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Skill is not crowd control


(PSN)WINDMILEYNO
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I see people using the terms "skill" and "crowd control" simultaneously, and it is getting to me, so i will make an unnecessary post about it.

Remember melee blocking? How it was actually somewhat relevant, how people were worried it would be taken away or messed up with stamina being removed from warframes, how mods like auto parry were relevant and actually talked about in melee builds?

---> Now, sitting and watching your frame reflect bullets is cool, but not skill full really... But it is and was a clunky mechanic i wish could have been expanded on. As well as better ways to use melee combos, heavy attacks like in heavans sword or any number of games that do heavy and light attacks better than warframe, and simply faster holster speeds.

But nah, naramon and cc are good.

Remember when people complained about the bunny hop animation, because wall running was something people actually did every now and then, and how running up a wall, back flipping smoothly, then running up the other side to cling to a ledge of an opening felt so rewarding. How wall latching was an interesting new mechanic that was supposed to turn us into awesome ninjas....tombs of the sentient trailers was all lies, parkour 1.0 was closer to it than parkour 2.0, which is a step in the opposite direction.

---> now im not mad with the addition of bullet jumps ans double jumps, and struggled for a long time to master running and back flipping up walls. I wish the game would have expanded on what we could do, walll lacthing on ceilings, or just straight up being spider man. A warframe with no melee equipped should be able to spar (we have already been down this road), and jumping on enemies heads was a cool thing i believed would happen back when DE Scott first revealed it, back when i watched devstreams.

 But NAH, who needs to jump at all when you can naramon and cc.

Remember when melee combos were introduced, and people were making posts about them being sluggish, or bad, and nothing was ever really done about it, but it was a topic discussed on the forums because people had various melee classes they enjoyed, but then naramon was released, and now all you have to do is swing a galatine through a crowd for 2 hours while enemies who still have no counter to invisibility (such as noticing someone next to them is dead) do nothing but stand still. This long run on sentence is like an example of a player in an endless mission swinging that galanting, never ending.

---> you know, there was once a time where i thought there would be a possibility of warframe not only implementing better combos for melee classes that were lacking them (machetes) but also a better implementation of the system itself, maybe even something horrible to pc players like combos from mortal kombat.

BUT NAH! Naramon and cc are good.

Remember how reviving someone actually meant something? How, without question, a complete stranger would rush in 10 seconds flat from across the map to save you? How it felt to be the one rushing? How heart wrenching, or embarrasing it was when you couldnt save your irl friend, because that was one of the 4 lives they had for that entire day? How you new the good people from the bad based on who actually tried to help?

--->now im glad 4 revives a day isnt a thing anymore, means i can blow myself up with a penta solo and have no major consequence. Also makes solo playing a thing that can be done now without much risk. Etc. But i was kind of hoping DE would be encouraged to fix enemy scaling, and enemy behavior as well. Was kind of hoping we could get to a point where we no longer lost all resources for failing a mission. Was kind of hoping sentinels would no longer have only one revive, as they do not add that much to a mission, nor will they survive past a certain point.

I mean, with more lives, that just means enemy scaling isnt such a problem when players die, and if they do die, they werent using enough crowd control, or naramon....but...NAH, naramon and cc is all we need.

.... To amend one thing though, many things have changed with enemies. Bursas arent as ridiculous as they used to be, seems fewer techs spawn, fewer napalms and bombards seem to spawn in todays warframe, and less tomfoolery. But this game used to be bad. Maybe though....it could just be my imagination because every thing is crowd controlled and you no longer really have to care ablut what spawns besides a nullifier?

TL;DR: Salt was caused by the now long standing belief that negating game mechanics, namely enemy scaling, with game mechanics such as naromon (invisibility), which enemies have no counter to, and crowd control, which enemies have no counter to (short of nullifiers and energy restrictions) or AKA cheese, is tantamount to skill.

Also, the game could do better skill wise than just naramon and cc.

