Ash still needs work

[Hypernaut1]

40 minutes ago, ShadowStalker said:

1-Ash is not in a good spot what are you talking about

2-just because hydroid  weak compared to ash dosent mean ash is in a good spot or that he dosent need a rework or its ok to have bad frames plus he will get his rework anyway before his prime access comes out you can technically call ash augment frame aswell since currently the best builds for him require two augments that is seeking shuriken or fatal teleport 

Good spot meaning that he can be taken into any mission and not have any trouble killing or surviving using all of his abilities. 

BS is still a highly effective ability. His 1 is the only ability that's lackluster in higher levels, and even that becomes a good skill with an augment when playing against grineer.

If you can't kill with Ash, have trouble surviving or completing objectives, then you just don't know how to play him.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

53 minutes ago, ShadowStalker said:

All his abilities have problems but people still stay stuff like "Ash is fine" "Ash is perfect" like why lie to your self and others

It's hard believing that he sucks when I can breeze through lvl 100+ content with him, but your entitled to your own opinion.

[ShadowStalker]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

It's hard believing that he sucks when I can breeze through lvl 100+ content with him, but your entitled to your own opinion.

i never said he sucked 

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The cost of his 4 is appropriate without efficiency. With 170% efficiency, i have no issue at all keeping his 4 toggled on and marking as i go. Ash does not have energy issues.

sigh 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

His job is to take out high priority targets.

What is a "high priority target"? How is that Ash's job to take it out!? Lol because no other WF can do that effectively..right?! 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

What is a "high priority target"? How is that Ash's job to take it out!? Lol because no other WF can do that effectively..right?! 

Targets with high armor, health pools. Simple concept really.

That's his role. He has high damage abilities at the cost of being able to nuke entire rooms. If you can't do that, then you're simply not good with him.

With BS here can kill high level enemies and return to a safe spot.

I have no issues with energy and I use BS often. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I have no issues with energy and I use BS often. 

Ikr, if oberans and saryn players can find a way to deal with their frames energy hungry playstyles then how is it hard for people deal with bladestorm's energy costs. We have so many ways to gain energy that it's your fault if you don't have any energy. Hell, ash can still gain energy from orbs,EV Trinity, zenurik and energy pads while marking and casting bladestorm so half the time the energy I spent was gained back after a couple of seconds.

 

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

What is a "high priority target"? How is that Ash's job to take it out!? Lol because no other WF can do that effectively..right?! 

This alone tells me you never faced lvl 150+ napalms/bombards or anything near that before. 

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Your math is bunk.

Prove it

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I, and many other Ash players use 4 without problem. Most frames without efficiency can only cast their 4 1x before running low on energy.

True, but what they can do, is get the job done. For 100 energy they can actually do a big damage or even wipe whole armies. Ash can, with 100 energy, kill (or just wound) at best 6 enemies ( 1 mark) or 2 (3 marks)

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

BS is a very strong ability, its not made to nuke entire rooms of low level trash mobs. He's an assassin now. His job is to take out high priority targets, not compete for top kills of trash like an Ember. When the going gets tough, Ash will be one of the last frames still dealing damage and killing enemies with ease.

We had that before, and it was much better. Ash was always an assassin, he had Shuriken and Teleport for that. BS was always the "Ash get's fed up with enemy troops and wipes the whole platoon" power. Now it overlaps with Teleport and does much worse, because Teleport at least can kill in a single attack.

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The cost of his 4 is appropriate without efficiency.

Draining twice more energy than the frame has capacity for with primed flow? You are either insane, are playing a completely different game, or you are another max efficiency moron.

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

With 170% efficiency, i have no issue at all keeping his 4 toggled on and marking as i go. Ash does not have energy issues.

Oh wait, yeah, you are.

 

9 hours ago, Gravitus123 said:

Honestly the only real change Ash needs is his Bladestorm which is clunky,slow and pretty much worthless.The rest of his abilities are good and they have some great augments too

Indeed. The ability needs to be remade, and for real this time. Some synergy with his other abilities to make them more powerful/useful would be nice, hence why the path of less resistance is Ash's Super Mode.

