Zephyr, Shock and Awe ::Updated August 9th::

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I can't support any of the hold mechanics though.

Ahh, now this is something that could be just a mis-understanding, see you've already got frames that use these. Ivara and Vauban for the tap/hold switch between their utility abilities, and Nidus has the tap cast, hold to aim function.

It's more an extension of the utility abilities, so the difference between a tap and hold on Dive Bomb now is that a tap does the knock down, but the hold does the knock down first, then allows you a half second of delay before launching so that you can not launch if you're having a bit of a fat-finger day and want to stay grounded.

Likewise, if you're aim-gliding the difference between tap and hold is just an aiming thing, the same way you aim a firearms, you don't have to charge anything up, it's just a matter of difference between hip fire and sighting, so hip fire on Dive Bomb goes straight down, while hip fire on Dervish goes straight up, aim fire on Dive Bomb goes where you aim it, and aim fire on Dervish starts it where you place it.

And as for the glide passive extension, yeah, I thought about the dash function, so the aim is to make sure that the acceleration is rapid, as rapid as a bullet jump actually, so if you're moving in a direction and aim glide then you're dashing. That said... my only reason for doing this over the hold of the jump button is because people already jump and aim glide as part of normal movement, they don't jump and hold jump, not in any normal movement, they jump and jump again and use aim glide as more a distance extension. More advanced movement often uses Aim Glide as a way to allow in-air casts to not hit the ground, or to dive-roll so that the speed increases... People have a lot of ways to get around the slowness of the basic Aim Glide but if Zephyr's is found to make them Zoom? That's going to be fun for them, in my opinion. That said... a rebind option for consoles might be appropriate, but I can attest to the PC preference that moving around holding Space Bar isn't as easy as moving holding Right Click.

[Azamagon]

Yeah, this is the kind of rework I'd be looking forward to for Zephyr!

Now, for some questions, suggestions and discussion:

Dive Bomb

1. Considering the multitude of uses, maybe rename it? Gale Force is a popular (and fitting) name.
2. I honestly think the damage proposed seems fine, because it's not exactly a rapid attack. Compare to Mesa and Excal, they can kill many spreadout enemies very rapidly, with huge numbers and very little setup. Zephyr needs to go up, aim at a good spot, then fall down into the midst of combat before anything even happens. Good damage is to be expected from that, imo.
3. Also, how about making the modded range scale further with height (with some cap, i suppose)? This gives even further incentive to gain height before Divebombing.
4. Now a question: Is the aimable Dive Bomb (holdcast in air) supposed to only be useable in a downwards angle (at max straightforward-ish?), or is it aimable above the horizon, meaning upwards, too? Because I can personally see myself getting use of an upwards-ish Dive Bo-... umm, Flight Crash :)
   This horizontal/upwards one shouldn't scale with distance though, it'd always have the minimum Divebombing effects. Thus, the optimal use of it is always one with any kind of downwards direction.
   Further, this would keep some pseudo-version of old Tailwind in her kit (more like a hybrid of TW and DB).
5. For the sake of diversity among Warframes (thinking a bit of Banshee's Sonic Boom here), I personally think that she doesn't need both the tap- and holdcast versions of the grounded Dive Bomb. The proposed holdcasted groundversion (AoE-effects + upwards flight/jump) would, imo, be enough as the tapcasted groundcast. That way, I can see this control scheme happen:

• Tapcast on ground = AoE knockdown and upwards flight/jump
• Tapcast in air = Divebomb straight down
• Holdcast, wether on air or on the ground = Aimable (upwards too!) Divebombing.
  
  Personally, I'd find that more fitting and fun. But that's just my take on it ^_^

Passive
So, yeah, this is obviously one way to do the "Tailwind is her passive" kind of thing. What I like about it is that it already puts a limit to steering speeds and such (due to how aimglide works, with the WASD-controls and all that), so props for that! It also let's her fly and fight at the same time quite smoothly (as opposed to the "hold jump to fly continuously forward", which would require constant re-aiming and to let go of jump and/or use aimglide whenever you wanna fly AND fight at the same time).
But I still have some questions and/or concerns:

1. Since this is an upgrade of the aimgliding, this means she can only do this speedboosting parallell to the ground, right? (Sorry if I'm not so good at understanding/explaining all these things so well, I'll excuse it with English not being my first language :P). If so, that actually is a loss in control and maneuverability, beause the current Tailwind can do a certain movement which I do surprisingly often (mostly with bulletjump, but still); going from A to B in a diagonally upwards+forward direction. With the loss of Tailwind + this version of passive Tailwind, she wouldn't be able to do that as far up+forward as she can now.
2. Does this speedboosting come with an increased (unlimited?) duration to aimgliding? Otherwise, it'd definitely be a MASSIVE loss of her potential aerial maneuverability (considering she can stay unlimitedly long midair (energy aside) right now due to Tailwind, as tedious as it might be). If she got unlimited aimgliding along with it, I don't think I'd care too much about the first point (inability to dash at various vertical angles)
3. I might've misunderstood you with what you said in the OP, but the ability to steer and turn (via the WASD-buttons + aiming) while aimgliding, that is not something exclusive to Zephyr as far as I'm aware.

