[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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After reading multiple threads and finally seeing this one, I am thuroughly disappointed as to how this was handled. I hope we get some sort of repository in the future or an in game version of this idea because it is helpful as stated multiple times in multiple threads. Worst case scenario is we as players get censored and blinded from actual drop rates and different things. 

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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This whole topic gives me heartache. I understand the necessity of DE wanting to protect their assets. But void_glitch had nothing to do with the hacking and leak of umbra excal and prime streamline. If he actually fought DE on this and took them to terms, he would likely win the case as the data he is mining is public domain in the sense that it is accessible to anyone and the terminology that is being used against him is technically incorrect. He isn't hacking any servers or stepping in territory that is deemed forbidden, he is accessing data that was downloaded to him, maybe unorthodox, but completely different than hacking.

I don't know, I am trying to be optimistic of DE's promises of transparency, but the fact that they are waiting until AFTER a C&D they produced to do this screams PR nightmare on their own behalf. They did not handle this ideally in my opinion and they will suffer from it.

 

That is my cynical POV, and hopefully I am wrong. But this definitely leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

EDIT: For whatever reason, this post was hidden by a mod or staff. I have contacted an admin to inquire about it and he corrected the issue by unhiding this post for me and apologized for any confusion caused. Fellow Tenno, if you are noticing your posts being deleted in this thread, I encourage you to contact a staff member and bring it to their attention. I am not sure if this is something warranted by DE as a whole or if a few individuals are taking it upon themselves to hide posts. Transparency and communication are arguably the most important for our community and DE themselves.

Edited by Warden3
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17 minutes ago, Warden3 said:

This whole topic gives me heartache. I understand the necessity of DE wanting to protect their assets. But void_glitch had nothing to do with the hacking and leak of umbra excal and prime streamline. If he actually fought DE on this and took them to terms, he would likely win the case as the data he is mining is public domain in the sense that it is accessible to anyone and the terminology that is being used against him is technically incorrect. He isn't hacking any servers or stepping in territory that is deemed forbidden, he is accessing data that was downloaded to him, maybe unorthodox, but completely different than hacking.

I don't know, I am trying to be optimistic of DE's promises of transparency, but the fact that they are waiting until AFTER a C&D they produced to do this screams PR nightmare on their own behalf. They did not handle this ideally in my opinion and they will suffer from it.

 

That is my narcissistic POV, and hopefully I am wrong. But this definitely leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Saving face during a PR nightmare is what DE has done in the past. They don't know how to be open about things, and they always come out with big statements after there's some big PR nightmare. Umbra, China selling Lato Prime and Skana Prime, Vacuum rework, this datamining situation - all PR nightmares that they had to frantically respond to because of how poorly they handled a situation, and usually because of a lack of communication, lack of transparency, or because they were ignoring the community. And, unfortunately, for each situation, they only responded once players got upset and threatened to leave the game and withhold money from them.

During the Vacuum fiasco, DE came out and said that they made their final decisions based on rational, calm arguments and not based on the angry outcries. I challenged them on that, and said that they responded to the anger, as they'd done in the past. They pushed back on that. Yet here we are, once again, in another mini-crisis not because of some calm feedback or because DE decided out of the blue to talk about transparency, not even because of their having a problem with the datamining issue, but because the community got angry.

Unfortunately, DE only knows how to deal with their shortcomings after the community brings out the pitchforks. If the community hadn't gotten angry, DE would never even be open to openly publishing drop rate information. And that says a whole lot about their motives and how they view the community, because we've literally been asking for this for years. That really is an indicator that they really aren't publishing the drop tables because they care about transparency, but because they're afraid of the community reaction if they don't publish the drop tables. That has to change.

Edited by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
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19 hours ago, UvBenServed said:

They probably never put it in BECAUSE datamining existed. Putting all that data into the game itself would have been an...unnecessary use of time and resources. Especially since I doubt it would be easy to put all that data into the game without resulting in a lot of clutter and/or overwhelming newer players. Datamining was a way to allow the playerbase to know what they need to know about the game while DE focused on other things. But a lot about the game has been revealed before they were ready to reveal it. DE likely saw it as a "necessary evil" so to speak. One that (it seems) they now think is more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not gonna say what DE should/shouldn't have done. It's always easy to say those sorts of things in hindsight. But I know jack about the coding/legal matters here, so my opinion on shoulda/coulda/woulda is pretty much worthless. All I'll say is I hope this site is as accurate and in depth as possible. I don't care how messy it looks, as long as I can find all the information I need to find. Also I know that they're busy with the Harrow update and preparing for Tennocon, but this is kinda important, so the sooner the better.

