Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

[BongoSkaggs]

How about we just have an "Advanced Mission Information" flyout button when we select a node on the star chart that lists all of this data? That way it can be in game instead of being sequestered on YET ANOTHER webpage.

And then could it would be possible to add a Search bar added to the star chart that will highlight nodes that contain the item we want to look for. Bingo bango. Job well done.

Plus, maybe down the line you guys could look at perhaps standardizing the drop tables a little more. More than a few nodes provide little benefit because they have no good rewards that other locations do not spit out faster/more consistently.

[Blakrana]

28 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s.

As I mentioned in another thread yesterday, I feel God Eater 2: Rage Burst gives an excellent example.

In the image you can see part of the rewards list for the first Difficulty 14 mission available (nothing special, i just hit a menu); conditions for drops, drop chances, items gained.

Clean. Concise. Clear.

To access this menu in game, all I have to do is have cursor highlight on a mission and hit X (I use controller to play) to show this list. Therefore, something akin to this could be very nice as it's not thrown at you, but it's there to be understood when you want it. Top image is top of the list for mission, bottom image is middle/rarer stuff.

28 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Here we have Rarity colour conventions to set expectations about what you'd be likely to receive when playing a given Sortie.

Seeing as you mentioned it, I'd like to weigh on the colour coding aspect as well; as a colourblind player, colour coding items gets a bit fickle on determining quite what I'm looking at. It's a good step for everyone, but as a QoL aspect, some kind of symbol to go along with it can help for clarity.

Much like mod cards have the 1 to 4 star pips on them to dictate rarity beyond their colour, so too could the drop lists in sorties or the like. Minor, but if we're going to talk about transparency, let's also consider information clarity along with it.

All the numbers in the world won't mean squat to me if I can't read them, after all.

Either way, I hope my example above helps give an idea of what to consider, potentially.

Otherwise, apologies for going on, as always.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Blakrana
And the rest of the image. Wow I spaced there...

[Neofaucheur]

Take a look at the dataminer work. I'm thinking about something in particular and if you haven't seen it yet I'll link it to you via PM, since that would be against EULA to do so here anyway.

You should also have a look at GranBlue Fantasy (Japanese mobile game), because the did it well (RNG is way less complicated than Warframe though):

Spoiler

 

[(PSN)VoiD_Glitch]

Rebecca, 

I have read your post and I appreciate the time and effort that you and others are putting in to build this website. However, I would like to leave some remarks on some of the statements that you made though.

"Back in November 2016 we colour coded our Sortie Drops to better indicate rarity as seen here: smI9iRtfbACqGZvNZ629ER6w70evvzEP7srnz8AG Here we have Rarity colour conventions to set expectations about what you'd be likely to receive when playing a given Sortie. This was an attempt to display the key value that these datamines provided: a value proposition of chance and time investment, and that's not something we want to take away. This is something we've been actively iterating on, but now we have an urgency to do it faster. But a visual guide isn't as good as numbers; datamining provided those. That's something we lived with and at some times appreciated until the revealed contents were being hacked, sold, and added to the public build."

As others and myself have told you, I was not involved in the situation in which unobtainable contents were hacked into the public build of the game. By revoking my ability to publish in-game data in a centralized format, you have targeted me and your community for reasons that should have only been attributed to one individual (or individuals). This is not fair. Sending me a legal letter to enforce your power over something you have not instated yourself is a terrible way to handle this entire situation.

"What happened yesterday (that was discussed on Reddit) isn't about hiding drop rates for us. We're working on sharing these on our website in a procedural, automatic way (similar to recent Chinese laws, but universally)... but it's not about that. This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information. "

Still, it had nothing to do with me, so I should not have been targeted for it. Datamining does not equate to hacking, nor does vice versa. They are two different things that your lawyers will not understand if they do not play video games (specifically in this case, Warframe).

"Soon we'll have a webpage that is automated to drop provide information for those who seek it"

Sounds fair to me if it provides an Item Count, Rarity, and Drop Chance percentage.

