Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

[sinisteran]

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

edit: ppl seeing this could potentially get the wrong perception and judge preemptively. is that considered proof of revenue loss?

Nope, because what you are doing is exercising free speech unless you are actively defaming them. But if you went Datamined Harrows questline and posted all audio dialogue, script etc then yes.

[atom]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1. Like i just said above, you are playing their game and you need to abide by their rules. You wanting to play the game like you like is not a good argument. They set the rules. Be friendly and give reasons and hope they see your side. Taking number they dont provide and then getting angry about it is not going to help in this situation.

2. It's not info they provide and you take.

3. Im pretty sure my question is clear in what i am asking. Dont know what exactly you are taking from it to translate to me saying 15% crit is bad.

Is it enough to mod for crit for a weapon with meh crit?

I am asking if the EB bonus, the 15%, will give you a wider range of weapons to use for you min/maxers. Does it mean that you can equip a weapon with meh crit. A weapon with meh crit. A WEAPON WITH MEH CRIT.

Is this the part that's confusing, somehow? I am asking if it's fine to use a weapon that doesnt have high crit but average (meh) crit.

Do you understand now? Cause i dont it can make it any clearer.

4. Not really, you guys keep answering by posting builds instead of saying why that info is essential.

Im trying to get you guys to create an actual argument thats not, "I want numbers cause i use numbers!" If this is all you got i can see why DE takes so long in giving numbers. Because they are not making Number Cruncher The Game, they are making Warframe.

 

 

1. their game yes but my time and money which i wouldn't spend if i didn't enjoy. i'm not going to comment on rules which i agreed to. i am friendly, i gave reasons.

2. and like the wiki if someone didn't "take" that information and share, many players probably wouldn't be here for lack of information which they considered to be essential.

3. i'm sorry it seems i was confused. if i understand you correctly the answer to your question can only be found on the wiki here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Exalted_Blade. afaik  most of the stats on that page are datamined and it would be impossible to answer you without it since it's not presented anywhere ingame.

edit:

28 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Nope, because what you are doing is exercising free speech unless you are actively defaming them. But if you went Datamined Harrows questline and posted all audio dialogue, script etc then yes.

i think even if DE could prove financial loss due to data mined / leaked unfinished content for their beta (not final) game they don't need to for reasons already stated in this thread and i'm sure it won't be the case.

my heart goes out to both parties involved and i hope DE reconsiders and sets another example for the industry by being honest and allowing data miners to cooperate with them.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by ..atom..

[Ditto132]

15 hours ago, AbhijitSM said:

To be honest the above display is pretty misleading in a way. The sortie rewards show a total 11 rewards but they are in reality 24 which is a pretty diluted drop table. 3 types of rivens (soon to be 4), 5 types of focus lens, 5 types of greater focus lens & 4 types of boosters. Will you display the % drop rates for each of these ? Right now the riven mods seem to have unequal drop rates between Pistol/AR rivens & shotgun feeling like a rarer one. Why wasn't this added since beginning in the first place ?

Well, if you want the percentages... brace yourself...

Personally, I dislike the information shown like this:

I prefer the information to be shown like this:

Spoiler

And for Relics, like this:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/799258-de-fix-your-sortie-rewards-table-again/?page=2#comment-8709114

Edited June 25, 2017 by Ditto132

[Mak_Gohae]

2 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Not to say I don't trust DE, but I don't trust DE on this particular matter given what has happened in the past in regards to matters like this, from outright incorrect information on locations to farm for items (which kudos to them they DID go and correct when pointed out, but why that happened in the first place is a goddamn mystery), to denials about drop rates being borked (such as Chesa Kubrows not dropping upon launch from Alerts), and what I view as the outright malicious situation regarding old Prime Parts in the Void where they had absurdly low drop rates and upon being called out on it after people saw the correct values DE's response was to make it harder to get that sort of information.

