Why There Will be No Veterans In a Year Time (read orig. post)

[Iccotak]

@AperoBeltaTwo

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

From Software fans would eat you alive for this. Souls series created an incredible narrative and spawned a whole media subculture with just creative item descriptions.

Dark Souls tells a complete story with the lore it puts in but keeps it purposefully vague for the player to figure things out.
Warframes world lore is vague for the same reason Destiny 1 was vague. Because there's not a whole lot in the actual game. Most lore is actually with the developers.
But Both games seek to tell an epic story. Its just one is in Alpha/Beta Hell and the other got cut up to bits.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Story Quests =/= Quality gameplay 

 Look,I don't know how many times I have to say that I agree with this statement and that DE should do story AFTER they do everything else.
I have sad it multiple times in replies to you but you either don't see it or ignore it.

pg 13. Quote:
"BUT "creative item descriptions" sounds like another placeholder for quality Story content. Much like how farming is a placeholder for quality gameplay content." 
I separated story and gameplay, in the sentence you partially quoted.

In a separate thread when you asked if I think Story is the only quality content in games I replied:
"Let me make this clear. I would Prefer that DE works on polishing and improving the gameplay mechanics and level design one planet at a time before they put a story in.
That is what I mean by quality content.
I can ignore all the story in DOOM (2016) but I still have quality and polished level design and gameplay. (The Lore is cool though)
Overwatch is such a big success, not just because it was Blizzard and their characters, but because they provided a highly polished product."

That Being said, I am not against Story but Warframe needs a good Foundation First before they put tidbits of an epic campaign into the game.
I will say it AGAIN; If DE really wants to do a proper story, then they should Prioritize polish and improve gameplay more in order to make a better foundation that the story can be on.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There's a whole lot of story-driven games with incredibly dumb narratives that influence and damage the overall fine gameplay. And in case of warframe the quests DE create are really-really nothing special.

That is your opinion which you are free to have. But there are a lot of people who like the story and want to see DE continue in this direction. 
Myself included (but I want the foundation to be solid before they slap on stories and more features)
I stick with the game not only because I enjoy some of the gameplay but also because I see the potential of their story and I really like their choices for inspiration.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

but ffs it's a HORDE SHOOTER WITH SPACE MAGIC AND NINJAS. THAT'S AWESOME. That's something that nobody has. That's the strenght of this game.

Yeah, Destiny is a horde shooter with space magic and gods but you don't see them holding back on story.
Seriously, gameplay wise, Warframe is not that special either compared to the what Destiny 2 and/or Anthem could be.  
 

47 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Because there is no gameplay otherwise. That's the whole point of this thread.

What do you think I have been saying the whole time in the "Boring Thread"?

 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

DE can't handle triple A, and I never heard them aiming at that level.

In all seriousness, have you heard of Dark Sector?
Dark Sector was a game idea they initially had a while ago that really went out there in both Gameplay and Story.
They had a Triple A scope in mind for it. But Publishers forced them to change it to a Sc-fi/Horror/Cold War game. A Shadow and a Husk of what they wanted to make.

So they tried again later when they had more money and tried the F2P model because that industry seemed to be more welcoming of creativity.
They went to several Publishers but they all told them that, although the vision for the game was beautiful, it would fail. 
Digital Extremes decided to turn to the public for support.

They started a Kick Starter and promised people who contributed a certain amount would get the Founders Pack, which included Excalibur Prime, Skana Prime, Lato Prime, and other accessories.
Using the initial funding they received they launched the game as "Open Beta". Using funds from future purchases in their game (like Prime Access) to fund continued development. 

Warframe is their baby and they have a Triple A scope in mind for the title.
Problem being that they need to solidify the foundation gameplay first before they add all these features and story bits.

