This Game is Boring

[tnccs215]

38 minutes ago, Unus said:

Perhaps something on-par with the mission restriction system that some Sorties run with? Advanced detectors that automatically sniff out anything above a certain conclave number or Damage amount and lock-out entry, make us enter with only a modest Arsenal as opposed to the Kuva-Slaying tool-kit.

I agree with that - the issue is that when the only way for a game to challenge you is to remove all certain base upgrades, than maybe those upgrades shouldn't exist in the first place - or shouldn't be considered as just "options" when they are clearly universally used. 

The thing with damage - any damage to be honest - is that it is relative by definition: in practical terms, doing 10 damage to a 1000 hp enemy ends up being exactly the same as doing 10k damage to a 1mil hp enemy (barring progression value and bug number fever, of course). Therefore, a weapon's power is defined by its average time to kill (ttk) a certain enemy more than its hard value damage. 

The issue with Warframe is less that it has weapons that deals ludicrous amounts of damage, and more the fact it came to have some weapons that deal such damage, and the fact it treats those weapons are exceptions, not rules. 

That is, powercreep led to a shift in balance, but only to some weapons. The end result is that DE tries to both allow the non-grossly overpowered tools to be usable, while also accounting for the existence of the stupidly powerful ones (and God forbid you nerf. because for DE and too many in the community, "overpowered" is just another playstyle). Enter: invincibility fases, that effectively level all weapons TTK without actually addressing their core power differences.

Making matters worse, powercreep leads obligatorily to level creep: when the damage of a weapon increases, the enemy level at which it has a TTK equal to those of lesser weapons also rises. In the end, powercreep means only that the numbers of your screen are bigger: you damage, the enemies health, the enemy damage... Well, all except those of your health. And that means the only thing that truly changes is that you get killed much, much faster. 

Of course, DE had the brilliant idea of also creating enormous durability gaps between frames according to their kits, which means newer and reworked (or already stupidly powerful) frames are more than adapted to the current balance paradigm, while others.... Aren't. I mean, compare Oberon's current durability to that of Hydroid. 

This is why the so called "great squish" is the best solution to the balance  issue. In terms of damage, whether you nerf weapons until all are at somewhat equal level, or buff them until the same happens while making higher level enemies more acceptable is irrelevant. But the fact your health doesn't scale, while enemy damage does, means that raising the average enemy level will lead to survival issues. So, everything must be rebalanced, from player damage, to enemy damage, to durability increasing tools.

At the very least, enemy damage scaling must be reduced, and weapons must have a somewhat similar power level according to their MR and construction requirements. 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Is it though? Because quite frankly, I don't think they are. Dark Souls' bosses have extremely complex AI and move sets - and while I admit the latter might go a bit  to waste due to the extent of our parkoor capabilities and our privilege not to go full melee, they would still be a nice bonus - and complex, intelligent (but telegraphed) bosses is something Warframe would truly benefit from. 

As far as I understand, DS bosses aren't really that much different from, say, Tera boses in terms of complexity. Is how they are designed is what matters - their timing, their movesets, the animations and openings. Intelligence-wise they just use long-range attacks when you're far, close combat when you're close, chase you to perform an attack etc. There's nothing too complex about the AI itself. Take Arthorias for example - he's just mashing the same sequence of attacks over and over again buffing from time to time.

In case of Warframe the problem is (same as with quests btw), complicated bosses take too much time to make and offer too little replayability. It all boils down to in-game motivational structure. If you have a piece of content in the game that isn't incentivized to be engaged with - people will only play what's incentivized and in the most efficient way possible. People who claim that games should be played "for fun" are not the same people you see in random que. And when they do get in random ques - they play just like everybody else. Which in case of Warframe is parcour simulator to a fixed objective and then to the extraction... but I digress.

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Then again, those things are also present on huge mmorpg bosses you mentioned. The good ones at least. So I don't think there is that much of an enormous divide between the two alternatives... Unless I'm seeing something wrong. 

 The thing with warframe bosses is that the more complicated they are, the more they are tied to their arena tile. And it seems like this would be the general direction of Warframe boss design from now on (Lephantis, Kela, Ambulas, Razorback. Raptor, Tyl Regor). You can't just spawn them on any tile, so it limits their use in the game. The thing about mmorpg bosses is that they are meant to be reusable and self-contained. Their strenght (healthpool and damage) is also closely tied to the gear\level system. But since DE appearently build the game to be accessible from the lowest mastery rank possible... ugh.. yeah, scaling with gear doesn't exist in this game. It could be done, but I can't see it happening anytime soon.

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I suppose what I mean is that, removing the genre based terminology, what we need is big, strong, sexytough, and above all, telegraphed enemies. 

Also self-contained. We actually have one boss like that - it's Shadow Stalker. But the nullifying ability makes you unable to use spacemagic, which turns stalker himself into a pretty boring bulletsponge with resistances. You could also add Juggernaut to that, but spike shotgun is a really bad idea IMO. It's like trying to kill a Scorch through the barrel of his Ignis, but worse - you can CC the Scorch.

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I underline telegraphed because Warframe has a very annoying habit of throwing stuff at you with no previous notice and no way for you to predict it. The consequence is clear: You survive by using cheap tricks, and when you die, it isn't your fault. Attacks that you see coming, however how little, and actually have a chance to protect yourself, are what make a reactive game rewarding. Without it, though, it just feels cheap. 

-_- Jetpack grineer and toxic ...anything.

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

the new Nox enemy

Another instakill? Does it have an invincibility phase as well?

Edited June 29, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Unus]

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

nah, that's a half measure and most players would probably complain about it. Damage 3.0 has been in the talks for a while.

