooting with a x10 zoom. Either make this bonus apply all the time you're scoped regardless of level, or link it to distance to target and remove the cap. If you manage to hit something at 1000m, you well deserve a 100% extra damage. a 1% damage increase for every 10 meters, for example, would encourage using snipers from afar, instead of zooming at max on the grineer 2m away. This way, you get a good reason to use the zoom on the snipers, and rewarded for your skill. Since there isn't that much open space on warframe, a minimum cap would be appreciated, to not force us to flee each combat in order to get the scope bonus.

 

• Sniper combo counter : While this is a nice feature, it's conter-intuitive. The combo counter forces you to shoot quickly, but also penalises you for missing a shot. There's a couple things, however, that could make this great. For one, the time cap could be removed, and instead we lose the combo when we stop aiming with the scope. Second, the combo should not dissapear on a missed shot, but take away an amount -maybe equal to the magazine size of the weapon- of shots from the combo. That would, at the same time, reward players for careful aim and accuracy, and be more forgiving about someone missing a shot. the mod Harkonar Scope could be turned into something that lets you keep the combo counter for a set amount of time even when you stop actively aiming, leting you take a better position and keep shooting.

 

These are the ideas I'm a bit iffy on however.  The scope bonuses are something I enjoy because they reward aiming/using the scope without directly imposing a disadvantage to not using the scope (hip firing accuracy just needs to be accuate).  This offers a trade-off of sorts.  Nothing stops someone from just using the scope at close range aside the loss of wider vision if they want to use the scope bonus in close.  Meanwhile, Warframe is by large not a game with lots of distance or open maps.  Having shots tied to distance would actually be a larger limitation on the snipers than using the scope is currently, unless the minimum cap on distance is so forgiving that it is essentially an always on trait instead of a variable benefit.

I'm also not in agreement with the combo counter changes completely, because having different combo limits are part of what let the snipers themselves differ from one another.  The Vectis may not gain near as much as fast, but it can fairly easily maintain combo right now.  The Rubico however gains incredibly fast, but also can't normally maintain its combo past its own reload.  I however do agree that deleting the entire combo in one go is a bit excessive from both the timeout and the miss.  I like the idea of missed shots subtracting 1 from the combo.  And I'd be fine with seeing the combo begin to drain at a set rate of let's say 3 points per second after the timer has expired.

Having the combo lost when a player stops aiming would be a much more arduous limiter on the weapon class than losing it based on time, in my opinion.  Then Harkonar Scope could be changed slightly to let it do what it does now, in addition to allowing hip fire shots to benefit from and maintain the combo bonus.

[-CM-NineFingers]

3 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

I'm also not in agreement with the combo counter changes completely, because having different combo limits are part of what let the snipers themselves differ from one another.  The Vectis may not gain near as much as fast, but it can fairly easily maintain combo right now.  The Rubico however gains incredibly fast, but also can't normally maintain its combo past its own reload.  I however do agree that deleting the entire combo in one go is a bit excessive from both the timeout and the miss.  I like the idea of missed shots subtracting 1 from the combo.  And I'd be fine with seeing the combo begin to drain at a set rate of let's say 3 points per second after the timer has expired.

Having the combo lost when a player stops aiming would be a much more arduous limiter on the weapon class than losing it based on time, in my opinion.  Then Harkonar Scope could be changed slightly to let it do what it does now, in addition to allowing hip fire shots to benefit from and maintain the combo bonus.

Maybe I should be more specific on the distance bonus and the combo rework.

For the distance: any shot under 200m would keep the current bonus from the maxed scope of the weapon. For example, vulkar would have a 20% bonus damage scoped under 200m, and over 200m, this bonus would get higher with the distance.

For the combo: The combo counter would be infinite while scoped, and start the timer when you scope out. this timer would be stopped only when you aim and shoot again. Basically, being always scoped would make the counter keep growing, and it will onyl start to fade when you stop aiming actively.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on my first post, I apologise for that.

[nameomnz]

27 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Headshots already have an innate damage multiplier, snipers would only need an innate multiplier to it. Adding crits to it would make crit damage mods indispensable for a good build, and I don't want snipers to be locked into that.

the punch and the see thru walls is a gimmick for an specific weapon that no sniper should have, ever. It would devalue the weapon that has it, and wouldn't be that good for snipers.

More punch for the lanka? I don't recall needing to penetrate a grineer galleon from the outside, bro.

What I'm trying to say it's that on headshot will have innate crit also stack with the actual critchance of the sniper to allow them to redcrit even better with point strike to have consistence redcrit. It's painful to see a white number on headshot you know.

Hey bro look at the zenith's secondary fire even know It's nor better than some sniper But It's has infinite punch+ability to see through wall to utilize that infinite punchthrough. Just imagine in a big room where you have some spot to camp, That's what sniper is good at.