But they shouldn't abandon a Story Campaign altogether.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Iccotak

[AperoBeltaTwo]

20 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Dark Souls tells a complete story with the lore it puts in but keeps it purposefully vague for the player to figure things out.
Warframes world lore is vague for the same reason Destiny 1 was vague. Because there's not a whole lot in the actual game. Most lore is actually with the developers.
But Both games seek to tell an epic story. Its just one is in Alpha/Beta Hell and the other got cut up to bits.

 Each Souls game has a finished narrative that doesn't require other games to enjoy or understand. They have reaccuring characters and themes, but it's enough to play one Souls game (with the exception of DS 2 - f@ck that game) to have a grasp on the world. Ofc you would have to piece together hundreds of item descriptions, but that's a game of its own, as I said.
 This type of storytelling would actually fit Warframe as a game way better than inconsequential story quests we have in the game.
 You keep mentioning that Warframe is unfinished, but that's just not true. Warframe is as finished and as polished as it would ever be. Yes, I mean that. Adding more quests to the game at this point is like adding a fifth wheel to a wagon. This game wasn't originally designed with quests in mind - that's why they don't work, that's why DE has to create new mechanics every time to justify shoving another pointless piece into the game. Linear quests are just not good for worldbuilding, unless there's a lot of them and a lot in them.

21 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

 Look,I don't know how many times I have to say that I agree with this statement and that DE should do story AFTER they do everything else.
I have sad it multiple times in replies to you but you either don't see it or ignore it.

 Ok, I'll rephrase it. A game doesn't have to have a story to be good. You keep pushing with "Warframe needs more quests", but to fit quests into the game organically would require reworking the whole thing. DE can't afford that - and I've said is just as many times. Warframe isn't at a stage of development where major changes like huge storylines could ever occur. It's too late for that and they don't have resources to pull that off in the first place - not four years ago, nor today. It's just unrealistic.

37 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

"BUT "creative item descriptions" sounds like another placeholder for quality Story content. Much like how farming is a placeholder for quality gameplay content." 
I separated story and gameplay, in the sentence you partially quoted.

49 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

That is your opinion which you are free to have. But there are a lot of people who like the story and want to see DE continue in this direction. 
Myself included (but I want the foundation to be solid before they slap on stories and more features)
I stick with the game not only because I enjoy some of the gameplay but also because I see the potential of their story and I really like their choices for inspiration.

*sigh*
Warframe is not a triple A single player story driven game.
Warframe is a coop horde shooter with space magic.

 Adding more quests and focusing on story development is like trying to make a game of one genre into a game of another genre. I feel like a broken record honestly. This is a game about killing thousands of dumb AI enemies. This doesn't make it a worse game, nor does it make it an incomplete game - it's just a different kind of game. Warframe is not a story-driven game nor will it ever be - it's not a matter of your taste or my taste, it's an empiric truth. Adding more quests to this game will at most add 20-30 hours of gameplay. That's it. But to do that would require a complete rework of everything and complete shut down on mechanical updates, since DE don't have enough manpower to do both.

52 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

In all seriousness, have you heard of Dark Sector?
Dark Sector was a game idea they initially had a while ago that really went out there in both Gameplay and Story.
They had a Triple A scope in mind for it. But Publishers forced them to change it to a Sc-fi/Horror/Cold War game. A Shadow and a Husk of what they wanted to make.

That only proves my point. Also, Dark Sector was initially built as a single-player story-driven game as far as I know. Despite reused assets, warframe is a different game...ugh ...how many times did I say that already? You can't compare a single-player story driven game with an online coop grindy game - you can't convert one into another either.

54 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

So they tried again later when they had more money and tried the F2P model because that industry seemed to be more welcoming of creativity.
They went to several Publishers but they all told them that, although the vision for the game was beautiful, it would fail. 
Digital Extremes decided to turn to the public for support.

They started a Kick Starter and promised people who contributed a certain amount would get the Founders Pack, which included Excalibur Prime, Skana Prime, Lato Prime, and other accessories.
Using the initial funding they received they launched the game as "Open Beta". Using funds from future purchases in their game (like Prime Access) to fund continued development. 

