DE we need to talk AI

[MokutoBunshi]

Many  players (Like myself I guess) have been saying that "DE needs to fix thier AI" but we never put a finger on quite what it is that needs changing or more importantly, just doesn't FEEL right.

 

Today I think I know what it is:

 

 

The AI not fighting as a group is one thing, but this is entirely another. They just chicken foot about till its their turn. This makes a LOT more sense why we can parkour over a platoon of enemies and get merely grazed (yes I am considering the lowered accuracy of the enemies to units in the air). Please consider updating this. It may provide a better challenge aside from enemy stat scaling alone!

 

I think that was shot and to the point enough. :)

What are your thoughts?

 

]\'[

[AdunSaveMe]

If every enemy could attack you at once the game would probably be outright unplayable.

This isn't unique to Warframe, either.

Edited June 10, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[ShadowStalker]

lmao this is done so you dont get wiped out in like 5 mins and warframe is a game where you need to grind for hours to get something  

so loosing all revives wont help that all

inb4 "Well you can play more tactically and not die"

play more tactically or kill more enemies so they drop stuff were farming for or gaining XP from?

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[Pie_mastyr]

didn't you know? Warframe is a turn based rpg

[(PSN)fullblast35]

im not even dissapointed.  this kinda opens my eyes to more about players hoping for endgame.  Truth about endgame would be that it would be impossible to play :D

[kicsikorte]

Because it would be so much fun if 20 bombards fires at you simultaneously.
 

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

If every enemy could attack you at once the game would probably be outright unplayable.

This isn't unique to Warframe, either.

That's kinda the aim of a horde game, having a huge amount of enemies shooting at you but each of them barely deal any damage.

If you have 30 lancer shooting at you but their bullet hit 50% of the time and each of them remove 5 hp/shield, how is that unplayable ?

The problem is that they deal way too much damage for such a thing to be possible

21 minutes ago, kicsikorte said:

Because it would be so much fun if 20 bombards fires at you simultaneously.
 

Then don't make special units like bombards spawn that many/often ?

They're supposed to be heavy unit, something "rare" in a horde game that doesn't spawn every second.

(I'm not saying it happens in game to have 20 of them, but they are usually waaaay too many)

 

@MokutoBunshi nice discovery (I don't know if you made the video) I wasn't aware of this, mostly because usually the enemy doesn't have the time to show us this kind of things before they die.

And again I wish the difficulty of the game was higher and not just "you're here to destroy everything and they won't even bother fighting back"

Edited June 10, 2017 by Trichouette

[(PSN)fullblast35]

I don't know what he is trying to prove by showing this video, its just pretty clear that if 20 level 20 enemies were shooting like " they were supposed to"  it would feel like every mid tier mission is a sortie mission.  We didn't even add the armor scaling factor.  But don't ge the wrong AI doesn't seem broken to me, just in favor of players.  Enemies still deal damage.  Not trying to compare games but in COD when you die, you realize every enemy is actually shooting.  So his point is probably based on that A.I fact.  it just makes me laugh inside how players want END GAME :D  can you imagine how it would turn out?  they would beg for thing to become back to normal XD

[MakeLuvNotWerFrame]

If only you were around back in the 2013 days, hit-scan+pin point accuracy.

being instantly killed from over 30 meters away from an enemy that just popped out from cover.

but then DE went and added reduced accuracy for moving targets and toned down hit-scan to fast bullet time.

 

also does it occur to you that all shots fired has to be synced with all players in the squad? more shots concurrently means more data traffic and when bad ping is a factor,

well it won't be fun.

 

all the changes people take for granted and the incessant whining, it's disgusting.

Edited June 10, 2017 by MakeLuvNotWerFrame

[Raniu]

I think the limit of enemies shooting at once should be increased. It doesn't have to be increased substantially, we don't want a full squad to lag.

To compensate, their damage could be reduced. And chance to hit an airborne player could be reduced as well.

[AdunSaveMe]

2 hours ago, Trichouette said:

That's kinda the aim of a horde game, having a huge amount of enemies shooting at you but each of them barely deal any damage.

The aim of a horde game is to fight a horde. Most of them don't have infinite scaling and a few dozen different types of enemy. And if they shot more but did less damage, they would be even more absolutely worthless in smaller numbers, since you're not always fighting a hundred enemies at once.

Edited June 10, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Trichouette]

11 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

 they would be even more absolutely worthless in smaller numbers, since you're not always fighting a hundred enemies at once.

Which is another AI problem : Enemies are often lost on the map or waiting behind cover far away instead of seeking you to kill you.

And usually in a horde game that isn't based on FPS/TPS, you can avoid projectiles, here you can't avoid all bullets. You can jump around to lower their accuracy but you'll still get hit.

Which is why I think they should greatly reduce enemies' damage and remove that "X enemies can attack you" cap. (or even buff our health/shield)

[AdunSaveMe]

10 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Which is another AI problem : Enemies are often lost on the map or waiting behind cover far away instead of seeking you to kill you.

