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PS4 chat ban makes no sense


(PSN)AnaLoGMunKy
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Someone else cam in to the chat on PS4 today and told us he was banned for using the word Gay?

"Oh not this again!!" I hear you cry. Yes this again.

I can say, without context the word "Rape" but cannot say, without context, the word "Gay".

 

Having chatbots autoban for such a widely used colloquialism is way out of order. Please improve the flagging or reporting feature instead of the current system, which is a brutally harsh and nonsensical blanket ban system. This is not any kind of solution to the problem.

I would like to suggest maybe an ingame system that needs multiple people to flag a person, then the bot could ban them or better yet, a human can check out the log and decide on a ban.

If that is not feasible then an improved online system to report abuse through the support website.

 

I already know there will be others out there that say things like "but its wrong to use the word about someones sexual orientation" or "its a bad word so you shouldnt use it" but this is an extremely violent game with adults playing and an optional maturity filter that lets me say some frankly terrible stuff and see all swear words.

 

This ban makes no sense, given the adult context of the game and the FACT that there is an optional maturity filter that lets me see all the usual swear words.

 

Please DE, can you not find another way to remedy this problem?

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Honestly "rape" should be banned too - people say some disgusting things in region chat.  There's no logical reason to be talking about gayness or homosexuality in a game's chat - and if you really wanted to, you could use the word 'homosexual.'  (You know, the proper term that hasn't been used as an insult for the last 100 years).  You know just as well as I do that 99% of the time people are not using the word in context - and once again, since it's true context is so far removed from the game - why even discuss it - there are plenty of gay/homosexual forums out there for you to go have these conversations on.  Warframe isn't the place for it.  

Those kinds of conversations almost always end up being inflammatory or get cancerous responses.  I'm for more restrictions on text chat - not less.  When I log in and read people saying they want to rape kids and eachother's mothers it absolutely blows my mind that DE isn' cracking down on it - I mean I guess they do have better things to do than hire staff to monitor chat, hence the bots.  Just yesterday a guy in PS4 NA was posting about how he rapes kids - like seriously, wtf!  I opened up a chat tab with him and put him on ignore - forever.  He shouldn't even be allowed to play the game anymore as far as I'm concerned. 

Don't like the bots?  Too bad - people already abused text chat too much and they're here to stay.  If anything they need to have their dictionaries expanded.

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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Why have a language filter at all as an option?

Your personal preference for language is accounted for, there is a language filter and you can mute or block the person. This is an adult game, you have a chat filter, you have a mute, you have the ability to report people, why do you insist on pushing further your view of enforcement, which is not shared by many, on other people when you already have tools to remedy your grievance?

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Well I think it stands to reason that I'm not offended by all types of profanity... A toggle to block it all doesn't help me hide the morally corrupt crap people come up with that doesn't fit into the filter.  I don't even use the toggle because I'm not a mong who cries about everything - however there's also certain limitations that should not be accepted or promoted by the community.  Swearing isn't inherently bad - in my honest opinion, but how people choose to use their words is utterly poisonous when you give them no restrictions.

And just because it's an adult game, doesn't warrant childish talk.  Civilized adults don't sit around talking about raping kids.  I'm sorry but that's reality.   If you're honestly saying they should be allowed to say those things purely because I have a chat filter, you obviously have your head screwed on wrong.

Something being chalk full of profanity and disgust doesn't make it "adult" content.  If you walked outside your house right now and started claiming you rape children, I'm almost certain you would be arrested for public indecency (at the very least).  Alot of people seem to think their right to freedom of speech means saying whatever they want without consequences, that is not the case.  You can say what you want, but there will be backlash.

There are certain rules that should be implemented and enforced.  This isn't a free-for-all.  Whether many people agree or disagree is besides the point - DE creates and enforced the rules (though I'm genuinely curious where you get the belief from that many disagree, confirmation bias maybe - did you go out and ask "who disagrees with this"?)  Based on common sense alone, I'm sure the vast majority of players would oppose this type of obscenity. 

I know if it was MY game I would write into the TOS that that kind of behavior isn't tolerated.  Talking about rape and people's sexuality, calling people n*ggers - these are things that do NOT produce a healthy GAME environment and should be met with lifetime bans.  Nobody wants to be a part of an environment like that except the people perpetuating it in the first place. 