Warframe is their baby and they have a Triple A scope in mind for the title.
Problem being that they need to solidify the foundation gameplay first before they add all these features and story bits.

You talk about foundation, but there is no foundation for the quests here. There is a foundation for a grindy coop shooter... I need to stop repeating myself. Scope doesn't mean anything if you're in development already and have no idea how to get from point A to your scope - especially at the point when it's pretty much impossible to do. Story-driven Warframe didn't happen - that's also an empirical truth. And if DE (and the more vocal members of the community) would keep pushing on more quests without understanding the consequences for the game - it still won't happen, but it will break the game completely.

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

But they shouldn't NOT put in a Story Campaign altogether.

No campaign. Please. It's like putting a face on a DS character and calling him Billy, and making him talk in cutscenes.

[Iccotak]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Ofc you would have to piece together hundreds of item descriptions, but that's a game of its own, as I said.

That is exactly what I said. 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You keep mentioning that Warframe is unfinished, but that's just not true. Warframe is as finished and as polished as it would ever be. Yes, I mean that. Adding more quests to the game at this point is like adding a fifth wheel to a wagon. This game wasn't originally designed with quests in mind

That is plain wrong. Period.
Opinions aside. That is a factually wrong statement.
DE has said repeatedly that this is not a finished game, they came out the gate that way. Hence the Beta tag.
By any game standard, whether F2P or B2P, this game is practically in Alpha.
The game was absolutely made with quests as an eventuality in mind. BUT Again, you don't put quests and story into a game that does not have solid core gameplay and level design nailed down. Which It Doesn't.
That is why story quests weren't in at the beginning.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You keep pushing with "Warframe needs more quests", but to fit quests into the game organically would require reworking the whole thing.

A. No, I'm Not. Have you been reading what I said? You Feel like broken record? I am the broken Record. I said gameplay content first, then story. Polish first.
B. No they don't need to rework everything around story. We have already seen that even tiny small side quests work in the game.
They just need to flesh out the already existing gameplay mechanics and level design FIRST. 

 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

This is a game about killing thousands of dumb AI enemies. This doesn't make it a worse game, nor does it make it an incomplete game - it's just a different kind of game. Warframe is not a story-driven game nor will it ever be - it's not a matter of your taste or my taste, it's an empiric truth.

What Do You Think Destiny Does? Or What Anthem will do? Warframe is not unique in the online co-op horde shooter/combat. Story and Horde Combat games are NOT separate genres. They are not exclusive. 
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You can't compare a single-player story driven game with an online coop grindy game - you can't convert one into another either.

Borderlands, Destiny or even older; Diablo 2 and even Diablo 3.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You talk about foundation, but there is no foundation for the quests here.

Yes there is. DE just needs to refine and polish the gameplay first before they keep adding story and features.

You And I Are LITERALLY AGREEING That Gameplay Should Come FIRST.
Our only disagreements are; 
1. I think a story campaign belongs in Warframe. (More practically, I know that DE is going to do it anyway so I talk about better ways of implementing it.)
2. I don't consider the game a complete product (and neither does DE for that matter)

Edited June 29, 2017 by Iccotak

[Iccotak]

@AperoBeltaTwo

You keep seeming to think that because Warframe lacks a campaign story I therefore consider it an incomplete product.
Which is what I have trying to correct you on.

Story aside. When I take a look at the games' Features, Gameplay, Level design, What DE has gotten done in the Solar Map, etc. I don't consider it a complete product.
By any other game standard I would say that this game needs another 2-3 years of intensive development because of how many gaps there are and how much the game is lacking. 

I also look at what I know DE is trying to accomplish and I can say that this is not a complete product. With all the different features they try implementing it's pretty obvious.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Iccotak

[Iccotak]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 You keep mentioning that Warframe is unfinished, but that's just not true. Warframe is as finished and as polished as it would ever be. Yes, I mean that.

