Zephyr, Shock and Awe ::Updated August 9th::

[Birdframe_Prime]

::Edited 22 June:: Pretty major update of behaviour.

::Edited 9 August:: IT'S SO SIMPLE HOW DID I MISS IT?!

Okay, I've got it. Now I've really got it.

I made it too complicated all this time! It's even simpler than I thought.

Please hear me out though and if you're confused as to what any of the abilities do in specifics, ask me and I'll try and provide helpful diagrams.

I've broken it up into three parts, the Discourse, the Rework and the DEFENDING MYSELF! portions, the Discourse is my discussion with you, the reader, the Rework is purely for the actual abilities themselves, just a straight up 'these are the ideas', the DEFENDING MYSELF! is the part where I explain all my choices and give you a chance to understand what the abilities mean. It's background, show, then explain. Please don't read part of this and go directly to the comments to ridicule me until you've read all my rambles.

1. Discourse

After a long time supporting the basic theory that we’re going to get an Oberon style rework to Zephyr, taking her existing abilities and making them viable, a good forum friend of mine said something important.

He said that it’s as if we’ve currently got Zephyr 0.8 and we’re working towards Zephyr 1.0, and what’s unfair about that is that many of the other old frames have been reworked into the 2.0 state, while new frames are being created there at base.

I’ve tried in previous threads to make Zephyr’s 1.0 kit match the 2.0 state she should be in, but I don’t think that’s enough. I've missed key points about forced ability synergy and overlap in her kit, and it's something I hope to fix here.

So here I am, to suggest a full overhaul in the same vein as Limbo and Excalibur where her abilities each serve a purpose that works into her whole, but do not force synergy and one that ensures that each ability is a valid cast on its own before it works together, but that any player can find easy ways to synergise each cast for best effect.

This tore my mind apart. Because... well, what ability can we give Zephyr, the air casting frame, that applies in game as not just a viable ability, but one that doesn't steal directly from other frames, doesn't overlap with her other abilities and most importantly isn't just a forced synergy with her existing abilities! Moreover, Zephyr is a frame that goes up in the air, moves at high speed, and comes down hard again. Dive Bomb is too good a base just to make vanish into thin air... Tornado has too much potential as area denial, Turbulence is too clean-cut and functional to go anywhere... It's really difficult.

And think about it... if you have a frame that can knock down an area of enemies instantly then an ability that's purely for grouping those enemies together is a redundant CC cast, the only time you'd cast it is specifically to prepare for the other cast (that and it steals from Nidus). What about knock-back? Again, not a thing when you've got a cast that literally wants you to have them grouped up for best effect, or when you have a 4 that wants to attack enemies within range of it... So... is there some kind of hybrid ability that can be used? Can enemies be grouped up as a secondary effect of a main cast? That's an idea there... possibly.

What about a team buff? Yeah... but what buff? An enemy debuff? Powered by air? Maybe... but there's so much argument over what is and isn't a good buff or debuff. Saryn is a debuffer, Nova is a debuffer, Frost, even Nekros... Rhino is a buffer, Valkyr buffs, Nidus buffs, Volt... there's so many variants already that who knows which frames' toes we'll step on.

Zephyr currently starts as a high mobility, Launch and Land frame, where 1 puts you in the air and 2 drops you down again, and as you level her up she gains personal defense and then a wide AoE ability that completely interrupts enemies and disrupts the battlefield, but is less effective the longer it goes due to it moving away from point of cast.

Previously, my brain then thought in slightly simple terms. Literally speaking it was like this: High mobility is pretty good, improve it slightly, Launch and Land is good, buff it to fully functioning status, personal defense is very good, leave it alone, area disruption currently hurts team as much or more than it helps, change for defensive cast to be valid at all.

All of that skipping over the very, very obvious state that she had a cast on 2 that literally forced the synergy with 1. 2 has no ground-based function and no options on its own without 1 or movement.

Currently my brain is thinking in a more… dynamic approach. Launch and Land is not good enough to be split across two casts, but just combining the two is not enough either, a valid single ability must be created from the concept in order for it to function as a complete ability. Much like Limbo previously had a single cast to make himself go into and out of the Rift, and another cast to do the same to others… it doesn’t work as two casts, so they made one innate and moved the other to make way for a new cast.

So how do we make one worthwhile ability that does the best parts of 1 or 2, without losing the benefits of the other cast? I don't think we can. I honestly don't think it's possible to take Dive Bomb and Tailwind and create an ability that has all the functions of both without any of the drawbacks. Therefore, we have to pick one of the two abilities, and make it work fully, then change her up in other ways so that she has options as a frame. Her passive is a good choice for making improvements to in order to cover mobility, so maybe the best direction to go is to make Dive Bomb the cast, and make it fully functional, and then give her more options in the rest of her kit to compensate for some of the losses.

Can I make it better, or will I make it worse? You tell me. And be prepared for me to argue and defend these choices, because this has massively wracked my brains.

And one more thing... With Zephyr being able to go up in the air so easily, I wanted to make sure that her abilities had a very clear difference to their casting when they were in the air versus when they were on the ground. Turbulence... might not change at all, but the others... oh yeah, let's do this whole thing with style!

2. Rework Concept.

Here we go!!

Passive: Aerodynamic ::UPDATED 22nd June:: ::RE-UPDATED 9th August::

Zephyr’s light weight construction allows her to leap higher, fall slower and to control her movement in the air. Holding Jump for a brief charge will cause Zephyr to propel herself through the air at extreme speed, on the ground this will launch her skywards higher than any other frame can jump, in the air it will hurtle her in the direction of the crosshair. Zephyr still has full control of her movement and can perform almost all other actions while dashing. When in the air, Zephyr's abilities are targeted for maximum effect, painting a target on the ground that is able to be placed further away from her based on her ability range. For a quick descent, in case of being stuck too high, dashes aimed at the ground will automatically cancel within one meter of impact for a soft landing.

In practice, this passive is literally Tailwind, with no damage, for no energy. I mean, how simple is that? Zephyr's low gravity and an extension in duration to aim glide will already allow her to stay in the air, and dashing will actually allow enough time for Aim Glide to recharge passively, or it can be recharged by touching a wall or floor anyway. Because this has no other function than movement, it falls into the same category as Limbo's current passive, a base extension to movement that allows her to evade incoming damage.