If you want to have psychosocial/sexual/political conversations, go find a better avenue for it.  If you want make poo poo pee pee jokes, go talk to some children - because it's not adult humour.  If you want to swim in a cesspool of filth, that's your right to want that - but honestly, it's not what makes Warframe's community what it is and I'm sure most of us don't want it.  What you're asking is that I should be bombarded with homosexual slurs and rape messages all day - seriously, who the fk advocates for that?  Obviously somebody equally as sick and depraved... 

You make it seem so easy to block or toggle away but its not - 100s of people are doing it because they know they can get away with it.  I can't even open region tab without morally depraved comments being made - and it's not even funny.  I like sick, obscene humour - I really do - but I cannot and will not support sick twisted individuals making sexual threats and assertions about children.  Last time I checked Warframe is a GAME not an unrestricted free speech platform.

There's already less "enforcement" on the ingame chat than there is in real society lol - you can get away with death threats in Warframe, try that sh*t in real life and watch what happens.  We need to have standards.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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Why block gay and not rape, certainly that makes no sense to me. It made no sense to any of the other regulars in the chat room either.

The reality is that DE choose to block gay and not rape.This is the reality. So why?

You can already block people you find obscene. People go out into public and say obscene things all the time and dont get arrested until they cross some kind of societal barrier which changes depending on where you live. We already have something in place for this which is to contact DE support. Civilized behavior changes depending on your culture. I find you explanations and reasoning to literally block anything you find distasteful as an attack on the way we as humans work in a community. Your idea of law is to enforce adults not to speak about sex, politics or philosophy. Thankfully, you dont set the TOS for this game.

From my view, banning people so harshly rarely works in the companies favour unless they have a game designed for children, which this isnt. You are an adult and can use the block to enable your comfort. I have nothing against blocking people that upset you, Iv done it many times on many forums around the internet.

 

 

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Yes let me just block 100+ people a day - that's totally a reasonable solution.  It's my fault right for not doing anything about it? I should also waste hours on end reporting people to support right?

I also said they should block rape too - obviously an oversight on their part.

DE is in Canada - in Canada we have certain social rules that don't change.  Talking about raping kids is not socially acceptable here from West to East - even if you're playing in another country, you're playing a Canadian game, that goes by Canadian standards.  Calling people gay isn't acceptable behavior in Canada.  

I find your attempt to turn this into a cultural discussion about ethnocentrism to be quite amusing.  I don't know of many (any) cultures where joking about raping kids is funny or acceptable - and oddly enough, I studied Cultural Anthropology lol...

Again - if it doesn't help the game community, why allow it?  Those types of conversations don't bring anything good to the game and you know it.  Sex, politics and philosophy based in the real world have no point in Warframe, they serve nothing but to create conflict.

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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I know you said they should block rape too but its not an oversight on their part. I do find it strange how they block gay but not rape or any other common profanity that I have come across so far, in adult conversations with other adults. They have a profanity filter, so they obviously have intention for adult language. Obviously...

I find your attitude at adults talking about sex, politics and philosophy while playing an adult game highly unamusing. You have a problem with adult language? then dont enter the adult chat room.

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I don't have a problem with "adult language."

I have a problem with clearly abusive behaviors, plain and simple.  

You will never convince me, or anybody with a lick of common sense - that talks of raping kids should be ALLOWED.  There's no place on Earth for trash like that, let's not beg DE to turn the game into a cesspool.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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Im not begging them to turn the game into cesspool. They clearly have a profanity filter in the game and clearly I am correct and you are definitely wrong regarding DEs intentions for use of language.

What I am saying is perfectly reasonable, which is we should be allowed to use the word gay in the chat.

 

If DE decides they want to appeal more to a wider audience and chance alienating some of the more mature player base then I will have to accept their decision. Maybe it would be a good decision but I disagree.

 

I think the current system works and removing the word gay from the chatbots filter is acceptable considering the circumstance which I need to remind you yet again, is DEs profanity filter which indicates clearly they intend for profanity to be available in chat at the discretion on the mods. I think thats acceptable to most people with even a shred of common sense.

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Even a child friendly game, Spiral Knights, has allowed the word gay through their chat filter (and "muff" as well!! rejoice all you lovers of the word "muff"). Warframe is intended for adults, Spiral Knights is intended for all ages. I plea with you @DE... please remove this ban on gay! (and "muff" as well if you have that banned, you cant free the hero without freeing his mate)

 

ezZKuMm.jpg

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On 6/3/2017 at 7:06 PM, (PS4)AnaLoGMunKy said:

If DE decides they want to appeal more to a wider audience and chance alienating some of the more mature player base then I will have to accept their decision. Maybe it would be a good decision but I disagree.