Dervish
Considering the difference in midair and grounded casts, I can see this ability getting a little confusing. Couldn't the "lift upwards" be moved into her passive arsenal? Like, unlimited "double"jumps? Or even better; holding jump takes her upwards, as a contrast to crouch making her fall downwards, which would also be somewhat easy to handle for console players, I presume?

If crouch/jump controls her down/up movements (i.e. the Y-axis), while aimglide covers the X-axis, I would have absolutely zero complaints about this rework! :)
Note: It would actually be rather natural too, because players already have exactly that up/down control scheme in Archwing.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Ahh, now this is something that could be just a mis-understanding, see you've already got frames that use these. Ivara and Vauban for the tap/hold switch between their utility abilities, and Nidus has the tap cast, hold to aim function.

With a controllers limited buttons, these skills are a grievance to use.

The skill would make more sense if you switched tap for the lift and hold for the AoE considering that would prevent spam naturally.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

And as for the glide passive extension, yeah

I still personally think that these functions would work better separated with the glide through toggling sprint. I only imagine the vote against it is that Azamagon has sprint binded so that he must hold it to continue sprinting rather than a toggle. The feature remains as a mobility tool rather than an infinite strafe run. 

 

 

[Azamagon]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I still personally think that these functions would work better separated with the glide through toggling sprint. I only imagine the vote against it is that Azamagon has sprint binded so that he must hold it to continue sprinting rather than a toggle. The feature remains as a mobility tool rather than an infinite strafe run.

Actually, I don't like her having the flightstuff on sprint is because I feel it would be clunky and that it doesn't mesh well with the control schemes.

We already have sprint and roll on shift (it's the default, and that's what I use too), so it could easily turn into a midair roll, rather than a flight, if you use it wrong. Having a THIRD entirely new thing to keep track of with the same button could get too messy, imo.

But aimgliding is something we already use a lot, so expanding on aimgliding for Zephyr's passive, as per @Thaylien's suggestion sounds great to me.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay, I'm going to go through this in order with one exception:

I think we'll be arguing ad infinitum on the glide controls here, and somebody is going to lose out no matter what. All three of us agree, though, that a fast, dash-comparable glide passive is good, right? Right!

It's up to DE, with their testing and controller/keyboard side-by-side comparisons to come up with something that works for both (although you know they're going to bias towards PC first and then try and make it work on console later... what can you do?).

So, let's go with points raised:

Thanks for more positive feedback Az, I'll try to keep my reply concise.

While renaming is subjective to the rework ethics for DE, and I'm glad you like the damage variance, this is something I would address:

18 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Also, how about making the modded range scale further with height (with some cap, i suppose)? This gives even further incentive to gain height before Divebombing.

I specifically didn't change the range for the in-air version, because this way you have no difference in CC for either cast, making sure that the on-ground knock down is just as strong and viable as the in-air. If anything, with Dive Bomb Vortex equipped the on ground version might actually be the stronger CC cast at higher level where the damage has fallen off.

18 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Is the aimable Dive Bomb (holdcast in air) supposed to only be useable in a downwards angle

Yes it is, it's designed to be a dive because, while you can see yourself using an upwards or nearly horizontal bomb, it neither has a real function aiming higher than the floor, nor is it ever supposed to be a traversal tool. Dive Bomb is an attack on ground targets, and so the distance you can aim it away from vertical is a specified value and it can be range modded to go further and allow a much shallower angle of descent for when you're in low quarters and need to attack more forwards than down. If you want to go up, tap 2 in air, just hop and tap 2 or do a quick hold of 1 on the ground.

Moreover, I didn't want it to have damage fall-off at longer range, just a straight up buff to damage the higher you are, regardless of angle.

18 hours ago, Azamagon said:

For the sake of diversity among Warframes (thinking a bit of Banshee's Sonic Boom here), I personally think that she doesn't need both the tap- and holdcast versions of the grounded Dive Bomb. The proposed holdcasted groundversion (AoE-effects + upwards flight/jump) would, imo, be enough as the tapcasted groundcast.