 

Now I'm not going to go into particulars or finger pointing about the current situation regarding Void vs DE (I made my stance perfectly clear in an earlier post in the Datamine megathread), but I strongly urge DE to seriously consider getting in a third party that can independently verify all the information they plan to add in to gain a bit more trust back from the community (or at least the portion who cares about this stuff), and to calm mine and other's potential fears about DE saying one thing and the opposite being true like what has happened in the past.

I like how no one mentions that the datamining came AFTER people played the game and saw goofy stuff.

Datamining is simply used as the gotcha moment but no one remembers how it got to that point.

[sinisteran]

 

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

quote

The easiest solution  I think DE can and should do is to change to Eula and allow data mining as long as it does not breach fair use or set STATED PARAMETERS. 

For example they could say in the EULA to allow drop rate, locations, rotations, stats of released weapon and frames within the latest build or something like this. 

And state the things not allowed- audio clips, scripts, or anything related to frames and weapons that are currently not in the latest ver of the consumer build.

But the grey area would be S#&$ they showed off in devstream or by accident.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by sinisteran

[CeePee]

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

[boat]

Thanks Rebecca. Drop tables are nice to have but I don't think future content should be released to the public before it is finalized.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

It's fun, because there's an assumption that VoiD_Glitch work damaged DE.

I might say that having the chance to check the drop tables he datamined gave me faith to fund the game, something that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

Then, again, we all know how this will end.

Datamine stuff won't be anymore in a pubblic repository but spread everywhere, just harder to find.

 

On a side note.

The supposed damage argument is so funny.

Oberon P was leaked and I think it's ugly, knowing that he was ugly 2 weeks in advance could have changed my perception of the frame being fat and ugly? Nope LOL

 

Umbra being shown...is it really that bad?

At least I know it's in the game in some capacity and DE hasn't been just speaking for the last 18 months.

It gave me something to look forward to, something that gave me hype more than DE was able with 2 months of "Come to Tennocon"...yeah...from Italy...easypeasy....

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

It isn't that funny considering people still play games by EA and ubisoft.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Valiant

[EchoesOfRain]

DE, you're missing an opportunity to work with someone that can really help you out. Even if you guys are giving us the drop chance list, how do I know that it's actually accurate? Void_Glitch kept you guys honest, and helped find a bug or two. He gave you guys a chance to see the community's reaction to weapon stats and item drop chances before they went live, giving you guys time to touch up on them. 

Maybe let Void_Glitch do his Datamining, but let him report to you  what he's going to release before he releases it, so to confirm that he doesn't show anything out of line

[blacklusterseph]

2 hours ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

I don't understand this either. I see a lot of people throwing around the word 'trust' as if DE is a hospital or a bank. As far as I am aware, outside of China they are not obligated to do anything about displaying drop rates. If someone doesn't like the drop chances they are getting, then use your power as a consumer and leave. There are plenty of other F2P devs out there you can go and put your "trust" in... whatever the hell that means...

[blacklusterseph]

11 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Maybe let Void_Glitch do his Datamining, but let him report to you  what he's going to release before he releases it, so to confirm that he doesn't show anything out of line

There are snippets going around where he was apparently told to moderate what he is releasing under threat of getting banned from some or other design/dev/council. He seemingly was banned eventually, so if asking him in good faith to modertate stuff doesn't work, what is the point of trying to work with him? By his own admission he doesn't play the game anymore (which makes his motivation unclear) and he knew about the exploit but then goes to great length in this thread to say how it is not his responsibility to communicate that with DE. Essentially then if he doesn't care when or how DE (and by extension the playerbase) gets screwed over in terms of a breach, what's the point of trying to recruit him?

[DawnFalcon]

 

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

<<excuses>>

So you'll drive away players AND do your own secret datamining? Well

 

11 hours ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

No, quite common game devs are not trusted by their players.

And yet they've shut down a source which has caught numerous issues given their fairly poor QA. So, no, sorry, your "of course" isn't.

 

9 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

There are snippets going around where he was apparently told to moderate what he is releasing under threat of getting banned from some or other design/dev/council.