"We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s. Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions). There were a few (only one from a game I play), but clearly we have an opportunity here! We want to set a new standard of transparency with our community and give our players further insight into the processes in which they are assigned rewards." 

You know, I would be willing to assist you, but you people seem to be against me in this... Additionally, I could provide a report I wrote about Warframe Random Number Generation a long time ago, if that would assist you in your explanation of your Warframe Random Number Generation mechanics.

^^

My thoughts.

Edited June 22, 2017 by (PS4)VoiD_Glitch

[--Q--Oren]

all of this should be ing not on a website i shouldent be having to cheak the wiki or another site for drop tables or drop chances all of this should be in the game

Edited June 22, 2017 by --Q--Oren

[Soldier1312]

This should've been there from the very beginning.

[JesterTheNight]

Uhm, this will be good for people already playing, but I wonder how much this will be affecting people interested in starting playing the game. Let's say I wasn't a WF player but wanted to get in, I'd check various guides and stuff to see if the f2p model is good and other stuff. Then I'd see all the people calling the game warfarm, grindframe etc. then check the % and see the 0.1% mods/rewards, I'd definitely think twice about starting the game (this is incredibly subjective of course, some people enjoy the grind).

Also, this doesn't feel a genuine move from DE, feels pretty forced (someone hacked a P streamline and traded it looks like?). Well, as I said, all in all this is a good move, but sure leaves me wondering about future developments.

Also:

Spoiler

DDD: Dream Drop Distance

 

[Tesseract7777]

32 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Free-to-play is done differently by each developer - and we're a developer that has basically signed ourselves up to all aspects of making free-to-play our own. When we do free to play, we build systems that immediately present players with a choice: time or Platinum. Defeating an RNG god is a privilege many of us have shared. Each year (five and counting) that we add to Warframe's development adds to not only game complexity, but to how Digital Extremes maintains this balance and proposition.

I'll start this post off with a picture (that we'll come back to at the end): Back in November 2016 we colour coded our Sortie Drops to better indicate rarity as seen here:

 

Here we have Rarity colour conventions to set expectations about what you'd be likely to receive when playing a given Sortie. This was an attempt to display the key value that these datamines provided: a value proposition of chance and time investment, and that's not something we want to take away. This is something we've been actively iterating on, but now we have an urgency to do it faster.

But a visual guide isn't as good as numbers; datamining provided those. That's something we lived with and at some times appreciated until the revealed contents were being hacked, sold, and added to the public build.

What happened yesterday (that was discussed on Reddit)  isn't about hiding drop rates for us. We're working on sharing these on our website in a procedural, automatic way (similar to recent Chinese laws, but universally)... but it's not about that. This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information. We sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up, never before then. We acted to stop the willful and selfish compromising of the game’s code for personal gain. How Digital Extremes decides to share its information is not up to the discretion of lone individuals.

Soon we'll have a webpage that is automated to provide drop information for those who seek it - this screenshot is just proof of concept that we've got something in the works (using real data with effective rarity % in this particular vault!).

We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s. Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions). There were a few (only one from a game I play), but clearly we have an opportunity here! We want to set a new standard of transparency with our community and give our players further insight into the processes in which they are assigned rewards.

What's next will be the damage stats you can't see (ex. Exalted Weapons) which we may rely on adding to the Wikia (however temporarily) all in the name of empowering our players who value these stats to build as detailed as they want.

Walking the road of free-to-play is something we've been doing alongside our community since day one of Warframe. Each hiccup has led to us being better developers and this is another one of those moments. There is work involved in getting this information up, but stay tuned for the soft launch which we'll announce when it's complete on our end!

Would it also be possible to see stats such as range for melee weapons eventually listed in game, and added to the wiki for new weapons for now? I believe we have also relied on data miners for these stats as well. This whole situation is reminding me how many things (not drop tables) but things such as ability or weapon stats, that we rely on the wiki for. I understand it is a temporary solution to put all this on wiki, but it seems, and I hope I am reading it correctly, that the eventual goal is to have it all listed in game. 

