Exalted Melee needs rethinking?

[Lakais]

17 hours ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Potentially being the operative word. In reality, you will get one shotted from your blind side. There is  little the player can do when surrounded by Toxic auras that drain health, Ice auras that slow your animations, Fire auras that knock you down, and drain auras that sap your energy. Quick Thinking, Rage, and Life Strike work when you can actually use them but if the player is getting CC'd to death they won't save you.

But I can see your point with scaling. Unless you're in a Eximus sortie, you're not going to be surrounded by Eximi on a normal bases below level 150. But at this point it would be foolish for DE to balance the game around level 40. One reason is because since the void was a thing, enemies can start at level 40-50.

100-150 levels seem like a better balance point because you can go into a mission and fight those levels from the gate, either NM LoR or Sorties.

Your "Beyond this point, proceed with your own peril" should be set at level 200+ because players do not see those levels of enemies unless they actively stay in endless missions. Anything lower, DE presents those enemy levels to you from the start of a mission.

Problem with these superhigh levels is that they are VERY specific. They are ONLY in endless missions and unreasonably far in, ONLY in ignorable special case missions. You can not balance around special cases. The problems you point out are specific to extremely high levels where, for example, armor on enemies is infamous about increasing the effective health almost astronomically. 

Why I can't get behind supporting balancing around 100+ endless content is because at that point, those who do play successfully, usually rely on an arsenal of glitches, exploits and what I could only describe as "unintended features". Where the requirement for success is finding a very specific room with a narrow team comp and then doing some action that essentially NEGATES the very content that is being played. People don't fight these enemies, they handle them via some contrived thing that if ever gets fixed because it was not intended to function like that, starts up an another "DE is anti-fun" discussion because of a belief that fringe-content is the main content. 

EDIT: Trials and Sorties fall into the "Ignorable" department. 

16 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

What would be great for exhalted melee is if combo multipliers were able to carry between standard weapons and exhalted ones when switching. I feel like the inability to do this encourages many players to remain in one mode for longer periods of time.

It'd be an interesting feature IF Exalted Blade was a short duration ability, not a sustained one. I just don't think that EB should be one of these abilities to be able to replace a frame's actual arsenal of weapons. They should be a short powerup. In which case I am completely for having buffs and features that'd make EB insanely powerful. The only frame to date that I don't see a problem with having a sustained ultimate is Titania. By the very natures of these abilites, Exalted weapons are "pure energy and light" God weapons, basically. Titania shrinks down and has a unique physical weapon. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Lakais

[SolarDwagon]

18 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I personally disagree with this, as Lakais makes some good points about how exhalted weapons work:

For me, I like building toward weapon/power synergy in these cases. Taking Titania for example, Tigris Prime works wonders for the Dex Pixia because the applicable mods work on both quite well, but I often take the Daikyu since it has similar synergy but is longer range for backline support play when I'm not in Razorwing. With Excalibur, I know there are certain sacrifices I have to make from my melee build to maximize EB, but that's okay if EB is going to be my primary mode of melee damage (and I mean come on, EB is strong enough without Blood Rush or Condition Overload).

What would be great for exhalted melee is if combo multipliers were able to carry between standard weapons and exhalted ones when switching. I feel like the inability to do this encourages many players to remain in one mode for longer periods of time.

How can you disagree with a fact of mods not working? o.o
I'm not saying that they should, but I'm saying that even if we take as true that they shouldn't work on exalted melee, there's an issue with exalted melee.
My personal point was more that melee weapons are now outclassing exalted melee in basically every aspect at once, since most of the exalted combos are also horrible. Excalibur just gets away with it since projected energy blades pulls him out of the category of melee.

[Azamagon]

There's one entirely different thing I have a problem with, in regards to Exalted weapons and other abilities that are affected by weapon-mods:

Since they use your weapon's mods, it can severely hamper what weapons you can bring for certain Warframes (unless your intention is to just keep it as a "statstick" for your ability/Exalted weapon):

• Acolyte mods don't count, Rivens don't count and so on (I really understand Riven mods, and some of the Acolyte mods too, Blood Rush mainly)
• Ivara can't bring a shotgun (but Titania can, cuz reasons)
• Wukong, Valkyr, Excalibur and Mesa require specific modding on their melee/secondary for optimal use. For Wukong, add to it that his ulti is absolutely horrible in multiple ways, which doesn't help his case in any way either.
• Atlas also requires quite a specific modding (although to a lesser degree than the above)

Only Ash has very slight requirements (he only cares about attackspeed mods), so I don't count him in. In fact, I think making his ulti unaffected by meleemods, with Bladestorm being quite a bit quicker (among other fixes...) by default seems more appropriate in his case.

So, why not let Exalted weaponry (and possibly also abilities currently affected by weapon-mods) be modded as a seperate weapon? As for questions that might arise:

• The amount of modding points you get for an Exalted weapon equals the amount you have on your Warframe (so the aura matters, as does an Orokin Reactor)
• The amount of polarities (but not the type) on your Warframe gives you the same amount of polarities in your Exalted weapon. These polarities could be universal ones, meaning they half the cost of ANY polarity.
• The level of your Warframe determines the level of your Exalted weapon too.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Azamagon

[(PSN)DBR87]

5 hours ago, Lakais said:

Problem with these superhigh levels is that they are VERY specific. They are ONLY in endless missions and unreasonably far in, ONLY in ignorable special case missions. You can not balance around special cases. The problems you point out are specific to extremely high levels where, for example, armor on enemies is infamous about increasing the effective health almost astronomically. 

Why I can't get behind supporting balancing around 100+ endless content is because at that point, those who do play successfully, usually rely on an arsenal of glitches, exploits and what I could only describe as "unintended features". Where the requirement for success is finding a very specific room with a narrow team comp and then doing some action that essentially NEGATES the very content that is being played. People don't fight these enemies, they handle them via some contrived thing that if ever gets fixed because it was not intended to function like that, starts up an another "DE is anti-fun" discussion because of a belief that fringe-content is the main content. 

EDIT: Trials and Sorties fall into the "Ignorable" department. 

It'd be an interesting feature IF Exalted Blade was a short duration ability, not a sustained one. I just don't think that EB should be one of these abilities to be able to replace a frame's actual arsenal of weapons. They should be a short powerup. In which case I am completely for having buffs and features that'd make EB insanely powerful. The only frame to date that I don't see a problem with having a sustained ultimate is Titania. By the very natures of these abilites, Exalted weapons are "pure energy and light" God weapons, basically. Titania shrinks down and has a unique physical weapon. 

But why would Trials and Sorties be in the "ignorable list of content" or "do at your own risk" when developers give you those mission with the expectation veteran players should be able to complete them? When a developer creates content, they have to give you the tools to be able to complete said content. Trails and Sorties aren't endless missions, they are the closest thing we have to End Game. It would seem counterproductive to release an Exterminate mission with enemies ranging from level 100 to 120 and expect players to complete it for a reward if the content wasn't balanced.

Endless missions are the special case where a player isn't expected to "complete" it because there is no end. The only expectation is that they survive for as long as the player can. DE doesn't have to give you Prime Serration because it's not expected that he player stay in Orokin Defense for 90 waves. But if DE is going to make something like the Jordas Verdict it has to be created and scaled appropriately so player can beat it. 

At no point am I suggesting Exalted Blade should be 1-shotting level 200 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Exemi. I am not saying the game should be balanced around level 200 enemies because the average player will probably never them and DE has not made any content that regularly drops the player in a horde of level 200 enemies.

And I'm not even suggesting players should be able to 1 shot level  100 enemies...even though thanks to Melee weapons like Lesion and Primary weapons like Tigris Prime we certainly can.

What I am saying is if DE releases content with the expectation that the experience members of the player base can complete it than they have to balance level/game difficulty for/around that. If they completely balanced the game around level 40 enemies, that is only HALF of the game's content. That is barely Tower IV void. A developer wouldn't just create Kuva Floods and Sorties when your max Pistol Hornet can only kill up to level 40 Flame Blades.

So unless you want high level content removed, Kuva Floods, Sorties, and Trials have to be in consideration when balancing. They developed those missions with the expectation anyone can complete them with enough resource and time investment.

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

How can you disagree with a fact of mods not working? o.o

I'm not a fan of the idea of all melee mods working for exhalted weapons, because then any Warframe with Exhalted access would have a fiercely more powerful exhalted and would have no reason to use their melee weapon (unless out of energy, which is pretty easy to avoid.). Exhalteds already receive addtional power from two sources (melee mods and frame power modifiers) rather than melee's single source, so having mods that only work for standard melee weapons gives them a fighting chance at being used.

Though if what you say is true, and that balance is shifting to favor standard weapons and starting to push out exhalted, that is a problem that should be addressed. I really just want to see an avoiding of "mandatory" status. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

They need to work on how exalted melee works in rhis game. Lgod of war status

[Nazrethim]

Ash needs one to replace failstorm. And I got an idea for it:

Duration Based (not drain over time). Tap to cast it. While active, Tap to refresh or Hold (fixed 1s with autorelease) to cancel. Replaces Sideroll, Backspring, Roll by manic-like short teleports. Finishers done in this mode would make up to 4 clones to show up to finish off nearby enemies (essentially Ash get's the ability to Finish off up to 5 enemies per Finisher)

Combos:

EEE : does jacksquat

EpauseEE / EEpauseEE : attack>attack>radial attack that inflicts bleeds> 90º attack that opens enemies struck to Finisher

Ermb+EE : attack>smoke dash that pierces trough enemies and travels 6m inflicting Bleeds>radial attack that knocks down enemies

 

With this, not only are combos short and with a definite function (something the other Stance Abilities lack) but also has synergy with Teleport (instead of overlapping, like current failstorm does).

Making it Duration based makes Duration an important stat to raise (and Fleeting Expertise less of a straight upgrade and more of  "power at a price")

[Lakais]

8 hours ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

But why would Trials and Sorties be in the "ignorable list of content" or "do at your own risk" when developers give you those mission with the expectation veteran players should be able to complete them? When a developer creates content, they have to give you the tools to be able to complete said content. Trails and Sorties aren't endless missions, they are the closest thing we have to End Game. It would seem counterproductive to release an Exterminate mission with enemies ranging from level 100 to 120 and expect players to complete it for a reward if the content wasn't balanced.

Endless missions are the special case where a player isn't expected to "complete" it because there is no end. The only expectation is that they survive for as long as the player can. DE doesn't have to give you Prime Serration because it's not expected that he player stay in Orokin Defense for 90 waves. But if DE is going to make something like the Jordas Verdict it has to be created and scaled appropriately so player can beat it. 

At no point am I suggesting Exalted Blade should be 1-shotting level 200 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Exemi. I am not saying the game should be balanced around level 200 enemies because the average player will probably never them and DE has not made any content that regularly drops the player in a horde of level 200 enemies.

And I'm not even suggesting players should be able to 1 shot level  100 enemies...even though thanks to Melee weapons like Lesion and Primary weapons like Tigris Prime we certainly can.

What I am saying is if DE releases content with the expectation that the experience members of the player base can complete it than they have to balance level/game difficulty for/around that. If they completely balanced the game around level 40 enemies, that is only HALF of the game's content. That is barely Tower IV void. A developer wouldn't just create Kuva Floods and Sorties when your max Pistol Hornet can only kill up to level 40 Flame Blades.

So unless you want high level content removed, Kuva Floods, Sorties, and Trials have to be in consideration when balancing. They developed those missions with the expectation anyone can complete them with enough resource and time investment.

My issue with very high level content is not that it exists. Not my cup of tea, but you do you. But my issue is if that content can only be tackled effectively via use of features or "tricks" that skirt uncomfortably close to exploits and glitches or unintended functions. Not to mention the fact that enemy scaling itself is a mess. Before weapons, frames or anything else can be balanced, there needs to be a clear base to build on and around. Right now we don't have that. 

As for the content devs putting in being built to be conquered... not so sure about that. Quite a few times I have seen developers of other games putting in content with the express purpose of it being an impossible challenge. Something that the devs themselves can barely do, then made a bit more difficult and then given to the players. I have come under the impression that many "endgame" dungeons/raids/whathaveyou were built with that mentality.

But that is not the case of what we have now. Right now it's devs putting this content in BECAUSE we can tackle it. The Trials, super-Kuva missions and Sorties are basically DE going "Ok... these guys broke everything and we don't know where to even start fixing things... So lets give them something to chew on so they don't leave while we figure this out... hopefully."

[Gurpgork]

On 6/23/2017 at 7:17 AM, SenorClipClop said:

I'm not a fan of the idea of all melee mods working for exhalted weapons, because then any Warframe with Exhalted access would have a fiercely more powerful exhalted and would have no reason to use their melee weapon (unless out of energy, which is pretty easy to avoid.). Exhalteds already receive addtional power from two sources (melee mods and frame power modifiers) rather than melee's single source, so having mods that only work for standard melee weapons gives them a fighting chance at being used.

Though if what you say is true, and that balance is shifting to favor standard weapons and starting to push out exhalted, that is a problem that should be addressed. I really just want to see an avoiding of "mandatory" status. 

And therein lies the problem with Exalted weapons in this game, or at least what the problem was before the introduction of Body Count and Blood Rush.

The problem with Exalted weapons was never really their power so much as it was their uptime. And I think you can extend this to almost every ability that has ever been problematic in the history of Warframe; it's not so much that the abilities themselves are too strong, it's more that the abilities are too strong considering how often we can use them.

What really needs to be reworked is the energy economy. Fix that, and we can have Exalted Weapons that are ridiculously powerful. And we can stop having nerfs-masquerading-as-reworks, like with Blade Storm. 

[Kezriak]

On 6/22/2017 at 2:52 AM, SolarDwagon said:

Sp, I've been looking at all the Exalted melee frames recently. (For those confused, Exalted is the most commonly used descriptor for abilities that replace your normal weapons). The number of mods that don't work with these is becoming wider and wider, which pushes me further and further away from using these abilities, which does weaken the frames utility overall as well. Excalibur still has the advantage of projection on his Exalted, and the new augment definitely improves it, but otherwise.... both Hysteria and Primal Fury are getting outclassed by what normal melee builds can do using the second (third?) generation of melee mods. Primal Fury is especially outclassed given that it's one selling point can easily be duplicated in a single mod that is worth using most of the time.
Hysteria still has it's place, but personally I've gone off it completely due to all the issues that can end it suddenly-personally I want an actual rework (not a cost rework) of this to make it truly a "berserker" ability.
Am I underrating these abilities, has melee power creep gone too far, or what?

Honestly, once we have a exalted weapon ultimate for all the different weapon types (melee mainly, I know we got 2 ranged in the case of mesa and ivara) I'd like to see them across the board scrapped and reworked into the melee channeling system in some crazy way, with new ultimates being given to all the frames, or maybe have them be able to switch between them? idk just brainstorming

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

On the topic of eternal war(and staying on topic as well)

using a condition overload and a hybrid of crit and status on your melee is pretty much the only way to make hysteria match a eternal war setup(with a pure crit melee.)

its funny how that works tbh

[P0Pz]

@SolarDwagon you got post 😎

[InDueTime-EN-]

On 6/22/2017 at 9:29 PM, Kaotyke said:

Wukong needs better combos, has anyone tried to do the EE(Pause)E...? 9/10 times I cant use it because of the small time window.

To make it actually better would be to get rid of most slams and just make sweeping motions, if it had the Orthos Prime reach at the begining, it wouldnt matter the damage because you would be hitting everything in a large radius.

No need to be at THIS Point

But, you get my drift.

This makes me want to play wukong. I've got to try this when i get home.