Compared to the existing Tailwind, you lose the modding on distance, but as long as DE places it as a better function than Bullet Jump, further but not so far as you're hitting the far end of tiles in one burst (maybe just say double whatever Bullet Jump can do, including the momentum-based functions, that might be fair) then I think the most number of players would be happy with the result.

In addition, all of Zephyr's abilities can be targeted in the air, meaning that on the ground they are cast directly from her radially or in a direction, while in the air she can choose a location to attack with an aiming reticule that appears on the ground in front of her up to a range-modded distance away.

Finally, the landing mechanic is now there for all the players that want a quick way down, the cancel at 1m works on any 'floor' surface that you can stand on, meaning that precision landings and quick traversal is now amazingly easy. You simply dash down and walk out of the cast, never need to have a heavy landing animation again if you get it right.

First ability: Dive Bomb ::Updated 22nd June:: ::RE-UPDATED 9th August::

On the ground Dive Bomb unleashes a radial burst of air, knocking down all enemies in a small radius around her, while in the air Zephyr hurtles directly at the target area on the ground to cause an explosion of air on impact. On the ground the ability does minimal damage, but in the air damage is affected by melee mods, and hits add to the melee counter, range mods affect how far the aiming reticule can be aimed away from Zephyr and the impact radius of the knock down.

In practice this ability has the basic function of the old Dive Bomb slam in one tap, you know those times when you hop into the air and tap the ability for minimum damage, but get the area knock down? No? Okay, so maybe you're not one of those that uses it because it's rubbish. For this one I draw on my other reworks; the knock down is forced on all enemies, and interrupts their animations. No more having enemies hacking consoles on interception just ignoring you. Guaranteed knock down, instantly on tapping the button. Short radius, as it currently is, and very low damage. Why? Because this is a really, really good cast as a first ability. You run straight in and knock down any immediate targets, it's a softer CC than Sonic Boom, but radial so you can accidentally overshoot a target by a little way and still get them.

Since Tailwind is now movement, the easy altitude gain for the damage portion and the quick escape is covered without having to cast for it, and instead of running away from the battle as your first choice, you knock them down and continue fighting.

I would address spam by pointing out that the knock down can't be re-applied until enemies are fully standing, and the on-ground ability is a two-handed cast with the same time to cast as the recovery on the aerial Dive, and even though it's a mobile cast, it interrupts your own actions, like reloading, melee, casting other abilities. Tie that with the low base range of Dive Bomb and the only spam-capable build is one that maximises range, therefore nerfing the damage of the Dive and of Tornado (the changes to Tornado might make it clear why this isn't so desirable) and you have a cast that people want to use more tactically and less for spam.

In the air is clearly different, however, but has the same base function; you're knocking down a small radius. From the air, the damage scales with height and melee mods and it also has a range-modified ability to aim it further forwards in the direction you're looking using the passive aiming reticule. This means that you can dash into the air, move forwards with aim glide, and attack enemies that are in front of you. 

Important possibility, instead of scaling with melee mods (which would grant really, really high levels of damage too) another way to encourage getting that height is that damage scaling could be weighted so that while the height scales the base damage by a multiplier, the multiplier is also scaled by height, making increasing compound returns on damage the higher you go.

Regardless of the damage, the ability is based on that radial knock down being entirely reliable. Base of good CC and if you're in the air, you can aim it to tactically strike with actual damage. Options are there.

Second ability: Dervish ::Updated 22nd June:: ::RE-UPDATED 9th August::

Zephyr launches a small twister of air that moves forward steadily and pulls nearby enemies towards it as it moves, while in the air the ability can be cast at the aiming reticule but also gains bonus size on the suction area of the Dervish itself based on your range. The speed of Dervish is not affected by mods, however the distance travelled can be affected by duration and the range of suction and aiming distance in the air are affected by range.

In practice this steals a little from a good idea called Katabatic Vortex, which is an idea proposed in another thread, but also builds on it. Rather than simply pulling enemies to a point, Dervish pulls them along in a direction based on that point, or pushes if you will, as if it's a non-damaging cast of Magnetise that moves in a steady pace away from the point of cast. Why? Not only does it group up enemies, it also can be used to clear corridors and open up space for Zephyr. It's a counter-measure to her weakness of melee units, not by outright killing them, but by pushing them back away from her.

It also serves that purpose of a grouping ability as a more secondary function than the primary one so that a player can leap skywards and cast Dive Bomb on them if they so choose. It will also function as something a little more deliberate in letting players push reluctant enemies into Tornado.

Spoiler

Bad MSPaint diagram for example:

Then there's the in-air cast, where an aimed cast will then trigger off the ability from point of cast, meaning you don't even have to be in the line of fire to use it, and it then has extra range for the suction area. This means that a base ability could have 7m diameter (a 7m suction range total) but in the air a max-range build would increase the circle to 17m diameter, which is a lot of extra area. Even without a maxed range build, your basic Stretch and Cunning Drift would make it over 10m in air, compared to 7m on the ground. Then give it some scaling, to that the baserange is given bonus range based on height, just like Dive Bomb's damage scales, meaning that you could gain up to an additional 50% scaled base range, up to a 10.5m base circle, modded by range would then max out at 26m which is pretty special if you get that high.

Third ability: Turbulence ::UPDATED 9th August::

Good old Turbulence XD

I don't see much point in trying to buff or nerf this ability, however I do have a proposition. When cast in the air, it does not interrupt other actions, making it a 'single handed' cast meaning it can be cast while aim gliding. Discourage people from casting it on the ground, because that requires animation, and any good Zephyr player knows not to do that anyway ^^

Another passive effect could be that when cast in air, the cooldown on Aim Glide is reduced by half to ensure that maintaining your aim is easier to do and would refresh in only a few seconds once drained.