Edit:

Just to clarify, I'm aware datamining didn't always exist. It's something that DE probably never thought was necessary. But once it happened, it became apparent how valuable a resource it could be. That's my theory at least, haven't been around long enough to really know for sure.

Then shouldn't DE be thanking Void_Glitch for doing the work for them instead of handing him a C&D warning like some (badwords)? Wouldn't it have been more cool of them to just tap Void_Glitch on the shoulder and say, "Hey, you've done good, kid. We'll take it from here." But nope. They thought contacting their lawyers and threatening him was the right choice. Then when the community backlash came (which should have been completely apparent that it would happen if DE wasn't out of touch) they react by saying, "Hey we've been working on being completely transparent with our game's stats all along! (Psst not really, we're only doing this as a PR move and we can lie about those percentages later down the line, as anyone that dares datamine our game to check if we're actually being honest, we'll sick our lawyers at them.)"

DE has been all about marketing lately over polishing their game. They've became the type of company that shunned Dark Sector in the first place.

God, this is even worse and more disappointing than when they let IgnusDei go.

Btw, holy crap are some of the new drop rates ridiculously low. I actually haven't cared to look at drop rates recently because of how dishearteningly low they can be. The last time I checked, the lowest drop rate was 0.67%, but now I see percentages as low as 0.0201%.

Edited by SicSlaver
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6 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:


@(PS4)VoiD_Glitch if you want a personal advice: Be a bit more picky with what you share (it's one thing to show the RNG chances, another one to rip a Prime model, another one to rip a new character from a quest and another one to leak a script, even if it's added beforehand :P), and if you have a suspicion of what and how that Umbra/Streamline stuff happened, be smart and make sure that doesn't happen again by either, pointing at the flaw or not sharing it. Again, I know you yourself have not done anything with bad intentions, nor are directly responsible of that, but are you sure, 100%, that you undirectly have not contributed somehow to it? That's where I want to go.

So I'm not going to be pointing fingers really here. DE did the right thing, VoiD was doing the right thing (although maybe not carefully enough) and hopefully this situation serves for something useful for once.

My only goal was to upload any information that I could retrieve in a readable and useful format. It was an effort to assist the community. That was my highest priority. All Digital Extremes had to do was ask me to take something down (it seems like they specifically wanted Languages.bin down), prior to a legal letter, and it could have been as simple as that. I do not appreciate being the involved in a legal matter that should not even involve me in the first place.

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@(PS4)VoiD_Glitch

 

Whatever happens. I"m glad you've been able to enlighten the rest of us. I just don't want bad things to happen to you. I don't want bad things to happen to DE, but collectivly DE is in a better position than some rando highschooler that took a liking to poking about game files.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

My only goal was to upload any information that I could retrieve in a readable and useful format. It was an effort to assist the community. That was my highest priority. All Digital Extremes had to do was ask me to take something down (it seems like they specifically wanted Languages.bin down), prior to a legal letter, and it could have been as simple as that. I do not appreciate being involved in a legal matter that should not even involve me in the first place.

I totally understand your frustration, and that of others, and I feel like even with legal involved, it could have been handled better. But I have been wondering, considering you are a minor as far as I understand, would it have been legally appropriate for them to have someone who isn't from legal messaging you about it? I feel like they could have had legal word it nicer and be more friendly about it, it sounds like the letter sent to you was rather harsh. 

But I am wondering now, after someone mentioned it, would it really have been appropriate for them to just have a random member of staff contact you? I'm not saying I know for sure, I'm just asking the question. I have wondered if part of why they did this is because they didn't feel legally comfortable reaching out to a kid as just one of the devs and saying "hey, can you stop doing that?". 

I mean, it sounds like you would have gladly just said "sure", and I do agree it sounds like they could have been nicer even with legal involved, but I am starting to wonder about that. 

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I seem to only understand that you guys are doing what you think is best for Your game while ignoring your already proved lack of continuity and flaws in these matters.

 

Seems clear, we have no choice but to eat it up and move on. Show is over boys and girls, go back to your seats and wait for Harrow by July 6 before tennocon.