A fair point, but this is exactly the reason I didn't do several things, and did do a couple of others. Banshee's forwards attack is a full ragdoll on enemies and even has an augment for armour stripping. It specifically has a base range of 15m which mods to over 37m of directional CC. Zephyr's is instead a radial one with a base range of 7m, and a max range of 17, a build that allows for positive Strength (for Jet Stream) would then only max out at 10m. It's also weaker CC as it only knocks down (without Dive Bomb Vortex).

So I didn't overpower the cast compared to Banshee, especially as it will only ever do minimum damage on the ground, un-affected by melee mods, so there's not many places where it would actually kill mobs outside of the very early game (like Sonic Boom). I specifically made sure that the on-ground CC was a distinct style and function from Sonic Boom.

On the other hand, the launch function was another deliberate separation. My problem with Tailwind as it stands (besides the functional issues with the ability in general) is that on ground you always launch. It's always upwards, not even very much in the direction of travel. The ability gives you no choice in the matter, your first recourse on encountering an enemy is 'run away', and previous reworks of mine have separated the cast for exactly that reason, so old thinking made me do 'tap to dash, hold to launch' because people would rather dash than launch, and people would rather dash through an enemy with a ragdoll than dash away from them. Same function here, but for a more specific reason: if you've just knocked everything in a short radius around you down, why would you want to be thirty feet above them unless you were deliberately doing it for the Bomb portion? If you were on low ranked missions for prime parts, for example, you'd rather knock them down and shoot them in the face. People would hate Excal if every time he cast Radial Blind he also Slash Dashed into the air and had to land before he could stab things that he'd just blinded. Even more so if you're using melee for Zephyr.

It's that tactical choice; knock down and attack with gun or melee in the opening versus knock down and launch for an ability attack on the grouped enemies or as an escape function.

19 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Considering the difference in midair and grounded casts, I can see this ability getting a little confusing.

I hadn't considered that, actually. My thinking was that, if you're in air, how do you put Dervish where you want it to be? You can't always be looking down because you're gliding to maintain altitude, but if you aim it then it'll start directly where you put it and head out for the duration of the cast.

Yeah, I can see it being a little confusing, but the way I see it is that if you tap-cast Dervish in air, it tries to place it where you are, but as there's no ground it can only last a fraction of the duration and so just provides a short updraft.

I might have to think about that for a while longer... actually, maybe the whole aiming thing might...

Hmm...

I have an idea, and it might work. We'll see if I can make a better version in a bit.

On thing I won't be doing, though, is using the multiple jump options. Sorry Az, but that's just not the kind of control confusion I could do, that's genuinely over-complicating the passive to me.

Now, let's see...

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I still personally think that these functions would work better separated with the glide through toggling sprint. I only imagine the vote against it is that Azamagon has sprint binded so that he must hold it to continue sprinting rather than a toggle. The feature remains as a mobility tool rather than an infinite strafe run. 

That's the thing, sadly, the controller setup is going to be secondary consideration. Maybe DE will make it function differently for console...

Then again, wait for my idea, I'll run it through as many simulations as I can and see if you like that better.

[AlphaPHENIX]

On 11.06.2017 г. at 2:09 AM, Thaylien said:

Scouring Dervish; Dervish clears all placed hazards in its way, such as Napalm balls, Sapper Orbs, Toxin Clouds, Mines, Grenades, Mutalist Tar and Mutalist Swarms.

If this is a dream then I don't to wake up.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

If this is a dream then I don't to wake up.

I have been waiting for somebody to notice that! Thanks ^^

[Endless_Destruction]

On 6/10/2017 at 7:09 PM, Thaylien said:

In addition enemies that are thrown by Tornado funnels suffer as enemies do when thrown by Snowglobe; impact with geometry causes finisher damage up to 50% of their max health, so hitting the ceiling or the floor can potentially finish off enemies that survive.

I feel so validated.

There are really only two things I feel the need to comment on. First, Tornado speed: You mentioned they would/should move faster, but I'd like a specific number in regards to enemy speed. 70% of enemy speed? As fast as? Faster? Modifiable with Power Strength? I feel that this is an aspect of the ability that could make a huge difference in game.

The second thing. An objection raised by someone here was the potential abuse of melee and Dive Bomb. You replied with:

On 6/12/2017 at 9:53 AM, Thaylien said:

1. Sure, that's a fair point about building the melee counter, but I kinda want to encourage that type of play, or at least have it as a semi-secret way to encourage the air-dive portion of the ability. Building for melee counter exploitation is a bit of a crazy option in terms of player base, and I wanted to draw in the more extreme melee types, without invalidating the ability for those that don't use it. A key feature might be that it scales from mods, but not from the counter, so its damage, while good, would cap out, meaning that it's the CC that lasts, not the damage cast.