Fourth ability: Tornado ::Minor update 22nd June:: ::RE-UPDATED 9th August::

Dive Bomb is the Shock, Tornado is the Awe. Cast Tornado to instantly stun all enemies in a wide radius, while funnel clouds spawn, sucking up enemies within the radius and launching them into the air after a short duration. Shooting or attacking a Tornado funnel with elementally modded weapons adds elemental damage to the funnels allowing Zephyr to place up to two different elemental types on each funnel adding to the damage over time for enemies captured within and guaranteeing an inflicted elemental status of each type. Enemies captured by Tornado's funnels are captured briefly, then thrown skywards to suffer more damage on impact with the ground. In the air, the ability is cast on the point of the aiming reticule and gains bonus range on the capture area of all funnels. Finally, Zephyr is able to cancel Tornado early by pressing 4 again, and whenever Tornado ends the outrushing air knocks down all surviving enemies in range.

In practice, this switches Tornado's usual 'spawn on enemies and then wander about the battlefield' style into a 'oh gods, she just summoned four massive tornadoes and we can't run!' The medium duration stun is to ensure that all enemies in range of the initial cast stay put for the cast to finish meaning you catch enemies that are doing tasks like activating consoles. The funnels then spawn in a specific location around Zephyr (four points) and move outwards seeking each enemy in turn until they've cleared the immediate area. If the ability is causing issues for players, it can be ended early, and whether you cancel it or if it ends naturally all surviving enemies are knocked down for some last-minute CC.

The funnels then patrol within the range of the cast, faster than currently, and target, chase and capture enemies that suffer base damage from the funnels (I'm thinking that it should be like several other 4th casts and be a balanced mix of IPS at the start). Damage functions a lot like it does currently, where capturing an enemy deals a multiplied value of the base damage-per-tick value, meaning that if a base damage-per-tick is... let's say 250, the damage on capture is 500, but if you mod it to 200% strength, that's 500 damage per tick, and 2000 damage on capture (the multiplier doubles as well, see?). That's how Tornado currently works, but add to that, Zephyr can add elemental damage on top of the base, up to two types of elemental damage, adding 50% base damage for each, and the percentage of elemental damage also gets modded, so a 200% strength mod would add 100% elemental damage instead of 50%.

In addition enemies that are thrown by Tornado funnels suffer as enemies do when thrown by Snowglobe; impact with geometry causes Physics Damage (that's finisher damage up to 50% of their max health, based on velocity), so hitting the ceiling or the floor can potentially finish off enemies that survive.

The final improvement is that Tornado funnels have a base capture radius of 5m, this isn't much, really, so the in-air cast doubles that as its bonus change. The reason this is more useful is that it reduces the 'time to capture' on each funnel and funnels can then target the next victim proportionally faster. Enemies that survive and fall back into the ability are more likely then to fall within range of the funnel pick-up again, and be recaptured automatically. It also has a secret buff; if a funnel is at the edge of the ability range, it then has an effective pickup range outside of the cast, enemies that are outside of the range of the cast can also be picked up as long as a funnel is at the edge, sucking enemies into the casts's range.

To compensate for the much higher potential damage on Tornado, I believe that capture should be limited to pick up (if elementally modded already, the capture is what guarantees the elemental proc so that damage is applied to the enemy after the effect), a few ticks of damage (with a high chance at an elemental proc), and launch with physics damage.

On lower levels this will wreck, on higher levels the stun, elemental modding and then persistent CC will save lives.

Augments:

Dive Bomb Vortex; still does what it says on the tin, but uses the guaranteed interrupt option, so from the in-air cast enemies around the point of impact are pulled towards it (note, I want to tweak this so that if the radius of the DB impact is 12m, enemies from 14m get pulled in for damage too, and so on).

Scouring Dervish; Dervish clears all placed hazards in its way, such as Napalm balls, Sapper Orbs, Toxin Clouds, Mines, Grenades, Mutalist Tar and Mutalist Swarms.

Jet Stream; the same, but tweaked a little so buff can't go below 0 and instead cause a slow on allies and projectiles.

Funnel Clouds; with the new movement, radial nature, ability to shoot through funnels, stun on cast/decast, the improved damage mechanics and the guaranteed elemental procs, there is no need to change what this does, up to 12 tiny funnels dealing double damage to enemies instead of ragdoll? Yeah, please, definitely, especially with the new damage system meaning you can double the double damage by adding two elements. Perfect addition for a strength build.

And there we go!

3. DEFENDING MYSELF! ::RE-UPDATED 9th August::

This section is where I will ramble and try to explain my thoughts, it will be updated as people ask questions, and be made more coherent over time.

Also, as everyone who has read my previous threads might realise, I'll be clear that this still holds some of my more adamant rework points from previous threads.

Questions you might be asking now:

Why? Why? .... Why? and But Why?

Well... it actually might take a little explaining for everyone to be satisfied, and I don't expect all of you to be. But what it boils down to is this: While the surface does seem quite a lot different to the normal Zephyr, all I'm really doing is shifting Tailwind, giving her a new ability and rebalancing the other abilities to make her function overall better.

So yes, a few things to address.

First, this proves I've not gone insane. While I really did like the idea of a passive glide function, I've never, ever been a fan of them. This basic shift of the Tailwind cast to her passive keeps its base functions and the dash-centric nature of her movement, and the only downside is that people still dislike her low-grav passive, but the upside is the landing mechanic may actually be better for them in practice than applying normal gravity because it would cost no energy and get Zephyr to their desired location faster than the parkour movement would have for any other frame.

::Update 22nd June:: ::RE-UPDATED 9th August:: People really like her dash, and they have argued quite a bit that the lack of it is more hindering than the lack of an ability like Dive Bomb would be, there's a very simple logic with that; after many, many times trying to improve and add to Tail Wind, there isn't enough that makes it more than a single use movement cast with some functionality. If the current ability can be entirely replaced by a passive... then what you'd add to it with other functions could be better put into a new ability.

Meanwhile Dive Bomb is simply an incomplete ability. Adding a ground function will make it a functioning 1 cast, worth only that no matter where you cast it, it's a downgrade from a 2 cast, but that means we can put in a functioning 2 worth the energy instead of having two separate casts only worth 25.

More simply; what can you add to Tailwind? Damage? Dive Bomb can do damage. CC? Dive Bomb can CC, and a new 2 could do full on CC. Team buffs? What buff could a dash do worth the time to implement? Repeat the last for enemy debuffs. A new 2 could do all of these better, while her passive takes over the dash and movement functions.

