The Second Stream Podcast #16 - TennoLive Speculation, Devstream 94, Sorties, and more! ft. M.C. I.K

[AdunSaveMe]

9 hours ago, Husla said:

Floor is lava, we already have fire hazard sorties. pointless.

The occasional spot of fire is nowhere near the same as a floor-is-lava modifier.

8 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Other: Add Friendly Fire back to the game.

Friendly fire was removed for a good reason.

[Xaero]

6 hours ago, NovusNova said:

"4. What do you think the watery teaser was about?"

Earth rework teaser or more likely teaser for the Harrow quest.

What's the point of teasing Harrow quest at Tennocon if it's coming before Tennocon? Also, Earth rework should be coming along with this quest if I remember right.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Ksaero

[Xaero]

8 hours ago, Awazx said:

4. New mods for our Kavats and Kubrows.

You mean 5?

[PsiWarp]

Sounds like the new red plants on Earth and the Grineer Ghouls are related somehow! Will be interesting indeed.

[Chroia]

1. How often do you complete Sorties?

Until last weekend?
> Daily.

But I was away for a few days, and now that I'm back, I'm not logging in until I see how the repository shutdown situation is handled.

 

2. What new Sortie Conditions would you like to see?

Floor is lava - bad idea, very tileset dependent.
> Only Nullifiers (jk) - As I've been saying since "forever", once their accuracy was nerfed, they stopped being the problem. The problem is how they interact with other enemies.
A Nullifier-only sortie would prove this to be the case (and would be a cakewalk besides).
Faction-specific weapons only - Not enough options for variety.
> Randomized equipment - This could work, could also fail spectacularly, depending on your specific roll... But you could always fail/abort and try with a different roll. (Note: If you do this, don't include unranked weapons in the roll. Some people sell Prisma weapons.)
No Companions Vaccuum - Sure, why not. All it does is disallow ammo-guzzlers. Is it a good modifier? Not really. Is it terrible? Probably also not really.

 

3. What new rewards would you like to see from Sorties?

> Tokens.
Then you can put whatever you like in the table.

Glyphs are one-off rewards, as are cosmetics (unless they're tradeable), and rare resources are worse than terrible. The only ones maybe worth getting are Neurals/Neurodes/Orokin Cells... and Neurals are available on Jupiter/Kuva Fortress, Neurodes are readily available from Sentients - both of which are unlocked before you can do sorties.
Orokin Cells, I'm not sure about atm, honestly. Been a while since I've needed to farm them.

 

4. What do you think the watery teaser was about?

> No opinion

 

5. How often do you visit low-level planets like Earth?

> When I have something to do there.
Syndicate missions, alerts, quests, fissures or Kuva Floods.
Edit: so, > Sometimes.

 

-----

 

12 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I go to Earth, Mars, Venus,and Ceres often, but because I just want to run around and kill Grineer and Corpus. And I'm always bored at the end because there's nothing more to the gameplay. As long as the only goal of the game is to collect rewards, there will never be a lasting reason to go to any tileset, because players will always end up getting all the reward items there are to get. If you'd make the gameplay more involved, with more features and things in the environment (like vehicles in MGSV, GRW, or SWBF), and add multiple objectives to missions so that missions require different steps to complete (like Medal of Honor Airborne, for example), and if you'd allow all in-game actions (kills, headshots, slide kills, wall kills, parkour kills, ability kills, companion kills, console hacks, etc) to award mastery points, then you'd always have a reason to go back to any tileset, because the core focus of the game would be gameplay, not reward items. So, you'd go to tilesets based on the gameplay experience, not based solely on the rewards and resources that tileset offered.

^.
I don't think that multiple (static, mission) objectives will help (see: Kuva Assault), and not sure that mastery is a good reward for gameplay, but aside from that, yeah.

-----

12 hours ago, Urlan said:

2. While I don't think sortie modifiers are the direction personally to make them more interesting to players, I would suggest a 'No Prime Modifier' before lava floors, random gear, or other oddities.

Agreed with your opening statement.

But restriction Primes may be a bad move, since many people scrap vanilla frames once they get their Primes.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Chroia

[AdunSaveMe]

2 hours ago, Ksaero said:

You mean 5?

He listed four things.

47 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Agreed with your opening statement.

But restriction Primes may be a bad move, since many people scrap vanilla frames once they get their Primes.

There is absolutely no reason at all ever to restrict primes. They aren't significant enough compared to regular versions to be taken out, and it'll mean many people won't be able to use a lot of their frames, for you reason you mentioned.

On the subject of whether or not modifiers will make them interesting; what else can you do? With Warframe powers, infinite scaling and enemy design all being either instadeath or permacheese, modifiers are the best way to make missions more interesting. The alternative is literally just raising the enemy level or gimping the player, which are both significantly less interesting than modifiers can be.