[Nazrethim]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Good spot meaning that he can be taken into any mission and not have any trouble killing or surviving using all of his abilities. 

BS is still a highly effective ability. His 1 is the only ability that's lackluster in higher levels, and even that becomes a good skill with an augment when playing against grineer.

If you can't kill with Ash, have trouble surviving or completing objectives, then you just don't know how to play him.

 

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

It's hard believing that he sucks when I can breeze through lvl 100+ content with him, but your entitled to your own opinion.

"Playable" doesn't mean "Good"

And I can breeze those missions too, so long as I NEVER use energy-sink failstorm. Instead using Teleport to take high priority targets and Smoke Screen+Melee to wipe crowds. Blade Storm simply is obsolete and needs to be remade.

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Targets with high armor, health pools. Simple concept really.

You mean targets made for Teleport? Because that's what Teleport is for

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's his role. He has high damage abilities at the cost of being able to nuke entire rooms.

And the cost being twice his energy capacity, meaning that, in a game about customization, you are forced into picking 2 slot mods just to make the ability remotedly useful, otherwise is a pointless camera-vomit energy sink that is outclassed by Ash's other abilities, and any other nuke ability in the game (sans the weakest ones) for that matter.

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you can't do that, then you're simply not good with him.

Oooh... staring in the general direction of enemies and then watching the game play itself. So much skill there.

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

With BS here can kill high level enemies and return to a safe spot.

I have no issues with energy and I use BS often. 

You need to take out the broken efficiency first son. THEN you will understand the meaning of "balance".

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

This alone tells me you never faced lvl 150+ napalms/bombards or anything near that before. 

And yet Teleport can kill them ina  single stroke for 30 energy (15 if you use Fatal Teleport, which uses 1 mod slot) while BS takes 45 energy (because there is no Fking way it's gonna oneshot one of those) unless you use 2 mod slots for max efficiency+zenurik.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Prove it

True, but what they can do, is get the job done. For 100 energy they can actually do a big damage or even wipe whole armies. Ash can, with 100 energy, kill (or just wound) at best 6 enemies ( 1 mark) or 2 (3 marks)

We had that before, and it was much better. Ash was always an assassin, he had Shuriken and Teleport for that. BS was always the "Ash get's fed up with enemy troops and wipes the whole platoon" power. Now it overlaps with Teleport and does much worse, because Teleport at least can kill in a single attack.

Draining twice more energy than the frame has capacity for with primed flow? You are either insane, are playing a completely different game, or you are another max efficiency moron.

Oh wait, yeah, you are.

 

Indeed. The ability needs to be remade, and for real this time. Some synergy with his other abilities to make them more powerful/useful would be nice, hence why the path of less resistance is Ash's Super Mode.

If you're going to cry about efficiency, then you need to mod for it. That's what it's there for. There is absolutely no reason why you can't. I even use 2 augments on my Ash with no problem. You just don't know how to play and your ideas reflect that and over exaggerated whining show that.

I'm not even going to start calling you names. You resort to calling people that disagree a moron because your argument holds no water when there are many players that do great with Ash. 

And no, there are not a ton of frames that easily nuke a high level map with their 4. Now you're just getting ridiculous.

Your stance idea is horrible and lacks creativity. It's a good thing DE doesn't take lame fan-fiction reworks seriously. You seriously go on and on about special combos and finisher moves in "your rework" as if you already have it programmed and awaiting Steve's approval. It's almost hilarious how serious you take it 

Sure, Ash isn't perfect. I wish there was a way to minimize the wiggling I have to do sometimes. I wish there was a way to insta 3x mark a target. I wish that enemies wouldn't be able to target him the moment he finishes BS. I wish SS duration would pause during BS. I would like it if shuriken had some synergy with marking... But these are tweaks and reasonable request. I'm not going off the cuckoo deep end, claiming that's he's a failstorm and useless. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

This alone tells me you never faced lvl 150+ napalms/bombards or anything near that before. 

1.Hahahahahah I'm a Mesa main...what 150+s? 