If ground cast for Dive Bomb does not add hits to the combo counter, then ignore the rant below. I have no issue, great rework! Yours are the few that I actually like on the forum.

You do NOT want to encourage that kind of play. Just on principle, having built in abuse is not good design. I can't think of a single example where intended abuse has ended well, except in games completely bent around the idea of abuse to get through. It isn't a "crazy option" in terms of playerbase either, counter exploitation is already a well known and used tool, and will put Zephyr almost at pre-nerf Limbo levels of OP. Put Natural Talent on Zephyr, and with Energy Flow and large range, you could get a combo counter up high even faster than macro'ed slide attacks, and room clear at levels that other frames could only dream of, and in a single swing of a well modded melee weapon, no less, due to your DB-boosted Combo Counter! You'd have Equinox level work-up-and-nuke, except the work up won't go away, you can just keep nuking. As one of those extreme melee types, (my aim sucks) I would abuse the heck out of combo counter boosts. Grouping up enemies with dervish then spamming DB over and over would pretty much guarantee me a way to keep my counter going with zero effort, just tap 1 over and over, then slide attack, repeat with the next group of enemies. Seriously, please revisit the idea of allowing the ground DB adding to the combo counter. Other than that, great rework! Yours are the few that I actually like on the forum.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

13 minutes ago, Endless_Destruction said:

I feel so validated.

There are really only two things I feel the need to comment on. First, Tornado speed: You mentioned they would/should move faster, but I'd like a specific number in regards to enemy speed. 70% of enemy speed? As fast as? Faster? Modifiable with Power Strength? I feel that this is an aspect of the ability that could make a huge difference in game.

The second thing. An objection raised by someone here was the potential abuse of melee and Dive Bomb. You replied with:

If ground cast for Dive Bomb does not add hits to the combo counter, then ignore the rant below. I have no issue, great rework! Yours are the few that I actually like on the forum.

You do NOT want to encourage that kind of play. Just on principle, having built in abuse is not good design. I can't think of a single example where intended abuse has ended well, except in games completely bent around the idea of abuse to get through. It isn't a "crazy option" in terms of playerbase either, counter exploitation is already a well known and used tool, and will put Zephyr almost at pre-nerf Limbo levels of OP. Put Natural Talent on Zephyr, and with Energy Flow and large range, you could get a combo counter up high even faster than macro'ed slide attacks, and room clear at levels that other frames could only dream of, and in a single swing of a well modded melee weapon, no less, due to your DB-boosted Combo Counter! You'd have Equinox level work-up-and-nuke, except the work up won't go away, you can just keep nuking. As one of those extreme melee types, (my aim sucks) I would abuse the heck out of combo counter boosts. Grouping up enemies with dervish then spamming DB over and over would pretty much guarantee me a way to keep my counter going with zero effort, just tap 1 over and over, then slide attack, repeat with the next group of enemies. Seriously, please revisit the idea of allowing the ground DB adding to the combo counter. Other than that, great rework! Yours are the few that I actually like on the forum.

This is part of the reason why I said Dive-bomb grounded on tap should launch and hold should do the AoE thing if the skill even belongs on the frame at all.

@Thaylien I'll be back with new ideas and counter arguments and feedback as time goes on. I need to contemplate more on this more. Consider changing the ground dervish move though. I remember suggesting The old Boltace passive becoming a skill for Zephyr and everyone knocked it for spam so this makes sense too.

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

1) While renaming is subjective to the rework ethics for DE

2) I specifically didn't change the range for the in-air version, because this way you have no difference in CC for either cast, making sure that the on-ground knock down is just as strong and viable as the in-air. If anything, with Dive Bomb Vortex equipped the on ground version might actually be the stronger CC cast at higher level where the damage has fallen off.

3) Yes it is, it's designed to be a dive -snip-

4) A fair point, but this is exactly the reason I didn't do several things, and did do a couple of others. -snip-

5) I hadn't considered that, actually. -snip-

6) On thing I won't be doing, though, is using the multiple jump options. Sorry Az, but that's just not the kind of control confusion I could do, that's genuinely over-complicating the passive to me.

1) Sure, was just a though :)

2) Because, then you always know what range it'll be. Reliable. I can agreed with that.

3) Fair enough. It's also more clear like that, with far less variables to consider (such as, max limit forward/upward distances etc). Keeping it as a downwards dive, keeps it plain and simple. Can't disagreed with that

4) All good points.
Also, Divebomb Vortex with the groundcast actually sounds like a new fun melee playstyle for her: Pull enemies in, whack 'em a bunch with melee . Not dead? Then do the pull in + upwards jump, then do a melee combo counter-amplified Divebomb. Fits really well! What I also really like about that is that it fits for ANY melee. Sparring, for example, would be amazing here: Ez groud finishers. Rapid combo counter build. The more I think about it, the more I actually want that groundcasted one to stay! :D

5) Im eager to hear your alternatives?

