Balanced movement?

[Loxyen]

How come that we can go down to 0.4 mobility and easily tank sniper headshots, but going up to 1.6/1.5 is just a fragment of memory, is just a dream?

Since sprinting and sliding got re-adjusted back then, mobility is pretty much the only movement indicator worth to consider and created the gap between aerial moves > grounded moves. And since that I can see everyone most of the players rather getting drawn into the 'tank meta' (yes this term is growing more and more within the current state of Conclave), than dare to try some fast paced plays.

The cause is probably that you can cancel the bullet jump animation which makes even tanks/tankier Warframes bouncing balls, while high mobility play is quite unrewarding compared to that. Sure you are fast and can cover a decent range with high mobility jumps, but since you are in the air for a long ranged jump you're an exposed squishy Aunt Sally. God beware if someone lines up. Additional to that a couple maps have really weird walls, leaving the ground to be most likely the only reliable and safe place to reset your bullet jump, making you easy to predict again (a player who built his loadout to be fast and unpredictable). Also rolls the 'last way out move' does cancel charges, prevent you from shooting back and is locking you into the entire animation.

What would you do about that? Better convert some of that mobility into tankiness to get that advantage on your hp bar, right?

But what if you play the game for its fast paced parkour movement and try to be more reactive on the opponents moves? With only accessible 1.2 mobility and toned down sprint/slide? Right, you gonna have a damn hard time and then quit or run the meta.

 

Or you'll make a post on the forum to hopefully reach the devs and those players who feel the same about it.

Therefore I have a couple questions:

-> I guess we won't go back to 1.5 anymore or anytime soon, but is constant accessible 1.4 or even 1.3 mobility to much to ask for? (Maybe lock it behind gold mods to not harm the RC pool.)

 

-> What about bringing back reliable sprint and slide?

          -> Is it possible to let mods like "Heastened Steps" have more impact on the game? Making them more common and maybe introduce new ones?

          ->Why is the only slide boosting mod we have an airborne one? (Yes a good sprint speed makes a good slide on the ground, but a good sprint speed does not exist in the current state of Conclave.)

 

-> Are there plans on polishing/changing maps? (Getting stuck on a couple places or not being able to wall run on some oblique walls is really annoying with the time.)

          -> Is it possible to give the community an option/tool to create their own maps?

 

-> Would you agree to give rolls more love? We have one mod to ignore a bit of dmg while sacrifising mobility, thats it.

          ->Is it possible to add mods that let you hold charges while rolling or even let you shoot, or reduce the animation time/increase the roll speed for a sacrifice?

 

Thats it so far. Are there examples you guys would add?

Edited June 18, 2017 by Loxyen

[Nazrethim]

Mobility actually affects Side Roll speed and distance. Allowing charge while rolling would give charged weapons an unfair advantage. You can get very good Sprint speed with Sword Alone, provided you are willing to sacrifice ranged weaponry.

Personally the only things I would like to see changed are Wall Attacks using bulletjump momentum instead of doing a slow as a snail locking animation hugging the wall, which is an annoying part of melee combat. Let the wall to wall meleeing be good.

About maps, there are plenty of "large rooms" on PvE tiles that would be suitable for Conclave as I posted on this (now archived) thread:

Spoiler

 

 

[Loxyen]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Mobility actually affects Side Roll speed and distance.

less mobility makes it shorter and slower while more mobility makes it cover more range and faster

Being able to alter that to a certain degree would be a nice gadget for personalization

 

7 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Allowing charge while rolling would give charged weapons an unfair advantage.

Thats why I added :

24 minutes ago, Loxyen said:

or even let you shoot

 

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

You can get very good Sprint speed with Sword Alone, provided you are willing to sacrifice ranged weaponry.

I am for more sprint speed, because you barely notice a diference between sprinting and jogging (even with heastened steps equipped). Compared to the alternatives of getting around the map it is clearly lagging behind and is not reliable. Especially not in combat.

Locking me behind melee-only to get that bit of extra sprint speed is a good way to make melee usable against ranged weapons, but is not within my intention for the conversation.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Loxyen said:

less mobility makes it shorter and slower while more mobility makes it cover more range and faster

Being able to alter that to a certain degree would be a nice gadget for personalization

 

Thats why I added :

What about melee? You can't really swing it while rolling. I think rolling taking priority and canceling everything else is fine as it is.