Edited May 29, 2017 by nameomnz

[(PSN)DBR87]

I know a lot of people say this but it needs to be repeated. All Sniper Rifles should have at base at least 1 meter of punch through. Lanka and Snipetron can keep their values, but they should all penetrate at least 1 meter. That being said a head shot multiplier for snipers would be great. Not everyone will use them, but more people would.

I like scope multipliers. For your damage bonus over distance thing, real life works oppositely. Penetration diminishes with distance to the target. But I know Warframe isn't real life. Still, if I want my damage bonus I rather not run away from the target when I could just make their whole head take up my entire sight picture.

I like the part of your Combo Counter idea where you lose it when you un scope. That's about it. I like that some Sniper Rifles gain combo faster than others and I think that should stay. I don't like that your combo drops in 2 seconds on most of them. I agree the time limit should go away. I do think missing should drop the combo but...eh. I do like the suggestion the combo would drop after a certain amount of time when un scoped.

If we are being honest, Warframes don't give weapons laser accuracy. Lex Prime and Supra are examples of how all the muscle in the world isn't going to stop recoil and shot spread. But scope sway is dumb. Warframes don't breath. It was a nerf added during the sniper rework and it needs to go away, along with hip fire accuracy being crap. Sure, snipers can have hard kick after a shot, but scope sway is dumb.

[Bizzaro21]

I agree, but I think they should get punch through, I mean this is a damn big bullet you're firing, why can't it penetrate what a blunt arrow (cernos) can? make no sense... besides that, every game I've played with snipers has punch through on them, and the space ninja that lives billions of years ahead of us now doesn't have a sniper that can out-punch a bow that is no different from the ones used hundreds of years ago from our time?

[-CM-NineFingers]

Just now, Bizzaro21 said:

I agree, but I think they should get punch through, I mean this is a damn big bullet you're firing, why can't it penetrate what a blunt arrow (cernos) can? make no sense... besides that, every game I've played with snipers has punch through on them, and the space ninja that lives billions of years ahead of us now doesn't have a sniper that can out-punch a bow that is no different from the ones used hundreds of years ago from our time?

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

I know a lot of people say this but it needs to be repeated. All Sniper Rifles should have at base at least 1 meter of punch through. Lanka and Snipetron can keep their values, but they should all penetrate at least 1 meter. That being said a head shot multiplier for snipers would be great. Not everyone will use them, but more people would.

[...]For your damage bonus over distance thing, real life works oppositely. Penetration diminishes with distance to the target. But I know Warframe isn't real life.

 

As I already stated, bows are the weapons that have punch through, and overshadowing it with snipers is not a good thing. While it would make sense, I totall agree on that, I think snipers should have something different from bows, and given that these are weapons you're suposed to aim well, the x3 multiplier on headshots would be better in my opinion.

DBR87 I know how ballistics work, It's not meant to emulate real life. It's just a means to benefit longer distance shots. Under 200m, all snipers should have the max zoom bonus when aimed, but over that distance you gain an extra for the mad MLG skillz required, just that.

[Bizzaro21]

17 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

As I already stated, bows are the weapons that have punch through, and overshadowing it with snipers is not a good thing. While it would make sense, I totall agree on that, I think snipers should have something different from bows, and given that these are weapons you're suposed to aim well, the x3 multiplier on headshots would be better in my opinion.

not overshadowing, giving snipers what they are due, bows have their own style and advantages, snipers should be single shot killers, aiming at head level and kill a group of enemies at once is my idea of using a sniper, bows' advantage would be silence and not having to scope, that's my perspective at least, also snipers do need it, regardless of bows being overshadowed, I see they classify as almost same type, both are single target, both are hard and rewarding to use (well, should be in case of snipers) and both are for distant gameplay not rushing in the mess

[Bobtm]

56 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Maybe I should be more specific on the distance bonus and the combo rework.

For the distance: any shot under 200m would keep the current bonus from the maxed scope of the weapon. For example, vulkar would have a 20% bonus damage scoped under 200m, and over 200m, this bonus would get higher with the distance.

For the combo: The combo counter would be infinite while scoped, and start the timer when you scope out. this timer would be stopped only when you aim and shoot again. Basically, being always scoped would make the counter keep growing, and it will onyl start to fade when you stop aiming actively.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on my first post, I apologise for that.

There's no need to apologize about simple misunderstandings.  Sometimes getting whole points across in plain text can be tricky.

Anyways, with that clarification, I think I tend to agree with both points overall rather than disagreeing on those two.