 

 

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8 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Free-to-play is done differently by each developer - and we're a developer that has basically signed ourselves up to all aspects of making free-to-play our own. When we do free to play, we build systems that immediately present players with a choice: time or Platinum. Defeating an RNG god is a privilege many of us have shared. Each year (five and counting) that we add to Warframe's development adds to not only game complexity, but to how Digital Extremes maintains this balance and proposition.

I'll start this post off with a picture (that we'll come back to at the end): Back in November 2016 we colour coded our Sortie Drops to better indicate rarity as seen here:

smI9iRtfbACqGZvNZ629ER6w70evvzEP7srnz8AG


 

Here we have Rarity colour conventions to set expectations about what you'd be likely to receive when playing a given Sortie. This was an attempt to display the key value that these datamines provided: a value proposition of chance and time investment, and that's not something we want to take away. This is something we've been actively iterating on, but now we have an urgency to do it faster.

But a visual guide isn't as good as numbers; datamining provided those. That's something we lived with and at some times appreciated until the revealed contents were being hacked, sold, and added to the public build.

What happened yesterday (that was discussed on Reddit)  isn't about hiding drop rates for us. We're working on sharing these on our website in a procedural, automatic way (similar to recent Chinese laws, but universally)... but it's not about that. This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information. We sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up, never before then. We acted to stop the willful and selfish compromising of the game’s code for personal gain. How Digital Extremes decides to share its information is not up to the discretion of lone individuals.

Soon we'll have a webpage that is automated to provide drop information for those who seek it - this screenshot is just proof of concept that we've got something in the works (using real data with effective rarity % in this particular vault!).

53USo3gnQupcjeFKZ4IUDppgsmQHWWBVY8-bjbqB

We asked you who does it best so we could figure out a quick way (since the urgency is on) to reflect a currently appreciated method of developers giving %'s. Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions). There were a few (only one from a game I play), but clearly we have an opportunity here! We want to set a new standard of transparency with our community and give our players further insight into the processes in which they are assigned rewards.

What's next will be the damage stats you can't see (ex. Exalted Weapons) which we may rely on adding to the Wikia (however temporarily) all in the name of empowering our players who value these stats to build as detailed as they want.

Walking the road of free-to-play is something we've been doing alongside our community since day one of Warframe. Each hiccup has led to us being better developers and this is another one of those moments. There is work involved in getting this information up, but stay tuned for the soft launch which we'll announce when it's complete on our end!

You are of course in your right to defend your IP and its Data.

However the way it was handled from the start with regards to the current situation with void_glitch was nothing short of a text book example of a PR catastrophe.

This post from you as a community manager and representative from Digital Extreme is a very smart move.

Not only are you showing your position in a clear and upfront way, you are also showing that you can (hopefully) work with your community rather then against it.

Now regarding hard data from things like drop rates and mechanical formulas i am sorry to say that you have a long way to go. But you are not alone in this as a developer. Almost no developers in the gaming industry have worked that out since the 80s.

But for the sake of the argument lets speak clearly here for once.

Color coding and graphical GUI elements will never ever stand as an representative UI element instead of real percentages.

your current color scheme itself for mod drops is deeply flawed where common bronze mods can often be much harder to get to drop then gold rare mods. Due to how enemy spawns and drops tables for certain mods are handled.

your graph GUI element for drop rates on relics is a type example of badly shown data.

the real drop chances for the rare part of an relic is 2% as intact, 4% as exceptional 6% as flawless and 10% as Radiant (As per the Wiki)

That is clear and concise data the graphical GUI representation you use in game however goes from a sliver to fill half the bar.

that is a bad representation on how the odds really are.

So that is one example to show you why people used data miners data to even play your game.

Another example is how you have deeply biased drop tables for certain enemies that frustrate your player base to no end.

The prime example here would be the stalker.

dread drops nearly all the time , which is the reason i have around 21 of them. despair and hate both got a very low drop rate. Now i have played for long enough to have them all.

But ask around the player base and your find many people that are still hunting for that despair or that hate and more or less have told themselves that those drops are a mere myth at this point.

Now i know you have a massive database to handle and stuff like this happens all the time. But a more unbiased drop table in this example would actually be a win win situation for you at Digital Extremes.

Not only would a drop tables that has its Percentages follow a median be seen as more fair from a pure mathematical standpoint it would also make the playerbase feel that the drop rates are fair.

Now you mentioned a wish from your part to be given examples of how this has been handled in a good way by other companies.

If so i would recommend you to contact Blizzard and see how they handled for example WOWhead.

For that matter you could also ask them how the debate went with showing basic information on items in diablo 3 vs the extended information you can turn on in settings.

As it stands your information ingame on very basic stuff is severly lacking.

you have no reach displayed on your melee weapons.

No information how such basic things like saryns spores interaction with toxin damage nor mags magnetize interaction with projectile weapons vs hitscan.

You have not even listed the very unintuative formula for shotgun status in the game.

We had to run several months of tests all over the community to even find out the basics on how these things work.

This post by you Rebecca is a way forward and i hope you as a gaming company take in all the feedback you will receive due to this post and actually make practical use of it. 

 

 

 

Edited by GhostLacuna
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4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I totally understand your frustration, and that of others, and I feel like even with legal involved, it could have been handled better. But I have been wondering, considering you are a minor as far as I understand, would it have been legally appropriate for them to have someone who isn't from legal messaging you about it? I feel like they could have had legal word it nicer and be more friendly about it, it sounds like the letter sent to you was rather harsh. 

But I am wondering now, after someone mentioned it, would it really have been appropriate for them to just have a random member of staff contact you? I'm not saying I know for sure, I'm just asking the question. I have wondered if part of why they did this is because they didn't feel legally comfortable reaching out to a kid as just one of the devs and saying "hey, can you stop doing that?". 

I mean, it sounds like you would have gladly just said "sure", and I do agree it sounds like they could have been nicer even with legal involved, but I am starting to wonder about that. 

what world would a legal letter be more comfortable than a simple message.........

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Owning a loaded gun does not make you a murderer, it is the act of using a gun

Marking cards do not make you a Cheater, it is the act of using the marked cards that make you a cheater

Posting a sign saying "Look there is Primed streamline!" does not make the poster guilty when someone grabs primed streamline.

Lawyers are heavy handed, they love throwing a bunch of laws at someone and hoping a few stick, or at least scare them off.  it is a sad world we live in where the common law abiding citizen is restricted legally because they cannot afford a lawyer.

Quote

"In one respect at least the Martians are a happy people, they have no lawyers"- Edgar Rice Burroughs,

 

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Exalted weapons would be nice to see, things like Mutalist Quanta alt fire would be even nicer to see. I imagine a lot of things are easy to fall through the cracks, but pretty much anything that does something that isn't perfectly documented in game needs to be perfectly documented somewhere else if we're to stop relying on datamines.

That said, I'm happy to see the intent to handle giving the players more information instead of strictly taking it away.

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People are so demanding numbers those day, without realizing... It doesn't bring anything to the game.

Wow, now you'll know the "Rare drop" is a "9.1% chance drop". What will you do with that information ? Literally nothing.

I really hope dataminers will be somehow banned from the game, punished via lawsuits or whatever. Those guys are making money on stuff that ruins the game for everyone that wish to play the game normally.

I don't know about the full context but I'm not sure I wanted to hear about "Primed Streamline". Another discovery wasted, after Umbra and everything.

You know why I loved Second Dream ? Because I didn't know what to expect. You know why I loved Interstellar ? Because I didn't know what to expect. Why do everyone want everything to be leaked/shown before being delivered now ? Do you really enjoy seeing stuff you already knew about via leaked cinematics, leaked skins or whatever ? I'm sure you don't. You love those bland experiences where you're just going through stuff you know about and you already saw anyway.

 

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it's moving forwards rather than sitting on your hands which is a start, and we'll see if it's as complete as it needs to be.
an exterior source is only a small improvement, though. it's something, but the information should also be presented in the actual game too. a sort of "if you're going to take a step you might as well complete the race" type of thing.

it's also important to note that 3rd party Datamining has been a crucial component for the Community in the past on a few occasions, to be able to call out the game on legitimately bad numbers, that otherwise the Community would get brushed off about because they wouldn't be able to prove things they know.
i.e. there have been some numbers that were extremely unfair to Players as a whole, as well as numbers that have been unintentionally bad. without a 3rd party source for data, how are those situations going to be prevented, or resolved if they do occur, in the future?


The game has had some issues with Lying by Omission of some sorts of important information for Players to know what they're doing in the game for a long time - things that are important to just play the game. it's stuff that Players should be informed on, and part of why so many people have that feeling that it's astounding this game retains any Players at all, when the New Player Experience is still a 'read the wiki for a couple days' matter to understand the important facets that are needed to play the game.

 

Edit:
thanks for removing some facts and even some opinions from my post, that's a 'good' way to handle the situation.
very 'professional'.
i didn't know this was the League of Legends Forum - i thought Warframe was more mature than that.

Edited by taiiat
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Deeply disappointed in the way this situation has been handled by DE up to this point.

I think it can still be made right, but to see a decision like this come at such a time leaves me hanging my head.

I'm not happy to fall into direct disagreement with DE on a topic like this, but the weight of evidence presents a clear path. It is only right that I support the freedom to datamine as it was being exercised by @(PS4)VoiD_Glitch

It's not exactly accurate for DE to suggest that they were in any way being proactive about the addition of rarity information like 'colored rarity' and the like, considering that these changes were implemented only after copious player feedback. With respect to the hard-working people at DE, the chronology just doesn't support it.

This whole chain of events has come out looking like a plan that was... "imperfectly conceived and executed" on multiple levels, and I think the only way for DE to get ahead of the boulder would be to concede the point of datamining entirely for the immediate future. Once that has been done, a functional compromise stands a much better chance of happening.

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How I see this is DE wants people to learn from experience also datamining does ruin things for people there is a reason why people start losing hype when it takes awhile for those things to release if they don't know about it then the content would be released and some people would be really shocked and hyped if you don't understand the chances of something then ask other players that have had experience, region chat probably wasn't invented as a place where people just joke around and if that's the case we need a channel for helping overall. DE made warframe not you.

Edited by Slayer116
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I'm deeply disappointed as well.

I feel as though DE should have given VoiD a medium of what he could and could not data mine and upload to the community. This would completely demolish the fear of effects on financial income. For example, allow VoiD to reveal things about a frame, but not it's stats.  

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Is you intend on providing drop information on a level of detail similar to dataminers...

Who will keep you Honest now?

Through void glitch, we discovered a multitude of descrepancies that we didn't even know existed until a light was cast on them.

 

Who now watches the Watchmen?

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     So I have played this game for a very long time now, and this is pretty much the first on datamining I've heard other than 'it is a thing'. On principle I farm all my items; I'm still farming the Hema research, and I've never really felt the need to find exact numbers online; I've done enough stats to know their is no solace in knowing the odds when you're unlucky. Because of all this, this issue is the first time I've heard Void's name, and it looks like he's been hit by some critical bad luck of his own; he's the most prominent example of a tolerated evil that as a collective has crossed some line.

     Hitting him with lawyers immediately may seem heavy handed, but he is a legal minor in a different country (a country known for extreme legal systems), and corporate law runs on precedent. DE may have wanted to reach out to him personally first, but there are rules and regulations in place across the entire industry, and the companies serving C&Ds have to obey these laws every bit as much as the players, if not moreso because at that scale ignorance/misunderstanding is not a valid excuse. By the looks of things Void published polished but still fairly raw data, and since DE had a specific item they wanted removed it's entirely possible he published something that is part of some large secret (like a quest's dialog) that right now only DE knows the significance of. Also, whilst Void was not directly involved in the unreleased item scandals, if he told people they existed in the engine at all part of the blame falls on him; people will go to ridiculous lengths to unearth something once its existence is proven (see the Gold Rush).The whole thing seems reminiscent of Pandora's Box; Pandora wasn't intending to unleash the evil within upon the world, but if something is referred to as a Pandora's Box you should have considerable qualms about opening it (or to put it another way, the cat is out of the bag and is now gunning for Schrodinger's head).

     On the subject of what DE are now doing about numerical transparency, this is a thornier issue than some realise. EVE Online has already been brought up as an example of showing all the numbers, but this is actually its problem; Spreadsheets Online is Excel in a pretty dress. Anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about never did manufacturing, and it get's to the point where the number you need is amongst so many others and/or is so far through a multi-step equation that you spend more time working it out than it would have taken you to just get lucky with it. I know that especially for console players and people playing with single screens that external websites are going to be an issue, but not having some moderation on which exact numbers are provided will leave the UI completely unusable for all the data displayed; the best compromise would be to have 2 or more different depths of info to choose from, but that will take a long time to implement. There is such a thing as too much data; trust me, I'm a biology PhD student.

     And whoever first brought WoW and wowhead into this seriously doesn't understand the difference between Blizzard, who are milking an aged game for all it's still worth, and DE, who are actually still interested in the game itself. Blizzard long ago stopped caring if people say leaks of the story before it hit game; for example, in the most recent content patch the 'Deaths of Chromie' scenario was activated, whilst its entire transcript, in a nice neat tidied up sequence of dialog by encounter/stage had been up on wowhead for around 3 months. There was a finished guide ready a full day before the patch hit. In contrast, DE suffered a several month setback when someone leaked the script of The War Within, because they decided they wanted to really involve the player on an emotional level. That leak hurt DE, essentially wasting all their effort up until that point, and it hurt and it hurt the player base because it meant we had to wait for all of that work to be done again, but with additional safeguards in place. But if we compare the release of The War Within and WoW 7.2.5, on of them had release playthrough streams and fan reaction videos and the whole community agreeing that it was worth the wait, and about all that can be said for the other was that it was an unusually busy Wednesday in Northrend.

 

tl;dr

Datamining is a help minor at best, Void was unlucky, lawyers exist to police companies as much as to work for them, having every single bit of data can be as much a hindrance as a help, and DE have a good understanding of the value of secrets

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This is a great move.  Understanding the root cause and addressing it, not just flailing at the symptoms.

I'd suggest checking out mobile gatcha games.  They pretty much live on RNG slot machine mechanics.  They have crap odds, but many give safety net against extreme bad luck.  For example, cumulative luck bonus bonus until you get a top tier unit and cosulation token/items from bad rolls.  Sortie's system is the lowest/worst type that usually piss off whales (high $$$ players).  You have to convince them constantly that "the next pull on the slot machine will be better" one way or another.  If your players think "next pull is going to be garbage like the last 5 times," your slot machine failed.

Edited by ssh83

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18 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

People are so demanding numbers those day, without realizing... It doesn't bring anything to the game.

Wow, now you'll know the "Rare drop" is a "9.1% chance drop". What will you do with that information ? Literally nothing.

I really hope dataminers will be somehow banned from the game, punished via lawsuits or whatever. Those guys are making money on stuff that ruins the game for everyone that wish to play the game normally.

I don't know about the full context but I'm not sure I wanted to hear about "Primed Streamline". Another discovery wasted, after Umbra and everything.

You know why I loved Second Dream ? Because I didn't know what to expect. You know why I loved Interstellar ? Because I didn't know what to expect. Why do everyone want everything to be leaked/shown before being delivered now ? Do you really enjoy seeing stuff you already knew about via leaked cinematics, leaked skins or whatever ? I'm sure you don't. You love those bland experiences where you're just going through stuff you know about and you already saw anyway.

I'm usually not that kind of guy, but I really hope that something bad happens to leakers and dataminers (and in an overall, hackers) in real life. Egocentric pricks.

So because you dont think it adds anything to your enjoyment you think your opinion is the only one that matters?

what a childish way to look at things.

The players that want to know the real data myself included dont want the story ruined for you or anyone else.

what we want is for the real numbers for mechanical formulas and drop rates to actually be shown.

Some common bronze mods are more rare then rare golden mods due to what enemy drop what mod and on what node and in what level range.

and intact relic show the rare drop on its drop table as a sliver of a bar (actual number is 2% per the wiki)

refine it to radiant and it will show a nearly full bar (actual real chance is 10%)

when chesa kubrows where released found eggs had a flat 0% chance to ever be a chesa. only bought eggs with platinum actually had a chance to be a chesa.

That is one of the many reasons why people depended on dataminers or experiments to actually see how things worked.

Now tell me where in the damn game can you learn how saryns spore actually interact with toxin procs? oh that is right you cant because the data is not there.

we had to find out by experiment and other ways that 25% of the toxin damage is added to the viral proc as burst damage.

Dont get me started on how Shotgun status works up until 100% status.

People want the real numbers to make informed decisions on what to do in the game.

If you dont need or want that its your decision.

you can for example play diablo 3 with its bare basic stats display that tell you nothing and people like me can turn on the expanded information.

as per your example i would know i could do 100 relic runs on that specific relic and have a statistical chance of getting it around 9 times.

i have done runs with entire communities over 10000 times on one single mission just to open a chest to verify drop tables as low as on the promille scale.