2 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Locking me behind melee-only to get that bit of extra sprint speed is a good way to make melee usable against ranged weapons, but is not within my intention for the conversation.

Well, it's a bit funny, what players requested for melee was "more mobility" in the "we can cancel combos via rolling, have better aerial and wall melee combat" sense. Instead we got +10 Mobility stat and 1.3 Sprint Speed. Awesome indeed, but DE seem to have gotten a bit confused there. xD

[Koldraxon-732]

I've got a few suggestions on my end, but it's up to you what to take from them. 
Honestly speaking, DE should bring up a multiple-choice (minimum of 3) vote about what to do with mobility and combat in Conclave, and they should reintroduce all the Conclave game subtypes (except the special events like the ones for Christmas and Valentine's), to give people something reasonably restricted regarding Conclave gameplay.

Regarding mobility (parkour, sprinting, and cancerous flying-sniper meta) from my perspective;

Spoiler

The only useful bit of mobility is the wall-hang if you have Loki, or bullet-jumping; the rest are rather useless outside of extremely well arranged circumstances which only occur with people who don't know how to parkour.

And yes, Sprinting is useless.
With this in mind, and what I've experienced was people with bows/snipers flying around getting oneshots on everyone with extreme levels of accuracy that shouldn't be feasible with those weapons while bullet-jumping. 

Now onto my proposal in this section:
 

Spoiler

 

Sprint speed should be able to cover the same range as your bullet jump within the same amount of time, but the change here is that turning while sprinting will be harder without the mods that used to affect sprint speed (which means sprint speed is universally same, regardless of what Warframe). This would enable melee-focused Tenno to give chase/close distance faster without risking being sniped due to cutscene(see most games, like WarCraft 3, when ingame cinematics play)-slow running speeds.
Some weapons, like shotguns, will cause sprinting to be a little slower.
 

Bullet jumping will no longer allow for primary weapons to be used, and the speed of the bullet jump will carry into melee swings (meaning they go as far as the Bo and Tripedo), but doing this will cause the bullet jump to begin to fade, unless you block into an aim-glide. There'll be a mod that enables a small number of primary archetypes (rifles, uniques, shotguns, semi-autos), but accuracy is reduced if you don't aim at the cost of bullet jumping taking longer to perform.
 

Rolling would occur much faster, and the 'air-roll' would use the bullet jump animation instead.

 

Due to the abrupt boost in mobility, the dreaded Stamina Bar will return to Conclave, which will limit how many bullet jumps and how long sprinting can be performed.

Given that, taking damage will cause you to slow down, but returning fire to the attacker will return the mobility faster.

Also, blocking with melee without channeling, even outside of Conclave, should block damage (in Conclave, your Stamina bar is like a secondary shield when blocking with melee; the bigger the opponent's weapon, the harder it will be to block).

 

I am in the belief that this (potential future), the first Conclave 2.0 settings, and the current, should all exist together as to provide different ways to play Conclave, and perhaps provide some sort of balance.

Alternatively, Kill-Death ratios in Conclave should be used to bias match searches.

 

 

[SevenLetterKWord]

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

The cause is probably that you can cancel the bullet jump animation which makes even tanks/tankier Warframes bouncing balls

Bouncing balls that "bounce" the incredible distance of five meters, sure.

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

high mobility play is quite unrewarding compared to that.

Alongside the elusive survivability that comes with good mobility, a fast build also makes it easy to access and control map resources.

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

Sure you are fast and can cover a decent range with high mobility jumps, but since you are in the air for a long ranged jump you're an exposed squishy Aunt Sally.

Mobility 2.0 provides a variety of options to retain mobility throughout a long jump.
If you over-invest in a jump and find yourself up in the air without a paddle, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

Additional to that a couple maps have really weird walls, leaving the ground to be most likely the only reliable and safe place to reset your bullet jump, making you easy to predict again (a player who built his loadout to be fast and unpredictable).

Knowledge of maps and terrain properties is an important facet of skilled gameplay.
That being said, there are some surfaces which - for some reason - defy parkour actions. _{The large mirrors on that one Orokin Moon tileset?}
It would be nice to have those addressed.

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

Also rolls the 'last way out move' does cancel charges, prevent you from shooting back and is locking you into the entire animation.

This applies to maybe 5% of weapons. Time your weapon charge around your roll, or make the choice between evasion and offense.

On 6/18/2017 at 11:30 AM, Loxyen said:

-> Are there plans on polishing/changing maps? (Getting stuck on a couple places or not being able to wall run on some oblique walls is really annoying with the time.)