(Stereotyped accent) Zer comesa point in every medical professional's career where ze must inflict pain upon ze patient before they can get better. One does not wrap a tumor lump in a couple bandages and give it a kizz to go away. However, if ze tumor lump iz in a zenzitive area where it cannot be excised. . .(pulls elastic medical glove taut with an ending snap) you must pump the area full of chemicals until the offending lump chokes and dies! For sure, the patient will be zick for a time during the process, but, with ze right dosages over a course of time, ze cure can be administered with little chance of fatal damage.

(End Stereotype)

While I do not agree that removing upgrades of any kind would be healthy (A) they are the reason I'm still majorly internally attached to the game aside from story and B) They have become both an economic staple and one of the few reasons to loot anywhere, there would be money-back screeches for miles on the forums) I do VERY MUCH agree we need more specialized "Ultra Heavy" enemies to keep the gratifying flow of risk and reward going. Currently, Kela and Sent Stalk sit at the "pinnacle" of what Warframe threats COULD be, Digital need only reach out and grasp it. I've done quite a bit of work over in my Moshpit to create "Challange Threat" enemies, but, in the end, it's Digital who needs to think about this for the future.

 

Fingers crossed that they don't think of it at a point where they end up like Game's Workshop and their whole Warhammer fiasco going on.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Unus
Dem it, forgot the other quote.

[Unus]

53 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I agree with that - the issue is that when the only way for a game to challenge you is to remove all certain base upgrades, than maybe those upgrades shouldn't exist in the first place - or shouldn't be considered as just "options" when they are clearly universally used. 

The thing with damage - any damage to be honest - is that it is relative by definition: in practical terms, doing 10 damage to a 1000 hp enemy ends up being exactly the same as doing 10k damage to a 1mil hp enemy (barring progression value and bug number fever, of course). Therefore, a weapon's power is defined by its average time to kill (ttk) a certain enemy more than its hard value damage. 

The issue with Warframe is less that it has weapons that deals ludicrous amounts of damage, and more the fact it came to have some weapons that deal such damage, and the fact it treats those weapons are exceptions, not rules. 

That is, powercreep led to a shift in balance, but only to some weapons. The end result is that DE tries to both allow the non-grossly overpowered tools to be usable, while also accounting for the existence of the stupidly powerful ones (and God forbid you nerf. because for DE and too many in the community, "overpowered" is just another playstyle). Enter: invincibility fases, that effectively level all weapons TTK without actually addressing their core power differences.

Making matters worse, powercreep leads obligatorily to level creep: when the damage of a weapon increases, the enemy level at which it has a TTK equal to those of lesser weapons also rises. In the end, powercreep means only that the numbers of your screen are bigger: you damage, the enemies health, the enemy damage... Well, all except those of your health. And that means the only thing that truly changes is that you get killed much, much faster. 

Of course, DE had the brilliant idea of also creating enormous durability gaps between frames according to their kits, which means newer and reworked (or already stupidly powerful) frames are more than adapted to the current balance paradigm, while others.... Aren't. I mean, compare Oberon's current durability to that of Hydroid. 

This is why the so called "great squish" is the best solution to the balance  issue. In terms of damage, whether you nerf weapons until all are at somewhat equal level, or buff them until the same happens while making higher level enemies more acceptable is irrelevant. But the fact your health doesn't scale, while enemy damage does, means that raising the average enemy level will lead to survival issues. So, everything must be rebalanced, from player damage, to enemy damage, to durability increasing tools.

At the very least, enemy damage scaling must be reduced, and weapons must have a somewhat similar power level according to their MR and construction requirements. 

 

 

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I'm gonna be honest: DE should stop pretend to try and make "engaging" bosses (read: invincibility fases and cumbersome mechanics) and just make a good ol' bullet sponge that is actually challenging. Like, just admit you have waaaaay too overpowered weapons and take them into account. Specially now the Daikyu has a goddamn 500 base damage and the óptico is... That. 

It is true that ambulas, though featuring some of the listed mechanics, is an acceptable boss - much like Kela de Thayn - but frankly, maybe a good Dark Souls style thing would be nice. 

Favorite boss of all time in any game is Terramorphous the Invincible. What a fun tentacle sponge he is.

Real bosses would be nice. I would even appreciate bosses you have to work to get to fight. Make them tough and time consuming with real rewards exclusive to the boss.

Say a fat Grineer giant spider lady who you have to complete a number of Sabotage missions before you lure her fat butt out.

Being able to use enviornmental traps against said bosses would be nice too

[tnccs215]

10 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

As far as I understand, DS bosses aren't really that much different from, say, Tera boses in terms of complexity. Is how they are designed is what matters - their timing, their movesets, the animations and openings. Intelligence-wise they just use long-range attacks when you're far, close combat when you're close, chase you to perform an attack etc. There's nothing too complex about the AI itself. Take Arthorias for example - he's just mashing the same sequence of attacks over and over again buffing from time to time.

AI intelligence is a tricky matter, I admit. I should have had that what I meant by intelligent I actually meant "seem" intelligent - and, more importantly, make the player feel they are beating an intelligent being. Or, at least, a force to be reckoned with. Not the embodiment of Grana Padano. 

 

12 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

In case of Warframe the problem is (same as with quests btw), complicated bosses take too much time to make and offer too little replayability. It all boils down to in-game motivational structure. If you have a piece of content in the game that isn't incentivized to be engaged with - people will only play what's incentivized and in the most efficient way possible. People who claim that games should be played "for fun" are not the same people you see in random que. And when they do get in random ques - they play just like everybody else. Which in case of Warframe is parcour simulator to a fixed objective and then to the extraction... but I digress.