2. Because 150s are so common.

3. Ash used to be in my line up for spys and rescues and exterminations...no longer. Spaming 2, hoping I marked everyone for BS, can only use certain energy colors or u can't see your death marks, 1 is completely unpredictable, mandatory max efficiency, the lag between BSs, did I mention spamming 2 and I can keep going..sigh..Loki just does everything Ash does..better. 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

there are not a ton of frames that easily nuke a high level map

Wrong..want a list?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Your stance idea is horrible and lacks creativity.

reading comprehension must be rough for you. His idea actually makes sense, but your to busy worshipping DE and their decisions to actually have a unbiased opinion of your own. If DE were to use @Nazrethim 're work instead of the trash we have now you'd be right there on the bandwagon expressing your love for the rework. Lol 

Edited June 20, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

he's pointless. 

Fixed it for you.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you're going to cry about efficiency, then you need to mod for it. That's what it's there for. There is absolutely no reason why you can't. I even use 2 augments on my Ash with no problem. You just don't know how to play and your ideas reflect that and over exaggerated whining show that.

One of the cornerstones of the frikin game is "customization". Previously, you were allowed to not use Efficiency and BS would still be good because it had a reasonable cost. Hell, you could even add Blind Rage to increase damage and keep a reasonable cost. Not anymore, unless you are Max Efficiency BS is an energy sink.

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I'm not even going to start calling you names. You resort to calling people that disagree a moron because your argument holds no water when there are many players that do great with Ash. 

Well, when you give mathematical proof and some people STILL claim you are exagerating, then the reasons are : they are in denial, they are morons or they are against Ash getting any good positive change.

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Your stance idea is horrible and lacks creativity.

At least I try to improve the frame, not build for a broken stat that makes every frame a super weapon by sheer powerspam and claim "it's good".

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It's a good thing DE doesn't take lame fan-fiction reworks seriously.

Well, FYI, the individual marking sh*t we have now was player suggested after DE mentioned they were planning on World on Bladestorm, which everyone with a minimum common sense said was a dumb idea, so they went for the second dumbest idea despite nearly a year of feedback pointing out it was going to be bad. The problem isn't DE taking ideas suggested by players, in Ash's case, they just picked the second worst one.

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You seriously go on and on about special combos and finisher moves in "your rework" as if you already have it programmed and awaiting Steve's approval. It's almost hilarious how serious you take it 

Nothing to see here.

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Sure, Ash isn't perfect. I wish there was a way to minimize the wiggling I have to do sometimes. I wish there was a way to insta 3x mark a target. I wish that enemies wouldn't be able to target him the moment he finishes BS. I wish SS duration would pause during BS. I would like it if shuriken had some synergy with marking... But these are tweaks and reasonable request. I'm not going off the cuckoo deep end, claiming that's he's a failstorm and useless. 

I never claimed he was failstorm and useless. Well, Failstorm is due to it's stupid cost. And Ash's abilities ARE useless in Conclave (by comparison to everyone else, of course)

Edited June 20, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 6/17/2017 at 2:34 AM, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Ash is fine, 

 

You misspelled useless...

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:32 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Ash is fine. Most of your ideas are terrible and would probably ruin Ash further by turning him into an Excalibur clone. Its not the devs fault you arent effective with him. I can take Ash into all content and do exceptionally well with him. I dont see what the problem is. Just because he doesnt match the  fantasy rework you daydream about in your head doesnt mean hes a bad frame.

Some of you are asking for an unreasonable amount of changes, practically asking for a new frame. Its unnecessary. 

 

You must be taking your Ash out solo to do exceptionally well because in a PuG, I'd own your Ash with a variety of frames in literally all game modes....

It is certainly not unreasonable to ask for changes to his entire kit if you compare this to a Nidus or an Octavia or Ember or Loki or Frost etc etc. It's not like DE doesn't know how to make proper frames with abilities that sync and provide team benefit right ? 

What is unreasonable is people defending this 'revisit' which is best described as an insult to Ash mainers.  