I can understand why you would think this way if you started playing in 2016.
If you started in 2013 and didn't play again until 2016 or 2017, Warframe would almost seem like a completely different game with the amount of improvements, changes, and additions.

Warframe is ever changing, so to say that this is as good as its going to get or this is the how it is always going to be is simply false.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

That is exactly what I said. 

So why have a quest storyline, when most of Warframe's narrative goals could be achieved through other (and way more resource-efficient) means? 

12 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

DE has said repeatedly that this is not a finished game, they came out the gate that way. Hence the Beta tag.

Oh, please. Not this again. Why would you even believe that? 

12 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

By any game standard, whether F2P or B2P, this game is practically in Alpha.

Oh, God. I'll bring the meme again if you keep this on. Warframe is four years in beta! It's a Beta in name only. It will NEVER be released. You can't cut DE this much slack just on the basis of the Beta tag. 

19 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

The game was absolutely made with quests as an eventuality in mind. BUT Again, you don't put quests and story into a game that does not have solid core gameplay and level design nailed down. Which It Doesn't.

I GET IT. I KNOW WHAT'S THE PROBLEM! You expect too much out of Warframe development. You look at the game and see what it could have been with an unlimited budget and unlimited dedication from the devs. But Warframe development is the definition of a compromise upon compromise to please as wide an audience as possible. It's not the kind of game you imagine it to be. DE have no vision like that - at least it definitely doesn't feel like they do. These are guys that don't play their own game, m8. Don't get your hopes too high. And they most definitely don't have an infinite budget.

27 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

A. No, I'm Not. Have you been reading what I said? You Feel like broken record? I am the broken Record. I said gameplay content first, then story. Polish first.

I cracked on this one. xD

32 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

B. No they don't need to rework everything around story. We have already seen that even tiny small side quests work in the game.
They just need to flesh out the already existing gameplay mechanics and level design FIRST. 

 Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from now. Just look at the game in the matter of tendencies. Don't look at Warframe through the scope of how you think it should be - think from the point where it is right now. And try to sequence steps (one by one) to a vision you have in your head. You'll see how much work it is. And now compare the dedication required to achieve that vision with the current state of Warframe. We're not getting there, m8. Never. Not with the current course of development. There will be no bright future release - what you see right now is what you get. This is release. It already happened. DE could only add little bits on top of the usual pile and make superficial adjustments to the structure. They can't add anything as massive as a storyline on each planet - it's just not feasible. Even updating descriptions would be a monumental work at this point in time. It should have been preplanned from the very beginning if it were to ever happen in the game. It wasn't. It's just something DE didn't do and it's too late now, when Warframe is four years as released to the public.

48 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

What Do You Think Destiny Does? Or What Anthem will do? Warframe is not unique in the online co-op horde shooter/combat. Story and Horde Combat games are NOT separate genres. They are not exclusive. 

Destiny is a branching corridor shooter with huge open sky bowel maps. Limited spawning mechanic and predesigned locations make it a completely different game. Destiny is actually a very good example for my point - the locations are designed for the quests. Quests were written before the game started and the whole thing is disjointed enough that you can add more quests without hurting the overall narrative. But Destiny was like that FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. It was designed to have a story on the main gameplay locations. Also, as far as I remember, Destiny stories are basically "Go there, kill someone, because reasons". It doesn't have much of a story.

 Yes, ofc, you could have a horde shooter with a storty, but you gotta preplan the story and its gameplay implications before you complete the game's development. That's what I'm saying basically.

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

Destiny or even older, Diablo 2 and Diablo 3.

 Diablo games are as mechanical as games ever gets. Story is there for a check. "Kill this bad guy, to kill this bad guy, to kill this ultimate bad guy" (repeate 4 times). Diablo is probably the first endless mission of all endless missions. It's pure gameplay. Story is entirely skippable. You don't play games like Diablo, or Crash Bandicoot for the story. The fact that it's there at all only means that developers were responsible enough to add it. And even then the level (objectives) layout was predetermined by the story written prior to the development (before it was released to the public, at the very least). You can't just write a storyline right now and put it on top of the current Warframe. It is theoretically possible, but, as I said, only by reworking the game from ground up with infinite money and dedication. They'll have to make a new game to do that, is what I'm saying. It's not gonna happen.