6) Not even the "hold jump = fly up"? That's both intuitive AND something players already get to learn in Archwing after all.

Also, I'm still curious about your opinion on this: Do you think she should get increased aimgliding-time along with her passive?

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay gentlemen, I think the biggest issue with things as they're going now is this division between the console and PC functions. I took a look at the two sets of console controller systems and realised that these are vastly under-geared towards power casting vs movement and weapon play. Kind of atrocious really...

So I've been thinking of re-working a few of my ideas, and the first thing is the targeting for abilities in the air.

Simply put, whichever method we end up using (I'm still all for aim glide since DE fixed the in-air steering for Zephyr during aim glide, it's fun, and all we'd have to do is reverse the process of slowing her down to making it burst her forwards instead) if the targeting is done passively, so a reticule is painted on the ground whenever she's in the air and aiming. This way the aim part of her passive also becomes the aim for in-air casts. This would cover part of @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru's problems with in air aiming being a hold of the ability, since holding abilities on console is a real problem, especially when you're using the movement controls already.

The tap/hold mechanics would then not be needed in air, and the only two issues would be the split I wanted to maintain between Dive Bomb's immediate knock down and its launch and the in-air gain of height. I don't want to lose the opportunities of choice between those functions, and I don't want to overcomplicate movement either.

Because, much like I said to @Azamagon the in-air movement has to be simple. Not simplistic, just... intuitive to players using other warframes, where they find that where Action A does one thing with other frames, it does Action A++ with Zephyr.

The limit, of course, is that her movement currently is energy based casting, and removing that entirely is not going to sit well with DE's philosophy of 'no buff is free', even movement costs energy. Horizontal gliding as a passive boost to regular aim gliding, that we could get away with, but full in-air mobility at speed without some kind of energy cost... not going to happen. Titania and Wukong both have a drain, everyone else that does movement of any kind has a one-off cost.

Except... I kind of want to do a charged jump. Actually I think that could work.

I had just written three paragraphs here as a kind of 'stream of consciousness' writing style, it flowed from one thought to the next in a train of different ideas for the solution, but then it became something a little more solid as I went.

How's this; on ground or in the air, holding Jump for a short duration then performs the launch from the original Tailwind, without the knock down or radial effect. This can be on a kind of charge meter, so movement or time causes it to fill, and at full you can launch skywards for a distance based on your Duration (much like Tailwind does currently) or Range (for more common sense modding).

This means that movement is encouraged on ground, to get you airborne when you need it, but in air you're moving fast anyway so your distance will fill up quickly and allow you multiple boosts upwards over the course of your glide, but doesn't just let you do it constantly.

This would allow the vertical launch to be taken out of the Dive Bomb secondary effect and it will always be just the radial knock down from the caster on ground, or the aimed damage/knock down in air, while Dervish will then always be the CC cast in front of you on ground, and from point of aim in air, and Tornado will have the same split of either from caster on ground or from aimed point of cast in air.

In air, aimed, on ground, from you. Simple split, but makes all the difference. Boost into the air vertically with a held jump, charged up by movement, and glide with Aim Glide with no loss of height if you're moving, while painting an aiming reticule on the ground for all your casts during your travels. Get out of the air quickly with either the drop from crouching and letting go of Aim, or by Dive Bombing a location.

Would that work as a split between controls for both PC and for console?

Would having both the glide and the launch being part of her passive be too much for free? Or would the new balance of her abilities just make her that much more versatile overall that nobody would care about the passive's balance?

Let me know your thoughts, because I'm updating the main post with this.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Okay gentlemen, I think the biggest issue with things as they're going now is this division between the console and PC functions. I took a look at the two sets of console controller systems and realised that these are vastly under-geared towards power casting vs movement and weapon play. Kind of atrocious really...

So I've been thinking of re-working a few of my ideas, and the first thing is the targeting for abilities in the air.

Simply put, whichever method we end up using (I'm still all for aim glide since DE fixed the in-air steering for Zephyr during aim glide, it's fun, and all we'd have to do is reverse the process of slowing her down to making it burst her forwards instead) if the targeting is done passively, so a reticule is painted on the ground whenever she's in the air and aiming. This way the aim part of her passive also becomes the aim for in-air casts. This would cover part of @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru's problems with in air aiming being a hold of the ability, since holding abilities on console is a real problem, especially when you're using the movement controls already.