Placing all movement as actual Movement, allows more breadth of improvements. And keeping Dive Bomb largely intact means that the new ability can work with it, but do something different to what she already does without removing anything she currently has.

The most recent change to ditch the glide and keep the dash is dedicated to all of those people that argued so hard against my idea, and I've eventually rethought and found this to be better in my mind. And an apology to those that really want the glide and not the dash. It just... feels more like Zephyr this way.

Moving on, yes I am basing some of the changes on my earlier rework ideas. Specifically the guaranteed knock down on Dive Bomb being some form of animation based one, forcing interrupts on any and all enemy actions is absolutely key. The melee damage on Dive Bomb is another, because that's just... damn sensible in my eyes, but limiting that damage potential to the in-air cast will mean that players trying to spam the knock down will only ever get minimum damage. Incentive to use the in-air functions for Zephyr is a must. The other carry over from my original reworks is the limited range on Tornado, because that allows other things to be buffed.

Actually, as for Tornado, I wanted to make this a much more... aggressive cast, with its potential damage. To get the most out of this cast you have to use it in the same way players use Anti-Matter Drop, you have to place it, you have to charge it. If you don't elementally charge it yourself you don't get all the damage out of it, and if you don't place yourself or the cast correctly you'll have to cancel it and recast. The awesome upside of that is that the cast itself causes a stun, and the decast causes a stun, so if you want to you can use it to stun a wide area repeatedly. Not really advisable, but possible. Physics damage can be lethal, I wanted to include that somewhere, and most importantly yes, you should be able to shoot through the funnels.

Third, the new balance of her abilities: The synergy of her three abilities should be obvious, without needing one to buff the other, the first is the knock down and hard landing that Zephyr currently does, while her passive dash provides all of the movement and traversal that Tailwind currently does, but for no energy and with no penalties like being stuck on a doorframe. The second will CC and group, but simultaneously take pressure off Zephyr when in melee range, especially effective on Infested I'll point out, and can be used both to push enemies away from a point, or to push them into Tornado if they're reluctant to enter the radius. The push and grouping plays right into an aerial dive bomb cast, as it encourages players to leap into the air and use the targeted DB to hit the most enemies possible. Meanwhile Turbulence is as blissfully passive and amazing as it always has been, but benefits from subtle buffs in the air, meaning that you can always stay on the move and never be hit, or you can camp out in the middle of a Tornado cast watching enemies get thrown around, and pushing them away with 2 if they start getting too close between your funnels.

::RE-UPDATED 9th August:: I toyed with Dive Bomb having an energy refund for successive casts in short order, but that would just mean spam. The radial knock down is worth 25 energy no matter how you cast it, the damage cast from in air, scaling with height as well as melee mods, is for investing the time to be in the air. It's important to note that I included the option for the height scaling to get more weighty the higher you go, so it also means that you get more back proportionally for going higher. I'll just throw some numbers around in the spoiler below, take them as you will, if you think they're too high for a 1 cast, then sure, we'll talk about it, but here:

The current equation is 0.2 × Activation Height × Base Damage which means that at base damage of 250 Impact damage, at 15m you would deal 0.2 × 15 × 250 = 750.

The new equation would be something like (0.1 × Activation Height) × (0.2 × Activation Height) × Base Damage which means that the same base damage at the same height of 15m would deal (0.1 × 15) × (0.2 × 15) × 250 = 2250. Way more applicable overall.

Then again, the other option for Dive Bomb was to have Melee Mod scaling.

If you had a melee with Primed Pressure Point, four of the 90% elemental mods and Spoiled Strike on (let's be generous and say you also put on Primed Fury to balance out Spoiled Strike, and a Life Strike or some other utility mod to make it functional) then Tailwind's base 250 damage would be upped to 4197.5 Base damage. Meaning that even with the current scaling? 0.2 × 15 × 4197.5 = 125,925 damage. Which is kind of nuts.

The above damage numbers have been pointed out as quite high enough already, so I feel it's important to say that they are not multiplied by the melee combo counter, they're flat numbers for the ability.

I also toyed with what to do with direct ability synergy, which is still a distinct possibility, by making Dervish able to be Dive Bombed for some utility effect like a radial slow? That would be good, too, but I'm not sure if it's actually necessary if the ability keeps things grouped. Another option would be that Dive Bombing a Dervish causes enemies to be thrown for physics damage as well, which could be really effective in later game.

And yes, my statement in the Discourse section about a hybrid ability was definitely leading to Dervish. A primarily CC ability for temporarily getting rid of melee units and pushing enemies out of corridors that has the secondary effect of bringing enemies into a group at the end of the cast's duration. You're pushing a collumn of enemies away and leaving them as a close-bunched group at the end instead of a loose line of enemies. It's not as good a Nidus' 2 cast, not immediately grouping enemies or even actually stopping them from shooting either (you have Turbulence for that) just taking the pressure off you from one direction. And if they get too close anyway? Tap 1 and they're all knocked down! Hold Jump for a second and you're hurtling into the sky!

See, the weakness of Dive Bomb's radial knock down is the low range, so with Dervish you get a higher range cast but in a limited direction that deals no damage either. They balance out each other without stepping over what the other does. Dervish will even drag along enemies if they have been knocked down, so it's equally as useful to cast the on-ground DB and then Dervish to clear those downed enemies away. As a little sub-section, Dervish cannot pull enemies over railings (it isn't ragdolling them or even lifting them), so if you want to cause environmental deaths you've got to make sure that the pit you're pushing them into has no rails.

My thoughts for Dervish was actually semi-inspired by a good friend's idea to make her first ability instead be a directional knock back and potential pin (shooting metal 'feather's with the wind and pinning enemies to walls with them) the issue I had with that is only that it means enemies could be pinned off the floor or over a gap, and thus out of range of a Dive Bomb impact.