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

LITERALLY AGREEING

It's either quests or gameplay, m8. DE can't do both at this point. You either do one, or you do the other - because both are continuous processes that require a lot of time and effort. The only difference being that polishing gameplay is an immedeate possibility, and creating a worthwhile storyline in current Warframe is unlikely.

 But we'll probably won't get either of those anyway, since DE are focusing on development of disjointed individual questlines for new content advertisement. 
  

[AperoBeltaTwo]

38 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

I can understand why you would think this way if you started playing in 2016.
If you started in 2013 and didn't play again until 2016 or 2017, Warframe would almost seem like a completely different game with the amount of improvements, changes, and additions.

Warframe is ever changing, so to say that this is as good as its going to get or this is the how it is always going to be is simply false.

It didn't change that much. I've seen old Warframe. Modern warframe is a natural progression of all the old tendencies. The only really new element is the operator gameplay (not the operators themselves), and that's exactly why it feels so out of place.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

By any other game standard I would say that this game needs another 2-3 years of intensive development because of how many gaps there are and how much the game is lacking. 

There can be no "intence development" after the game is public. It's too late for that.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

On 06/01/2017 at 8:13 PM, JSharpie said:

Because people like to complain.

Off topic. Is your name a reference to what people do with sharpies in certaim exposing gifs?

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There can be no "intence development" after the game is public. It's too late for that.

Do you remember what this game was like back in 2013?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

8 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Do you remember what this game was like back in 2013?

I think I have a pretty good idea. All the differences are "added elements" that could be packed in a single big update each.
Parcour 2.0 - one update.
Damage 2.0 - one update.
Solar Map rework - one update (I guess two? updates over the span of three years)
Orbiter, Dojo, Landing craft loading screens - could all be added in the same update.
"One update" basically means "one step". The same way as:
Focus System - one update
Rivens and Kuva - one update.
Void 2.0 - one very bad update.

My point is, neither of those updates required massive structural changes to be made in the game just for the sake of their implementation.
 

Edited June 29, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

A two man team can strip enemy armor by 50%, remove all ranged weapons, slow enemies down to a crawl, and make them take 2 times damage. That's just two frames. As long as we can spam abilities without worrying about energy, there will be no endgame.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

5 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I think I have a pretty good idea. All the differences are "added elements" that could be packed in a single big update each.
Parcour 2.0 - one update.
Damage 2.0 - one update.
Solar Map rework - one update (I guess two? updates over the span of three years)
Orbiter, Dojo, Landing craft loading screens - could all be added in the same update.
"One update" basically means "one step". The same way as:
Focus System - one update
Rivens and Kuva - one update.
Void 2.0 - one very bad update.

My point is, neither of those updates required massive structural changes to be made in the game just for the sake of their implementation.
 

I can agree that void 2.0 was bad. My point is that mechanically, the game ia very different now. It has evolved. The complaining about content surge should be brought up with the community. The community is constantly asking for new content.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

A two man team can strip enemy armor by 50%, remove all ranged weapons, slow enemies down to a crawl, and make them take 2 times damage. That's just two frames. As long as we can spam abilities without worrying about energy, there will be no endgame.

You'll just have 4 useless abilities. That won't help, m8. And a lot of warframes rely on spammable abilities just to survive. Nerfing energy regen effectively would require a boat load of reworks without achieving anything - and only killing the action. At least that's what I think about it.

2 hours ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I can agree that void 2.0 was bad. My point is that mechanically, the game ia very different now. It has evolved. The complaining about content surge should be brought up with the community. The community is constantly asking for new content.

It has evolved but it didn't change much. With Iccotak we were discussing something that would have to flip the whole game over its head just to be added properly.