I do fully agree with that - and that is why I  subscribe and add to @A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n's thesis. The game is, from the get go, designed to make rewards your only motivation. How can we expect people to care for anything else, when they were conducted not to? 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 The thing with warframe bosses is that the more complicated they are, the more they are tied to their arena tile. And it seems like this would be the general direction of Warframe boss design from now on (Lephantis, Kela, Ambulas, Razorback. Raptor, Tyl Regor). You can't just spawn them on any tile, so it limits their use in the game. The thing about mmorpg bosses is that they are meant to be reusable and self-contained. Their strenght (healthpool and damage) is also closely tied to the gear\level system. But since DE appearently build the game to be accessible from the lowest mastery rank possible... ugh.. yeah, scaling with gear doesn't exist in this game. It could be done, but I can't see it happening anytime soon.

I was actually comparing DS bosses with MMORPG bosses in the paragraph you quoted. Regardless, you do bring interesting points. However, I don't believe self containment - or lack thereoff - is the biggest issue. While it does reduce their possible usage, using the arena as a boss itself isn't a terrible idea (specially since by relegating the boss to one well known space, the patching can be much more intricate), and it prevents making the boss feel recycled. More importantly, however, even for arena dependent bosses, Warframe ones leave a lot to be desired.

The issue with scaling gear in Warframe is that there are, ironically, not enough "direct upgrade" weapons - except, maybe, in melee. When you have two weapons from the same class that feel very differently (therefore attracting different people), but in which one is objectively and directly better than another, the end result is that someone will have their favorite gun be outclassed by another. 

Warframe weapon design mirrors much more that of, say, Mass Effect 3 over your usual MMO, in which there aren't exactly high tier and low tier weapons: just weapons that cater to different tastes and different niches. Of course, where Mass Effect 3 managed some progression by having weapon levels, Warframe has... Mods. And we all know how good a progression system that is. 

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Self-contained. We actually have one boss like that - it's Shadow Stalker. But the nullifying ability makes you unable to use spacemagic, which turns stalker himself into a pretty boring bulletsponge with resistances. You could also add Juggernaut to that, but spike shotgun is a really bad idea IMO. It's like trying to kill a Scorch through the barrel of his Ignis, but worse - you can CC the Scorch.

I personally find the "damage resistance" thing to be MUCH more annoying. Would prefer he just had a sh!tton of health. Dispel is annoying, and it would be better for him simply to have diminishing returns to powers - but it is also, at its core, a band-aid fix for the fact we are stupidly powerful

The problem I have with the Jug is one I have with many enemies in this game:terrible telegraphing, and terrible audio-visual feedback. It does not have enough "warning frames", the direction and reach of the attacks are poorly transmitted, and the worst offender:it doesn't feel like it's hurting me, when it is. That's an enormous issue I have with this game - I have to look at my hp to know I'm being affected. 

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 

Another instakill? Does it have an invincibility phase as well?

I admit I'm basing myself from its showcase on the last devstream - but I doubt DE changed him a lot. 

Localized invincibility: bearable tho. Headshots to kill. 

Issue is its attacks. Enormous toxin aoe bubbles that connect to you and would be a perfect candidate to obey to the "slow fireball" archetype (I. E. Learn to dodge or face the consequences), but nstead DE made it another spamming enemy that ignores your bloody shields and gives you no room to fight back beyond the traditional "cheese resist and kill it fast". 

1 hour ago, Unus said:

While I do not agree that removing upgrades of any kind would be healthy (A) they are the reason I'm still majorly internally attached to the game aside from story and B) They have become both an economic staple and one of the few reasons to loot anywhere, there would be money-back screeches for miles on the forums) I do VERY MUCH agree we need more specialized "Ultra Heavy" enemies to keep the gratifying flow of risk and reward going. Currently, Kela and Sent Stalk sit at the "pinnacle" of what Warframe threats COULD be, Digital need only reach out and grasp it. I've done quite a bit of work over in my Moshpit to create "Challange Threat" enemies, but, in the end, it's Digital who needs to think about this for the future.

 

Fingers crossed that they don't think of it at a point where they end up like Game's Workshop and their whole Warhammer fiasco going on.

 

I don't think upgrades of any kind should be removed - only extensively reworked around the augment paradigm - but yeah, I agree it would be pretty much impossible to do it. The game is too deep down the rabbit hole. The best they can do is to try and work with it. Power creep the weaker weapons and frames up to the top ones, and then add "complex enemies"(Tm) to try and add challenge. 

Though your ideas are better than any design they have implemented so far. 

[tnccs215]

@AperoBeltaTwo I'm actually gonna think more about weapon/gear progression. Have some ideas regarding that. 

@Unus what's up with Warhammer? 

Edited June 29, 2017 by tnccs215

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

@AperoBeltaTwo I'm actually gonna think more about weapon/gear progression. Have some ideas regarding that. 

@Unus what's up with Warhammer? 

Well, regarding weapon/gear progression, I think it should be separate from overall Mastery progression. I mean, mastery progression (by that, I mean XP/affinity progression) should also contribute to weapon/gear progression, but mastery progression should encompass all aspects of gameplay, as previously mentioned. I think there should be an actually weapon/gear progression system as well, and I think forma should factor into it. Think of it as a COD-esque prestige system. Forma should reset the rank, as it currently does, but it should do more than just allow you to polarize mod slots. It should somehow improve the weapon, whether functionally, visually, or both. Same with your Warframe, companions, and archwings.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Localized invincibility: bearable tho. Headshots to kill. 

