Frames speed difference is a step in wrong direction.

[Ambience]

Your ponits kind of contradict themselves. Rhino has no "clear a room of 30 people" button. His "size" is just a graphical representation, and has no correlation to what he can do. It is the other frames that can currently run like the wind that have the one button "dps" abilities. In that respect, he is not a "big" frame at all.

As he has no aggro pull abilities, Rhino also doesn't fall under the catagory of a "tank". Loki's Decoy ability is much more effective at "tanking" as it actually draws aggro away from other people. In effect, none of Rhinos abilities define him as a tank. To say Iron Skin makes Rhino a tank would also mean that Electric Shield makes Volt a tank. Rhino's abilities would more likely fall under the CC catagory, as they arn't effective enough to count as DPS.

Lastly, I think you and Sofiel are saying the same thing.

I agree Rhino is far from a tank. Regardless of Rhino or Frosts base defense it is almost unnoticeable and does not make a difference. The only thing that makes Rhino even little tanky is "Rhino Skin" which requires power to use, so it is more like an "Oh Shi... button" than tanking. The second that ability goes off and you are barraged with hits so your shields/hp start to melt. Armor stacking is useless too. Also, since Frost has 13 slots (correct me if I am wrong, I don't have him made yet.) as opposed to Rhinos 9 slots make Rhino even more useless. As for speed... using Rhino charge with sprint boost helps counter being left in the dust a bit, but it's a waste of a slot or 2 considering he ONLY has 9 slots. I would probably even go as far as to say he is underpowered compared to most of the classes. Rhino can hold his own but he needs some fixing as far as I can see.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Ambience

[Ronyn]

i love the way the speed change depending the frame,

before those change, i was just not feeling using other frames since the gameplay was the same allmost

now i have issue to select a frame and enjoy diferent game feeling with mly diferent frames

i still want more unikeness for the Prime calibu and the other frames but i love the way they takin now

Differences are good but movement speed is not the right place for it.

[Zythi]

I have to agree. I'm not certain I understand the movement speed changes. What are they supposed to do, exactly? It doesn't increase depth, but it certainly increases complexity as the slower frames now have to juggle strange uses of powers just to keep pace. Especially given that the game isn't competitive, does it really matter that the tanky, primarily short range Rhino is running the same speed as your agile trickster god Loki? You both still get exp and drops...

[Mak_Gohae]

I have to agree. I'm not certain I understand the movement speed changes. What are they supposed to do, exactly? It doesn't increase depth, but it certainly increases complexity as the slower frames now have to juggle strange uses of powers just to keep pace. Especially given that the game isn't competitive, does it really matter that the tanky, primarily short range Rhino is running the same speed as your agile trickster god Loki? You both still get exp and drops...

Well, now that i got Frost, a slow one, im leveling a Latron, a long range rifle, so that gives a use to those type of weapons for that frame. And i am thinking of going for more slots for him to add some speed. You can do the same with Rhino and add power range and have him charging all over the place like a linebacker.

[UkyoSonoda]

I have to agree. I'm not certain I understand the movement speed changes. What are they supposed to do, exactly? It doesn't increase depth, but it certainly increases complexity as the slower frames now have to juggle strange uses of powers just to keep pace. Especially given that the game isn't competitive, does it really matter that the tanky, primarily short range Rhino is running the same speed as your agile trickster god Loki? You both still get exp and drops...

Again I think it really has less to do with moving slower and more to do with lack of missions where a faster move speed doen't lend itself as a seemingly huge bonus or benefit. If they'd done these move speed changes at the same time as adding new missions that didn't focus on running most of the time and new hazards that made openly rushing more risky or detrimental the decreased speed probably would have been recieved by players alot better.

[Zythi]

Well, now that i got Frost, a slow one, im leveling a Latron, a long range rifle, so that gives a use to those type of weapons for that frame. And i am thinking of going for more slots for him to add some speed. You can do the same with Rhino and add power range and have him charging all over the place like a linebacker.

While that's 100% true, my question is this: Is this something you couldn't do without the speed decreases?

Said differently: Is the speed decrease granting you the option to perform these feats? Or is it an arbitrary decrease where you perform in spite of it?

[Tsoe]

wut the point of the new speed system?

as some legendary tenno said:

"well it make sene to run slow when you drive a tank"

J.Frost.D AD.10 800

....