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 6/20/2017 at 1:11 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Sure, Ash isn't perfect. I wish there was a way to minimize the wiggling I have to do sometimes. I wish there was a way to insta 3x mark a target. I wish that enemies wouldn't be able to target him the moment he finishes BS. I wish SS duration would pause during BS. I would like it if shuriken had some synergy with marking... But these are tweaks and reasonable request. I'm not going off the cuckoo deep end, claiming that's he's a failstorm and useless. 

 

In the previous post I made, I quoted you saying Ash was fine. So which one is it going to be buddy?

Edited June 21, 2017 by (PS4)vrykolacas82
typo

[P0Pz]

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 0:02 AM, AKKILLA said:

ASH IS TRASH!!!

Ever heard the term?

Well its practically true. Sure Ash deals good damage, he has high survivability with a high health pool which in reality makes no sense in My history of playing Assassins in any online games (Mobas Mainly) 

Me too Moba + Moo's.

Did ya find any evasion or doublehit chances or every proc procing stagger (mini stuns) enemies for 1sec? I still search it until today..real Sin stuff...

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Ashs kit is off, I will explain each ability in detail.

Shuriken, deals low damage in end game and only strips armor, and casts only 3 shurikens that fly off sometimes.

Why not add a barrage of small shurikens that stun enemies,  and a charged shuriken that deals more damage.

I actualy like that idea. ✔

In a cone to front or arround him?

As a Sin, using Shuriken, shouldn't he shortly disapear in a cloud 1sec, to throw out his Shuriken's and then directly popup again?

Isnt't a shuriken very sharp hard impacting atk-tool? Shouldn't it proc slash to? Shouldn't Ash's Slash hits work differently to the standart? (After each slash proc, target(s) get 1sec staggered)

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Smoke Screen, cloaks you for a short period of time and staggers enemies for 1 second.

Jup ✔

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why not cast an AoE in the are that stuns enemies in side opening them to finisher kills, keep same duration mechanics in and out of smoke screen

✔ Jep. Add a function a player can trigger while standing in his cloud. Like standing inside the cloud and jump-bash the ground, will release 4 ash clones, dashing out of his cloud, 8m forward, in all 4 wind directions, damaging and procing Ash's slash procs.

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Teleport instantly moves you in front of enemies stunning them for finisher kills

✔ also here, teleport will create a 2-3sec duration cloud with the same possible Ash interaction with his cloud as above suggested.

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The animtion is off and the stun sometimes doesnt function, add a small smoke cloud wherever he lands that stuns enemies

✔ couldn't say it better. Additionaly, leaving any of his clouds range, gives him for 3sec 75% evasion but every second less (75/55/25% evasion).

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Blade Storm, ash goes on a rampage killing enemies with clones dealing slash/finisher damage

Why not rework into a Stance, this provides interactivity, synergy between abilities and fixes the camera and lots of other bugs BS has had for Years.

You say it shouldnt be a Stance? I say it should and have good reason to prove my statement, Ash being a Melee frame, and BS being a Melee ability with innate melee weapons makes this concept viable and makes sense. There is no way a Stance ultimate for Ashs BS a bad idea nor will it make him unengaging and less interactive in fact this is exactly what Ash needed all along

How does it work? Press 4 and Ash summons clones while unsheathing his Katars, every attack will summon an AoE of shadow Clones dealing Slash bleed procs, any kills in stealth of finisher kills to enemies in teleport or in Smoke Screen will be a Multifinisher kill Ash and his 2 clones will   do the same animation and deal Finisher damage to the enemies within his range. The Multi Finisher kill will only occur if there are 3 enemies within (X) amount of meters

 

For the stance..i dunno. 

For the clone finishers radius/AoE ✔

Add to the clones a double hit chance. (25% chance that a hit will count double, if the double hit triggers a crit, the dmg of both hits is applyed seperatly but both with the crit multi.

-----------------

Good ideas buddy 🖒

Edit:  maybe let Ash's Slash procs do, according to his currently energy colore, elemental effects.

Red'ish - knock back/down (CC)

Green'ish - Poisening (DoT)

Blue'ish - Electricy (stagger)

Yellow'ish - double each proc ticks dmg (Damage) ...no better idea atm...

