Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

[green94337]

1 minute ago, Melos-mevim said:

Also side note, if you guys are so bloody bothered by leaks and hacks here is a novel idea don't release it in the files of the public build, keep that stuff on Dev build only, people can't mine or hack what isn't there, you guys are just as responsible for these occurrences as the people who actually hack the game (once more not Void_Glitch) because you leave that stuff in the files.You need to recognize where you screwed up and fix it, then investigate who is the true culprits of the hacks and THEN go after them after you have definitive evidence 

 

DE is responding reflexively. I see them as being in a bit of a panic and rushing to create a solution to a problem. I hope that in time, they will correct this situation with unfinished content being somehow left in final builds. Maybe, after TennoCon, they will undertake the massive idea of putting all of the drop tables in the game openly. Give them time. They are doing something extraordinary by even suggesting the idea that they might release those raw percentages at all.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, PookieNumnums said:

 

Perhaps you dudes and dudettes should have just put primed streamline in the game already. FR FR.

 

 

Maybe Sheldon should never have done something so unprofessional as to put it in the files "just to troll", seriously. I respect DE as a company overall, but what are we grade schoolers? 

[Melos-mevim]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

A couple things here though: 

1) From what I have understood, they never blamed void_glitch directly for the hacks, or said they did them. Rather, they said that info he posted online made it easy for hackers to reverse engineer things and hack the game, getting themselves things like Excalibur Umbra and Primed Streamline. 

2) You don't realize how the coding works, some of those files are put in early to prep for future updates. If they don't post those files early, those updates would take a lot longer to ship out to you. They have a right to have surprises. Void_glitch chose to publish languages, which even he admits was excessive on Reddit, and has made it easy for spoilers to proliferate. What you are saying "just don't put it in the files" actually doesn't make sense. They need to to prep for updates, and the files in languages are hard to hide, hence stuff constantly getting spoiled by dataminers. 

void_glitch never needed to publish any of that to show you the drop tables and chances, but he did. And the constant spoilers, and the fact others were able to use the info to hack, made them act. Void was not accused of hacking as far as I know... he was simply told to stop because his information was spoiling things and allowing others to do so. 

It is not unreasonable for a company to protect the safety of their products code, or their future spoilers. 

To my knowledge he actually never dug up that info it was other data miners that did (he just happens to be the most notable one as he is the most active) even if he did knowing an item exists would not give a hacker the exact knowledge of how to obtain it, data mining and hacking are 2 separate things all together. And the legal letter directed at him was only because of the Primed streamline and Umbra hacks

 

as for making updates smoother I understand the need for ticking some stuff in, but they don't need to do it for things that wont be out for another good 6 months like they often do, and in the case of Primed streamline and Umbra they don't need to be there at all, Primed streamline is by DE's own admission data miner bait, soon as it was announced that it was more or less a prank they could and should of pulled it from the files. Same goes for Umbra they have known for a long while that his release has been a far ways off, they tell us that every time we ask, so there is no bloody reason for them to have him in the files for 2 bloody years if they had no intention on releasing him./

 

Things like primes and new frames on the horizon I can understand being uploaded a bit earlier than their release. But things that will never get released or are several months to a year off don't belong in the files and the excuse of "a faster easier release" does not work here

[Krion112]

From where I'm standing, there's no logical reason (however, there could be a technical one, I don't know Warframe's code) to also have this information be present in the game itself. Also, there are other numbers the game doesn't share, and I hope to see those as well.

 

3 minutes ago, green94337 said:

DE is responding reflexively. I see them as being in a bit of a panic and rushing to create a solution to a problem. I hope that in time, they will correct this situation with unfinished content being somehow left in final builds. Maybe, after TennoCon, they will undertake the massive idea of putting all of the drop tables in the game openly. Give them time. They are doing something extraordinary by even suggesting the idea that they might release those raw percentages at all.

DE does not have a track record of adding something, and then reliably expanding on that something. If they're going to do something right, they're going to have to do it in the first go, because, otherwise, previous cases demonstrate DE is going to forget all about it shortly after its implementation.