Also yes i play totally diferent with frost than my kalibur, i am using every single triks to gain speed and mobility with frost...

i just run around fll speed with kalibur..

if yu guys ant deal with speed hange , plz dont use heavy armored creatures

[Sofiel]

wut the point of the new speed system?

as some legendary tenno said:

"well it make sene to run slow when you drive a tank"

J.Frost.D AD.10 800

....

Also yes i play totally diferent with frost than my kalibur, i am using every single triks to gain speed and mobility with frost...

i just run around fll speed with kalibur..

if yu guys ant deal with speed hange , plz dont use heavy armored creatures

I don't even know what this is. Are you speaking german? I swear you said something about my mother. I'll have you know she is a SAINT!

But no seriously: Speed differences bad, they don't promote cooperative gameplay.

[Nephera]

what if rhino's sprint was slower to start with but ramped up to a significant clip.

[V1RTU5]

what if rhino's sprint was slower to start with but ramped up to a significant clip.

im the juggernaugt!!!!

not a bad way to look at it. make his charge ability passive so when he reaches max speed he just plows through people. be hard to implement but i like it lol

[UkyoSonoda]

im the juggernaugt!!!!

not a bad way to look at it. make his charge ability passive so when he reaches max speed he just plows through people. be hard to implement but i like it lol

But would he require a credit card to activate that passive and charge so much? ;P lol

[Redler]

Scrwe driving a tank slowly, I wanna do a wheelie with that tank.

[Ronyn]

Also yes i play totally diferent with frost than my kalibur, i am using every single triks to gain speed and mobility with frost...

i just run around fll speed with kalibur..

So what youre saying is you try to play fast with both frames but the slow one requires that you use "tricks"..lol

if yu guys ant deal with speed hange , plz dont use heavy armored creatures

Bought the rhino back when he was fast partly because he was fast.

Things change in beta so it happens but consdiering I was playing a game with space ninja and high speed combat I didnt expect to suddenly be slowed down.

[Zythi]

.. consdiering I was playing a game with space ninja and high speed combat I didnt expect to suddenly be slowed down.

This is kind of my point. The game is built around high speed engagements and in that light reducing the speeds of warframes feels unwarranted. I'm not even sure what this change was designed to address. Was Rhino solo clearing too quickly? The speed change just seems to be forcing players to use strategies that mitigate the speed limitations. Is forcing strategy changes like that necessary in games without a competitive scene?

I agree that the warframes could use with some extra distinction, as beyond powers they feel very same-y. I don't agree that speed was the place to make this distinction.

[Ronyn]

This is kind of my point. The game is built around high speed engagements and in that light reducing the speeds of warframes feels unwarranted. I'm not even sure what this change was designed to address. Was Rhino solo clearing too quickly? The speed change just seems to be forcing players to use strategies that mitigate the speed limitations. Is forcing strategy changes like that necessary in games without a competitive scene?

I agree that the warframes could use with some extra distinction, as beyond powers they feel very same-y. I don't agree that speed was the place to make this distinction.

Exactly.

What really strikes me as odd is that in the same patch that we get wall running some of the frames get slowed down.

Seems counter intuative to each other doesnt it?

Its like "hey lets get even more agility into this game with gravity defying feats that everyone can do....but some of the folks walk slow because theyre heavy".

[Depsilon]

Rhinos aren't slow in real life :D

[Ryme]

This is kind of my point. The game is built around high speed engagements and in that light reducing the speeds of warframes feels unwarranted. I'm not even sure what this change was designed to address. Was Rhino solo clearing too quickly? The speed change just seems to be forcing players to use strategies that mitigate the speed limitations. Is forcing strategy changes like that necessary in games without a competitive scene?

I agree that the warframes could use with some extra distinction, as beyond powers they feel very same-y. I don't agree that speed was the place to make this distinction.

Agreed.

I believe there have been 2 or 3 other threads about this issue. Everyone who mains other frames and are in favor of the decrease, and justify it as because Rhino is the "tank" and tanks are supposed to be slow. In all seriousness, I've yet to see Rhino or any frame "tank" anything. The game simply does not employ a "trinity" role system. All the themes of "tank", "dps", and "support" are illusionary. Every frame can acheive the same stats and gear loadouts through access to the same arsenal of weapons and mods.

Most normal missions consist of everyone charging into a crowded room while spraying guns and spamming melee. There is no use of tactics such as "pulling", grabing agro, or maintaining threat that are used in traditional trinity RPGs. Boss fights consist of everyone ducking behind cover when a boss is focused on them, and popping out to unload when the boss is looking at someone else. Rhinos, Frosts, and Trinity all have to do this. There is no frame that can take the full focus of a boss throughout the entire span of the fight.