Issue is its attacks. Enormous toxin aoe bubbles that connect to you and would be a perfect candidate to obey to the "slow fireball" archetype (I. E. Learn to dodge or face the consequences), but nstead DE made it another spamming enemy that ignores your bloody shields and gives you no room to fight back beyond the traditional "cheese resist and kill it fast". 

Good God. As if kuva guardians weren't enough.

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

The issue with scaling gear in Warframe is that there are, ironically, not enough "direct upgrade" weapons - except, maybe, in melee. When you have two weapons from the same class that feel very differently (therefore attracting different people), but in which one is objectively and directly better than another, the end result is that someone will have their favorite gun be outclassed by another. 

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

@AperoBeltaTwo I'm actually gonna think more about weapon/gear progression. Have some ideas regarding that. 

@Unus what's up with Warhammer? 

 The best idea I personally managed to come up with so far on the topic of damage scaling is team kill-combo counter that slowly decays with time. Not hit-combo counter like with melee weapons, but a counter that increases overall damage of all warframes in the session (weapons and abilities) through the number of enemies killed. That should counter enemy scaling almost indefinitely, at least in terms of raw damage and would allow us to use something except melee weapons for a change. Not 100% sure if it's a good idea tho. 

 

 

[Unus]

2 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

@AperoBeltaTwo I'm actually gonna think more about weapon/gear progression. Have some ideas regarding that. 

@Unus what's up with Warhammer? 

The organization's miniature company practiced bad business, poor balancing, and blatant favoritism for years until it's profits massively tanked. Suddenly, they started listening to the community, working through problems, and even began showing off characters created by the community. By the time they tried though? The entire Board of Directors had been fired and replaced, profit margins had dropped by 50%, and a significant portion of the community had thrown up it's hands and declared them persona-non grata. They will NEVER recover to their former financial well-being, but, they still cling to life.

(I HATE having to use a reference from there, but, the actual report wouldn't let me take the image)

While I don not believe that we are THAT far gone, I don't want to wake up some day to find our loveable company faces living in boxes and replaced by who-knows what while Warframe lives on in the form of "reference deals", novels, and as a broken shadow of what was. I've been a part of this world for to long to see it's fate entwined with a franchise I still love, even as the battered and bleeding midget it has become.

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

AI intelligence is a tricky matter, I admit. I should have had that what I meant by intelligent I actually meant "seem" intelligent - and, more importantly, make the player feel they are beating an intelligent being. Or, at least, a force to be reckoned with. Not the embodiment of Grana Padano. 

 

I do fully agree with that - and that is why I  subscribe and add to @A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n's thesis. The game is, from the get go, designed to make rewards your only motivation. How can we expect people to care for anything else, when they were conducted not to? 

I was actually comparing DS bosses with MMORPG bosses in the paragraph you quoted. Regardless, you do bring interesting points. However, I don't believe self containment - or lack thereoff - is the biggest issue. While it does reduce their possible usage, using the arena as a boss itself isn't a terrible idea (specially since by relegating the boss to one well known space, the patching can be much more intricate), and it prevents making the boss feel recycled. More importantly, however, even for arena dependent bosses, Warframe ones leave a lot to be desired.

The issue with scaling gear in Warframe is that there are, ironically, not enough "direct upgrade" weapons - except, maybe, in melee. When you have two weapons from the same class that feel very differently (therefore attracting different people), but in which one is objectively and directly better than another, the end result is that someone will have their favorite gun be outclassed by another. 

Warframe weapon design mirrors much more that of, say, Mass Effect 3 over your usual MMO, in which there aren't exactly high tier and low tier weapons: just weapons that cater to different tastes and different niches. Of course, where Mass Effect 3 managed some progression by having weapon levels, Warframe has... Mods. And we all know how good a progression system that is. 

I personally find the "damage resistance" thing to be MUCH more annoying. Would prefer he just had a sh!tton of health. Dispel is annoying, and it would be better for him simply to have diminishing returns to powers - but it is also, at its core, a band-aid fix for the fact we are stupidly powerful

The problem I have with the Jug is one I have with many enemies in this game:terrible telegraphing, and terrible audio-visual feedback. It does not have enough "warning frames", the direction and reach of the attacks are poorly transmitted, and the worst offender:it doesn't feel like it's hurting me, when it is. That's an enormous issue I have with this game - I have to look at my hp to know I'm being affected. 

I admit I'm basing myself from its showcase on the last devstream - but I doubt DE changed him a lot. 

Localized invincibility: bearable tho. Headshots to kill. 

Issue is its attacks. Enormous toxin aoe bubbles that connect to you and would be a perfect candidate to obey to the "slow fireball" archetype (I. E. Learn to dodge or face the consequences), but nstead DE made it another spamming enemy that ignores your bloody shields and gives you no room to fight back beyond the traditional "cheese resist and kill it fast". 

I don't think upgrades of any kind should be removed - only extensively reworked around the augment paradigm - but yeah, I agree it would be pretty much impossible to do it. The game is too deep down the rabbit hole. The best they can do is to try and work with it. Power creep the weaker weapons and frames up to the top ones, and then add "complex enemies"(Tm) to try and add challenge. 

Though your ideas are better than any design they have implemented so far. 

Also, better? I'm not sure if they might be truely better. Maybe more intricate, but, certainly not balanced and tested. Maybe some day. . .

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Good God. As if kuva guardians weren't enough.

 The best idea I personally managed to come up with so far on the topic of damage scaling is team kill-combo counter that slowly decays with time. Not hit-combo counter like with melee weapons, but a counter that increases overall damage of all warframes in the session (weapons and abilities) through the number of enemies killed. That should counter enemy scaling almost indefinitely, at least in terms of raw damage and would allow us to use something except melee weapons for a change. Not 100% sure if it's a good idea tho. 