Edited by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
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im feeling the salt but ya thats todays players for you. I think some of the biggest complains I hear (and a few i heard out of some big 'important' people) is "nullifiers were a mistake" and "enemies having knockdown is bs"...basically anything taht prevents ability use or anyone using the ONLY form of effective CC the enemies have...are "bs"

Players now days just want things easy. and half of them see no issue with it because "this is a PVE game"...these people (or at least there attitude) is the same as people who TGM or turn on inf ammo in games...cuz its singleplayer so why should they care.

...there I added in my rant to join in...cuz i agree with the overarching issue...(and this is without touching issues like the fact that blood rush gives WAY to much crit chance. because the mod alone wouldnt have been an issue...if blood rush,and drifting contact afterwords...wernt an issue)...

TLDR...the easier and more mindnumbing the gameplay is (less skill required) the 'more fun' it is apparently.

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12 minutes ago, Ordosan said:

im feeling the salt but ya thats todays players for you. I think some of the biggest complains I hear (and a few i heard out of some big 'important' people) is "nullifiers were a mistake" and "enemies having knockdown is bs"...basically anything taht prevents ability use or anyone using the ONLY form of effective CC the enemies have...are "bs"

Players now days just want things easy. and half of them see no issue with it because "this is a PVE game"...these people (or at least there attitude) is the same as people who TGM or turn on inf ammo in games...cuz its singleplayer so why should they care.

...there I added in my rant to join in...cuz i agree with the overarching issue...(and this is without touching issues like the fact that blood rush gives WAY to much crit chance. because the mod alone wouldnt have been an issue...if blood rush,and drifting contact afterwords...wernt an issue)...

TLDR...the easier and more mindnumbing the gameplay is (less skill required) the 'more fun' it is apparently.

And i would understand that if the people who enjoy using crowd control didnt make it seem like people who didnt use it werent skillful enough to play.

Oohhh, salt. You should have seen the bursa thread when they were nerfed months ago. That was salt. Actually now all of my posts sound like this...they did this to me.

 

Edited by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
The people arguing against the nerf were trying to justify the machines prior opness with the argument "they could just be cc'ed"
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12 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

There is no skill in warframe aside from a few things. People using the term skill usually have no idea what that means.

I wish this statement was true but flipped.

The world would be so much better if we could say "many things in waframe require skill and people who use the word in reference to this game now what their talking about".

10/10. Sure would be nice

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wwwwwww

I have been waiting for quite a while to drop this dank meme on an appropriate thread lol.

 

Warframe puts unlockable cheats in a plain sight and calls them contents. Many people like trivialized gameplay though, things that differentiate Warframe from incremental tapping mobile games are getting fewer and fewer. 

Edited by Volinus7
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8 minutes ago, (PS4)fullblast35 said:

Skills are the ability to maneuver a frame and take advantage of all its aspect at the maximum.  CC is just one skill among many. 

Better yet. Lets give an example of why its not.

Lets say im in a bar fright with a group of people. Normal crowd control would be the equivalent of me turning off the lights and putting on night vision goggles. Its not a fair fight, but people can still hit me and its up to my own skill to fight them. We dont have normal crowd control. Old Prism/Discharge/Molecular prime, bastille level crowd crontrol is the equivalent of me challenging a bunch of blind people to a bar fight. And naramon is the equivalent of me still turning off the lights and using googles

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The OP has me a little confused. A TL;DR would be nice.

If I'm reading this correctly, is OP salty because Naramon's Shadow Step is the top-tier late-game mechanic and nothing beats it? Or maybe because CC isn't required to beat anything in the game? Or because skill isn't required to beat anything in the game? It's a little unclear.

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10 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The OP has me a little confused. A TL;DR would be nice.

If I'm reading this correctly, is OP salty because Naramon's Shadow Step is the top-tier late-game mechanic and nothing beats it? Or maybe because CC isn't required to beat anything in the game? Or because skill isn't required to beat anything in the game? It's a little unclear.

I will add one. 