Drop table percentages make sense to have on the website, because that kind of back end thing is appreciated transparency by some players, but may not look as polished as the devs would look as part of the in game interface. I get that. 

But I think in terms of stuff like melee weapon range, exalted weapon stats, etc, etc. All of it should eventually be somewhere in game. I think while the wiki is an amazing resource, and has potential to be an even greater resource, any stats for a weapon or ability I have is not something I should have to tab out of the game to find out, imo. 

Thank you for this post, and for DE's continued commitment to transparency! To be honest, while some people complain, it is true that there really aren't any games I can think of that give you all of the percentages like that. However, Warframe is special in so many ways already, being an industry pioneer in many ways. I think DE could set the standard for the entire gaming world, and show everyone how transparency is really done, and how much players appreciate it! 

[Marine027]

I still think its a bad idea and quote myself:

21 hours ago, Marine027 said:

I am against such, simple reason, luck is still a big impact on this.

Even if you know something can drop somewhere adn even for 90% as dropchance, you still can have bad luck gettign the 10% ten times in a row.

This ruins the game for people because with low drop chance they might not even try, with high one they get disapointed if they simply have bad luck.

Look at some people as example with the Stalker weapons like the Hate or Despair, some rarely got the and some get those evey time, despite rarest drop technicly.

I simply keep it simple, THIS drops THAT. you farm it, done. And taht Info the Codex provides if you scan alot already, which enemy drops what, same for relics drop locations.

[OniDax]

45 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Free-to-play is done differently by each developer - and we're a developer that has basically signed ourselves up to all aspects of making free-to-play our own. When we do free to play, we build systems that immediately present players with a choice: time or Platinum. Defeating an RNG god is a privilege many of us have shared. Each year (five and counting) that we add to Warframe's development adds to not only game complexity, but to how Digital Extremes maintains this balance and proposition.

I'll start this post off with a picture (that we'll come back to at the end): Back in November 2016 we colour coded our Sortie Drops to better indicate rarity as seen here:

 

Here we have Rarity colour conventions to set expectations about what you'd be likely to receive when playing a given Sortie. This was an attempt to display the key value that these datamines provided: a value proposition of chance and time investment, and that's not something we want to take away. This is something we've been actively iterating on, but now we have an urgency to do it faster.

But a visual guide isn't as good as numbers; datamining provided those. That's something we lived with and at some times appreciated until the revealed contents were being hacked, sold, and added to the public build.

What happened yesterday (that was discussed on Reddit)  isn't about hiding drop rates for us. We're working on sharing these on our website in a procedural, automatic way (similar to recent Chinese laws, but universally)... but it's not about that. This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information. We sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up, never before then. We acted to stop the willful and selfish compromising of the game’s code for personal gain. How Digital Extremes decides to share its information is not up to the discretion of lone individuals.

Soon we'll have a webpage that is automated to provide drop information for those who seek it - this screenshot is just proof of concept that we've got something in the works (using real data with effective rarity % in this particular vault!).

We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s. Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions). There were a few (only one from a game I play), but clearly we have an opportunity here! We want to set a new standard of transparency with our community and give our players further insight into the processes in which they are assigned rewards.

What's next will be the damage stats you can't see (ex. Exalted Weapons) which we may rely on adding to the Wikia (however temporarily) all in the name of empowering our players who value these stats to build as detailed as they want.

Walking the road of free-to-play is something we've been doing alongside our community since day one of Warframe. Each hiccup has led to us being better developers and this is another one of those moments. There is work involved in getting this information up, but stay tuned for the soft launch which we'll announce when it's complete on our end!

Thank you for actually talking about this. Even though I very often disagree with DE's approach to things (I still think we need a Warframe that prizes gameplay over rewards, and that the way to do that is to have a standard XP progression system and to draw inspiration from open world games), one of the things I love about DE is that you all do talk to the community more than any other developer I've seen. So thank you for that.