I don't get this at all.  What is more mature about feeling alienated because you can't abuse other players (and a whole subset of the population) by calling them "gay"?  What is more mature about feeling alienated because you have to act as a more mature person and find polite ways to converse with others?

On 6/3/2017 at 6:43 PM, (PS4)lagrue said:

I don't have a problem with "adult language."

I have a problem with clearly abusive behaviors, plain and simple.  

Yes to this.  Someone dropping F-bombs is no big deal.  Someone using slurs towards others is a big deal.

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Gay meaning ‘homosexual’ became established in the 1960s as the term preferred by homosexual men to describe themselves. It is now the standard accepted term throughout the English-speaking world. As a result, the centuries-old other senses of gay meaning either ‘carefree’ or ‘bright and showy’ have more or less dropped out of natural use. The word gay cannot be readily used today in these older senses without arousing a sense of double entendre, despite concerted attempts by some to keep them alive. Gay in its modern sense typically refers to men (lesbian being the standard term for homosexual women) but in some contexts it can be used of both men and women.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gay

so...

the word "Gay" is a name "preference" made by homosexual men. Which means it IS NOT a slur word or an insult. Its a word that originally meant jovial, happy, spirited...and was changed into a slang term by homosexual men to describe their sexual preference.

 

get ur facts straight gents.

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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53 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Gay meaning ‘homosexual’ became established in the 1960s as the term preferred by homosexual men to describe themselves. It is now the standard accepted term throughout the English-speaking world. As a result, the centuries-old other senses of gay meaning either ‘carefree’ or ‘bright and showy’ have more or less dropped out of natural use. The word gay cannot be readily used today in these older senses without arousing a sense of double entendre, despite concerted attempts by some to keep them alive. Gay in its modern sense typically refers to men (lesbian being the standard term for homosexual women) but in some contexts it can be used of both men and women.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gay

so...

the word "Gay" is a name "preference" made by homosexual men. Which means it IS NOT a slur word or an insult. Its a word that originally meant jovial, happy, spirited...and was changed into a slang term by homosexual men to describe their sexual preference.

 

get ur facts straight gents.

I have to applaud this. In this day and age people have felt the need to impose their insecurities and sensitivities on others and it has gotten out of hand. Historical context for a lot of words, ideas and images get thrown out the window because of modern perversions. 

Context is always important. A blanket ban on words or ideas devoid of context is wrong and there can be no justification for it.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I have to applaud this. In this day and age people have felt the need to impose their insecurities and sensitivities on others and it has gotten out of hand. Historical context for a lot of words, ideas and images get thrown out the window because of modern perversions. 

Context is always important. A blanket ban on words or ideas devoid of context is wrong and there can be no justification for it.

And, the swastika was a peace symbol in Tibet long before WWII.  Meanings and usages change, it's part of how language evolves.  Ignoring that because you don't like how people have changed in "this day and age" is ignoring how language works.

And, I agree that context is important in many cases, but context doesn't escape the fact that gay is used as a slur much more often than any other context.  In fact, the only context it would be appropriate would be if a gay man was calling himself gay (because let's face it, no one uses it in the original form of happy or jovial).  To allow the slur to be used because the word might be used every once in a blue moon in a way that is not contextually bad doesn't seem like the best way to preserve inclusivity on the chat tabs.

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9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

And, the swastika was a peace symbol in Tibet long before WWII.  Meanings and usages change, it's part of how language evolves.  Ignoring that because you don't like how people have changed in "this day and age" is ignoring how language works.

And, I agree that context is important in many cases, but context doesn't escape the fact that gay is used as a slur much more often than any other context.  In fact, the only context it would be appropriate would be if a gay man was calling himself gay (because let's face it, no one uses it in the original form of happy or jovial).  To allow the slur to be used because the word might be used every once in a blue moon in a way that is not contextually bad doesn't seem like the best way to preserve inclusivity on the chat tabs.

Meaning and usage change as a result of societal views and interpretations as well, not just because language has evolved. In the case of words or images causing offense, more often than not it is a result of the former and not the latter.

The problem with letting society dictate what is and isn't acceptable is its fickle nature. It's a slippery slope and is something that needs to be addressed. Gay just happens to be the flavour of the month currently. But I have a real life example of a person's name being considered "offensive". Where do we draw the line?

E2A: I missed your comment about "preserving inclusivity". Do you see the irony here? We'll exclude people who might actually use gay to mean "happy or jovial" at the expense of being more inclusive?

Edited by (PS4)abbacephas
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9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

And, the swastika was a peace symbol in Tibet long before WWII.  Meanings and usages change, it's part of how language evolves.  Ignoring that because you don't like how people have changed in "this day and age" is ignoring how language works.

And, I agree that context is important in many cases, but context doesn't escape the fact that gay is used as a slur much more often than any other context.  In fact, the only context it would be appropriate would be if a gay man was calling himself gay (because let's face it, no one uses it in the original form of happy or jovial).  To allow the slur to be used because the word might be used every once in a blue moon in a way that is not contextually bad doesn't seem like the best way to preserve inclusivity on the chat tabs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT

The initialism, LGBT, is intended to emphasize a diversity of sexuality and gender identity-based cultures. It may be used to refer to anyone who is non-heterosexual or non-cisgender, instead of exclusively to people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.[2][5] To recognize this inclusion, a popular variant adds the letter Q for those who identify as queer or are questioning their sexual identity; LGBTQ has been recorded since 1996.[6]Those who add intersex people to LGBT groups or organizing use an extended initialism LGBTI.[7][8]Some people combine the two acronyms and use the term LGBTIQ. Others use LGBT+ to encompass a spectrum of gender and sexuality.[9]

again...

"Gay" is not a slur or insult as many equal rights groups...most notably the LGBT+ group, uses it on a regular basis. 

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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10 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Meaning and usage change as a result of societal views and interpretations as well, not just because language has evolved. In the case of words or images causing offense, more often than not it is a result of the former and not the latter.

The problem with letting society dictate what is and isn't acceptable is its fickle nature. It's a slippery slope and is something that needs to be addressed. Gay just happens to be the flavour of the month currently. But I have a real life example of a person's name being considered "offensive". Where do we draw the line?

E2A: I missed your comment about "preserving inclusivity". Do you see the irony here? We'll exclude people who might actually use gay to mean "happy or jovial" at the expense of being more inclusive?

Meaning and usage are part of language evolution.

And, of course society dictates what is and isn't acceptable.  How else do we decide?  But, no "gay" is not the FOTM.  It's been a slur for decades now (longer even?) and it's only come up now because some people think it's OK to use a slur to describe things they don't like, because "being edgy" or something.

Lastly, no one uses the word to describe being happy or jovial anymore, so I'm not at all concerned about that.  And, if people are so bent out of shape that they can't use a slur and leave, they were going to cause trouble and cause other people to leave anyway.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

"Gay" is not a slur or insult as many equal rights groups...most notably the LGBT+ group, uses it on a regular basis. 

Why are you trying so hard to defend a term that we both know is used as a slur by people outside of the LGBTQI community?  Are you really that bent out of shape because Kickbot will flag you for using slurs that you don't have to use?

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Came in here just to congratulate both on the civilized debate and show the benefits of not being strongheaded: I came with my mind set into the 'no filter' idea proposed by TC and while I agree rape should be filtered, I ended up agreeing with @lagrue who clearly had better arguments, which I know absorbed and will pass along, until am convinced otherwise.

 

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I just wish there were a few moderators in Region chat a couple hours a day with a perma-banhammer.  It is obvious enough when looking at region the context of the post for a human - not a bot.  And just permaban people for n1gg3r and other racist and clearly juvenile attempts at avoided bot detection spelling, directed homophobic/violent/etc posts, trolling for kickbot (type WTS for free plat...).

 No warning, no grace period, just boot them from region permanently.  It wouldn't take long for word to get out that behavior is neither acceptable nor permitted.   

Region chat (at least on Xbox One) is just a vile cesspool - one that occasionally spills over into trading and recruiting.  Unfortunate too - since it could be a great resource for new players to ask questions of more experienced players without having to see all that garbage.

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25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

And, of course society dictates what is and isn't acceptable.  How else do we decide?  

It certainly shouldn't be society, precisely because of its fickle nature. The fact that a subculture can syncretically associate itself with a particular word is evidence of that (particularly since this is a fairly recent innovation). What happens if, in another 50-75 years society deems "red" offensive? What then?