Salt was caused by the now long standing belief that negating game mechanics, namely enemy scaling, with game mechanics such as naromon (invisibility), which enemies have no counter to, and crowd control, which enemies have no counter to (short of nullifiers and energy restrictions) or AKA cheese, is tantamount to skill.

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I found this midly entertaining...also...adds a question i had...

mmmm

You might want to find eng subbed version...

 

Stealth...

I kinda like HotS AIs they often pretend that they can't see invisible players and give jump scare once in awhile lol. Warframe AIs usually turn into vegetables:facepalm:.

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11 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

You might want to find eng subbed version...

 

Stealth...

I kinda like HotS AIs they often pretend that they can't see invisible players and give jump scare once in awhile lol. Warframe AIs usually turn into vegetables:facepalm:.

I mean, there was a time i used to make fun of destiny because i thought warframe was better but now....

 

 

Edited by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
I have an anime thread in off topic, drop the name there
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2 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

There is no skill in warframe aside from a few things. People using the term skill usually have no idea what that means.

Immediately as i read this, i remebered all the people who always come up to vacuum posts and act like running into resources are a matter of skill.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I mean, there was a time i used to make fun of destiny because i thought warframe was better but now....

 

 

Lesson #1 Good parts of the game can be held as hostages for ignorance or simply other bad designs that don't respect players.

Lesson #2 Pay to play games have less excuses. Games that tie all monetization to cosmetics only also have less excuses.

 

 

Touhou is a game series btw. 

Edited by Volinus7
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28 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Immediately as i read this, i remebered all the people who always come up to vacuum posts and act like running into resources are a matter of skill.

The skill is not running into resources, is the decision making that you have to do when you  want to pick up an item that is surrounded by enemies, if you use vacuum you run less risks, since items come to you from several meters, you don´t risk crossing a corridor or entering into a room full of enemies. Resources are also color coded, so unless you´re farming for everything you only need to check for blue or yellow  resources and the color of  your ammo, so having vacuum also makes you pay less attention to the game, so you end up being less observant of the game and taking less risks, meaning less skill and less engagement, then you´re free to spam cc without repercutions going into high level enemy areas that otherwise would give you more trouble. 

And then players complain that they have much skill  and the game is very easy, then turns into the game is for casuals, without difficulty, you never die, there is no risk of losing, and then Warframe gets a bad reputation for being a casual farming horde shooter boring game that is not worth your time. 

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1 minute ago, Pavelord said:

The skill is not running into resources, is the decision making that you have to do when you  want to pick up an item that is surrounded by enemies, if you use vacuum you run less risks, since items come to you from several meters, you don´t risk crossing a corridor or entering into a room full of enemies. Resources are also color coded, so unless you´re farming for everything you only need to check for blue or yellow  resources and the color of  your ammo, so having vacuum also makes you pay less attention to the game, so you end up being less observant of the game and taking less risks, meaning less skill and less engagement, then you´re free to spam cc without repercutions going into high level enemy areas that otherwise would give you more trouble. 

And then players complain that they have much skill  and the game is very easy, then turns into the game is for casuals, without difficulty, you never die, there is no risk of losing, and then Warframe gets a bad reputation for being a casual farming horde shooter boring game that is not worth your time. 

Really? Now we consider common sense as skill? 

Sure a sane person would just run into a crowd of sortie level corpus techs if they dont have vacuum. I mean who else doesnt love when these guys shred you into tiny meat dumplings.

Casting hard CC on them to get the said resource is not skill either, but if we would have movement and evansion controls what lets us dash through thrm evading all bullets thanks to precise timing then i would call it skill, but otherwise its just a simple decision making what only needs some common sense.

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All I know is this....

In the past, meaning, years ago, I used to constantly log into the game and stayed in the game for hours because it was fun and challenging.

Now, i struggle to find a reason to log in and stay in the game more than 5 to 10 seconds.

Warframe is not at all what it used to be, and much of it now seems to be an extreme dumb-down.

Edited by VampirePirate
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8 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Really? Now we consider common sense as skill? 

Sure a sane person would just run into a crowd of sortie level corpus techs if they dont have vacuum. I mean who else doesnt love when these guys shred you into tiny meat dumplings.