And finally, her damage overall:

You see, I want potential for damage, something that can scale a little, but not overly. Dive Bomb is a 1 cast, it has to have a damage cap, like Nidus does and like Octavia does; they both have 1 casts that can scale up in damage quite a way, but there's a definitive point that they stop, Nidus' 1 is mitigated by armour and the 100 Stacks cap, and Octavia's is mitigated by time (three seconds of not being dealt damage or a recast and it reverts to low damage). Zephyr's will be limited by ceilings, modding and armour, so... yeah. But Tornado? Honestly, I want to ensure that a good strength build on her 4 plus a dual-stat elemental gun or melee can turn those funnels into shorter-term blenders where they capture an enemy, dealing high damage and an elemental proc, deal three large ticks of damage with another possible elemental proc, and then launch them for physics damage that's up to 50% of their max health as finisher... and then if do it again if they're targeted and picked up again by a funnel. More procs, more damage, more launching. A thirty second cast having the ability to pick up an enemy four or even five times for that kind of treatment? Heck yes. Sure it suffers from the same problem as other area-denial CCs, like Tentacle Swarm, Vortex and Bastille where enemies outside can still shoot in, but again, you have Turbulence. Add to that the fact that you can even aim its location from the air for more range on the funnel capture radius? Awesome.

Meanwhile a high range and duration, low strength build can make Zephyr a CC master, so... you can go either way with that.

In short, one fantastic CC frame with high mobility and some really high potential damage, plus you get some damage mitigation by turning off ranged projectiles with Turbulence. I think I've covered a lot of what I wanted to cover.

Hit me with the feedback!

Edited November 14, 2017 by Thaylien

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I've been waiting for this!

[Caelward]

...

I desperately want this passive.

I want it so bad.

[Azzaruth]

I've been trying to stay out of these for a while, but I have to admit, this suggestion is actually pretty good. But I do have one worry, and that is the air version of divebomb. For landing it does its job, and honestly a bit more situational than its second type of cast. But the secondary cast would feel a bit clunky and unflowing in practice, as a dash is something you want immediately, and not a one second charge up and release action. So instead I would suggest the click being the directional charge. And if you really want to keep the hold to aim with reticle, I would do something else that would make it worth while, such as increasing the range of the impact zone, damage, and speed. Also the duality of dervish is really nice, for both movement and for a cast.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Zephyr-Prime said:

I've been trying to stay out of these for a while, but I have to admit, this suggestion is actually pretty good. But I do have one worry, and that is the air version of divebomb. For landing it does its job, and honestly a bit more situational than its second type of cast. But the secondary cast would feel a bit clunky and unflowing in practice, as a dash is something you want immediately, and not a one second charge up and release action. So instead I would suggest the click being the directional charge. And if you really want to keep the hold to aim with reticle, I would do something else that would make it worth while, such as increasing the range of the impact zone, damage, and speed. Also the duality of dervish is really nice, for both movement and for a cast.

Now, I definitely hear where you're coming from, but Dive Bomb isn't for the landing or even specifically for the movement.

The passive glide handles all the actual speedy traversal and the fast grounding (hold crouch and release aim glide to land fast). This is so that the two functions are inherently separate, but function well together. Movement on movement, attack, launch and evade on ability.

So the reason for the split on DB is to ensure that the tap function is always consistent, on ground it's a straight knockdown, in the air it's vertical. The hold is then always the interesting part where on ground it launches and in air it aims.

You see? Tailwind style dashing is no longer needed beacause the passive is faster than sprinting, and escape isn't needed as much because you always have a radial knock down at a tap.

[Azzaruth]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Now, I definitely hear where you're coming from, but Dive Bomb isn't for the landing or even specifically for the movement.

The passive glide handles all the actual speedy traversal and the fast grounding (hold crouch and release aim glide to land fast). This is so that the two functions are inherently separate, but function well together. Movement on movement, attack, launch and evade on ability.

So the reason for the split on DB is to ensure that the tap function is always consistent, on ground it's a straight knockdown, in the air it's vertical. The hold is then always the interesting part where on ground it launches and in air it aims.

You see? Tailwind style dashing is no longer needed beacause the passive is faster than sprinting, and escape isn't needed as much because you always have a radial knock down at a tap.

Yes, but tailwind is also a lot more for the burst of speed, forced movement change, and midair ascent. With Zephyr's floaty movement she isn't quite great for descent without tailwind either. And we all see what happens when you give a frame free midair movement with no dash, LOOKING AT YOU TITANIA AND WUKONG! It's faster than sprint, but there will be a lot of times, like most of the time where you will want a good burst of speed, or it will feel sluggish. And honestly almost painful to use, in which case, I'd mostly just miss my tailwind as it would have been faster, and maybe even more controllable. Straight down movement is rarely valuable, especially with ground slams in our innate abilities, targetable dashes however are one of the better skills in the game, and Zephyr has the best one as it can ascend unlike every other dash in the game.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Zephyr-Prime said:

Zephyr has the best one as it can ascend unlike every other dash in the game.

Again, I hear where you're coming from, I was dubious about the lack of a dash too, but it came to me that the dash, while it's great as part of the current kit, wouldn't be needed in the new kit.

The passive is designed to accelerate quickly, as fast or faster than using a bullet jump, to a speed where you're attaining not merely 'a little faster' than sprinting, but 'as-fast-as-Volt's-speed' faster. Titania can suck the wake.

And while you may say that a mid-air descent is not very called for, it's actually the main reason people don't like her passive in the first place, or at least it's by far the most common reason stated by forum posters that suggest removing low-grav from her passive. Likewise you have your vertical movement in the other casts, it's still there, and for reduced cost too if you're in air.

My point with this is that the dash, such as it is now, will not be necessary. You might miss it at first, but with the new ability, the expanded passive and the vertical launches from abilities to aid traversal, I'm founding the basis of this Tailwind removal in the concept that you won't need the dash as it exists now ever again. The instant radial knock down and the herding away of enemies with the new 2 should, in practice, negate the need for a dedicated dash ability as an escape method, the vertical launches from on ground and in air will not impede your flow, and the acceleration from the aim glide as you activate it will simulate a Tailwind dash with far more control over it. And think of mods that we don't use all that much now, such as Patagium, if those count in towards the mobility on Zephyr's passive then we could get ludicrous amounts of mobility out of the frame!