If popping off Iron Skin and standing in front of a boss for a few seconds is some how supposed to qualify as "tanking", I've seen just as many Volts and Excaliburs pull off the same with Electric Shield and Radial Blind.

Slowing Rhino down so that he doesn't clear rooms too quickly isn't even a valid point, because Rhino has never been a frame that cleared rooms instantly. The skills that allowed that are attached to frames like Volt, Mag, and Excalibur.

The only thing that can be agreed on is that Rhino does in fact look slightly bigger than other frames. If the graphical size is real issue, then I would petition they scale down his model to half the size of other frames and let him move twice as fast as them.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Ryme

[Ronyn]

Agreed.

I believe there have been 2 or 3 other threads about this issue. Everyone who mains other frames and are in favor of the decrease, and justify it as because Rhino is the "tank" and tanks are supposed to be slow. In all seriousness, I've yet to see Rhino or any frame "tank" anything. The game simply does not employ a "trinity" role system. All the themes of "tank", "dps", and "support" are illusionary. Every frame can acheive the same stats and gear loadouts through access to the same arsenal of weapons and mods.

Most normal missions consist of everyone charging into a crowded room while spraying guns and spamming melee. There is no use of tactics such as "pulling", grabing agro, or maintaining threat that are used in traditional trinity RPGs. Boss fights consist of everyone ducking behind cover when a boss is focused on them, and popping out to unload when the boss is looking at someone else. Rhinos, Frosts, and Trinity all have to do this. There is no frame that can take the full focus of a boss throughout the entire span of the fight.

If popping off Iron Skin and standing in front of a boss for a few seconds is some how supposed to qualify as "tanking", I've seen just as many Volts and Excaliburs pull off the same with Electric Shield and Radial Blind.

Slowing Rhino down so that he doesn't clear rooms too quickly isn't even a valid point, because Rhino has never been a frame that cleared rooms instantly. The skills that allowed that are attached to frames like Volt, Mag, and Excalibur.

TRUTH!

The only thing that can be agreed on is that Rhino does in fact look slightly bigger than other frames. If the graphical size is real issue, then I would petition they scale down his model to half the size of other frames and let him move twice as fast as them.

lol....

[Eversor]

Agreed.

I believe there have been 2 or 3 other threads about this issue. Everyone who mains other frames and are in favor of the decrease, and justify it as because Rhino is the "tank" and tanks are supposed to be slow. In all seriousness, I've yet to see Rhino or any frame "tank" anything. The game simply does not employ a "trinity" role system. All the themes of "tank", "dps", and "support" are illusionary. Every frame can acheive the same stats and gear loadouts through access to the same arsenal of weapons and mods.

Most normal missions consist of everyone charging into a crowded room while spraying guns and spamming melee. There is no use of tactics such as "pulling", grabing agro, or maintaining threat that are used in traditional trinity RPGs. Boss fights consist of everyone ducking behind cover when a boss is focused on them, and popping out to unload when the boss is looking at someone else. Rhinos, Frosts, and Trinity all have to do this. There is no frame that can take the full focus of a boss throughout the entire span of the fight.

If popping off Iron Skin and standing in front of a boss for a few seconds is some how supposed to qualify as "tanking", I've seen just as many Volts and Excaliburs pull off the same with Electric Shield and Radial Blind.

Slowing Rhino down so that he doesn't clear rooms too quickly isn't even a valid point, because Rhino has never been a frame that cleared rooms instantly. The skills that allowed that are attached to frames like Volt, Mag, and Excalibur.

The only thing that can be agreed on is that Rhino does in fact look slightly bigger than other frames. If the graphical size is real issue, then I would petition they scale down his model to half the size of other frames and let him move twice as fast as them.

This man knows what he is saying . Read him, and then praise him. AT LEAST SOMEONE WITH GUTS TO TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH!!!

There are no TANK mechanics guys, not that hard to catch it, its stupid to decrease a frame speed using the fallacy of the "tank" speech to justify it. Which gives me the reason when i said that this has happened more for "lore" than for "gameplay".

Make the equation: Rhino BIG + Rhino ARMORED = Rhino SLOW = Bad Gameplay for Rhino´s users

There is no equation for poor Trinity however, she got hammered to the bones...