 

 

I think I misunderstood you. When you meant those mmo bosses have their health/damage linked to the leveling system, you meant "Boss 'X'  is locked for loadouts with total power between 'Y'  and 'Z' values"?

Kinda like there used to be with the conclave value? Mh... Maybe that should be really implemented - specially since such a value allows for progressive power creep tied to the leveling system and all.  

Regardless, you do bring up a good topic: gear scaling. To be honest, while I think simply streamlining and fully reworking the current game so that infinite scaling doesn't even need to be a thing -  and MR and progression actually matter a little - I think your idea kinda fits nicely into the current game paradigm. It certainly would allow for CC, melee and covert lethality to not be the only methods to go up the levels. Hell, it might even allow a nerf to the most hardcore CC abilities around, so that people actually get to play a bit instead of spamming the latest fashion of parmesan cc

Edited June 29, 2017 by tnccs215

[tnccs215]

35 minutes ago, Unus said:

Also, better? I'm not sure if they might be truely better. Maybe more intricate, but, certainly not balanced and tested. Maybe some day. . .

I honestly don't think balancing and testing is that hard. It takes time and care, but it isn't hard. Numerical values are easily changed. The fact DE has such an enormous aversion to it says loads either of them, or the situation they find themselves in. 

Also: good God, that seems awful. I really, really hope Warframe doesn't go that road. 

[Raikhaos]

Im on the verge of ditching warframe for the 2 gb game Master x Master that ive been playing. The grind in warframe is tiring and not fun at all, MR is a pain in the &#! ur supposed to enjoy leveling up weapons and using them, not just going to an xp farm to later discard the crap. The player movement is ninja like how it was intended to be but in this game the movement is very pointless flying all over the place, the fps Warface i play has more enjoyable player movement and it isnt even that complex. Snipers don't feel like snipers, and weapons dont really feel unique either cuz at the end of the day ur gonna load all the same mods on that shet. The add friend system is still crap too after so many years.

[P0Pz]

To the boss point,...

I would like to have a boss 'typ', which got a looot health. And a lot health regain. Melee 'Cleaving' swing hits, in a 180° Cone in front of him.

This boss should perma cast at least 2/3 skills. 1 boss skill that should help him to keep his health up, 1 skill able to call his personal guards, 1skill to Damage and Debuff in a AoE in front of him or arround the target next to him.

 

 

This video shows a low lvl dungoun boss. The 2nd highest in this Dungoun. (Every dungoun got 3 bosses and a main boss, every boss needs another strat to be successful).

Here you see 1 Assasine, running into the room full of enemies and the boss. Since he got highest evasion he is the one "pulling". He will lure mobs and boss to a outside of the room to lower the danger of party getting hit/damaged by all enemies in room from all sides and for ever.

So he pulls boss out. As soon he does, THE tanker atacks the boss, to pull his agro/attention to him. 

As soon this happens, the Assasine will activate his stealth. All following enemies get off him and run back to theire guardian spots.

Now the 'Tanker' is solo fighting/atacking the boss to build up a 'Agro pool' !!  The 'Tanker', will directly move to another side arround the boss to let the boss turn to him and while the rest of the party-members will look now at the back of the boss.

This secures the party from this boss Damage & Debuff AoE skill, just to hit the tanker. A boss is or should be able to kill in minimum of 5 hits, a massive tanker.

This calls in the 'Healer'. The healer will always try to heal as late as possible. Why? Bc healing generates a 'agro pool also'. Which leads to this: a healer healing to fast and to much, can take away the agro from the 'Tanker'. Which will now lets the boss go agro vs the healer which is most over a 1-2 hit kill.

To lower healing agro, other party members will try to 'share' or lower the healing agro. They use 'healing over time' on the 'Tanker' or drop some healing pots (similar to healing pizzas). This allows now the Healer to heal less and the 'Tanker' can build up more and faster his agro pool.

After a given time, the 'Tanker' will give the party a sign,.."atack all now". He will point out with this "i can hold his agro, gogo".

Other members in the party can also take away the agro from the tanker if they do to fast to much damage. Also here, the boss will switch to atack this member now. Ect. The first sign that the tanker loses his agro to someone in the party is, when the boss suddenly starts to turn arround. Sin's will directly use theire stealth skill to get off theire agro pool. Other members will try to evade doind much damage now to the boss so the Tanker can take back the attention. A Healer is 'forbidden' to heal now any other members. Just the tanker.  

If the healer would now heal everyone getting hit by the boss, which will be 1-2 hits most over...which would lead to the point, that the healer now needs to heal much more often then on a 'Tanker-..the healer will take the agro...party in big trouble...

Bc of all that, the one 'Tanking' will fight at the beginning solo vs the boss. He will build up a agro pool to make sure HE will keep it on him at all costs.

The boss will "call in" from time to time his personal guards (here, hords of lil spiders), which will atack 'the next targets' to them. NO AGRO pool possible.

The healer and The Tanker are bound to each one. Falls one, falls the other one (boss agro). Both can not realy help vs guards. The team has to protect them by focusing the so called 'adds'.

This dramatical situations repeat until the boss dies. Even as a low lvl boss and only 2nd highest in this dungoun, will need at least 10-30min deppending on your gear ect. 

 

Ofc for WF this typ of boss has to be changed/tweaked. But this seems 1 way to add something totaly different. With a lot strat and teamwork needed.

 

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 6/29/2017 at 1:19 AM, DrBorris said:

DE should be able to do that on their own, bringing in a publisher is completely unnecessary. 