One of my side points I'd like to make is that Tailwind as it stands is really not what I think it should be. The animation lock, the duration-based distance, the way you're almost forced to use it in order to make Dive Bomb actually have enough height to deal what damage it can deal... Any slight mis-aim could have you face-planting the topiary for as long as it takes the momentum to die, and when you don't mod Zephyr for long duration the argument that Bullet Jump performs better is actually not all that far wrong.

So as it stands, if I had to choose one of Zephyr's abilities to completely remove and instead compensate for in other ways, it's Tailwind. Dive Bomb has more mechanics to work with and more room for improvement, plus at the same energy cost, it already has the bare base power of a 1 cast.

Now please don't get me wrong, this actual decision, this single idea to take out Tailwind, I mean... TAILWIND?! of all things? This is what took me the longest to get to grips with. So I'm completely understanding of why you and others will find it a little hard to get around. But you have to look at it from the in-game play, and not with Zephyr as a dashing frame, but from Zephyr as a combat frame, because regardless of people's arguments about her being an air caster, a flying frame, a non-damage frame, any of that... she is primarily a character created to deal with wave after wave after mob of enemies charging at her with guns and rockets and machetes.

And that's why I took it out. We don't need the dash, we have high speed movement, vertical launches from the ground and in the air, and the rest is all functional to use against the enemy or in personal defense.

[Zorim]

You've put a lot of thought into this rework, and it's fundamentally sound. Two things to consider:

1)  The potential damage on the reworked 1 and 4 seems high. If 1 accepts all melee damage mods, it could easily be exploited.  Similarly, 4 would be overpowered at starchart and solo play levels.  I don't think having 1 build the melee counter is a good idea - too easy to exploit with Body Count and Blood Rush.  It's a sad fact of game balance that the devs have to account for munchkin play, not what's reasonable and sensible, so the proposed numbers would have to be tweaked. But that should be an easy fix.

2)  I really want to keep Zephyr's low grav. That extra bit of control in the air makes it much easier for me to exploit the third dimension while playing Zephyr, and that's the key quality which makes her unique.

The rest looks good. Anything that makes her 4 helpful to a team will make Zephyr players rejoice.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, Zorim said:

You've put a lot of thought into this rework, and it's fundamentally sound. Two things to consider:

1)  The potential damage on the reworked 1 and 4 seems high. If 1 accepts all melee damage mods, it could easily be exploited.  Similarly, 4 would be overpowered at starchart and solo play levels.  I don't think having 1 build the melee counter is a good idea - too easy to exploit with Body Count and Blood Rush.  It's a sad fact of game balance that the devs have to account for munchkin play, not what's reasonable and sensible, so the proposed numbers would have to be tweaked. But that should be an easy fix.

2)  I really want to keep Zephyr's low grav. That extra bit of control in the air makes it much easier for me to exploit the third dimension while playing Zephyr, and that's the key quality which makes her unique.

The rest looks good. Anything that makes her 4 helpful to a team will make Zephyr players rejoice.

Hi! Thanks for stopping in.

So, to address your points quickly:

1. Sure, that's a fair point about building the melee counter, but I kinda want to encourage that type of play, or at least have it as a semi-secret way to encourage the air-dive portion of the ability. Building for melee counter exploitation is a bit of a crazy option in terms of player base, and I wanted to draw in the more extreme melee types, without invalidating the ability for those that don't use it. A key feature might be that it scales from mods, but not from the counter, so its damage, while good, would cap out, meaning that it's the CC that lasts, not the damage cast.

2. Zephyr's low grav is still there, it's what I'm building the new passive on top of, and why I made sure to include a function that lets her quickly head downwards (due to many people actually disliking the frame due to low grav 'interfering with how they usually play'... yeah... apparently that's a thing...).

I personally love the passive, and I wouldn't want it to change if I could see clear to leaving it alone, but without Tailwind you need that air speed, thus the high-speed glide function.

Really glad you like the overall rework though, thanks again!

[blacklusterseph]

The Passive:

My preference here would actually be momentum control which I brought up previously. What I'd like to see with her passive is if you are aim gliding and you hit backward, you can come to a complete stop in mid air and drift downwards at her usual slow drop speed. I'd like this for any direction such that if you were jumping forwards, and started an aim glide, if you held backwards long enough you could actually reverse direction. This would all be while descending (so not flight) but a controlled fall where you have more movement and unrestricted aiming. You can already end her down drift early by rolling out of it so I guess a fast descent on crouch is fine although I don't feel it is that necessary.

1&2:

My personal preference here would have actually been to keep Tail Wind and replace Dive Bomb. If Tail Wind had the escape factor and on cross hair aiming with the advertised knockdown/ragdoll/whatever I think it would be an incredibly good skill by itself that no other frame in the game has. It would be entirely worth casting by itself in a vast range of situations from utility to just having fun. It can be coupled with turbulence to give increased range to its CC effect but that wouldn't be necessary if you didn't want to use it like that.

Dive Bomb

As I mentioned in the other thread I am at somewhat of a loss for this ability but I honestly feel like it is the least needed part of Zephyr's kit. That being said I know that many people have certain expectations of it in terms of CC and combining with Heavy Impact. I'll throw out a suggestion then that this skill becomes more melee like ie. it becomes 'Dive Kick' or something to that effect. Hitting the 2 would have its own little baked-in jumping animation that ends in a powerful stomp that does what Dive Bomb currently does but castable in any situation and tileset. It can be cast in the air (more dmg with height), gets a bonus from heavy impact, and can be buffed by Turbulence (more CC range).

 

I guess the main take-away if nothing else is that I really, really, really like Tail Wind and I feel that CC/hard escape functionality is worth the energy cost of an ability slot.

Edited June 12, 2017 by blacklusterseph

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

My preference here would actually be momentum control which I brought up previously. What I'd like to see with her passive is if you are aim gliding and you hit backward, you can come to a complete stop in mid air and drift downwards at her usual slow drop speed.

Hah, this is exactly what you'll be able to do, but more than that, if you hold crouch and release Aim Glide you'll drop at an increased rate (normal falling for other frames). I specifically included both of those options, so if you don't move forward you don't just 'hover', but fall slowly, but if you move forward you accelerate into the faster-than-sprint speed quickly.