That was a couple of years ago. DE didn't want a dataminer in the Design Council forum. 100% fair, up to them. Heck, if they banned dataminers it'd be no more than a frown. They went to *legal letters* - going after *individuals* (not even projects) sets a precedent. As I said, I've disabled the discord overlay and macro I used to rapid fire certain weapons. Basic common sense. Heck, good Q if the wiki will be censored now.

(Certainly a lot of datamined information will only be released within certain clans now...)

So - that was the *only* previous direct contact. DE have a very spotty record, and whiteknighting them looks really, really bad in context.

Edited June 25, 2017 by DawnFalcon
brevity

[GhostLacuna]

8 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

So what you are telling me here is that you do not need to know the weapon range stat cause you answer is, "Put range in a melee to get range."

Yeah, everyone knows that. Is there a weapon where putting range doesnt give you range?

this about exalted blade which you state doesnt actually use the weapon stat. So my has no answer cause weapon crit is meaninless

WHat you are telling here is that there are people that will look at a stat and not do further research? I mean, two seconds into watching some one use the sonicor will tell you that this stat does not represent the game.

I really hope people dont pick weapons like this.

the video spotlight says your weapon effect EB but you later say that it doesnt, only the mods do. I guess they should clarify that.

is there no way to find this info out in the game by playing the game and seeing numbers?

Well the chesa eggs will take a while since they take a while to spawn.

Taking a long time to show numbers? Yeah, it's their game and they set the rules. People need to get this in their heads. You have to wait until they are ready.

BTW, saying they have lax measures doesnt mean it's ok to do it.

 

 You clearly are not even trying to understand what me and others have explained to you. 

range is important because it affects how many enemies you can hit.  The mods reach and primed reach does not in fact increase range the same way on all weapons. 

polearms, whips and staves get an amazing size increase on their hitboxes. So much that most of them extend out from the physical model 10 meters across. 

the galatine prime reach around 4 meters with primed reach if i recall right. 

Also yes trhere are weapons that haver such a small range that even primed reach wont do jack S#&amp;&#036;. obex is a prime example of this. 

As for my example about crit rates..... well you clearly have problems reading basic information if you cant understand basic erxamples. 

but lets make it as damn basic as we can. 

15% crit chance on exalted blade is not meh and never will be me. 

your weapon does not affect this at all unless we are talking about swords because just using a sword for the mod slots will increase your speed with 10%

since we want the most power out of this we use swords. 

The reason galatine prime is my example is because even modded for pure damage it will be helpful when outside of exalted blade. 

now lets go over why the hell 15% crit chance is not meh. 

FIRE RATE. 

You quite clearly have no idea how it works. Nor do you know that all melee weapon speed is counted in fire rate. 

a weapon with a fire rate of  10 and a crit chance of 10% will outpeform an weapon with a fire rate of 2 and a crit rate of 20%

that is why you add berzerker and primed fury as mods onto the swords you use for the mod base when using exalted blade. 

berzerker is also the reason you use true steel since crit chance mods affect exalted blade itself and increase its base critical chance to 24%.

again basic information.

Now why does this not work as you think with exalted blade?

Becasue you clearly have not looked into it.

Exalted bvlade is not only the waves its the blade itself as well.

Since the blade pierce and can hit multiple enemies at a time that modded 24% crit chance will have the possibility to not only trigger from the wave when you hit your first target  

if you are close enough (which you should due to dropoff) your will hit the first target with the blade itself and the wave at the same time. Further more you will hit all enemies within 40 meters that the waves goes through at 15meters per second(its speed out to 40m)

that gives you the chance if used correctly to hit more then 8 enemies directly with one swing. 

Modded correctly you wont do one swing during that time. you will have finished 4.

So to answer your question exalted blades crit chance of 15% is not bad and its worth to mod for. 

As for staticor mainsteam users will never ever test things out themselves. There is a reason DE have quite a few youtube partners and the guides of lotus. 

And no there is no way outside very long experiments done by several people in tandem and frame for frame video to find anything near the real numbers by just playing the game. 

The you have situations like the chesa kubrow eggs where the found ones didnt even have the code needed for chesas to be one of the outcomes. Only those brought via platinum did. 