[green94337]

I do think that after they have recovered and gotten their ducks all lined up in that puddle teaser that they should release Void from whatever they tied him up with, so that when they release the drop rates, either in the game or on a site, he can provide an assuring voice that they are accurate, while not releasing any actual data.

[Melos-mevim]

5 minutes ago, green94337 said:

DE is responding reflexively. I see them as being in a bit of a panic and rushing to create a solution to a problem. I hope that in time, they will correct this situation with unfinished content being somehow left in final builds. Maybe, after TennoCon, they will undertake the massive idea of putting all of the drop tables in the game openly. Give them time. They are doing something extraordinary by even suggesting the idea that they might release those raw percentages at all.

Trust me I understand but these knee jerk reactions cause more problems than they solve, they create situations where iti si easy to paint DE as the bad guy and it calls in to question the faith we have for them as a company and the respect they have for their players.

 

I said it earlier I like DE I like their game but I do not approve of their alarming trend of "shoot first ask questions never" that gets innocent unrelated people caught in the crossfire and hurt the player base as a whole. I mention this not cause I want to Witch hunt DE I want to see them improve and continue being the awesome Devs I come to see them &#! over the years.

[PookieNumnums]

7 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Maybe Sheldon should never have done something so unprofessional as to put it in the files "just to troll", seriously. I respect DE as a company overall, but what are we grade schoolers? 

still want primed streamline tho.

 

< n <

[green94337]

3 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

Trust me I understand but these knee jerk reactions cause more problems than they solve, they create situations where iti si easy to paint DE as the bad guy and it calls in to question the faith we have for them as a company and the respect they have for their players.

 

I said it earlier I like DE I like their game but I do not approve of their alarming trend of "shoot first ask questions never" that gets innocent unrelated people caught in the crossfire and hurt the player base as a whole. I mention this not cause I want to Witch hunt DE I want to see them improve and continue being the awesome Devs I come to see them &amp;#&#33; over the years.

Let's face it, this sort of problem only comes about once in a long, long while. Give them time. They are reacting aggressively, yes. But so would you.

We all need to have mercy on them.

Edited June 22, 2017 by green94337
added stuff

[Melos-mevim]

Just now, green94337 said:

Let's face it, this sort of problem only comes about once in a long, long while. Give them time. They are reacting aggressively, yes. But so would you.

this is only one in a series of recent knee jerk reactions, and their outward treatment of their loyal fans has been getting more and more sour. 

 

And personally no I wouldn't react the same way, the way I see it is never appropriate to do what they did, there are better ways to handle it 

[(PSN)fullblast35]

how about redoing codex and integrating drop tables in it?  I like the codex.

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

You mean doing what they should have done from the beginning? I see nothing extraordinary there other than it being extraordinarily STUPID we had to rely on datamining for that info.

Reb does have a point though. What we are asking for may be perfectly reasonable but it is hardly an industry standard. Only a handful of games give you full drop table chances and none are big names. People act like they are entitled to this, but while it would be great to have, it would actually make it an exception among online games. Your attitude is totally unwarranted.

[Gero141]

Awesome work. I know this should have been done a while ago but it's all good. I suggest you can contact the data miner and make him work as a like weapons and drop stats collector for releasing it into the game in the future to help players out. He can also do something he loves and you can release the stats whenever you like to. Both sides happy. 

[Lalaef]

Providing exact percentages and numbers would be better, anyways. 

Spoiler

But we all know that you guys just don't want dataminers to ruin the surprise, like the last time, a year ago.

 

[Pyus]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops?

I am not sure about developer insight since I have not played WoW since 2005, but WoW head is my first thought for any data querytool that can pull for sql and display in html. There might even been an opensource WoW-Head-equse solution, or a Drupal plugin that could be run using the same CME as these forums. 

 

As for the datamining business, Patch notes do not specifically state the change in drop rates when new/old items are included/removed. Saying things like "we've doubled the drop rate on Mutagen Samples" means little if I do not know what the drop rate was before. if it was .0000001% and it is now .00000002%, well big deal it's still equivolent to having RNGesus preform a root canal on you while amp'd up on ecstasy.  