As for your views on DB versus TW as to which is more useful... honestly we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. If the passive has the movement and Dive Bomb has the vertical escape and aim-able slam, then there's no need for Tailwind at all.

As I said to our other debate partner, Zephyr-Prime, before this; I regreat the loss of Tailwind as a distinct cast, however as a functioning frame it becomes unnecessary when you have much higher base mobility in the passive and all the upwards vertical movement as part of her other casts anyway. More than that, considering DB now has the on-ground knock down function and you have Dervish as a directional CC cast, that is your escape in close quarters, you are not required to leap skywards to make your abilities useful.

I think your view is being a little biased simply based on how bad DB is now, thanks to the mechanical and positioning problems it currently has, and you're not looking at what this rework is planning to achieve. And that achievement is a new take on how Zephyr plays as a warframe. Not what's the most fun or similar to how she plays now, a true 2.0 on the frame.

This whole rework is based on the concept that Tailwind has the least room for growth out of the choice between it and Dive Bomb, so it's the one that gets taken out and compensated for with other aspects, while the other gets upped to a fully-functional 1 ability.

[Brisante]

first of all nice job, the passive is what i was looking for. But glide losing altitude (like wingsuit) would be more "realistic" in my opinion. What do you think?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Brisante said:

first of all nice job, the passive is what i was looking for. But glide losing altitude (like wingsuit) would be more "realistic" in my opinion. What do you think?

Plausible, but would force players to use the vertical movement to stay airborne and be unable to glide in confined spaces (sure there's no ankle-height gliding, but head high through a ship should be possible)... could have a duration of no-grav and then after that altitude is lost?

Thanks for stopping in!

[DreadWhisper]

One word. 'Yes'

[Birdframe_Prime]

59 minutes ago, DreadWhisper said:

One word. 'Yes'

In return: Thanks ^^

[blacklusterseph]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Not what's the most fun or similar to how she plays now, a true 2.0 on the frame.

Maybe define a "2.0 frame" because I don't see how what you are suggesting acheives that over anything else. If the defining point is "synergy" you can do that just as easily with Tail Wind.

Functionally I don't like Dive Bomb because of the requirements for use. Even with the reworks you propose, I don't feel like it makes a justified promotion to a 1 skill over what you can do with a modified Tail Wind.

I don't mind being on an island about it, but I really do think that the assertion that parkour makes Tail Wind redundant is false.

Edited June 13, 2017 by blacklusterseph

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

I don't mind being on an island about it, but I really do think that the assertion that parkour makes Tail Wind redundant is false.

It is false, you're not on an island. I'm asserting that, first, buffed movement for Zephyr herself (via the expanded passive) will make it part-way redundant due to the high speed movement from point-to-point while in the air, and that, second, the expanding of what is called Dive Bomb now, plus additional function in Dervish, will make it the rest of the way redundant due to the escape functions being covered.

I'm also saying that the little 'revelation' I had with the comment 'we've got Zephyr 0.8 and we're working towards 1.0' was actually something that took me a while to wrap my head around too.

Zephyr 2.0 I would define as a frame that has four distinct, independent casts that all function without each other. That her abilities shouldn't force you to cast one to get the other.

The synergy, as such, is not based on one ability buffing another, but that casting in a pattern yields net gains. Like Nidus having a 1 that returns energy for every enemy hit, and a 2 that groups enemies together so you can hit more at once, those two abilities are completely independent of each other in function, one being damage in a direct line the other being CC in a radius, and neither one actually having a function that directly buffs the other... but they synergise because they're complete and complimentary casts on their own.

Now you'll look at me and say 'well tailwind functions as it is, but dive bomb doesn't, obviously dive bomb is the ability that gets removed'. And that's what everyone initially thinks. That's the problem I had with getting around this whole issue. That's what I wracked my brains with for so long, because I know Tailwind is a functional 1 cast for what it does.

But what if 'what it does'... just isn't good enough? I mean... if you can take the entirety of the ability out by making her passive do high-speed lateral movement for no energy, while parkour and the secondary functions of her abilities cover for the 'upwards' and 'escape' part for low energy... if I can do that with Tailwind, and negate the need for it as a cast entirely... then why is it a cast at all?

This is what hit me. Tailwind doesn't need to be a cast at all. As much as you may argue that it does, or that it can be buffed, it doesn't need to be a ability cast.

I had to look further. Because when it comes down to it, I didn't want to get rid of it.

But no matter how I twisted the puzzle pieces, there is no ability that I could add to Tailwind that would actually make it a balanced 1 cast without shifting the focus of the cast to CC or Damage or a buff/debuff cast. If I make Tailwind have an aimable explosion at the end, I'm creating Dive Bomb, but less useful. If I put on a ragdoll or a knock down during the cast... I'm not adding anything a player could exploit properly because they would always be going through or over the combat, not actually taking part in it, and any CC they gain from that function is not better than the function of instant radial knock down I've put on with my rework here.

Dive Bomb has the better room for expansion. As much as I hate to admit it myself. Because Dive Bomb in air is a start. It doesn't function well now because all you do with it is the two functions: you either cast it low to get quick and unhappy CC, or you cast it high to get unhappy damage and the same inconsistent CC. It also has no ground-based function. People have argued already that Dive Bomb is incomplete because it should have the launch necessary for its own height multiplier, not Tailwind. The argument holds weight, especially if Tailwind itself is weak enough to be removed.

By making the default function of Dive Bomb the on-ground knock down, you change up how Zephyr plays. She no longer needs her default to be an escape or reposition. She no longer needs Tailwind as an escape function because she now has a knock down radius and also a directional CC with Dervish. So her escape becomes a secondary function. With her buffed passive she no longer needs the dash cast, because she dashes every time she activates Aim Glide and pushes forwards. With this, the two functions you want from Tailwind are covered.

In short...

It doesn't 'justify promoting Dive Bomb to a 1 skill', it does justify demoting Dive Bomb to a 1 skill and putting in a valid 2 skill. With these changes, Zephyr doesn't need Tailwind as a cast.

