Frames speed difference is a step in wrong direction.

[UkyoSonoda]

While you are correct about abilities that force attention onto themselves and the long amounts of time spent standing in a boss monsters crotch holding aggro...lol

You cannot forget about many warriors ability get where they need to be.

The famous "warrior charge" ability for closing distance that is so common in those games.

The often used "intercede" like ability that allows you to get to an ally to absorb an attack meant for them.

Our stuff like the wow prot paladins "long arm of the law" that increases their movement speed.

Historically speaking, In most cases the tank isnt the fastest character on the feild but they tend to be among the most capable of quickly closing the distance on an enemy.

Alternatively they could go the deathknight tank route and control distance buy grabing folks and literally pulling them to you...lol

But clearly the rhino is not set up for that.

Thing about WoW is it was intended with a large amount of PvP in mind. This is the primary reason warrior and paladin had any kind of movement steriod. Otherwise ranged classes would have just kited them to death staying out of their threat bubble. Majority of MMORPG's I've played that didn't have a heavy PvP focus or factor the tank classes only had aggro tools to keep enemies attacking them or to draw enemies to them. However another thing to note on alot of these types of MMORPG's these tanking classes usually had a very respectable damage output as well due to damage output being a large factor into their monster emnity equations.

In regards to the move speed alterations they did to make each frame have a different feel to it along with the skill tree revamp. It succeeded at doing so. Also I see alot of potential with it provided the devs are working on content that doesn't lean itself to making a faster move speed seem like such a large bonus or advantage to players. Like I've mentioned before currently only 1 mission type is designed in a manner where the difference in move speed plays almost no factor at all. Those are defense missions. If there were more missions that shifted focus to survivability over running around for objectives or guarding a slow moving AI element until it reaches an assigned destination I guess like a mobile defense or escort mission running 3-4 rooms ahead wouldn't be any benefit since the enemies would always be spawning constantly near the escort element to attack it.

I think the real issue was the timing and execution of when they did the move speed alterations. No real new mission types, specifically ones that didn't revolve around running through the level quickly, and the addition of a much larger wide open tile set that causes a bigger focus by players on differences in move speed.

[Ronyn]

Thing about WoW is it was intended with a large amount of PvP in mind. This is the primary reason warrior and paladin had any kind of movement steriod. Otherwise ranged classes would have just kited them to death staying out of their threat bubble. Majority of MMORPG's I've played that didn't have a heavy PvP focus or factor the tank classes only had aggro tools to keep enemies attacking them or to draw enemies to them. However another thing to note on alot of these types of MMORPG's these tanking classes usually had a very respectable damage output as well due to damage output being a large factor into their monster emnity equations.

My only point of bringing up the way those mmorpgs played was to debunk the myth that tanks are slow in mmorpgs.

Based on the most popular games in the genre that just isnt the case.

In regards to the move speed alterations they did to make each frame have a different feel to it along with the skill tree revamp. It succeeded at doing so.

I understand and agree with the goal to make frames feel different.

There are MANY ways to differentiate the frames....

are they all good ideas? no.

I dont believe move speed was the right answer for the lore or core combat of this game.

Also I see alot of potential with it provided the devs are working on content that doesn't lean itself to making a faster move speed seem like such a large bonus or advantage to players. Like I've mentioned before currently only 1 mission type is designed in a manner where the difference in move speed plays almost no factor at all. Those are defense missions. If there were more missions that shifted focus to survivability over running around for objectives or guarding a slow moving AI element until it reaches an assigned destination I guess like a mobile defense or escort mission running 3-4 rooms ahead wouldn't be any benefit since the enemies would always be spawning constantly near the escort element to attack it.

I think the real issue was the timing and execution of when they did the move speed alterations. No real new mission types, specifically ones that didn't revolve around running through the level quickly, and the addition of a much larger wide open tile set that causes a bigger focus by players on differences in move speed.

Actually slow movement speed has an effect on defense missions as well.

If you would like to run a melee focused build its much easier when you can zoom around the area and intercept the enemies before they are in range to attack what you are defending.

By lessoning the rhinos movement speed they have now made my old favorite playstyle with him harder and counter intuative to his base stats.

I do understand what you are saying though. The right m ission types take some focus off of move speed.

The issue is that now has to be taken into account on every mission and area built where before it did not.

From my view, its added complication for little reward.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Ronyn

[Namacyst]

Like i wrote in another thread already: As long as all the slow Frames can wallrun and jump as high as the fast frames there is no logical reason whatsoever why they should be slower as others... unless DE nerfs wallrunning and jumping for them, too ...but that would make the slow frames unplayable and noone will pick them anymore.