Your answer to the whole chesa incident shows you have no idea what happened at all. Since you didnt even know they could not spawn from dropped eggs at all.

We found out very quickly that several archwing weapon parts didnt drop at all. DE did absolutly nothing for several months. Wasting a lot of peoples time and effor since the parts didnt even have a drop location all the while DE happily said they where in the drop tables. 

Trust and respect is earned not given freely. 

But by reading your previous posts i doubt you will understand my viewpoint either way since you have ignored basic facts even if we explained them to you over and over. 

I for one wont be wasting more of my time explaining basic min/maxing in gaming. 

[blacklusterseph]

45 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

So - that was the *only* previous direct contact. DE have a very spotty record, and whiteknighting them looks really, really bad in context.

Well this is what I am curious about: If he was asked before to change his practises without any mentions of legality, and he refused to do it, why is a cease and desist so shocking to you?

[(PSN)Chino_Feo_1337]

I'm scared about this thread getting deleted by one of the mods for going "off topic" because that's what always happens in threads that could hurt DE in some way. 

[Operative_Shift]

17 hours ago, Spooky_Shuck said:

To put this as politely as I can, however; I am unsure how you can carry yourself in this discussion so arrogantly, as if you are dropping truth bombs, or whatever 'spilling tea' means, when you've really not demonstrated the comprehensive knowledge you'd need to back up such a self-assured tone.

I'm not exactly SURE that you realize that you know who you're talking to. If you're referencing Rob, as in from agayguyplays, thats ME bud. And, personally I'm a bit too busy creating content and streaming to be dealing with this here. Check your facts! Kthnxbai!! <3 <3 XO XO

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Chino_Feo_1337 said:

I'm scared about this thread getting deleted by one of the mods for going "off topic" because that's what always happens in threads that could hurt DE in some way. 

Except it kinda is going off topic. The main point of this thread was about sharing information about drop rates and percentages and it's blown up into the legal actions of cease and desist, which is not of our business to be honest. b

[AbhijitSM]

8 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

And for Relics, like this:
 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/799258-de-fix-your-sortie-rewards-table-again/?page=2#comment-8709114

Shotgun riven 1.6% drop chance -_-  

Thanks for putting up that info btw. I also realized that the 4th resource booster is not in the drops which is the my most preferred one.

Edited June 25, 2017 by AbhijitSM

[(PSN)Chino_Feo_1337]

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Except it kinda is going off topic. The main point of this thread was about sharing information about drop rates and percentages and it's blown up into the legal actions of cease and desist, which is not of our business to be honest. b

Because the community naturally wants to talk about that. I guess it's just wandering off into what it's meant to wander off to: A member for the community that some of us believe is very important has been personally attacked by digital extremes and we want, to express our concerns. 

[Mak_Gohae]

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

You clearly are not even trying to understand what me and others have explained to you. 

range is important because it affects how many enemies you can hit.  The mods reach and primed reach does not in fact increase range the same way on all weapons. 

polearms, whips and staves get an amazing size increase on their hitboxes. So much that most of them extend out from the physical model 10 meters across. 

the galatine prime reach around 4 meters with primed reach if i recall right. 

Also yes trhere are weapons that haver such a small range that even primed reach wont do jack S#&amp;&#036;. obex is a prime example of this. 

This is the statement that started this whole conversation.

But where can I find range of melee weapons?

I ask what are you going to do with that stat?

And your reply is, "Adding range gives your weapon a longer reach!" Yeah, it does... everyone knows that. Why are you replying by say more range is mo better? Who said it wasnt?

I am asking why do you need to know the range stat of melee weapons. I didnt ask is range good. You dont need stats to know how pole arms get longer reach than anything else. Playing the game will show you this.

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

As for my example about crit rates..... well you clearly have problems reading basic information if you cant understand basic erxamples. 

but lets make it as damn basic as we can. 

15% crit chance on exalted blade is not meh and never will be me. 

quote me saying 15% crit chance on EB is meh.

I have explained this several times i dont know why this is ignored.