[blacklusterseph]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The synergy, as such, is not based on one ability buffing another, but that casting in a pattern yields net gains. Like Nidus having a 1 that returns energy for every enemy hit, and a 2 that groups enemies together so you can hit more at once, those two abilities are completely independent of each other in function, one being damage in a direct line the other being CC in a radius, and neither one actually having a function that directly buffs the other... but they synergise because they're complete and complimentary casts on their own.

I don't feel Nidus-like synergy should be the goal. Many frames have outstanding abilities with little to no synergy. I think viable abilities with strong links to the warframe theme are all that is necessary.

Quote

It doesn't 'justify promoting Dive Bomb to a 1 skill', it does justify demoting Dive Bomb to a 1 skill and putting in a valid 2 skill. With these changes, Zephyr doesn't need Tailwind as a cast.

I am hesitant to absorb tail wind into the passive because Zephyr's stock movement already differs so much from other frames. I think there is value in leaving Tail wind as a cast since it lets you manage when you want to use it and also to use the mod system to tinker with it's effects as i currently do.

 

 

EDIT: sorry for this truncated response. I had typed more but the forum lost my edits for some reason and I can't be bothered to re-type all of it.

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by blacklusterseph

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

EDIT: sorry for this truncated response. I had typed more but the forum lost my edits for some reason and I can't be bothered to re-type all of it.

Happens to me all the time ^^

Ah well, you aren't wrong about the 'nidus like' synergy not necessarily being the goal, but then again, we don't want 'Saryn like', and it's highly unlikely we'll get 'Octavia like'. While I would settle for 'Oberon like' if it happened, where one ability is good on its own and then buffs another situationally, I also feel like there's little call for that either. At least with Zephyr's kit. Then again, if you look at some of the best frames out there, the abilities they have are good on their own, but play into each other too, like Loki or Mesa, Volt even Banshee.

And if I can't convince you, then that's okay, I'll let you be unconvinced. 

 

[Brisante]

On 12/06/2017 at 4:22 PM, Thaylien said:

Plausible, but would force players to use the vertical movement to stay airborne and be unable to glide in confined spaces (sure there's no ankle-height gliding, but head high through a ship should be possible)... could have a duration of no-grav and then after that altitude is lost?

Thanks for stopping in!

Sincerely, i was thinking about other ways to keep her in the air, challenging the player somehow. Maybe using the enemies (killing or hitting them while gliding to gain altitude), or elements of the room (paying attention to "signals popping on the screen", maybe).

Think about it like a minigame that rewards you with nice animations and more time to stay in the air, instead of a flight focused on the freedom of flying, like i think you're proposing.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, Brisante said:

Think about it like a minigame that rewards you with nice animations and more time to stay in the air, instead of a flight focused on the freedom of flying, like i think you're proposing.

Well, that is different from the angle I thought you were going for, but also overcomplicating.

It's not about the joys of flight, I hate flight as an 'ability', but this rework does remove her actual cast for dashing into and through the air. So the passive is to compensate for the loss of instant high-speed dashing, not for flying.

[Cyba_Zero]

This build as per the original post is quite possibly the best suggestion I have seen yet, including from your other thread. The passive keeps the low-gravity that makes her fun, fixes the low door problem and adds even more functionality. I love the idea of her abilities having slight differences between ground and air casts and the sheer range of options to choose from. These would make her very versatile and fun once mastered, although trickier to get used to than some frames (then again she already is, but it is good to have some frames harder to learn yet with good potential if you can truly unlock it.) You have belayed my worries about removing tailwind already from other people's questions, so I only have one tiny thing to add really: with the new Dive-Bomb it would feel more intuitive if, when aimed such that Zephyr dives at an angle, she then slides/skids a little way in that direction on landing (due to momentum). This would be more natural and add flow to her movements and while harder to master, you already have included an option (to not aim and simply drop vertically) that players could use if they find it difficult.

Overall, really good ideas again @Thaylien.

[Luvina]

if zephyr can have that amazing glide in the air like KH that is indeed amazing

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Cyba_Zero said:

when aimed such that Zephyr dives at an angle, she then slides/skids a little way in that direction on landing (due to momentum)

Tricky, but possible, sure it would just be the angle detection system that we already have in Warframe that dictates how far we would slide but the way radial results on casts work currently might make that tricky to pull off.

Thanks for the encouragement!

1 hour ago, SometimesPie said:

if zephyr can have that amazing glide in the air like KH that is indeed amazing

The glide is just because of the lack of Tailwind, we needed to keep her fast movement options otherwise I couldn't have called myself a fan ^^ But yeah, the KH Super Glide has been proposed by a lot of people, it seems like the best fit in this particular case.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 6/10/2017 at 4:09 PM, Thaylien said:

Okay, I've got it.

I don't. 

How am I supposed to leave feedback to this :-/
I've been involved in every discussion with you on Zephyr and I see the inspirations of each and every thread/idea merged into this. Good Job.
We both have 2 methods of reaching the same goal with this Zephyr so its weird haha.

I say glide with sprint, you revamp current aimglide. 
I say knock them back and hold them in place while you say bring them together and push them out.

However Aimglide seems like a strange choice to me for the passive. Its usually whats used to stop momentum, not enhance it. The feature is set to hold you in place for better aiming. This technique however accumulates to infinite aimglide while moving. Or perhaps Zephyr transitions into a different animation when she reaches a certain speed or something? I wish the transition would be more instant though. Acceleration through aimglide sounds sluggish vs an instant transition to glide but not bad at all. 

Dervish also seemed strange to me at first with the boosting altitude but I remember the propasal haha. I feel as if I can point out each and every source for the inspiration of this thread. 

I can't support any of the hold mechanics though. If you don't understand what I mean from using M&K think about how fun it is to use The Tenora or pathera alt fire and its the same frustration. They are functionally the most annoying mechanic available on a controller and feel rather unnecessary. A vertical divebomb launch would knockdown enemies. Even in a small room that should be enough to escape without a ground spam skill. You sure did pull no punches with the skill this time though, so I applaud you for that. 

• Instant Grounded CC
• Vertical Launch (CC?)
• Aimable Crash Scaled by Melee. 

I'll leave more feedback as I continue to reread and try to imagine these techniques in game.