The tap/hold mechanics would then not be needed in air, and the only two issues would be the split I wanted to maintain between Dive Bomb's immediate knock down and its launch and the in-air gain of height. I don't want to lose the opportunities of choice between those functions, and I don't want to overcomplicate movement either.

Because, much like I said to @Azamagon the in-air movement has to be simple. Not simplistic, just... intuitive to players using other warframes, where they find that where Action A does one thing with other frames, it does Action A++ with Zephyr.

The limit, of course, is that her movement currently is energy based casting, and removing that entirely is not going to sit well with DE's philosophy of 'no buff is free', even movement costs energy. Horizontal gliding as a passive boost to regular aim gliding, that we could get away with, but full in-air mobility at speed without some kind of energy cost... not going to happen. Titania and Wukong both have a drain, everyone else that does movement of any kind has a one-off cost.

Except... I kind of want to do a charged jump. Actually I think that could work.

I had just written three paragraphs here as a kind of 'stream of consciousness' writing style, it flowed from one thought to the next in a train of different ideas for the solution, but then it became something a little more solid as I went.

How's this; on ground or in the air, holding Jump for a short duration then performs the launch from the original Tailwind, without the knock down or radial effect. This can be on a kind of charge meter, so movement or time causes it to fill, and at full you can launch skywards for a distance based on your Duration (much like Tailwind does currently) or Range (for more common sense modding).

This means that movement is encouraged on ground, to get you airborne when you need it, but in air you're moving fast anyway so your distance will fill up quickly and allow you multiple boosts upwards over the course of your glide, but doesn't just let you do it constantly.

This would allow the vertical launch to be taken out of the Dive Bomb secondary effect and it will always be just the radial knock down from the caster on ground, or the aimed damage/knock down in air, while Dervish will then always be the CC cast in front of you on ground, and from point of aim in air, and Tornado will have the same split of either from caster on ground or from aimed point of cast in air.

In air, aimed, on ground, from you. Simple split, but makes all the difference. Boost into the air vertically with a held jump, charged up by movement, and glide with Aim Glide with no loss of height if you're moving, while painting an aiming reticule on the ground for all your casts during your travels. Get out of the air quickly with either the drop from crouching and letting go of Aim, or by Dive Bombing a location.

Would that work as a split between controls for both PC and for console?

Would having both the glide and the launch being part of her passive be too much for free? Or would the new balance of her abilities just make her that much more versatile overall that nobody would care about the passive's balance?

Let me know your thoughts, because I'm updating the main post with this.

I'm curious as to why you want the radial knockdown as a tap feature over a hold feature. 

I'm confused. It being spammed will just bring about pls nerf threads. I'll do a follow-up response after work but I just had to ask

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm confused. It being spammed will just bring about pls nerf threads

Fair question...

First, it can't be spammed if it's animation that can't interrupt itself, enemies would have to fully recover before it could be cast again. Also, do people ask to nerf Banshee's Sonic Boom? Because that's what I'm going for. Shorter range, radial, incredibly low damage on the ground cast, but does simple CC.

I could maybe put in a charge, though, so that a tap only does half the distance, and a hold does the full... that might encourage people to not spam it.

Does that sound plausible?

On the other hand there's a few more arguments. I mean, you and I know that a tap-cast radial knockdown is good, right? But without modding for a max range build and getting the full 17m radius out of it you cap out at just over 10, and that's really close quarters for a frame as unarmoured as Zephyr. If you want a decent strength build capable of hitting for decent damage on 1 and 4, then you're losing that extra 60% radius from Overextended.

And, let's not forget, the hold jump to launch and the passive encourages players to get the height anyway, so they'll be all using the ground-pound portion to start with, then the fun of Dervish once they've used the Dive Bomb, with the options she has for CC, movement and damage, spamming the ground attack just isn't as effective.

Overall I think that the rebalance of where her abilities fit with each other and what they do individually will make for a powerful frame, yes, but in different ways as the situation and her battlefield positioning changes. She's not going to be a replacement for any frame, not specifically, but she will be able to cover roles that she couldn't have before, and she no longer has the same glaring holes in her kit that she had before (infested, anyone?). And that's why I don't think the spam is going to be a thing, and it's also why I don't think people will call for a nerf immediately either.

[Cyba_Zero]

One really good way to have tailwind-style flying around integrated into her passive would be a setup I've seen used in a number of games: hold space to boost in any direction, limited by a 'fuel' meter that refills either upon landing or after a period of not using it. The most recent example I can think of in other games would be Overwatch's Pharah, who plays a lot like Zephyr.