Also, when was the last time you heard anyone on the forums asking for a new warframe or a new gun? Maybe some vandal\wraith\prime variants of existing crappy guns, but nobody really asks DE for more gear - cause it's not needed at this point. Half of the weapons are mastery fodder anyway and standart warframe variants are useless with prime versions present in the game. We have so much gear nobody uses for one reason or another - including the new one, - that people don't really care much about new additions unless it's something really good or fun to use (which it usually isn'). 

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

25 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You'll just have 4 useless abilities. That won't help, m8. And a lot of warframes rely on spammable abilities just to survive. Nerfing energy regen effectively would require a boat load of reworks without achieving anything - and only killing the action. At least that's what I think about it.

It has evolved but it didn't change much. With Iccotak we were discussing something that would have to flip the whole game over its head just to be added properly.

Also, when was the last time you heard anyone on the forums asking for a new warframe or a new gun? Maybe some vandal\wraith\prime variants of existing crappy guns, but nobody really asks DE for more gear - cause it's not needed at this point. Half of the weapons are mastery fodder anyway and standart warframe variants are useless with prime versions present in the game. We have so much gear nobody uses for one reason or another - including the new one, - that people don't really care much about new additions unless it's something really good or fun to use (which it usually isn'). 

Every time a new one of something comes out discussions of what comes next come about within a week of the newest content. Hype from DE is reinforced by the community in forums and in region chat in game. It happens every time. I've seen it. Granted, i missed a lot. I do remember thinking there were already too many Frames when Saryn came out, which is a great Frame. The hype came, it went, by the end of the weekend everyone wanted to know what was next. Just the same when Octaviturd came out of the disco closet, it will happen with Hollow Harrow too.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

17 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Every time a new one of something comes out discussions of what comes next come about within a week of the newest content. Hype from DE is reinforced by the community in forums and in region chat in game. It happens every time. I've seen it. Granted, i missed a lot. I do remember thinking there were already too many Frames when Saryn came out, which is a great Frame. The hype came, it went, by the end of the weekend everyone wanted to know what was next. Just the same when Octaviturd came out of the disco closet, it will happen with Hollow Harrow too.

I guess that would be a matter of what comes first then - an egg or a chicken. DE create hype or hype forces DE to create more useless guns and warframes without an ingame implication. I personally think tho that current game build doesn't require more guns or warframes apart from prime access maybe (in truth nothing except crit based melee weapons is needed in this game atm). 

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

On 6/29/2017 at 3:19 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You'll just have 4 useless abilities. That won't help, m8. And a lot of warframes rely on spammable abilities just to survive. Nerfing energy regen effectively would require a boat load of reworks without achieving anything - and only killing the action. At least that's what I think about it.

I think it would change a lot. The problem is that warframe has gotten to a point (for better or worse) that it would be almost impossible to do any kind of rework that addresses ability spam.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

I think it would change a lot. The problem is that warframe has gotten to a point (for better or worse) that it would be almost impossible to do any kind of rework that addresses ability spam.

What's so bad about ability spam anyway? It's not so much the abilities that are a problem, but how to integrate them into the gameplay. Thing is, we have what we got and we gotta work with what we have. We have spamable abilities and we have spamable enemies. Balancing all this sh*t and stressing over that just wouldn't work in Warframe, cause there's cheese on both sides and there's nothing in human powers to fix that. So I say, embrace the cheese as long as it's not 24\7 invincibility or press "nuke" to win (or whatever octavia is).

Warframe already has more than enough "ingridients" in it. It's time to stop randomly adding and changing things, and start building something sensible out of what the game has to offer. That's why I focus on the structure so much in this thread. Warframe is just a pile of unmotivated game modes that don't build up to anything and don't incentivize mechanical exploration or time investment. It's not a matter of balance alone anymore - we have enemies that are as cheesy and dangerous as the player is (if not more dangerous), we just don't get to meet them in the game, so the player feels overpowered.    