No it's not. Enemies being lost isn't the sole reason for not fighting a hundred enemies at a time.

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

No it's not. Enemies being lost isn't the sole reason for not fighting a hundred enemies at a time.

Well there is most of the time the same amount of enemies on the map and we know that, they're just not all onto us

[MokutoBunshi]

Good discussion so far. Is this thread still relevant though?

 

]\'[

[Trichouette]

17 minutes ago, MokutoBunshi said:

Good discussion so far. Is this thread still relevant though?

Well as we said, the game can't be otherwise since enemies would just kill us in a blink of an eye.

I doubt it works like this for "game performance" as some tennos said, i'm pretty sure it's just for some "fake balance purpose".

Can't do much about it unless if they ever decide to rework and balance the game.

[Sovyul]

On 6/10/2017 at 10:25 AM, MokutoBunshi said:

What are your thoughts?

The combat system is flawed with its infinite scaling, requiring bandaids to patch up wounds that would kill the game, such as 20 lvl 120 bombards bombarding us all at once.

Resource gathering, xp farming, item aquisition, everything must be overhauled if you want a more tactical gameplay, but that would kill the overpowered space ninjas theme, which is the bread and butter of this game.

Even now i feel like we lack a lot of defense without a dedicated defense frame. Ember for example can only rely on mods to add a little health and shield which becomes useless even at lvl 50 already

[MokutoBunshi]

Both quite true. I think that this would hurt the overpowered ninja theme but not the regular one we saw waaay back with dark-sector. I personally think they could make squads act more tactical so that we as players have a component that requires us to out preform the enemy once the scaling (which at this point will definitely need a nerf) kicks in. This might be too much to do on a developed system like the warframe combat, HOWEVER, we could see some potential for operator based combat and their enemies. Enemies that require more than fire power, ego the kuva gaurdians.

 

 

]\'[

[Lost_Cartographer]

If this video were actually accurate, then there would be no concern for bombards and nullifiers in high level endless void knowing this.  More than plenty enough lancers and heavy gunners to keep the queues full.

Somehow, I have to believe that maybe the Simulcrum might have tweaked rules for the sake of being a testing environment.  Though I'm sure a "simultaneous shoot" limit still exists, it's just higher in actual missions.

[Wiergate]

The video is pointless as a reference. The swarm AI does queue and cap enemy attacks, but that's on an individual spawn basis - such as the Simulacrum.

In the wild, spawns are staggered, ranks are refreshed and several swarm AI 'nodes' (there must be a better term, but I'm tired) are active at any given point. If he'd tested this in-game the results would have been exactly what you'd expect, namely a Wukong-shaped outline on the floor. 

Rest assured I'm not saying this in defense of DE's enemy AI, which is in dire need of improvements. The main problem just doesn't happen to be this one.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Wiergate
sppellgin

[MokutoBunshi]

On 7/16/2017 at 7:43 PM, Littleman88 said:

If this video were actually accurate, then there would be no concern for bombards and nullifiers in high level endless void knowing this.  More than plenty enough lancers and heavy gunners to keep the queues full.

Somehow, I have to believe that maybe the Simulcrum might have tweaked rules for the sake of being a testing environment.  Though I'm sure a "simultaneous shoot" limit still exists, it's just higher in actual missions.

 

On 7/17/2017 at 3:51 AM, Wiergate said:

The video is pointless as a reference. The swarm AI does queue and cap enemy attacks, but that's on an individual spawn basis - such as the Simularum.

In the wild, spawns are staggered, ranks are refreshed and several swarm AI 'nodes' (there must be a better term, but I'm tired) are active at any given point. If he'd tested this in-game the results would have been exactly what you'd expect, namely a Wukong-shaped outline on the floor. 

Rest assured I'm not saying this in defense of DE's enemy AI, which is in dire need of improvements. The main problem just doesn't happen to be this one.

Hmm your both right. I need to test this in a real mission for myself.

 

]\'[

[Cortanis]

Talking about AI, we also need to take a look at the specter AI as well. Good lord these guys are dumb as bricks. Apparently they do have an energy pool, but it's so low that they'll just cast their #1 if at all possible. They also have no concept of the weapons equipped to them and what to actually use. 

[MokutoBunshi]

On 7/21/2017 at 7:05 AM, Cortanis said:

Talking about AI, we also need to take a look at the specter AI as well. Good lord these guys are dumb as bricks. Apparently they do have an energy pool, but it's so low that they'll just cast their #1 if at all possible. They also have no concept of the weapons equipped to them and what to actually use. 

Give them the logic of those guys from the new loka quest and we will be in good shape

[Golmihr]

To me the current AI seems more realistic than what is suggested in the OP. It takes friendly fire into consideration and they don't use 20 rockets where one is usually enough (And why use rockets inside a spaceship in the first place. At least they are not suicidal enough to do their best to try and break their protective tin can open). The crewmen seek cover first. Some could be panicking or scared.

Anyway. Having them all just line up to form a firing squad would make a poor AI in all aspects.