Hydroid, Kubrows, Mods, Focus schools, Archwings, Zephyr, most bosses, level design, damage model, parcour / movement, Rivens, Atlas, Titania, Wukong, every other sentinel save for Carrier, dropships, relics, raids and prolly a whole bunch of other junk I forget to mention, clearly shows DE is not able to do it on their own.

They keep bringing unfinished garbage to the table and instead of fine-tuning, they prefer to just get on with a new frame.  

It is such a shame that by now after all the money they have made, they can't find resources to actually mold this game into a AAA game as it could have been.

[P0Pz]

The problem imo is that they bring good mechanics/ gameplay content and then say okay cool...we gona fine tune/improve it later on after x, y & z. But in reality they leave it as it is bc they are spilted to so much different other content they "find cool to have ingame". They simple losing the focus and time to finish a point to say -THIS is it. Next

Nope. Instead 'a bit adding/tweaking ' okay next 'a bit tweaking  here & there' ....rinse repeat... while also creating stuff which are not 100% and added to the game... This increases over and over the tweaking circle of  rinse & repeat. Endless string...

Sometimes, most of us know that, when you create/design creative stuff, you either 'waste a lot of time' to create something, more as you would like bc you gone way to deep into details or you waste time by starting different stuff; do a bit here, get a idea for another ppen project you already created and jump back to this project, while working there, you suddenly have again a idea u want to do at a totaly other project and go there and tweak it...

2nd way imo we have in WF. A lot of good ideas. A lot wanted to bring in but finishing something gets harder the more open projects you have/generate. This brings in more and more pressure, builded up by themselfe. Focusing is very hard if you have a lot open projects to do. 

The last thing you want to do, before finishing your very first projects, is to add another fresh 'cool idea' that poped up in your mind, which could be absolut cool AF... but it would also torp your rest of your open projects on top .

Sometimes you have to STOP. And go back finishing open projects until it's done! And then keep going up the other projects... 

- They should know, a unfinished project InGame, coming to the final stage, is most over also in the end a complete fresh content handed out.

While delivering the 'user' the maximum out of it. You need no new content to offer somerthing new. Completing a content leads also to new 'user' experiences/expression in a higher quality overall.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by P0Pz

[Iccotak]

@P0Pz Exactly, Finish What you started Before you go off doing something else.
@Vrykolacas82 YES.This game absolutely has the potential be be of AAA quality but they spend more resources adding new stuff and not enough Polishing and Refining.
Focus on the core Gameplay design and experience.
Perfect that, so then you have the formula down for the rest of the game, and then move onto the next feature.

Understand that there are other AAA titles that will take what Warframe has right now (like Destiny and Anthem) and surpass it. We need to push this game to be better.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Iccotak

[Iccotak]

So after all we have discussed, lets do two lists.
1. What are the top things you Like/Appreciate/Love about Warframe
2. What Existing Gameplay Aspects & Features should be top Priority right now? 

Let's start with Five for each and then we'll expand from there.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Iccotak

[P0Pz]

42 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

@P0Pz Exactly, Finish What you started Before you go off doing something else.

Looooong patch list we had...

Lets look at the real core game improvments...

 

- Earth tiles; looks better now. Still miss natural behauvior. Wind? Grass/flowers/ trees and leafs swinging in a natural way. While wind dynamical changes and also the direction of the 'things' moved by it. Light effects is not that great. Sun blinding effects? Sun light dynamicly move through tree leafs to the ground?... not finished...needs real improvments..still.

 

- New earth animal 'sounds'...well they sound good. Do not get me wrong. GJ DE. But sorry.... WHERE are this animals? None there...empty natural area...sounds can not replace the objects, which generates the sounds. It can increase the illusion of "more objects" as you can see, YES, but it will fail to keep up the illusion of objects been there without any visuality of even 1 of it. You see nowhere 1 bird flying..no monkeys..none..yet you hear them at all given time. This is something i am realy missing. Deeper thoughts and real improvments...again not finished... needs real improvments...still.

 

- Next is the improvement of the "surprise surprise" we have 2 hands system... well GOOD that we have it..not that others got it like 13 years ago but yeees improvment..somehow...

But..DE... i can still not equip, 1 shield with any 1h weapon (melee/gun) ?? ... So still feels and is unfinished.  Not finished... needs improvments...still.

 

- Chating durring loading screen..

What can i say... "it was great as long it lasted". I was happy about it! Then a quickfix patch came..zack-boom... it was history before even hitting 24h Ingame...

So either it did not work as 'intented' or/and was part of the loading-screen freezes as a side effect... i dunno...

All i know it's gone already...so improvment yes but then improvment taken away again...find no words for this... just again: Not finished... needs improvments,...still.

 

So what did we get after all in this biiig patch at the core game points? 

Your thoughts are right... as much...as we can see animals, on earth tiles, creating sounds and moving/flying arround...

[P0Pz]

2 hours ago, Iccotak said:

So after all we have discussed, lets do two lists.
1. What are the top things you Like/Appreciate/Love about Warframe
2. What Existing Gameplay Aspects & Features should be top Priority right now? 

Let's start with Five for each and then expand from there.

 

I like a lot in WF. I can't make a 5step list. It is to much. And most over they have the same overall 'weight' of each point for me.

I would not play WF or write here in Forum, if i did not like it that much. I love WF.

 

The negatives...well easy spoken out. Hard to fix at some points.

 

I don't like it that pps say when something is not working right, 'i have a solution but it is a bandaid for the current prob' for Frames/abilities/weapons/...

They all run into illusions. Ignoring most over the real prob behind all. Just to make it easy for the Dev's so the effect/object with problems can 'currently' work again.