Edited June 30, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Gsterman]

I honestly think that the one thing Warframe is lacking right now is a good endgame. I love this game but theres no replayability in the majority of content. More raids would be great and would put Warframe in a better spot.

On that note, raids need to have better rewards that aren't Sekharas and arcanes.

[Iccotak]

On 6/29/2017 at 11:19 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

With Iccotak we were discussing something that would have to flip the whole game over its head just to be added properly.

No it doesn't. They just need to take care of 

This First

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Warframe already has more than enough "ingridients" in it. It's time to stop randomly adding and changing things, and start building something sensible out of what the game has to offer.

^^THIS^^ is Exactly what I have been saying

 

Take care of gameplay features and mechanics First.

Story doesn't work in the game right now because we just have a pile of incomplete features. 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Iccotak

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 hours ago, Iccotak said:

^^THIS^^ is Exactly what I have been saying

I understand that.

 What I've been trying to say is that to build a storyline in a game, the game has to have been designed around it. And Warframe just isn't. At least not for a linear quest-based storyline. Too much new content would have to be created from scratch to fit in a proper storyline and this game is already released to the public - so you can't really change much fundamentally at this point. That's what I've been saying.

 It doesn't mean that your vision is bad, but it requires an actual tripleA title designed from scratch to pull this off, and Warframe is not a tripleA by a long shot. Even bigger studious like BioWare struggle with a vision similar to that, and those guys have thousands of staff organized and structured, each doing their small portion. DE just can't handle that kind of production and definitely wouldn't go that for a 4 year old game that's losing its edge. Doesn't mean it can't be done in a different  game tho.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 hours ago, Gsterman said:

I honestly think that the one thing Warframe is lacking right now is a good endgame. I love this game but theres no replayability in the majority of content. More raids would be great and would put Warframe in a better spot.

On that note, raids need to have better rewards that aren't Sekharas and arcanes.

also f@ck 24 hour timers.

[Iccotak]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

What I've been trying to say is that to build a storyline in a game, the game has to have been designed around it. And Warframe just isn't.

I disagree. And No it doesn't have to be designed around story. 
-DOOM certainly isn't. It has context for its setting but It's built around good gameplay mechanics. Yet has a story campaign. 
-Dark Souls is built around intensive combat, not the story. 
-Halo is built around combat, not story.
-Destiny is built around its Gameplay mechanics. But has story.
-Diablo is built around its gameplay. Not the story. 
 

On 6/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You don't play games like Diablo, or Crash Bandicoot for the story. The fact that it's there at all only means that developers were responsible enough to add it. And even then the level (objectives) layout was predetermined by the story written prior to the development (before it was released to the public, at the very least). You can't just write a storyline right now and put it on top of the current Warframe. It is theoretically possible, but, as I said, only by reworking the game from ground up with infinite money and dedication. They'll have to make a new game to do that, is what I'm saying. It's not gonna happen.

No they don't have to "Re-Work the Game" in order to put in story. Once you have gameplay mechanics and features down, you can put in story.
I have not seen any problems with the stories themselves in Warframe.
The side quests and cinematic quests we have received so far have not been game breaking and fit in just fine. 
And Yes they have pre-written stuff.

What I do agree with is focus resources on the important thing First; Gameplay Features and Mechanics.
They do not have the resources to work on so many things at once. So focus on one thing at a time.
This is why, in the past, I have recommended a publisher (But DE has a poor history with Publishers so...)

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 It doesn't mean that your vision is bad, but it requires an actual tripleA title designed from scratch to pull this off

It's Not my Vision. It's the Developers. Its obvious when you see all the features they have been working on implementing.
-The amount of Planets and Moon locations. (Which they are currently working on new tile-sets for)
-The Social Areas such as Relays and the latest "Iron Wake" on Earth
-Pets
-Space Combat.
-Dialogue system.
-A Morality System. 
-The Operators.
-Lunaro and Combat PvP
-Clans (and Activities for those Clans)
^Almost None of these Things were in for a long while^

Problem being that all of these features are partially made and need more focus than Story right now. 
See I am focused on right now. As the game stands right now theses things need more work before story.