[Azamagon]

14 minutes ago, Cyba_Zero said:

-snip- hold space to boost in any direction -snip-

I've suggested this too and would love that to happen (at least for PC players), but as @Renovakunumaru has pointed out as a counterarguement: That would be HORRIBLE to use on consoles.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Azamagon

[Birdframe_Prime]

23 minutes ago, Cyba_Zero said:

limited by a 'fuel' meter that refills either upon landing or after a period of not using it.

What Az said. Also, this was in effect before, it was called Stamina and DE ditched it because it slowed the game down horribly.

Zephyr's current movement, as a fair extension of Warframe movement in general, is sprint, dash and launch. Hovering is Archwing, which is why Titania and Wukong hover, but in general that kind of movement is more hindering than it is helpful. It's why I have been so adamant that any passive glide has got to be fast, because if it isn't then it won't be better than regular Warframe movement.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 6/22/2017 at 4:44 AM, Thaylien said:

Okay gentlemen, I think the biggest issue with things as they're going now is this division between the console and PC functions

Ok Cool, first thing I'd like to remind you is that this is your rework. This is how you'd like to Zephyr improved and worked on. You have no obligation to me or anyone else for that matter to changes things if you ultimately don't see any lingering issues.

With that said, I'm not sure if you actually think that holding jump to produce a Tailwind effect from the ground and air is viable or you're just trying to meet the needs of unending scrutiny. There's no way we'll all be satisfied with the changes to Zephyr, whatever they are so I'm going to suggest you stick with your original vision. I just throw my 2 cents out there to pass the time.

On 6/22/2017 at 10:28 AM, Thaylien said:

Does that sound plausible?

I honestly just wanted a fast escape. Having vertical launch as a tap felt like a win to me considering you would keep the fast escape and requiring a hold for the AoE skill would in fact keep itself in check by not registering without holding for a certain duration. It cannot be spammed if it cannot be executed without a 1 sec charge being reached.

 

On 6/23/2017 at 2:49 AM, Azamagon said:

I've suggested this too and would love that to happen (at least for PC players), but as @Renovakunumaru has pointed out as a counterarguement: That would be HORRIBLE to use on consoles.

Its funny because my personal control scheme makes this very viable but I'm suggesting against it for the 90% of players who don't use "Bumper Jumper".

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Ok Cool, first thing I'd like to remind you is that this is your rework. This is how you'd like to Zephyr improved and worked on. You have no obligation to me or anyone else for that matter to changes things if you ultimately don't see any lingering issues.

Oh but that's the thing, I don't want to just create my rework, and with that said, listening to the feedback and coming up with changes I wouldn't have thought of because of them is key to how I want this to work.

I'm not changing just to please you, or Az, or the others, I'm changing because you spotted immediate flaws in my setup and I wanted to have a look at making sure they were covered.

Take a re-read of the OP now, see what you think of the changes, it does make them a little passive-heavy, but at the same time it gives you (with bumper-jumper) and other console players the exact same functionality as us PC players, without taking out any of the parts of the abilities or movement that I want to keep.

Compromise is key to creating a change that works for the most amount of people. And a truly great compromise is one where nobody is totally happy, but all can agree on the major points and the minor ones can be made a matter of changing a few preferences.

7 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I honestly just wanted a fast escape. Having vertical launch as a tap felt like a win to me considering you would keep the fast escape and requiring a hold for the AoE skill would in fact keep itself in check by not registering without holding for a certain duration. It cannot be spammed if it cannot be executed without a 1 sec charge being reached.

That's the thing, a fast escape shouldn't be a first ability, not to me anyway. The passive should provide you with a very fast dash as long as you are in air, and a hold-jump to launch should give you the rest of it.

Your first option in combat, the cast that costs you the least energy and is the first one you get with the frame, should be a function that does something in combat. Every other frame has that, whether it's a CC cast, direct damage, a buff or even just a deployable, every frame has something that has an interaction with the enemy. Zephyr's doesn't right now, Zephyr's first response to combat is to run, and that's not something I think is good for the frame.

So having your options be 'engage in combat from the air to the ground' with your passive functions and 1, or 'sprint in close and knock them down' with 1, that's a great change to my sensibilities.

And to me, even with a one second charge on the function, that wouldn't stop spam abuse, what stops spam is ensuring that enemies that are knocked down and recovering can't be knocked down again until they get up fully (which is often a three second function or more, so unless you want a multi-second charge for the AoE you're going to get spam anyway), and ensuring that the range remains small so that if the player wants to get a strong build that exploits the damage part of Dive Bomb and Tornado, they have to repeatedly put themselves in harms way to be able to spam at all.