Could this wiki provide other basic information on the game as well? I understand the wiki exists, but it'd be especially great for new players to have an official, streamlined website with information on the game, tips, etc.

Edited June 22, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[InDueTime-EN-]

YES!  Thanks DE and the hard working people there. Let's hope these things reflect on your other game too. 

[yingji]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

You know, I would be willing to assist you, but you people seem to be against me in this... Additionally, I could provide a report I wrote about Warframe Random Number Generation a long time ago, if that would assist you in your explanation of your Warframe Random Number Generation mechanics.

This is a nice gesture but with respect to all imo it's the wrong way around. They should be offering to work for you.

[weaselslider]

i would like to see a mode... that is manually turned on in the settings.... to show the actual percentage of drops of items next to every item, and to show a list of percentage drops of the items that a mission drops

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

I still think its a bad idea and quote myself:

 

I think the idea only works if you can only find it on the website, if it takes a little effort to find, and isn't obviously pointed to in game. I think in this case, color coded drop tables in game is nice, but actual percentages only being on the official website somewhere makes sense. The really nerdy player who wants to know can figure it all out, and the average player won't even know, and it won't break their immersion, or make it feel too mathy. 

[Evers]

I have said this on reddit and I will say it here again. The Datamined values were the ones you could trust since they were extracted from the Gamefiles. Mistakes have been made before, sure some were easy to detect for the Players like items beeing in a different rotaion then what was said in the Patchnotes but some would have been impossible to detect without Datamining like the Chesa Kubrow not hatching from farmed eggs and only hatching from eggs purchased with Plat. The Issue is how can we be sure that the Values provided Ingame are correct? With Datamining around it would have been easy to check if the numbers match or if a mistake was made or a wrong value was added by mistake. Without it? That might just stay in the Game forever and there is no way of checking it.

I also suggested this on Reddit, allow Void_Glitch to continue to publish the Information on Droptables and Dropchances and the stuff that matters but don't allow him to publish anything else. You could aswell check the Information he is going to publish to see if there is something in there that you do not want to get published, im sure he would agree to that.

It just leaves a weird taste that Datamining gets prosecuted suddenly after years (and because of something completly unrelated) and you announce that you will publish the dropchances Ingame (or on a seperate website) and the one thing that could find errors in this is not around anymore.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Evers

[Senguash]

It's very good to hear that the problem is going to be tackled at its root, rather than treating the symptoms.

Are there any longterm plans of integrating information like the droprates and exalted weapon stats ingame? Like in the codex and ability descriptions.

The website sound like a good solution, but not a final solution.

[Cazzzz]

My only problem with this whole situation is this: Why would we have to datamine if a) The released stuff had just come fully disclosed, instead of waiting till now to give us that info via the game and b) If unreleased content is getting datamined, why is it on our clients anyhow, unready and unfinished? There would be no reason outside of malicious purpose to datamine in the first place had both of these things been addressed a bit sooner than '5 years' later.

[Nezha_Rose]

Datamines and hacking are not the same thing. If you wanna get rid of datamines, atleast have honor and flat out say "we do not approve of our suprises being spoiled." 

I get the feeling all you at DE already know this.

[Melos-mevim]

your still pegging the blame for those hacks on the wrong person.

 

I love the game you guys make and over all think your pretty good devs but lately you guys have had way way to much of a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset and will prosecute a person you think may of done wrong based on weak evidence before you ever bother to actually look in to the manner as a whole. This kind of mindset should never be encouraged ever, and every time you go after the wrong person you guys make yourselves look worse and worse and paint an image of incompetence. Please don't do that, think before you take action, we know you are better than a lot of these petty moves you been making as of late. 