Again, Warframe is very barebones right now because it is Very Much BETA.

On 6/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Oh, God. I'll bring the meme again if you keep this on. Warframe is four years in beta! It's a Beta in name only. It will NEVER be released. You can't cut DE this much slack just on the basis of the Beta tag.

You know why it is taking this long? Because they are not a Triple A company trying to make a Triple A title game. They did not launch a complete product.
They launched the basics that the players could work with.
By Any Game Standard (Excluding Story) its an incomplete product. That is why I call it Beta.
 

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Doesn't mean it can't be done in a different  game tho.  

It already is. They're called Destiny and Anthem.
Which is what I tried Warning the community about over 2 years ago.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Iccotak

[Koloricsi]

Been playing since Closed Beta, playing mostly alone (friends are not interested since i was honest and this game only has the grindfest going for it, you have to literally like only the gameplay itself because there is nothing else that would entertain you) and usually play with randoms in mm. I barely even log in to get the rewards anymore. I used to love this game, i still want it to be really good but its literally going nowhere.
There is no progression, getting irrelevant equipment #812, leveling it to 30 and selling it/letting it collect dust in the arsenal is not progression. Mods aren't meaningful progression either, they are stat boosts that shouldn't be a separate system but innate on the equipment itself (in its current form, where 4 out of 8 slots are fixed for specific things and the rest is just swapping between crit or elemental).
But tbh, it would be pointless to have a progression when we don't even have content where we could use it, without completely dominating it or having to cheese it. (Endless missions make me vomit, there is nothing more boring than breezing through 30 mins, then cheesing it because the only thing that increases is the sponginess of the enemies and the chance of you getting oneshotted, while also looking at the same scenery)

I don't think kuva/plats are a worthy reward either, what are they used for? Getting more equipment that you will probably not use longer than you need to and rerolling ridiculous bandages that are there to make S#&$ equipment slightly less S#&$ or buff already strong more.

What i feel like is that DE have reached the limit of their creativity a while ago, game design vise, and they don't even enjoy developing it anymore. The constant need for updates that they created for themselves doesn't even let them recharge this creativity. This is a stalemate that can't be won, they either keep updating with meaningless content or stop updating, lean back and think long and hard about how they want to continue, losing many players meanwhile.

 

I repeat, i used to love this game, i still like it, but i want to love it again and see its potential realized, which on the current track will never be achieved.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Koloricsi

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 01.07.2017 at 3:33 PM, Iccotak said:

-DOOM certainly isn't. It has context for its setting but It's built around good gameplay mechanics. Yet has a story campaign. 
-Dark Souls is built around intensive combat, not the story. 
-Halo is built around combat, not story.
-Destiny is built around its Gameplay mechanics. But has story.
-Diablo is built around its gameplay. Not the story. 

Doom's story is nonexistant. And yet the game overall was still first written as a script before it was assembled into a finished product.
Dark Souls - same thing.
Halo - triple the same thing.
Destiny levels were built specifically for the quests that were written preproduction.
Diablo would have been just fine without the story, but it was still written for the game prior to release. 

 None of these games ever added a storylines four years after the game was released to the public. 

On 01.07.2017 at 3:33 PM, Iccotak said:

It's Not my Vision. It's the Developers. Its obvious when you see all the features they have been working on implementing.

They're just trying to stay afloat, m8. They're just adding more content to combat content fatigue - instead of just playing the game themselves once and understanding how it works and what needs to be done.

Ugh. I installed warframe yesterday. Logged in today. Got DCed for the first time, then froze after the next mission. Had to alt+f4. Then went to Mot to farm some Rhino relics - got one, but my teammates left after just 25 minutes. Then got DCed three times in a row. This game, m8... this game...   

Edited July 2, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo