Thoughts on the most recent patch

[Noteybook]

So after playing through Warframe after patch 6, I've come across a range of issues that I think need some attention, or at least some Q&A. I will also be posting pictures(not a lot quite yet, but as I play I'll add some more).

First of all, the skill tree setup as is, is really, really not optimal. Not in the sense that I can't max out my character-I am totally okay with the fact I can't have all my mods, or my health/energy maxed out if I want all my abilities maxed out. But in the sense that as a max level character, I cannot really do either of those things.

Let me illustrate this with a picture.

This is my Volt. I rather enjoy my Volt's abilities, so I try to max them out. However, I cannot reach all of Volt's abilities, despite being picky with my skill points(yes, there are some that are in non-skills, but if you count the ones that are not in the way of an ability you'll see I don't have enough to max out all abilities regardless). I have noticed this on my Ember, as well as my friend's Warframes.

The way the skill tree is set up is odd and really puts no emphasis on anything. There is no actual skill 'tree', to speak of. If it was a skill tree, it would look like a tree. Or a fork. I could put focus on say, the 2 or 3 abilities I care for, and throw my extra skill points into health or energy.(this is assuming there are mod slots and such between skills and their upgrades). If I wanted to tank, I could throw points into health. If I wanted to be a power hog, I could throw points into energy. I am totally okay with not having a filled tree, but only if you let me pick the branches I want.

Speaking of picking abilities, don't you think 60k in credits is rather steep for a respec? I mean, what happens if someone new joins the game and tries out a point in an ability and doesn't like it. Okay, so they think they need to upgrade it to make it good. So they level, and grind, and dutifully put skill points into that ability.. and then, finally, have it maxed out. What if they still don't like it? All that effort, and suddenly it's 60k every time you don't like an ability, 60k every time you want to try a new build and see if that works better for you. At least on a weapon you can max out the skill tree, so respecing isn't as big of a concern.

In this vein of maxed out warframes I'll introduce another problem; the two new worlds, Ceres and Eris? They're kinda hard. And not in the "Oh man what a challenge way". In the, "How are we supposed to beat this?" way. I'll illustrate one aspect of this.

I want you to count how many ancients are on this screen. I want you to also realize this is Xini on Eres, and that these guys are level 30-40. And that all players in this session are max, with max level weapons, and at least 40-50 hours of game time with mods to boot. Who had to restart this mission at least half a dozen times, and still could not complete it.

You can blame this on ineptitude of the players, but the two new planets are clearly difficult. With the new skill tree, and the higher level areas, the assumption is that the Warframes themselves would also be allowed to gain levels to match these new trials. They haven't. If Warframe is to progress, it needs future content patches. Will those areas be more difficult? Will the warframes be allowed to gain more levels, and have larger skill trees? The complexity of each Warframe needs to be addressed, because with the addition of more difficult areas, each of our frames are considerably weaker in comparison. There is strategy, and then there is frustration. Some of these new areas lend themselves to frustration, with enemies that spawn en masse and stunlock you until death. I'm looking at you, Grinders. And Chargers. And Ancients. Shock Moas, too. At least give me some invincibility frames when I'm getting up, so I don't die for reasons outside of my skill.

Speaking of Grinders,

This is really not ok. I will admit my aim is not the best but hitting these guys is such a pain in the &#!, they stun you and they can jump at you, and-at this point, me and my friends just use powers to get rid of these things because they are such a nuisance and interrupt the flow of gameplay so badly. The moment you hear that sound, you jump up somewhere you hope is high enough and focus entirely on trying to kill these things because they will get you killed so incredibly easy. Just like shockwave moas, and chargers. God help you if one spawns right behind you, and then more appear and get you stunlocked into oblivion while shooting you.

I'm also going to throw out there that when Grineer throw grenades, they REALLY need something to signify it rather than a really quick gesture. Especially since grenades can instantly down you.

Another note; were the mods on power range and weapon damage changed? I'm noticing that my Volt's Overcharge, despite having somewhere around 100~200% power range seems to really not go as far as it used to. A friend of mine has noticed their Mag, with 200% or so power range now can't pick guys up that are that far away either.

I'll add more to this, but it is late, and I am tired.

[vorling]

They nerfed power range a few patches ago so that Volt's overload couldn't clear 4-5 rooms per use I believe, not sure exactly what they did to them but they did nerf it. On the main part of the post through I have to agree with most of the points you make, the new regions feel way way too hard, infested spawn feels overpowered, grinder need to be slowed down or made easier to hit and the skill trees need to be changed. However with the Grineer throwing grenades I feel the motion is good enough as it is as long as you are watching their general area then the motion is pretty obvious.

However that is just my opinion and I wouldn't be suprised if others disagreed with it.

Edited February 1, 2013 by vorling

[Voracious]

reading stuff like this makes me wonder if its worth aiming for high level content, when it gets that difficult.

[Noteybook]

They nerfed power range a few patches ago so that Volt's overload couldn't clear 4-5 rooms per use I believe, not sure exactly what they did to them but they did nerf it. On the main part of the post through I have to agree with most of the points you make, the new regions feel way way too hard, infested spawn feels overpowered, grinder need to be slowed down or made easier to hit and the skill trees need to be changed. However with the Grineer throwing grenades I feel the motion is good enough as it is as long as you are watching their general area then the motion is pretty obvious.

However that is just my opinion and I wouldn't be suprised if others disagreed with it.

I didn't notice a few patches ago that Volt's Overload was any weaker range-wise. It was only at this patch that suddenly even with a lot of power range mods, the range is still rather insignificant. I've been noticing this mainly in the new Grineer areas, with the large rooms. It may be because there are no electronics to jump/pass through, but I have to play more and test it out.

I disagree with you on the Grineer throwing grenades because of the mass spawn of Grineer in some areas, where you can't keep on eye on all of them at once. Maybe a trail following the grenade to signal where it's landed would be a comfortable way to signal players.

reading stuff like this makes me wonder if its worth aiming for high level content, when it gets that difficult.

Well, they either have to lower the difficulty, or level up the warframes. Or hell, new rare mods, new weapons.. something so that we can match the new areas. I'm assuming that further content will increase in difficulty, though. It could actually not and then I'd look silly complaining :P

[titanoz]

For your volt mods you picked 11 Mods, we used to have 8, dont be greedy.

[Morty2989]

10, not 11.

Regardless, that's got nothing to do with how screwed up the skill trees are now.

[Blatantfool]

I'm not really a fan of how the new system indirectly nerfed Warframes that aren't upgraded.

Before you could still boost the normal skills, normally with a single exception. I liked that. If you are going to make me buy direct upgrade sort of thing at least let me have most of my actual skills.

But now, I mean hell look at Ember. If you aren't boosted all you are allowed to boost is Overheat. Why? So you can replace it with an extra bubble or two of stats?

I found that little point pretty annoying. I'm not a fan. Let me have my base skills and let me have them at a decent level. If you want to sell me power upgrades keep it at stats please.

[Wolfereign]

reading stuff like this makes me wonder if its worth aiming for high level content, when it gets that difficult.

Solo this game can be a very fun challenge. In a group however the end game content is a breeze. Grinders may look difficult but they really are not. All you have to do is run away from them then quickly turn around and shoot them while they are coming at you in a straight line trying to catch up (or use your abilities). Grinders do not have mutch health and die very easily, you just have to be smart about it. Oh and don't forget your jump melee smash does AOE damage that will kill them aswell.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Wolfereign

[Blatantfool]

I agree with Wolf.

When you play to the game's strengths in Co-Op you'll find that a Cautious Tenno can overcome anything.

[Vilmalith]

I can't put my finger on anything specifically, but update 6 has taken the fun out of it for me and has made it much more tedious. And once my nerd rage died down I did re-up and still play. But I agree with pretty much everything in the OP here.

[Morty2989]

It's not like the game has ground to a halt with the introduction of the new enemies, it's more all the fun has been replaced with sheer frustration.

Yeah, you can totally win any mission but if you gnash your teeth and wonder why your usual build sucks all of a sudden whilst doing it...why bother? We had a good thing going until update 6, maybe tone it down a bit and we can get back to that, eh?

Edited February 1, 2013 by Morty2989

[Noteybook]

Solo this game can be a very fun challenge. In a group however the end game content is a breeze. Grinders may look difficult but they really are not. All you have to do is run away from them then quickly turn around and shoot them while they are coming at you in a straight line trying to catch up (or use your abilities). Grinders do not have mutch health and die very easily, you just have to be smart about it. Oh and don't forget your jump melee smash does AOE damage that will kill them aswell.

I agree with Wolf.

When you play to the game's strengths in Co-Op you'll find that a Cautious Tenno can overcome anything.

Solo should be considered a challenge; a viable one. I should not feel like I am entirely gimped if I am playing solo. The way the new planets are in terms of difficulty, and the numerous stun enemies make it nearly impossible in some areas to solo.(I am looking at you, never-ending-shockwave-moas). And if the game is to have solo at all, it should be playable in solo. I can understand if they wanted to make it multiplayer only and gear it more towards co-op but if there is both co-op and single player there needs to be a balance so that both options are playable.

Maybe the enemy spawn rate needs reworking? I could see that as an easy enough fix.

Also I disagree with Grinders being easy. In areas with little open space they bounce around so fast it's very hard to get or lead a shot. I've found my best bet is with a Shotgun so I can get enough spread to hit it even if I am not spot on. Along with melee AOEs (heatsword).

[Blatantfool]

You've got to forgive DE on focusing more on Co-Op then Solo.

Solo is secondary. Making it work right comes later. Now they gotta pretty up everything else.

[Noteybook]

Also I've been noticing that I've been unable to join sessions with the two new bosses. I always get disconnected from the host, or if I am hosting peopel get disconnected from me. This hasn't happened anywhere else except the bosses for some reason. Anyone else been having this issue?

[DetergentPod]

Solo isn't possible in later games especially considering the 2 new planets. Being cautious or not isn't going to change anything. Lets take Eris for example, how are you going to clear it when there over 100 mobs and 10 of them are Ancient Disprutor that suck out all ur shield and energy with 1 hit not to mention you have to face 2 - 3 at a time. Then there the healer that have an aura that heals surround infested. Then there the guy that explodes and cause you to stumble. Not to mention the disruptor charges at you. Afterward there the dudes with the poison that bypasses ur shield and does considerable amount to you HP. You still want to go on about solo?

Grineer throws grenade then there the unlucky chances you're near an explosive barrel. Shockwave and those commander's MG that rips through your shield faster than you can run out of the room. Melee coming at you and grineer shooting at you with those mine dropping bots that give them shields as well. How can you be cautious? Moment one of them hit the alarm they're all coming for you.

[sambarpowder]

I can solo everything in the game right now, and none of my equipment barring my scindo are supercharged. Doing those missions in Co-op is simply just 4 crazed tenno fighting over kills and rushing to get S#&$ done. Solo is more fun, it provides a sufficient challenge. Most of the threats the above post mentioned can easily be eliminated systematically, there's just less room for going berserk. Nothing's a problem in Co-op, except perhaps the bulletvoids we call bosses.

[DetergentPod]

I can solo everything in the game right now,

key word "right now" try soloing Pluto or the 2 new planets and tell me what you think.

[Renan.Ruivo]

key word "right now" try soloing Pluto or the 2 new planets and tell me what you think.

Key word there also being "everything". Pluto is included in "everything" so..

But i'm out of my element here. I have been grinding and farming affinity for all my gear on Earth and haven't been anywhere above rank 30.

[DetergentPod]

Key word there also being "everything". Pluto is included in "everything" so..

But i'm out of my element here. I have been grinding and farming affinity for all my gear on Earth and haven't been anywhere above rank 30.

Even the two new planets and every mission in them even the boss?

[sambarpowder]

Yes, I can solo all the levels on the new planets too, the Phorid boss was difficult but I did eventually nail it. I mean it when I say the game's easy and there's little to complain about.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Crossflip

[Renan.Ruivo]

I'm a veteran EVE Online player. And buddy... the thing's these eyes have seen...

Let's share some info on EVE. It's a monthly fee game.. you P2P. Everything you buy, was made by someone else. Someone real, there are no NPC vendors.

If you die, you lose everything but the skills you have earned in real time (and even that can be lost if you die without an upgraded "clone"). Those losses can be a few hours of in-game currency farming, or several weeks of gameplay investment. Gone in an instant.

PVP is there at all times, can come from any place, and your only alert is something called "Local Chat" where you can see if there's an enemy in your system with you. If you see one, you can "dock up" and get safe.

Then, there's something called "Wormhole Space". In that place, there is no "local chat". You can never know who is in there with you.. cloaked up on a ship preying and stalking you.

In that wormhole space, live the most vicious AI for NPC "mobs" you'll find in any game. The Sleepers. They can kill your most expensive and well fit ship in a moment's screw-up.. if you don't get ganged up by hidden hostile players before that.

And yet, people found ways to thrive in that harsh, hardcore environment. And i don't mean groups of players (although that makes it easier). I mean people living as hermits in that place.. farming those "Sleepers" for their valuable loot, avoiding getting killed by them with their sometimes hundreds of real dollars worth ships and dodging enemy players. Not for days, not for weeks. For years on end.

Why am i telling you this.. i don't know... But i believe it is to show you that there are some crazy, obssesive, dedicated and pretty patient people out there that are willing to take on any odds and thrive in situations and challenges other people find insurmountable.

We shouldn't gauge the difficulty on our game on these people's ability to do these things, because such things are not expected of the average player. So if one or two players can, in fact, solo everything, it doesn't mean that something doesn't need to be re-tweeked and balanced again. But then again, if something needs to be tweeked or not is not for us to decide, only discuss, because we don't have the metrics that DE have. Still, i'm pretty confident that the current situation won't last.

Edited February 3, 2013 by ruivoml

[DetergentPod]

Yes well that is their decision and they sticked with it. The whole reason people are making all these threads and complaint about this is because some people actually care about this game. If we were to just deal with this many players would quit and this game would be dead. Why would you kill a game just because you won't listen to the players? That is a stupid reason. People makes up a community and Player make up a game. The game itself is nothing without the player. True compare to most games this game is pretty fair. But what is fair? That is just a vague word that is being thrown around. So you can say whatever you want but if the Dev don't listen to the player and find a way to balance out between what player wants and making a profit this game won't go far.

[Renan.Ruivo]

I'm pretty sure that, some aspects of Update 6 notwithstanding, Digital Extremes has done a remarkable job on listening to the players.

[Morty2989]

Yes, I can solo all the levels on the new planets too, the Phorid boss was difficult but I did eventually nail it. I mean it when I say the game's easy and there's little to complain about.

Yeah, no. I'm calling shenanigans on this one. If thee of us with level 30 frames with level 30 equipment couldn't beat Xini on Eris, there's no way you did it solo. Doesn't matter how systematic or methodical you are, there's just too many high level infected.

[MEsoJD]

My frames for some reason feel heavy and I cant jump while spriting...