I will repost an explanation from another post for ease of reading.

Im pretty sure my question is clear in what i am asking. Dont know what exactly you are taking from it to translate to me saying 15% crit is bad.Is it enough to mod for crit for a weapon with meh crit?I am asking if the EB bonus, the 15%, will give you a wider range of weapons to use for you min/maxers. Does it mean that you can equip a weapon with meh crit. A weapon with meh crit. A WEAPON WITH MEH CRIT.Is this the part that's confusing, somehow? I am asking if it's fine to use a weapon that doesnt have high crit but average (meh) crit.Do you understand now? Cause i dont it can make it any clearer.

 

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

FIRE RATE. 

You quite clearly have no idea how it works. Nor do you know that all melee weapon speed is counted in fire rate. 

when did i say anything about firerate?

 

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

So to answer your question exalted blades crit chance of 15% is not bad and its worth to mod for.

Never said this.

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

And no there is no way outside very long experiments done by several people in tandem and frame for frame video to find anything near the real numbers by just playing the game. 

So there is a way but it's too long so instead you go do things you are not supposed to.

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

The you have situations like the chesa kubrow eggs where the found ones didnt even have the code needed for chesas to be one of the outcomes. Only those brought via platinum did. 

Your answer to the whole chesa incident shows you have no idea what happened at all. Since you didnt even know they could not spawn from dropped eggs at all.

where are you getting this from?

What im saying is how the events actually played out. All these events that end with datamining come from people playing first then people later datamining.

But the people that want to datamine conveniently ignore history and rewrite it to their desire.

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

But by reading your previous posts i doubt you will understand my viewpoint either way since you have ignored basic facts even if we explained them to you over and over.

How can i understand your viewpoint when you are replying to things i have never said?

Quote

I for one wont be wasting more of my time explaining basic min/maxing in gaming. 

never ask for people to explain min/maxing.

[DawnFalcon]

8 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

Well this is what I am curious about: If he was asked before to change his practises without any mentions of legality, and he refused to do it, why is a cease and desist so shocking to you?

He was excluded from the DC over two years ago, and DE *stopped* there, deliberately. Hardly an excuse for leaping right to legal threats now. Moreover, the stated reason DE made about hacking is clear nonsense.

Makes exactly as much sense as one of my old Landlords. Who banned pictures from being hung on the walls (no nails) -  fair enough!. Who was routinely in the place, but suddenly a year later issued everyone with blu-tacked posters on the wall with notice to leave! Because it made the house "look grubby".

 

Mak_Gohae - Hypocrite more, secret-dataminer!

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by DawnFalcon
tidied up

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, DawnFalcon said:

 

Mak_Gohae - Critizing Math now?

 

when did i criticized math? post it.

Quote

Oh dear. As you try and justify the Chessa incident with handwaving.

When did i "handwave" the chesa incident? post it.

Quote

No, 100% found with datamining.

Nope.

Here's a reddit post discussing this and featuring void glitch. Look at the dates. There are 2 post a month before the datamine mentioning the egg situation.

All these events follow the same pattern where people playing the game see the issue then the datamine comes after to further prove it.

 

[DawnFalcon]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

<handwaving>

 

 

edit: oh his issue was VG shared. Well.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by DawnFalcon
his "side"

[Mak_Gohae]

5 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

"Post my post"

"Post my post"

A lie.

 

 

show proof that i said those made up statements you claim i said. 

Why cant you? 

Quote

And yes, let's look why people had *any idea* something was wrong.

Yes, this is what i am asking.

Quote

You just want people to waste their time, as you make up stories. Well. If you hate Warframe players that much...

You made a claim that the chesa egg situation was all datamining. 

I just showed you proof, featuring void glitch, that shows your statement is incorrect. Through playtesting people caught the situation first THEN datamining came in later. 

Now it's time for you to back up your claim showing info backing your story. 

It's likely that you will not because all you do is make claims with no backing to mess around, i guess. 

Dont know how this is supposed to help your pro-numbers side, if you are on that side. Or maybe you are here with the purpose to make those people look bad for some reason.