An excellent point.
Almost every tileset has outcroppings or geometry aberrations that interfere with smooth mobility, and a few have unusual and unintuitive surfaces.

[JonBenj]

Get your K daily and you too will see improvements, suitable for Conclavers of all ages.

[Loxyen]

On 22.6.2017 at 9:53 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Bouncing balls that "bounce" the incredible distance of five meters, sure.

They bounce slow but still bounce/move and have a way higher shield/hp pool. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with that. More likely they would benefit from those suggestion too.

 

On 22.6.2017 at 9:53 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Alongside the elusive survivability that comes with good mobility, a fast build also makes it easy to access and control map resources.

I already mentioned that months ago. Conclave should not be balanced for pub brawls, but for 1v1s at the same skill ceiling and then polish around that framework. The map design is also not necessarily the best for a fast paced high mobility shooter. (doors and ping/consumable deployment/and those dozen of invisible edges)

The right positioning should make it possible to control the map for low mobility loadouts.

 

On 22.6.2017 at 9:53 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Mobility 2.0 provides a variety of options to retain mobility throughout a long jump.
If you over-invest in a jump and find yourself up in the air without a paddle, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

That is absolutely right while also itching controversy points.

 

On 22.6.2017 at 9:53 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Knowledge of maps and terrain properties is an important facet of skilled gameplay.
That being said, there are some surfaces which - for some reason - defy parkour actions. _{The large mirrors on that one Orokin Moon tileset?}
It would be nice to have those addressed.

What I mainly was talking about were those weird oblique walls you can find on the Grineer mud and under water map and some parts of the orokin/moon maps. If the flat surface points into the air at least you can stand and jump on them like being on the ground. But if they point to the ground you can't do anything with them. Only if they are at an certain angle or a clean vertical wall is adjacent. 

 

On 22.6.2017 at 9:53 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

This applies to maybe 5% of weapons. Time your weapon charge around your roll, or make the choice between evasion and offense.

I am already doing that 24/7 and would say being fine with that.

The intention I had was pointing out that it is a simple to execute one way move which is locking you into the animation (no combo to execute necessary, no paddle that can be wasted). Additionally when you roll midair for a direction change, that stops your momentum, the possibility for a following hard landing is high. You will drop like a stone and without any inherit momentum from previous actions you can't just slide to prevent the hard landing. The only remaining possibilties are a well timed jump (which is possible but pretty difficult to time) or another roll if you fall long enough to execute it. 

Other 'simple/single button' moves give more variety for less downsides.

 

[SevenLetterKWord]

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

I already mentioned that months ago. Conclave should not be balanced for pub brawls, but for 1v1s at the same skill ceiling and then polish around that framework.

Is that so?
Interesting news, considering that we have three multiplayer "brawl" modes and zero 1v1 "duel" modes.
Why would we neglect balance for three modes that exist in favor of one mode that doesn't exist?

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

The right positioning should make it possible to control the map for low mobility loadouts.

Resources are distributed throughout the map. Knowledge of spawn locations and times help, but a higher mobility build will always have the advantage.

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

You will drop like a stone and without any inherit momentum from previous actions you can't just slide to prevent the hard landing. The only remaining possibilties are a well timed jump (which is possible but pretty difficult to time) or another roll if you fall long enough to execute it.

What? The "only possibilities" are jumps or rolls?

I know you're not new to Conclave.
How did you manage to get this far without discovering that hard landings can be avoided with air melee, with ability casts, with something as simple as literally pressing one button and aim gliding?

Secondly, it's not even remotely difficult to time another jump to prevent a hard landing.
You don't have to jump the exact frame before you would land, you just have to jump anywhere in the air so that your next fall is below the hard landing threshold of approximately 14 meters.

[Loxyen]

On 25.6.2017 at 9:19 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Is that so?
Interesting news, considering that we have three multiplayer "brawl" modes and zero 1v1 "duel" modes.
Why would we neglect balance for three modes that exist in favor of one mode that doesn't exist?

Because the fundamental mechanics of those brawl modes (as they are atm) do not ensure fair circumstances (which I already mentioned) and there's still a lot that has to be done with our current modes to do so.