[Juper0]

Maybe this has been mentioned, but 103 posts is a lot to read.

I would like to see more stamina on slower frames. or maybe faster stamina recovery and a higher speed boost on them. something that would allow for the differences in speeds (i happen to like the idea) but make sure the slower frames without mobility powers can keep up.

[P3rm4Raid3n]

I do not agree with recent run speed nerf of some of the frames.

While it makes sense in a logical point of view that some heavy frames would be slower than others, i dont believe its a good gameplay or balancing mechanic.

It takes away some fun from game, when my space takes a leisure jogging session, instead of rushing forward. It really feels clunky and uneasy to control.

It breaks the team apart, as it is hard to keep up after faster frames, even more after those with additional movement abilities (Dash, charge, teleport, etc)

It does not bring balance to the game.

Im would love to see the old system back, with every frame having the same base speed. It could still be increased by mods so speed freaks would have their fun.

Agree....

very hard to play rhino and frost trying to keep up with the other tennos as i get the left overs when i get to the battle ground. it really sucks!!!

[GratuitousLurking]

It's not just the rhinos and frosts that have issues. I'm a non-boosted Volt and the amount of time I've been outran by anything short of other loot-grabbing teammates is rediculous. It can sometimes take 3-4 uses of Speed to get back up to the fray, if I'm even lucky enough to get there the chance of having anything left to kill is less then zero. What's with all the rushing anyway? I thought this was Warframe, not Tribes.

[UkyoSonoda]

My only point of bringing up the way those mmorpgs played was to debunk the myth that tanks are slow in mmorpgs.

Based on the most popular games in the genre that just isnt the case.

Rather than use 1 or 2 over hyped examples its better to look at the entire genre in general and see what is really the norm. I can assure you though that tanks having any type of movement steriod in that genre has nothing to do with it's success or popularity.

However when you look at a Rhino's skill set nothing in it is really any sort of aggro tool. It has a dashing or charge attack, a defensive steriod, and crowd control abilities. Lack of anything to force attention from enemies onto itself really makes it fail in regards to being a tank. However the kit does fit themes of a heavy assault unit or a heavy bruiser.

Edited February 7, 2013 by UkyoSonoda

[CY13ERPUNK]

Like i wrote in another thread already: As long as all the slow Frames can wallrun and jump as high as the fast frames there is no logical reason whatsoever why they should be slower as others... unless DE nerfs wallrunning and jumping for them, too ...but that would make the slow frames unplayable and noone will pick them anymore.

AFAIK wallrunning IS affected by runspeed

my rhino cannot run up walls as far as my excalibur can (there is a fenced stairway on some of the new grineer maps that my excalibur can run up and climb over, but my rhino can only run up and backflip off, he wont reach the top to grab and clmb over it)

[Ronyn]

Rather than use 1 or 2 over hyped examples its better to look at the entire genre in general and see what is really the norm. I can assure you though that tanks having any type of movement steriod in that genre has nothing to do with it's success or popularity.

You didnt quite get my point. My initial statement was a reference to the mmorpg genre far and wide.

I simply used two games..one reletively older and one reletively new as bookends to my point.

I wasnt focus on those two games specifically. Heck, look at the mmorpg genre without those two game examples if you like.

While tanks arent always dash happy like wows prot warrior they sure as heck arent partuclulary slow compared to other classes in general.

No matter how we look at the genre does not support the argument that tanks are always slow.

I can assure you though that tanks having any type of movement steriod in that genre has nothing to do with it's success or popularity.

I'm not interested in debating about what specific aspeects of a game made it popular or successful.

But i will say that no one can reasonably claim to know what aspects of class design was or wasnt related to it.

However when you look at a Rhino's skill set nothing in it is really any sort of aggro tool. It has a dashing or charge attack, a defensive steriod, and crowd control abilities. Lack of anything to force attention from enemies onto itself really makes it fail in regards to being a tank.

Ive never championed the argument that a rhino is a tank.

I said that even if he is that doesnt mean he should be slow.

However the kit does fit themes of a heavy assault unit or a heavy bruiser.

yes, more or less he does.

But this still does not suggest that slow movement fits the game.

[UkyoSonoda]

Given that i've played quite a few MMORPGs that gave various other classes movement steroids and not the tank classes does inherintly make them slower should the need to rush or focus on moving fast become a priority. However when dealing with PvE in an MMORPG speed is hardly ever a factor unless you're attempting at monopolizing all monster spawns in a given area for farming or exp purposes.

Currently in Warframe there's very little detrement to blindly rushing objectives on a mission which is one of the reasons people are so fixated on the differences in move speed. It's simply too easy to run full speed everywhere while throwing caution to the wind. Thus because of this heightened survivability rarely proves useful.