[Miser_able]

Well this is certainly a step in the right direction. Thank you. And thanks for not just shoving everything into a closet somewhere and pretending it doesn't exist. This is why, Imo, DE is the best developer. Keep up the good work. 

[DawnFalcon]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We acted to stop the willful and selfish compromising of the game’s code for personal gain. How Digital Extremes decides to share its information is not up to the discretion of lone individuals.

Then, certainly, the legal risk of macroing weapons fire or using a discord overlay is not one I can reasonably take. They are also 100% based on your tolerance, and I have no intent of getting legal letters. Far riskier, indeed, as they're actually doing things which change my gameplay experience. If stopping using them NOW isn't sufficient, well, sorry I guess.

(Pulling out the lawyers vs individuals can't be put back into it's box)

Edited June 22, 2017 by DawnFalcon

[DawnFalcon]

23 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Reb does have a point though. What we are asking for may be perfectly reasonable but it is hardly an industry standard. Only a handful of games give you full drop table chances and none are big names. People act like they are entitled to this, but while it would be great to have, it would actually make it an exception among online games. Your attitude is totally unwarranted.

They're not? Let's start with World of Warcraft...

wowhead.com, y'know?

In fact, they allow Lua modding.

 

And those two things have in fact been critical to their success!

[green94337]

31 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Reb does have a point though. What we are asking for may be perfectly reasonable but it is hardly an industry standard. Only a handful of games give you full drop table chances and none are big names. People act like they are entitled to this, but while it would be great to have, it would actually make it an exception among online games. Your attitude is totally unwarranted.

Case in point. Thx Tess.

[DawnFalcon]

1 hour ago, pauli133 said:

My suggestion/request: it's 2017, and I know that the impulse will likely be to make the presentation of data as slick as possible. It is my hope that whatever data is presented will also be made available in a simple text format, for those of use who tend to process it for manipulation elsewhere (the wiki, a spreadsheet, etc). I hate having to key data that I could be copying-and-pasting instead.

How about standard XML? Which you can then process via lots of different means.

(Mediawiki can to some degree, even, although sure it's not a proper structured wiki - think things like auto-generated catagories)

[yingji]

As a fan of Warframe I have to say it, these suggested improvements to the game are a small step in the right direction but far less than we've been used to in a long time.

[DawnFalcon]

4 minutes ago, yingji said:

As a fan of Warframe I have to say it, these suggested improvements to the game are a small step in the right direction but far less than we've been used to in a long time.

And for that matter unless they're auto-generated they won't catch *errors*. Which has been an issue.

[Tesseract7777]

26 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

They're not? Let's start with World of Warcraft...

wowhead.com, y'know?

In fact, they allow Lua modding.

 

And those two things have in fact been critical to their success!

Wowhead.com is not in game, lol. It's a third party website. What are you even on about? 

[yingji]

I love playing WoWHEAD it's my favorite DE quest.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, DawnFalcon said:

Void_Glitch's site was not in game. It was hosted on github. The data was usually discussed on Reddit.

What ARE you even on about? (I can be "snarky" as well, so yea)

You are missing the point so hard it's like you just skimmed the post of mine you originally quoted, or didn't read it at all. 

The point is that people are acting like they are entitled to have DE publish all the exact drop rate percentages IN GAME, and there really aren't any big titles, and hardly any titles at all period, that do that. That publish them in game.

You responded with a total non-sequitur that I was wrong because "wow allows them to be published on a third party website", which if you can stop being snarky for five seconds, is totally different from being published in game, or even being published on the companies official website.

I shouldn't have to re-explain this, it was very clear in my original post that you quoted, but there you go, so yea. 

[BaronKreight]

Kinda aggressive hah? Well datamining is not something unique in video games. People have been doing it, releasing info about unreleased content. One of the latest examples. Total War: Warhammer DLC content. It was datamined well before the actual release. Haven't heard them making instructive posts about it and updating their terms and conditions. So what? You wanna hide it - hide it better. No need to go on offensive and blame people for datamining. Jesus Christ, what a fuss.