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

 It's been a slur for decades now (longer even?) and it's only come up now because some people think it's OK to use a slur to describe things they don't like, because "being edgy" or something.

As @(PS4)big_eviljak has pointed out, "gay" is not a slur. It is a word that the LGBT community has decided to apply to themselves. Can it be used in a derogatory fashion? Absolutely. But so can the word "retard" (which means to slow down, by the way). 

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Lastly, no one uses the word to describe being happy or jovial anymore, so I'm not at all concerned about that. 

You cannot make that claim at all. What if I were to say that I happen to use "gay" in such a fashion? Should I be discriminated against and ostracized because I do? As I asked in a previous thread: why should the views/opinions/sense of offense of one minority trump those of another?

Spoiler

NB: I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm merely playing devil's advocate to illustrate the hypocrisy that can arise as a result of a minority holding greater sway on the interpretation of a word devoid of any context whatsoever.

 

E2A: I also want to point out that "society" is a rather ambiguous concept as well, since it is by no means monolithic. There is "North American" society, "European" society, "Middle Eastern" society, and each society views words and ideas differently. So, which societal view takes precedence? While Warframe is made by a Canadian company (which falls under the umbrella of "North America" society), this game is played across the world. So, is it right to impose "North American" societal standards on all people? Wouldn't that impinge on an individuals rights to be who they are and result in exclusion?

Edited by (PS4)abbacephas
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5 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

 What happens if, in another 50-75 years society deems "red" offensive? What then?

..snip...

Absolutely. But so can the word "retard" (which means to slow down, by the way). 

 

  Hide contents

NB: I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm merely playing devil's advocate to illustrate the hypocrisy that can arise as a result of a minority holding greater sway on the interpretation of a word devoid of any context whatsoever.

 

Actually rather than 50-75 years ahead, you could look 50-75 years back, you certainly wouldn't want to be called red during the early 50's and the height of mccarthyism - not in the US anyway.

 

And retard is all in the pronunciation - REH-tard is to slow, REE-tard is an insult.  (only partially said in jest)

 

 

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6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

I just wish there were a few moderators in Region chat a couple hours a day with a perma-banhammer.  It is obvious enough when looking at region the context of the post for a human - not a bot.  And just permaban people for n1gg3r and other racist and clearly juvenile attempts at avoided bot detection spelling, directed homophobic/violent/etc posts, trolling for kickbot (type WTS for free plat...).

DE should help the moderators out as well.  I've talked to a few who have said that DE doesn't make it easy for them to report and ban people for these types of things.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

It certainly shouldn't be society, precisely because of its fickle nature. The fact that a subculture can syncretically associate itself with a particular word is evidence of that (particularly since this is a fairly recent innovation). What happens if, in another 50-75 years society deems "red" offensive? What then?

So, how do you decide then if not a societal decision?  Who gets to decide?  What happens when you or I don't agree with the decision?

8 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

As @(PS4)big_eviljak has pointed out, "gay" is not a slur. It is a word that the LGBT community has decided to apply to themselves. Can it be used in a derogatory fashion? Absolutely. But so can the word "retard" (which means to slow down, by the way).

By that logic, the N-word is also not a slur.  But, we know that it is used that way, as is "gay" as is "retard".  If you're fine with Kickbot censoring out the N-word (you are, aren't you?) then why not those other words?  (And, BTW, "retard" is one that gets my hackles up as well.  I've known too many people that have suffered brain injuries and then been subject to that slur as well as the common usage that adds insult to their injury that I really dislike it and have been known to ask people to curtail their usage of it online as well as IRL.)

11 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

You cannot make that claim at all. What if I were to say that I happen to use "gay" in such a fashion? Should I be discriminated against and ostracized because I do? As I asked in a previous thread: why should the views/opinions/sense of offense of one minority trump those of another?

Perhaps I used some hyperbole, but the amount of people who use that word in that way is infinitesimal.  And, no you aren't being discriminated against if Kickbot censors your use of the word.  To even make that statement downplays the real discrimination that people face from being gay in a society that devalues, reviles, and even kills them.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

NB: I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm merely playing devil's advocate to illustrate the hypocrisy that can arise as a result of a minority holding greater sway on the interpretation of a word devoid of any context whatsoever.

I really don't understand this comment at all.  I don't understand the need to play Devil's advocate - it's completely unnecessary.  I don't understand what minority is holding greater sway on anything - they aren't.  I don't understand why you believe the word is devoid of context - it never is.

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