 If something does not work...replace it...if something works but needs a lil kick to be fine...tweak it.

 

Okay... My wish list of improvments for WF:

 

1) Enemies/Damage scaling/ Abilities / Frames/ Weapons... 'Los Grandos Rebalancing'.

1.1*) And DE pleaseeee end players frustration about weapon tiers... Some Players can't see behind the hidden walls... Give weapons a visualy info: 

Rec. Lvl: xxx (recommended lvl range

1.2*) Smarter/interesting acting enemie AI, with different varies learning from us how we act most over and trying to counter it with 'skill' instead just standing arround doing unlimited scaling damage.

 

 

2) Movment 2.0 original version. I joined WF bc of THIS video showing it...🤐

 

 

3) Dynamic acting Suroundings and natural/unnatural objects/effects in Tiles working with the 'ninja movment' in a much more deeper thoughts. Exc. A frame is 'sliding' behind a 'object', as soon he leaves this object he gets a 1sec stealth and 1sec blur effect (no accurate aiming for enemies), hits durring object leaving stealth 100% ignored and motion blur 65% hit(s) evading. Entering on natural areas differently surroundings adds passivly "ground bonus or negatives".

Exc. Frame slides inside/over a bush. He now gains 'camouflage-effect' which grands him within a radius a bit evasion and not all enemies at longer distance can see him. A ninja "always" uses his suroundings to his advantages. Give it a gogo! More Dynamic acting contents a player can directly or indirectly interact with !!

 

 

4) Information(s) correct leading a player InGame. From start to end WF is lacking so much infos to hand out a player to let him see the full picture or at least give him enough points within the 'context' so he can find his way(s) to the goal(s).

 

 

5) Endgame content..

I do not want a Endgame content... i want to keeeeep on in progressing. Where is Starchart 2 and 3? Where are the next high lvl planet knots? Where is a content a high lvl player can do tactical based gameplay instead running AoE throwing to the exit? Start; hords of cheap low health units...End; low amount of heavy high health units a player/team has to care to face it alone? Dungoun typed but no dungoun in normal aspect...fresh... Open Areas?...

5.1*) Anti-Cheese System(s) where ?? Exc.: Effects/Abilities, only trigger to work if a player is killing/atacking a target at his or higher lvl range. If not it gets a penality based on lvl differents, lower or no exp/drops at all depending how big the difference is...

5.2*) Why is lvl 30 end lvl for a frame? Something wrong here... Give us a way to increase the frame lvl. By Exp or upgrading system or fusion 2 × lvl 30 same frames, to upgrade it to a lvl 31..i do not care.. just something...

 

So much points.. 5 points...with some sub points 😋

Edited June 30, 2017 by P0Pz

[OniDax]

4 hours ago, Iccotak said:

So after all we have discussed, lets do two lists.
1. What are the top things you Like/Appreciate/Love about Warframe
2. What Existing Gameplay Aspects & Features should be top Priority right now? 

Let's start with Five for each and then we'll expand from there.

A) The top five things I like about the game are:

1. The premise of the game: playing as warriors with space magic and armored exoskeletons called Warframes
2. The setting: in our solar system, not in some random galaxy
3. Melee weapons and the stance system (I just wish some stances were better)
4. Warframe abilities
5. The visual aesthetic of the Prime frames

B) The top five things I want to be priority (and this is also the top five things I think need to be revisited):

1. Progression: The first thing I think DE needs to do is to rework their mastery system so that every in-game action (all types of kills, scans, console hacks, captures, rescues, and assassinations) awards you mastery points. This will reorient the focus of the game towards gameplay by directly rewarding gameplay and not just rewarding the collection of items. This is also necessary to reorient the focus of the players towards gameplay by rewarding their gameplay, however they choose to engage in it.
2. Mission Design - Multi-objective missions, Vehicles, and more open game spaces: This is imperative to improve the mission system in this game. We need multiple objectives to complete a mission (look at Medal of Honor Airborne as my ideal example). As well, not only do we need more objectives to complete but we also need more tools to use in the environment. We need to have vehicles to use, and the Grineer and Corpus also need vehicles. We, as well as enemies, can jump into these vehicles during missions and use them. The enemy should also be able to have space ship reinforcements (think combat versions of the transports). In addition to this, the devs should rework their tilesets to include more open tiles, and less enclosed tiles, in order to make the game space larger and more open. NPCs and patrolling enemies should fill this more open space.
3. Running/Sprinting Animations: This is important for the feel and flow of the gameplay. Warframe's animations are clunky, hand-animated animations that are outdated in the gaming industry. AAA games feature motion-captured and IK-based animations (Inverse Kinematics) to create a smooth, realistic movement experience. Warframe needs this to improve the feel of the game.
4. Space Combat: IMO, Warframe needs to overhaul its space gameplay. Space gameplay should be about expanding the scope and the scale of the game; nothing does this like space. But a game isn't expanding its scope and scale if it merely tries to replicate its infantry (ground-based) gameplay in space. Rather, the game should embrace the scope and scale of space by featuring medium to large ship vs ship gameplay. That means we'd be able to use our landing crafts as combat ships against Grineer and Corpus fighters, transports, medium attack ships, and Galleons and Obelisks. Meanwhile, archwing should be placed on new air-based tilesets where we have to take on ground-based and air-based enemies. The Vay Hek boss fight could, and should imo, be reworked into such an Archwing mission.
5. Story, Backstory/History, and Worldbuilding: Warframe should continue developing its story, but it should do so after firmly establishing its history, its foundational lore. DE needs to establish the history of the Orokin empire, how it rose, what its society was like, what the solar system as a whole was like (the planets and their various populations), the Sentients and what they were like, the war and how it was fought, the Tenno and how they fought against the Sentients and alongside the Orokin, and what the state of the system is now (its populations, planets' interactions and relations with one another and with the Grineer/Corpus, etc).