One of the other reasons is that mission stat card that pops up at the end of a mission specifically 2 stats on that card. Damage contribution % and Kill count. This is probably one of the biggest reasons. Most of the complaints I see over the slower move speed is "my team mates kill everything before I get there." To me it coincides with all the "nerf this plz" threads that popped up before over certain abilities like overload and weapons like the Hek and Gorgon. They were always flooded with "its not fun for me because they kill everything before I get to shoot it" reasons. Because of that end mission stat card people are prone to become competitive in a mission over these stats. Running faster given how most missions areas are setup does alot to bolster damage dealt and kill count stats. Boosted survivability in comparison contributes very little to your damage output and kill count.

Thus why I feel that instead of people complaining over moving at a slower pace than other frames it would be better to poke and prod devs to see if theres more mission based content due out soon that either cuts the benefits of a faster move speed or makes rushing a higher risk factor and makes increased survivability look more appealing. Reason being I don't really see them doing something like that without some sort of plan or reasoning behind it beyond "tankyness = slow".

[Ronyn]

Given that i've played quite a few MMORPGs that gave various other classes movement steroids and not the tank classes does inherintly make them slower should the need to rush or focus on moving fast become a priority.

Ive played quite a few myself and I disagree that tanks are paritcularly slower in the majority of big titles.

This week alone Ive played several different mmorpgs other than two I mentioned earlier.

Not to say that there wasnt some class that was faster but tanks werent at the bottom of the list in speed.

From tera to dcu...from lotro to aoc....etc....My tanks are generally at medium to high speed.

Currently in Warframe there's very little detrement to blindly rushing objectives on a mission which is one of the reasons people are so fixated on the differences in move speed. It's simply too easy to run full speed everywhere while throwing caution to the wind. Thus because of this heightened survivability rarely proves useful.

By "survivability" youre refering to the ability to take hits but that is not the only to survive.

Speed certainly has its uses on the offense but its also true that speed often increases survivability.

being able to reach cover or escape enemy attack is quite helpful for staying alive.

The most relevant time where the rhinos able to take substantially more hits than others is when Iron skin is up.

If there was a movement speed reduction ONLY DURING iron skin then MAYBE this would make sense...

outside of that he simply isnt tough enough to give up the amount of dodge ability he looses.

Currently in Warframe there's very little detrement to blindly rushing objectives on a mission which is one of the reasons people are so fixated on the differences in move speed. It's simply too easy to run full speed everywhere while throwing caution to the wind.

One of the other reasons is that mission stat card that pops up at the end of a mission specifically 2 stats on that card. Damage contribution % and Kill count. This is probably one of the biggest reasons. Most of the complaints I see over the slower move speed is "my team mates kill everything before I get there." To me it coincides with all the "nerf this plz" threads that popped up before over certain abilities like overload and weapons like the Hek and Gorgon. They were always flooded with "its not fun for me because they kill everything before I get to shoot it" reasons. Because of that end mission stat card people are prone to become competitive in a mission over these stats. Running faster given how most missions areas are setup does alot to bolster damage dealt and kill count stats. Boosted survivability in comparison contributes very little to your damage output and kill count.

You make good points here.

Still none of that promotes that three slow classes as a good direction for gameplay.

It only indicates certain problems that persist with or without the speed differences.

Thus why I feel that instead of people complaining over moving at a slower pace than other frames it would be better to poke and prod devs to see if theres more mission based content due out soon that either cuts the benefits of a faster move speed or makes rushing a higher risk factor and makes increased survivability look more appealing. Reason being I don't really see them doing something like that without some sort of plan or reasoning behind it beyond "tankyness = slow".

DE may have more plans with the movement speed changes.

They are able to make whatever choices with their game that they chose to but it doesnt mean I will agree with them.

Look if they gave the rhino helmut choices that let me choose between regular speed with regular armor or slower speed with better armor...

I'd be generally fine with whatever they feel the speed difference promotes.

[UkyoSonoda]

Another thing that has crossed my mind is if anyone has thoroughly researched armor values in how it equates to damage reduction. The reason for this being I think it was said a Rhino now had a base armor of 150 while other frames sat at 50 armor. The question here being how does those values equate into actual damage reduction. Given personal experiences in game it seems to translate into a % of the damage done to you but the rates vs stat card values are unclear. Having 3 x the base armor value looks good on paper but just how much more damage mitigation are you getting from that increase?

[[DE]Rebecca]

We have made some changes to the speed differences since today's latest hotfix.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10762-update-63-hotfixes/page__st__200#entry95438