The modifiers we have don't do the job, but I feel it's definitely the right direction.

Edited June 22, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Chroia]

20 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The modifiers we have don't do the job, but I feel it's definitely the right direction.

Maybe you're right. And maybe the problem is the current pool of modifiers.
But given player power, most sortie combinations are 'won' in the arsenal - a puzzle, a knowledge/preparation challenge; not a gameplay challenge.

Hrm.
Now I'm curious to see how a sortie capping eff at +0% would play out.
Oh wait, Arcane Energize.

Hell, I don't even know anymore. :|

Edited June 22, 2017 by Chroia

[----Legacy----]

"[...] all miracles require sacrifices" ^{I can't get the first word}

[1]Miracle: Focus system expansion

Sacrifice: players have access only to 1/3 of it depending on our alignment  

[2]Miracle: Public release of an upgraded Excalibur

Sacrifice: the salt of founders 

[Xaero]

34 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

He listed four things.

Yeah but since the discussion topics are numbered it looks confusing. But who knows, maybe watery teaser really looks like kavat/kubrow mods to someone.

[amadeusgrim]

can sortie start at level 100?

[AdunSaveMe]

17 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Maybe you're right. And maybe the problem is the current pool of modifiers.
But given player power, most sortie combinations are 'won' in the arsenal - a puzzle, a knowledge/preparation challenge; not a gameplay challenge.

Hrm.
Now I'm curious to see how a sortie capping eff at +0% would play out.
Oh wait, Arcane Energize.

Hell, I don't even know anymore. :|

It may be "won in the arsenal", sure, but that's all missions. What matters is the experience in that mission. You do the planning of your loadout, and then you apply the gameplay. The right modifiers and the right tailoring can make that gameplay matter. It can be fun to play, but it can also be engaging to play.

We need a lot more modifiers, and more at once. I'm considering trying to get people to brainstorm those ideas, and then collect them into one place, but this forum doesn't offer the right format, and it's hard to get traction on reddit. But the idea is to gather some community ideas and just kinda lob them at DE to see what happens.

It'd be a solid amount of work to upgrade this system, but if it results in sorties being something you want to play for fun, then it's absolutely worth it.

[amadeusgrim]

also we need an earth with stronger enemies

and open air survival horde mode

 

[Steamancer]

2.Other:Archwing only

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

He listed four things.

There is absolutely no reason at all ever to restrict primes. They aren't significant enough compared to regular versions to be taken out, and it'll mean many people won't be able to use a lot of their frames, for you reason you mentioned.

On the subject of whether or not modifiers will make them interesting; what else can you do? With Warframe powers, infinite scaling and enemy design all being either instadeath or permacheese, modifiers are the best way to make missions more interesting. The alternative is literally just raising the enemy level or gimping the player, which are both significantly less interesting than modifiers can be.

The modifiers we have don't do the job, but I feel it's definitely the right direction.

I believe some had a desire for removing all the normal mods; conclave mods only; or nightmare modifiers randomly applied to all missions based on mastery rank or player value. None of those really have an in-universe reason for them, and don't really increase fun, challenge, or balance but do increase frustration which is never fun. In-setting however, Grineer and Corpus can scan for and detect void radiation as our radio at the least reminds us when Ordis isn't telling jokes. Having it so that certain highly void connected gear is easily detectable by specialized installations thus requiring lesser void signatures make sense and does ideas like weapon limit sorties one better by restricting a large majority of what people are constantly saying are weapons that outclass normal tier gear. This also works as something akin to the DE Suggestion above at having faction specific weapons; and if for weapon specific sorties you sold your bow, sniper, or such; does that give you are free pass or do you have to buy a MK-1 replacement or skip that sortie? So yes, I am aware many players throw away their normal gear; that is part of the reason I suggested this modifier as it would encourage but not require having more diverse collections of warframes, weapons, companions, and mods.

[AdunSaveMe]

21 minutes ago, Urlan said:

it would encourage but not require having more diverse collections of warframes, weapons, companions, and mods.

It would require them to keep that stuff in order to participate in certain sorties, and punish them for doing what any normal player would. On top of that, it adds absolutely nothing positive to the experience itself. It doesn't make it more challenging, more fun or more interesting.

Lore explanations are absolutely meaningless when compared to making the system fun.

[Urlan]

Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

It would require them to keep that stuff in order to participate in certain sorties, and punish them for doing what any normal player would. On top of that, it adds absolutely nothing positive to the experience itself. It doesn't make it more challenging, more fun or more interesting.

Lore explanations are absolutely meaningless when compared to making the system fun.

Like existing sorties already do if the player doesn't have the correct required weapon. I agree though that I don't think modifiers do make the game more fun, but can appeal to those that feel they want an impediment to success, even if as in this case, something artificial. Jordas Verdict also having its early extraction if you don't have the required antiserum injector; which we were both against; though thankfully, Nidus hunting on Oestrus gives a possibility of farming those needed fragments.