 

Also side note, if you guys are so bloody bothered by leaks and hacks here is a novel idea don't release it in the files of the public build, keep that stuff on Dev build only, people can't mine or hack what isn't there, you guys are just as responsible for these occurrences as the people who actually hack the game (once more not Void_Glitch) because you leave that stuff in the files.You need to recognize where you screwed up and fix it, then investigate who is the true culprits of the hacks and THEN go after them after you have definitive evidence 

[(XBOX)Sacrfishal Lamb]

Please for the love of God, don't limit the information about drop rates, etc to a website. Put it in the Codex where it belongs. You shouldn't need to have to multi-task a laptop/phone/ipad and playing a game at the same time. The game itself should be the depository for whatever information you want players to know (game mechanics).

[Rage_Inducer]

YES, thank you, this removes the need for datamines and stops potential spoilers and exploits.

My request is to add all the ability weapon stats in there as well (Exalted Blade, Artemis Bow, Dex Pixia, etc) All these are handy when modding our weapons for those abilities.

Also the actual numerical values of riven dispositions as well as max and min possible values per stat, all is handy when min-maxing our gear.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Rage_Inducer

[(PSN)iBoiz]

I agree with others here, it looks like you are blaming data miners like Void for the hacks instead of blaming actual hackers.

[Tesseract7777]

6 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

your still pegging the blame for those hacks on the wrong person.

 

I love the game you guys make and over all think your pretty good devs but lately you guys have had way way to much of a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset and will prosecute a person you think may of done wrong based on weak evidence before you ever bother to actually look in to the manner as a whole. This kind of mindset should never be encouraged ever, and every time you go after the wrong person you guys make yourselves look worse and worse and paint an image of incompetence. Please don't do that, think before you take action, we know you are better than a lot of these petty moves you been making as of late. 

 

Also side note, if you guys are so bloody bothered by leaks and hacks here is a novel idea don't release it in the files of the public build, keep that stuff on Dev build only, people can't mine or hack what isn't there, you guys are just as responsible for these occurrences as the people who actually hack the game (once more not Void_Glitch) because you leave that stuff in the files.You need to recognize where you screwed up and fix it, then investigate who is the true culprits of the hacks and THEN go after them after you have definitive evidence 

A couple things here though: 

1) From what I have understood, they never blamed void_glitch directly for the hacks, or said they did them. Rather, they said that info he posted online made it easy for hackers to reverse engineer things and hack the game, getting themselves things like Excalibur Umbra and Primed Streamline. 

2) You don't realize how the coding works, some of those files are put in early to prep for future updates. If they don't post those files early, those updates would take a lot longer to ship out to you. You don't realize the consequences of what you ask, you are asking for super long download times for every update. They have a right to have surprises. Void_glitch chose to publish languages, which even he admits was excessive on Reddit, and has made it easy for spoilers to proliferate. What you are saying "just don't put it in the files" actually doesn't make sense. They need to to prep for updates, and the files in languages are hard to hide, hence stuff constantly getting spoiled by dataminers. 

void_glitch never needed to publish any of that to show you the drop tables and chances, but he did. And the constant spoilers, and the fact others were able to use the info to hack, made them act. Void was not accused of hacking as far as I know... he was simply told to stop because his information was spoiling things and allowing others to do so. 

It is not unreasonable for a company to protect the safety of their products code, or their future spoilers. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[PookieNumnums]

Long live the glitch~! 

 

Because of that person many tenno were able to farm relics from places that didnt make them want to commit sudoku.

 

However, i agree.. abuse is abuse. Transparency all along could have prevented some of it, while other stuff certainly not. But, I will say, perhaps adding stuff into the game early isnt the best idea. Perhaps making players suffer the hand of extreme download time would have been safer. 

 

IF umbra is (what was teased) still what it was said to be in the 1.0 version of the war within script... i think it will a major let down as many players that have spent a year or longer in wf already know what that was. 

 

 

Lastly, 

 

Perhaps you dudes and dudettes should have just put primed streamline in the game already. FR FR.

 

 

[Wevi]

35 minutes ago, KYLoooo said:

They really should show us the real number for riven disposition.

This.