As far as it goes, I'm confident that the repercussions of this change won't result in people calling for a nerf to the frame, and will bring up Zephyr's use in the game to at least an 'A-' rating, if not a little higher.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Thaylien

[Karav]

I am a little late to the party, but I have to admit that most of the suggestions make sense. I especially like the passive, the divebomb boost, and the new second ability. I'll add more when I have time.

[Synpai]

Just one things to consider....

Allowing Zephyr and her allies to glide in tornadoes while aim-gliding (all they have to do is stop aim gliding to stop). I found myself really wanting to do this as I played her, my glide was slowly dropping and my immediate thought was to go to the tornado. Boom you immediately have a niche for air born mods and your teammates can use them too. The tornado could lend them the jet stream buff (if you have it active) as well as a fire rate/reload speed.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Karav said:

I am a little late to the party

But good to have you anyway ^^

5 hours ago, Synpai said:

Allowing Zephyr and her allies to glide in tornadoes while aim-gliding

In other reworks I suggested making Tornado funnels boost aim-gliders into the air and refreshing the duration, however... two things.

First, Zephyr's aim glide with this rework doesn't sink if she's moving, and second, the funnels for Tornado will move faster and will not go anywhere outside of a range, so it's only a thing if you're camping an objective, it would be difficult and un-intuitive due to the erratic movement as each funnel seeks a new target, and even then it's unreliable if you're not Zephyr or another player with her because other frames can only aim-glide in nearly straight lines. (If you're suggesting that aim-gliding players 'snap' into the middle of funnels and become suspended there, there's a few troubles with that too... not the least of which being the question of 'what if I just wanted to move past, but the funnel grabbed me anyway?')

Thanks for stopping in, I do appreciate the feedback. Tornado, however, has been an annoyance to a vast majority of players for a long time, I personally don't think it's a very good idea to make it have any parts that are invasive to other players' games beyond the level of, say, Tentacle Swarm.

[Synpai]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

In other reworks I suggested making Tornado funnels boost aim-gliders into the air and refreshing the duration, however... two things.

First, Zephyr's aim glide with this rework doesn't sink if she's moving, and second, the funnels for Tornado will move faster and will not go anywhere outside of a range, so it's only a thing if you're camping an objective, it would be difficult and un-intuitive due to the erratic movement as each funnel seeks a new target, and even then it's unreliable if you're not Zephyr or another player with her because other frames can only aim-glide in nearly straight lines. (If you're suggesting that aim-gliding players 'snap' into the middle of funnels and become suspended there, there's a few troubles with that too... not the least of which being the question of 'what if I just wanted to move past, but the funnel grabbed me anyway?')

Thanks for stopping in, I do appreciate the feedback. Tornado, however, has been an annoyance to a vast majority of players for a long time, I personally don't think it's a very good idea to make it have any parts that are invasive to other players' games beyond the level of, say, Tentacle Swarm.

It never hurts to have a back-up. In a world where DE might not actually fully rework a passive into a new movement system...

Consider it more of a refresh/lending of her passive with a slight upward momentum.

It would be considerably less intrusive than the magnetic fields as you have to be both jumping and aiming inside of the tornado . A pretty deliberate action. The literal instant you stop aiming, you stop floating. Aiming while on the ground and inside the tornado would do nothing. Even if it floated/snapped them to the middle, I believe they should be allowed to float out of it . It should be thought of more as an air vent, not an air prison.

But it's all theoretical, so there's no telling how it'd play out.

[Caelward]

If they ever do this rework of Zephyr they should call it "Th' Aylien Invasion", or something similar :D.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, Caelward said:

If they ever do this rework of Zephyr they should call it "Th' Aylien Invasion", or something similar :D.

Glad to have you on board Cael, puns and all ^^

[wezling]

I do like the in air/ground cast idea.
Some issues though:
-Why not have the first ability act as an upgraded bullet jump? You can fly into a group of enemies and knock down everything the way. But then you'd be just like excalibur. The problem with the radial knockdown is the fact that zephyr would be running in face first to enemies to use it. That and I think tailwind is just too iconic for zephyr to leave behind.
-Deverish however seems like tornado all over again though, just small scale.
-Turbulence would need some sort of air cast. It seems out of sorts if it's the only ability without one.
-What does tornado really gain from the air cast? Why not have that for the ground cast. What if the air cast was zephyr actually rides  the top of a larger tornado shorter duration tornado. Enemies sucked up are stuck indefinitely. Zephyr is ejected once it ends. Bullet jump lets her leave early. But lets leave that alone. My point is the tornadoes still seem to have a randomized nature to them along with problems with 

While I do like the alot of the passive idea (really do), I feel like you're still leaving zephyr at 1.0 with every other ability. Tornado especially. Zephyr 2.0 should definitely have some distinction. Something new to her. Maybe the idea of a micro-burst or storm element.