Edited June 21, 2017 by P0Pz

[Nazrethim]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

You misspelled useless...

Well, not exactly useless. Only full of easily solvable issues (that DE didn't bother to adress despite them being pointed out since day 1, nine months before the rework) and a completely redundant and energy sink ultimate (which DE refused to rework despite actually being a way to keep the animation they like so much and still make an interactive ultimate).

His abilities are useless in Conclave though, outside of VERY super specific conditions... and even then they are easily countered by a player who can press click or push E or move a few steps in any direction.

50 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

 

You must be taking your Ash out solo to do exceptionally well because in a PuG, I'd own your Ash with a variety of frames in literally all game modes....

It is certainly not unreasonable to ask for changes to his entire kit if you compare this to a Nidus or an Octavia or Ember or Loki or Frost etc etc. It's not like DE doesn't know how to make proper frames with abilities that sync and provide team benefit right ? 

What is unreasonable is people defending this 'revisit' which is best described as an insult to Ash mainers.  

And more insultingly: Nidus came shortly after Ash's Nerfvisit, which meant DE could have done something better for him. And then followed Limbo's rework which is great and they did in about 3 months, unlike Ash's 9 months waiting time that ended with dissapointment worse than Baro's wares.

 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

 

In the previous post I made, I quoted you saying Ash was fine. So which one is it going to be buddy?

Notice he doesn't have any logical argument to counter ours. When he said my math was "bunk" I challenged him to prove it. He didn't because my math is solid and can't be denied.

[Nazrethim]

7 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

In a cone to front or arround him?

Ah good ol' rework ideas that don't go into mechanical details. Why is it so hard to think about it in a realistic gameplay form?

7 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

As a Sin, using Shuriken, shouldn't he shortly disapear in a cloud 1sec, to throw out his Shuriken's and then directly popup again?

That could be nice.

7 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

Isnt't a shuriken very sharp hard impacting atk-tool? Shouldn't it proc slash to? Shouldn't Ash's Slash hits work differently to the standart? (After each slash proc, target(s) get 1sec staggered)

There are different types of Shuriken. Though unless he gets a dual shuriken ability or a Quiver-esque 1st with different Shurikens it's unlikely we're gonna see them.

7 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

For the stance..i dunno. 

Well, the thing is that a Stance Ultimate is the path of least resistance to actually solve the issues without going back to Press 4 to Win. And most opposition comes from people who are either happy AFKing and not having to put any effort (since current BS has way more cutscene time than old) or people who think it's gonna be an Excalibur clone, which is bull because most BladeStorm Stance rework ideas stray far away from Excalibur's mindless Exalted Spam.

[ShadowStalker]

If they wont rework bladestorm they should at least give him another bladestorm augment 

Edit>NVM i dont see my self using 3 augments on one frame 

Edited June 21, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

34 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Notice he doesn't have any logical argument to counter ours. When he said my math was "bunk" I challenged him to prove it. He didn't because my math is solid and can't be denied.

It is also not the first time I call him on something and he conveniently elects to ignore the comment. He does so in other threads as well. Seems like this guy has a lot of weak arguments in his arsenal. He uses a lot of: 'What you say isn't correct because with me its no problem' In fact he seems to be defending the Ash revisit so much with precious little factual data that I'm starting to take him for a troll.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 6/19/2017 at 3:23 PM, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

It's hard believing that he sucks when I can breeze through lvl 100+ content with him, but your entitled to your own opinion.

It's hard believing you consider the lvl 100+ content a good baseline for Ash not to suck. On lvl 100+ only fatal teleport gets you reliable and reasonably efficient kills and under lvl 100 a load of frames kill faster and get CC and team buff to boot.

Ash's abilities bring nothing to the group at lvl 100+ or before that.......

He is a killframe inefficient in killing. His ultimate's energy consumption is astronomical while being so slow that fatal teleport is just that much better to use. (That's an augment by the way and not a standard ability like it should have been in the first place)

Edited June 21, 2017 by (PS4)vrykolacas82