[-CM-NineFingers]

21 minutes ago, Bizzaro21 said:

aiming at head level and kill a group of enemies at once is my idea of using a sniper, bows' advantage would be silence and not having to scope, that's my perspective at least

If snipers get the punch through, then what's the point of using a bow? Also, lack of scope is not an advantage. Why would you use a bow if snipers already did all that, plus being hitscan and perfectly accurate, with a good zoom, without bullet drop, and mostly without a charge time?

Reworking snipers can't tread on other weapons. Killing groups of enemies? Use gas or an explosive launcher, that's not what snipers are for. They are single target, heavy hitting, slow firing guns, and that's what they should be.

[Bizzaro21]

9 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

If snipers get the punch through, then what's the point of using a bow? Also, lack of scope is not an advantage. Why would you use a bow if snipers already did all that, plus being hitscan and perfectly accurate, with a good zoom, without bullet drop, and mostly without a charge time?

Reworking snipers can't tread on other weapons. Killing groups of enemies? Use gas or an explosive launcher, that's not what snipers are for. They are single target, heavy hitting, slow firing guns, and that's what they should be.

alright, not having to scope makes them more reliable in close ranges, when u get some enemy hit you from the back u can shoot them more easily, a sniper wont help u there, besides, bows have more damage, lets not forget this, dread outperforms all my snipers except lanka because it also has the crit that makes dread stand out, but it also has its own downsides that dread hasnt got, by giving snipers punch through, you are not shadowing bows, you're lighting snipers, they still will be inferior damage wise, just less painful to use, in a game such as wf, where u get 10 enemies by the time you've killed one, it would be outright stupid to use a single target weapon that fires slow and isnt even that lethal, if it had punch through, at least I could shoot behind walls or multiple enemies at once like bows do

I know they are supposed to be that, and that this is the explosive's job, I wasnt accurate enough in my expression, i apologize, I meant a group of enemies lined up, but on a side note, only slow sniper here is lanka... vulkar, vectis and rubico fire relatively fast for their class, which i'm not against at all, but I think it is better to fire slowly but make it worth my time than rain bullets that barely hurt, that's an SMG or assault rifle's job

Edited May 29, 2017 by Bizzaro21

[-CM-NineFingers]

27 minutes ago, Bizzaro21 said:

alright, not having to scope makes them more reliable in close ranges, when u get some enemy hit you from the back u can shoot them more easily, a sniper wont help u there, besides, bows have more damage, lets not forget this, dread outperforms all my snipers except lanka because it also has the crit that makes dread stand out, but it also has its own downsides that dread hasnt got, by giving snipers punch through, you are not shadowing bows, you're lighting snipers, they still will be inferior damage wise, just less painful to use, in a game such as wf, where u get 10 enemies by the time you've killed one, it would be outright stupid to use a single target weapon that fires slow and isnt even that lethal, if it had punch through, at least I could shoot behind walls or multiple enemies at once like bows do

I know they are supposed to be that, and that this is the explosive's job, I wasnt accurate enough in my expression, i apologize, I meant a group of enemies lined up, but on a side note, only slow sniper here is lanka... vulkar, vectis and rubico fire relatively fast for their class, which i'm not against at all, but I think it is better to fire slowly but make it worth my time than rain bullets that barely hurt, that's an SMG or assault rifle's job

As someone else said, we must face that bows in warframe are basically railguns. They are not accelerated by a string, but with some mumbo jumbo laser space magic. Snipers however, are not, and they should never act lke bows. They are different weapons, in design and utility, and they need to fill a different role. the bow is for low to medium range, fast to aim, forgiving if you miss (can you use it at longer range? sure, if you guess the arrow drop and enemy movement). Snipers are for mid-long range, mostly hitscan hard hitting weapons that are clunky to use at close quarters.

It's ok for bows to have lots of penetration, but snipers should have at max 50cm of punch thru to not step on bows, and add the damage multiplier on headshots because that's what you should be doing with them.

[nameomnz]

5 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

As someone else said, we must face that bows in warframe are basically railguns. They are not accelerated by a string, but with some mumbo jumbo laser space magic. Snipers however, are not, and they should never act lke bows. They are different weapons, in design and utility, and they need to fill a different role. the bow is for low to medium range, fast to aim, forgiving if you miss (can you use it at longer range? sure, if you guess the arrow drop and enemy movement). Snipers are for mid-long range, mostly hitscan hard hitting weapons that are clunky to use at close quarters.

It's ok for bows to have lots of penetration, but snipers should have at max 50cm of punch thru to not step on bows, and add the damage multiplier on headshots because that's what you should be doing with them.

Hitscan vs Projectile 

Hitscan punchthrough in some case can be worse than Projectile punchthrough.

With bow you just need to aim at their general direction and the punchthrough will do it's job for you

With sniper you need to line up the enemy and make sure they are on the same line.