[AdunSaveMe]

17 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Like existing sorties already do if the player doesn't have the correct required weapon.

Exactly. So why do you want to make the problem exponentially worse?

This "appeal to those who enjoy impediment to success" should not be a thing, considering the majority of people don't like it. If people want to gimp themselves, they can do so. We don't need sortie modifiers to force it on players and have people pretend it's a challenge.

[Monsterwithin]

4. Umbra

[Trichouette]

10 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Sorties are supposed to be end game content. With all the power creep, they are a cake walk regardless. Maybe they need to up the level on Raid missions, limit it to 4 people, create a corpus raid and use the raid missions as sorties instead. Then create BETTER raid missions that work like multiple missions in a quest for the whole team of 8, make that harder and longer, and come up with a worthy reward for that.

Well that won't really solve anything.

With how OP our weapons and frames are, there is nothing we can't do as long as we have access to our abilities.

4 players raid ? Pfft, just pick EV nova vauban and you still have a free slot for whatever you want.

DE don't really seem to want to implement difficulty, and there isn't really any reason for them to (sadly)

[Corial]

4. Mythical warframe known as Excalibur Umbra -v- 

[Culaio]

2. archwing

4. umbra

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Exactly. So why do you want to make the problem exponentially worse?

This "appeal to those who enjoy impediment to success" should not be a thing, considering the majority of people don't like it. If people want to gimp themselves, they can do so. We don't need sortie modifiers to force it on players and have people pretend it's a challenge.

In this we would agree, but here we are looking for modifiers to make the sorties more appealing to that same very vocal though I would agree - small - audience. Making sure that such challenges or modifiers make sense in-universe at least is a key element of top-down versus bottom-up game design, its not secondary to 'having fun'; an admittedly subjective concept; but rather how a developer goes about trying to make it so a player can have fun in their game. In short, a top-down design focuses on creating a concept and then makes the game's elements and mechanics around that concept; while Bottom-up design focuses on player actions and making mechanics, game elements, and a concept to tie the game into some unified whole. Since we are being asked to try to suggest a new modifier, we can either try to make something we want the player to do, like say complete the mission while the floor is lava as in the example; and then try to justify it or we can try to work within the setting to try to create modifiers that themselves are extensions of the setting. The idea is to create a situation that while its a negative, it can work and be worked around by the player and developers thus rewarding actions that play around that challenge, mechanic, or puzzle. While none of these suggestions will appeal to all players, we seek to minimize the fall-out by either basing it around the setting concept or by creating a mechanic and trying to make it work.

In the case of the floor being lava, how does this work in setting? In the case of primes being too obvious or enemies using devices to detect and coordinate against enemies with high void signatures is already established. In the case of the floor being lava, we force the player to play a particular manner or they die while in the prime restricted we have players that can not play if they have thrown away all of their non-prime gears. What ways do we, wanting the players to still have fun; have to enable the player to do this challenge and get their reward? Some players might have non-primes and find this a cop-out challenge or a desirable challenge, a respite for the prepared, while some players might like and enjoy wall bouncing while trying to complete a mission or dying instantly with no revive as the floor is lava. From a mechanical aspect, which is easier to implement? I feel that a prime restriction is not too far from both the already existing weapon restriction and the example suggestion above, of restricting play to particular faction weapons. Ultimately, however, we must try to strive towards ideas that make the game more fun: How might we do that while appealing to those that find it 'too easy'? In setting or by trying to justify a mechanic in-universe after the fact?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Urlan

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

DE don't really seem to want to implement difficulty, and there isn't really any reason for them to (sadly)

It's a bit much to assume DE doesn't want to add difficulty. But in the game's current state, it's not easy to come up with a challenge that's enjoyable, and not subject to cheese. This is what modifiers aim to do. Sorties are on par with raids in that enemy level is not the only obstacle you face, but where raids do it with some puzzle-like or endurance mechanics, sorties do it by changing the rules of the game.

Until DE puts in the tremendous amount of work to change the game's foundations (enemy scaling, powers, mods etc.) you can't expect them to just magically make the game hard in a way that's fair and interesting, in any other way than this. It's the best option, but it's not just the best option because it's the least bad alternative; it's the best option because it has more potential to make the game interesting.

DE does want challenge, and they do have a reason to try and do it. This is currently one of the best ways to accomplish that. The only other options are gimmicky, bland limitations, and just increasing enemy level.

Edited June 22, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Kinperor]

I don't really want more clutter in the sortie mission's rewards honestly. We used to play them daily, but they are such a chore for so little pay out that it got old fairly fast.

[Faulcun]

11 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Friendly fire was removed for a good reason.

Oh thats right. I forgot that was during a time when people didnt know how to do anything but press 4 and spam simulor.

Has anything changed?