Casting hard CC on them to get the said resource is not skill either, but if we would have movement and evansion controls what lets us dash through thrm evading all bullets thanks to precise timing then i would call it skill, but otherwise its just a simple decision making what only needs some common sense.

yes, common sense is a skill, it is something you´re not born with and you developed it through practice and experience, and yes I have seen people run into danger and get shred into tiny meat dumplings, is not rare for players to chew more than they could.

In very extreme examples you would need to parkour correctly while avoiding fire and grapples, guarding with melee if necessary, especially at low health,  not every case is a use of skill but it is not alwasy something you can do mindlessly, while using vaccum you don´t need to take the risk nor even consider it.

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22 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

The skill is not running into resources, is the decision making that you have to do when you  want to pick up an item that is surrounded by enemies, if you use vacuum you run less risks, since items come to you from several meters, you don´t risk crossing a corridor or entering into a room full of enemies. Resources are also color coded, so unless you´re farming for everything you only need to check for blue or yellow  resources and the color of  your ammo, so having vacuum also makes you pay less attention to the game, so you end up being less observant of the game and taking less risks, meaning less skill and less engagement, then you´re free to spam cc without repercutions going into high level enemy areas that otherwise would give you more trouble. 

And then players complain that they have much skill  and the game is very easy, then turns into the game is for casuals, without difficulty, you never die, there is no risk of losing, and then Warframe gets a bad reputation for being a casual farming horde shooter boring game that is not worth your time. 

What Fallen said.

also...

With the massive 4 year long compounding of sloppy design and increasing power creep continually denying any possibility of Warframe being anything more than a god mode horde crusher... you're gonna make loot collection your 'bastion of skill'?

Man I really wish DE would just get over themselves and split loot from gameplay items. Loot gets absorbed at 10m as a base game mechanic. Sentinels keep the vacuum mod for those that want to avoid scouring the floor for gameplay items

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1 hour ago, Jakorak said:

With the massive 4 year long compounding of sloppy design and increasing power creep continually denying any possibility of Warframe being anything more than a god mode horde crusher... you're gonna make loot collection your 'bastion of skill'?

nah, I´m not that passionate about loot collecting, after a couple years you practically don´t need to do it, I guess is just my salty thorn, one of those little things that eventually pile up against the game.

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every game have some meta who is most effective and ppl use that to gain as much as they can in short time...they will hit hard burnout like i did.. u farm farm.. and then u cant touch game for long.. its best to just play.. constant farming burnout anyone sooner or later

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The problem starts with enemy accuracy and its scaling.  At around level  50 enemies start getting pretty accurate and at level 80 they are aim bots.  At level 100 they scene to peacemaker level of accuracy and even parkour won't save you.

DE took away all element of skill with enemies having aimbot THAT is the first design flaw.  What recourse is there to that?  Cheese,  human beings cannot compete with aimbots,  the only solution is stop them from shooting either via cc or by r remaining invisible.

I would start by limiting enemy accuracy scaling to try and resolve this problem.

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CC is not inherently skill-less. There are quite a few CC abilities that take not necessarily mechanical skill, but they take skill in knowing when/where to use them. Magnetize IMO does have somewhat of a skill gap because knowing where to use it and how to make the most of it does take game knowledge and situational awareness (both of which are skills). Even Booben has this to an extent because most of his abilities are short duration and range (of course you can cheese your build but at base he is well balanced IMO). 

However, pretty much any mass area CC like chaos, stomp, etcetera are "skill-less". 

 

People who think Warframe has no skill are just too arrogant to think that there is any form of skill that is not mechanical aim. Yes, you can do a lot of things in Warframe without "skill", but then there are builds like Savage Banshee that have absurd skill ceilings. Not everyone takes the easy path, some people like to challenge themselves by not necessarily gimping themselves. 

 

Naramon on the other hand... 

Yeah, I agree. I am honestly okay with infinite invisibility if it took more effort than just playing melee like you normally would. 

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