Despite that you probably caught the wrong idea of my sentence. To explain that a good example are the recent changes from U21:

So far the single handed Lex series used to be the more precise puncture equivalent to the marelok series. Which was more focused on impact and a bit more spammy. To make up for the slow fire rate and the dmg loss vs shields the Lex series had its x2 headshot multiplier. However now that the Lex series got buffed it is outperforming the Marelok series by far with that x2 multiplier.

While talking about Lex, similar stuff goes for the AKLex series now. I guess now after the dmg got nerfed an AKLato or AkMagnus would outperorm it with ease, because they're just more forgiving with those high fire rates.

What I meant was to test how weapon x is performing vs weapon y of the same weapon class under the same circumstances, balance this and then check how that weapon class is performing vs other classes and balance those again.

In addition to that it would be really helpful if the pvp DE team would communicate more with the community. To prevent stuff like the U21-shock and make sure what Conclave is facing in the near future. If possible an up to date rough plan for the following years would be great too.

The greatest and most basic reason why Conclave hasn't died yet is that there are people who enjoy the pvp side of Warframe and have fun playing it. It does not need a secret unannounced change which will throw all over again. It just need to stay fun and to ensure this communication between dev and dedicated community will help a lot.

 

On 25.6.2017 at 9:19 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Resources are distributed throughout the map. Knowledge of spawn locations and times help, but a higher mobility build will always have the advantage.

Heh..Is that so?

Why am I the only one around running loadouts with 1.2 mobility and heastened steps if its that much superior? 

The thing is that those orbs are just an optional overkill in our current all day Conclave routine. It would be great if no current leap wasn't a mod and active for everyone so that orbs gain more importance. The heal rate/scale of the health/shield regen mods on kill should be adjusted aswell then.

 

On 25.6.2017 at 9:19 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

What? The "only possibilities" are jumps or rolls?

I know you're not new to Conclave.
How did you manage to get this far without discovering that hard landings can be avoided with air melee, with ability casts, with something as simple as literally pressing one button and aim gliding?

Secondly, it's not even remotely difficult to time another jump to prevent a hard landing.
You don't have to jump the exact frame before you would land, you just have to jump anywhere in the air so that your next fall is below the hard landing threshold of approximately 14 meters.

Don't panic I am fully aware of those options and no they do not work in the exotic situation I described.

Where did you get that number from? 14 meters? Does that include horizontally movement too? Because what I am talking about is a full stop at idk ~2-5 meters height. Once rolling (backflip) you will loose height and just crush into the hard landing, because you'll stuck in the animation until you touch or almost touch the ground. If you're unlucky enough and do this a couple times under pressure you will see that you don't focus on the ground, because you're busy keeping opponents in sight, were already close to the ground and were not jumping that high anyway. Which makes timing the maybe securing jump pretty hard.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Loxyen

[SevenLetterKWord]

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Why am I the only one around running loadouts with 1.2 mobility and heastened steps if its that much superior?

Probably because good players are able to adequately secure map resources without needing 1.2 mobility plus Hastened Steps.

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

The thing is that those orbs are just an optional overkill in our current all day Conclave routine.

Yes, the passive energy economy is incredibly generous.
No, this does not mean that energy orbs are irrelevant.

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Don't panic I am fully aware of those options and no they do not work in the exotic situation I described.

You have many, many, many options to avoid hard landings.
If somehow you managed to conceive an "exotic situation" wherein all of your abundant and highly flexible mobility resources have been exhausted, then you are thinking too narrowly. A player with decent mobility would not allow himself to fall into such an "exotic situation" to begin with.

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Where did you get that number from? 14 meters?

A 14-meter free fall is approximately the threshold for hard landings.
Coincidentally, 14 meters is also approximately the height of a vertical bullet jump at medium mobility.

4 hours ago, Loxyen said:

If you're unlucky enough and do this a couple times under pressure you will see that you don't focus on the ground, because you're busy keeping opponents in sight, were already close to the ground and were not jumping that high anyway. Which makes timing the maybe securing jump pretty hard.

1. "you don't focus on the ground"
Don't blame the game for your own lack of focus.

2. "you're busy keeping opponents in sight"
Obviously there's a trade-off to be made. Prioritize your needs.
Also, you don't need to see the ground to know where it is. It's the ground; it doesn't move.

3. "[you] were already close to the ground"
Plan your landing before you hit the ground, then.

4. "were not jumping that high anyway"
Jump higher.

So it turns out, avoiding hard landings is ridiculously easy unless the player is paying basically no attention to his own movement.
Who'd've thunk it?