My respects Ryme

Edited February 7, 2013 by Eversor

[Ronyn]

This man knows what he is saying . Read him, and then praise him. AT LEAST SOMEONE WITH GUTS TO TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH!!!

There are no TANK mechanics guys, not that hard to catch it, its stupid to decrease a frame speed using the fallacy of the "tank" speech

indeed.

Whats funny too is that even if the rhino was a tank why should that mean he should be slow?

In traditional trinity mmorpgs from Wow to Rift the tank is often dashing all over the place to make sure he is where he needs to be.

[UkyoSonoda]

indeed.

Whats funny too is that even if the rhino was a tank why should that mean he should be slow?

In traditional trinity mmorpgs from Wow to Rift the tank is often dashing all over the place to make sure he is where he needs to be.

Actually in most of those the tank doesn't move much at all unless they can't actually tank the target and need to kite. Otherwise they have skills that force the target to come to them or focus on them. Hurray emnity systems.

[TheAscendedOne]

All frames should move at the same speed. The current system is bad for cooperative play.

[Ronyn]

Actually in most of those the tank doesn't move much at all unless they can't actually tank the target and need to kite. Otherwise they have skills that force the target to come to them or focus on them. Hurray emnity systems.

While you are correct about abilities that force attention onto themselves and the long amounts of time spent standing in a boss monsters crotch holding aggro...lol

You cannot forget about many warriors ability get where they need to be.

The famous "warrior charge" ability for closing distance that is so common in those games.

The often used "intercede" like ability that allows you to get to an ally to absorb an attack meant for them.

Our stuff like the wow prot paladins "long arm of the law" that increases their movement speed.

Historically speaking, In most cases the tank isnt the fastest character on the feild but they tend to be among the most capable of quickly closing the distance on an enemy.

Alternatively they could go the deathknight tank route and control distance buy grabing folks and literally pulling them to you...lol

But clearly the rhino is not set up for that.

[V1RTU5]

rhino is advertized as a "tank" just like trinity is advertized as a support sense currently neither fill those roles is a real issue.

again even tho i agree the current mobility is way to slow to justify. realistically speaking bigger should move slower but not this damn slow. (yes even in Si-fi they still apply the same physics we use). the main issue is they made the heavy frames way to slow and over compensated for realism.

with that said a rhino when equipped properly (power efficiency and power duration mods) should be able to run any mission without ever dropping iron skin. the issue with this is even tho it is possible to run a whole mission with out taking a drop of damage aggro seems to still be very random and there's no way to grab aggro ether. so other than solo, staying invincible is rather unnecessary. the same thing goes with trinity's link and blessing combo. you can essentially stay invincible for the entire match and even when you do take damage you can heal yourself back to full.

the other thing that's keeping "tanks" from standing out is any class can do it. you can put shield hp and armor mods on any frame and still be nearly be un-killable. which is nice but really hides the great qualities of actual "tanking" i would like to see more defined roles but that's just me

again main point is heavy frames should still be slower but not so outrageously slow that they cant even keep up

EDIT: forgot to spell check XD

Edited February 7, 2013 by V1RTU5

[Ronyn]

rhino is advertized as a "tank" just like trinity is advertized as a support sense currently neither fill those roles is a real issue.

The trinitys description actually uses the words healing and support.

Rhino frame is described as being the heaviest frame that has the most defensive and offesnive capability.

Why does that means tank in the mmorpg sense?

Though as I mentioned in an ealier post tanks arent particularly slower moving than other roles in mmorpgs.

So even it is a tank it does not mean it should move slower.

If we are going to compare the rhino to a real world tank then its obvious that he doesnt have some giant cannon on him that others lack.

besides how does any of that apply to the frost or the trinity?

again even tho i agree the current mobility is way to slow to justify. realistically speaking bigger should move slower but not this damn slow. (yes even in Si-fi they still apply the same physics we use). the main issue is they made the heavy frames way to slow and over compensated for realism.

In sci fi universes physics apply the normal way only when the lore wants it to. lol

That aside any argument that assumes that "bigger inherently moves slower" in physics is flawed anyway.

That is simply not always true. Its never been that simple. It depends on a lot of factors.

An object with greater mass can acheive higher velocity than an object with lesser mass when the force applied to the greater mass is higher porportionatetly.

Sometimes the bigger object is quite fast.

again main point is heavy frames should still be slower but not so outrageously slow that they cant even keep up

Why should they be slower?

What is the gameplay based reason?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Ronyn