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[DatDarkOne]

43 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

A) The top five things I like about the game are:

1. The premise of the game: playing as warriors with space magic and armored exoskeletons called Warframes
2. The setting: in our solar system, not in some random galaxy
3. Melee weapons and the stance system (I just wish some stances were better)
4. Warframe abilities
5. The visual aesthetic of the Prime frames

B) The top five things I want to be priority (and this is also the top five things I think need to be revisited):

1. Progression: The first thing I think DE needs to do is to rework their mastery system so that every in-game action (all types of kills, scans, console hacks, captures, rescues, and assassinations) awards you mastery points. This will reorient the focus of the game towards gameplay by directly rewarding gameplay and not just rewarding the collection of items. This is also necessary to reorient the focus of the players towards gameplay by rewarding their gameplay, however they choose to engage in it.
2. Multi-objective missions: This is imperative to improve the mission system in this game. We need multiple objectives to complete a mission (look at Medal of Honor Airborne as my ideal example). As well, not only do we need more objectives to complete but we also need more tools to use in the environment. We need to have vehicles to use, and the Grineer and Corpus also need vehicles. We, as well as enemies, can jump into these vehicles during missions and use them. The enemy should also be able to have space ship reinforcements (think combat versions of the transports).
3. Running/Sprinting Animations: This is important for the feel and flow of the gameplay. Warframe's animations are clunky, hand-animated animations that are outdated in the gaming industry. AAA games feature motion-captured and IK-based animations (Inverse Kinematics) to create a smooth, realistic movement experience. Warframe needs this to improve the feel of the game.
4. Space Combat: IMO, Warframe needs to overhaul its space gameplay. Space gameplay should be about expanding the scope and the scale of the game; nothing does this like space. But a game isn't expanding its scope and scale if it merely tries to replicate its infantry (ground-based) gameplay in space. Rather, the game should embrace the scope and scale of space by featuring medium to large ship vs ship gameplay. That means we'd be able to use our landing crafts as combat ships against Grineer and Corpus fighters, transports, medium attack ships, and Galleons and Obelisks. Meanwhile, archwing should be placed on new air-based tilesets where we have to take on ground-based and air-based enemies. The Vay Hek boss fight could, and should imo, be reworked into such an Archwing mission.
5. Story, Backstory/History, and Worldbuilding: Warframe should continue developing its story, but it should do so after firmly establishing its history, its foundational lore. DE needs to establish the history of the Orokin empire, how it rose, what its society was like, what the solar system as a whole was like (the planets and their various populations), the Sentients and what they were like, the war and how it was fought, the Tenno and how they fought against the Sentients and alongside the Orokin, and what the state of the system is now (its populations, planets' interactions and relations with one another and with the Grineer/Corpus, etc).

 

I can completely agree with this list.  It's well thought out and makes sense.  :D

[OniDax]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I can completely agree with this list.  It's well thought out and makes sense.  :D

I added more to the Multi-objective mission bullet point, by the way, just to flesh out what all I think needs to be done in that regard.

[Culaio]

I also want Multi-objective missions but I want those objectives to meaningfull, I want to see something happen, like we are making difference in game's world, I dont want objective to be like this:

• capture target
• defend the objective
• exterminate enemies
• extract

since this would feel like its what we had before just stuck one after another, I would want Multi-objective missions to look/feel like this:

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Culaio

[Unus]

4 hours ago, Iccotak said:

So after all we have discussed, lets do two lists.
1. What are the top things you Like/Appreciate/Love about Warframe
2. What Existing Gameplay Aspects & Features should be top Priority right now? 

Let's start with Five for each and then we'll expand from there.

Very well suh, here I go.

1. Against all odds, the community. As the first gaming community that I ever took an active attention and creative investment in, I've become much less of a ""fanatic"" of Warframe and far more of a ""citizen"". I simply cannot bear the thought of seeing the game capsize alongside all the people and personalities I've ever met. Twould never find anything like it again. To say nothing of the fact that it was here that my content creation wings were first allowed to soar.

2. It is free with no real strings attached save slots. As a ""subsistence"" fellow, this is absolutely glorious.

3) Progressian. Unlike so many games I've ever played, the story continues even after I have seemingly "done everything". Constant evolution, leaves hope for future, such potential in things to come. Exhilarating. 

4) The story. I have always been a science fiction, science fantasy and the like die-hard, Warframe was just a natural fit for meself.

5) Weapon Variety. There's a gun for every occasion buried in here, a blade for every kind of throat to cut meaty or mechanical. All the other games I've played have allowed me to transfer skills from there to here and vice-versa. The Cycron has been the pinnacle of that for my Mass Effectian days, allowing me to finally complete the entire Star Map.

 

Now, as for areas of improvement that I myself would like to see.

1. Improved interpersonal connectivity. Since 2016 and perhaps even before, every time I have tried to join a public game, my connection is severed before it even starts. The only way I am able to play the game with others or even invite anyone at all is to actually BE in the mission beforehand, leading to all sorts of dead-on-arrival mishaps. If there was any way Digital could smooth-out this nasty wrinkle, be it through renovated infrastructure or some manner of expensive rented or personal servers, I'm all for it.

2. Improved smoothness for new tile-sets. While I cannot tell whether it is my machine that's the problem or the level of detailing Digital has done, I have a funny feeling it could very well be both.

3. A bit more enemy uniqueness. (In progress.)

Thats all I got currently.