Some like me trive and like to do these things

Never assume just because you dont need the information it stands true for the entire community.

 

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Just now, ssh83 said:

 Sortie's system is the lowest/worst type that usually piss off whales (high $$$ players).  You have to convince them constantly that "the next pull on the slot machine will be better" one way or another.

You could say the same about Rivens.

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First of all if DE don't want unreleased information to be out they shouldn't put it in the game files that the client downloads in the first place (or if they are trolling with us.
Hacking and data mining is 2 different things. In case of hacking DE should always take legal actions (probably the player who gained advantage can be tracked down) while data mining and putting it on a forum might spoil a thing or two but only gives us a little bit more knowledge of the game we are playing.
Like the time I ended up with zero relics on a 60 min tier 1 survival at least I could check it that the recent patch didn't messed with the %.

If you are going to take the road letting us know everything game related is going to be hell of a job for you guys.
If I may suggest a couple of things:

  • Everything that a player can get somehow (from mods, relics, warframes, weapons to partner glyphs) should be searchable ingame (main focus is ingame).
  • We do have a lot of space on the opposite side of the space radio so you can put the Search Machine there. Players should search desired items like Vitality, Dex Syandana or any 3+ letter, etc and it should give a clear answer where can be found (or its unavailable at that time).
  • If I type Nidus it should result these lines: Warframe Nidus, Blueprints Nidus, Cosmetics Nidus and each could be like a dropbox. Then the player chooses the Blueprints it will show the Bp, Chassis, Neuroptics and Systems selecting from those will result all the drop locations and chances for that item.
  • Also the drop chances and items has to be up to date with the latest patch.
  • Players also should give feedback on the searches (or rate it).
  • In a week time DE could create statistics and focus on the most searched stuffs.

(ps: If anybody from DE reads this I'd love to get a LokenPlays and WarframeFanChanels glyphs if possible)

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2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

People are so demanding numbers those day, without realizing... It doesn't bring anything to the game.

Wow, now you'll know the "Rare drop" is a "9.1% chance drop". What will you do with that information ? Literally nothing.

I really hope dataminers will be somehow banned from the game, punished via lawsuits or whatever. Those guys are making money on stuff that ruins the game for everyone that wish to play the game normally.

I don't know about the full context but I'm not sure I wanted to hear about "Primed Streamline". Another discovery wasted, after Umbra and everything.

You know why I loved Second Dream ? Because I didn't know what to expect. You know why I loved Interstellar ? Because I didn't know what to expect. Why do everyone want everything to be leaked/shown before being delivered now ? Do you really enjoy seeing stuff you already knew about via leaked cinematics, leaked skins or whatever ? I'm sure you don't. You love those bland experiences where you're just going through stuff you know about and you already saw anyway.

I'm usually not that kind of guy, but I really hope that something bad happens to leakers and dataminers (and in an overall, hackers) in real life. Egocentric pricks.

Wow, that sounds a bit ignorant and wicked. The most important point of this context of datamining is not spoiling quests, stories, but to see hidden data that DE shouldn't have hidden from us. Crucial things like hidden alt-fire stats, exalted abilities,peacemaker stats, relic drop rates, some WIKI DATAS, bizzare and downright abysmal drop rate of certain mods/parts (0.14and 0.67% stuff come to mind, Final Harbringer and CO for example, hell even 0.03% drop rates exist, from already rare enemies to boot), or even parts that DIDN'T even has a drop location, or wrong locations that god knows when would be fixed if datamining didn't show them, and many others. Sequences happen, but for the greater good. I would rather have some spoils than treated like sheep, like when Chesa first came out and they "fooled" us with the eggs problem, that was utterly disgusting. When your players rely on outside sources for game statistics, you know something is wrong. They totally lack transparency, that people became paranoid and won't trust them. 

He said that he doesn't have anything to do with Umbra and PStreamline leaks. They seem to be blatant hard hacks and injecting stuff.But whether he has a part on it or not, why would DE put such information in the game long before they would be released, if they knew their game can be datamined legally. Why are they even in the current build in the first place? Chinaframe? DE themselves stated they used a different build. These mistakes shouldn't be there in the first place. And most of the community doesn't seem to look at their treatment of Void_Glitch in good light, going all out with lawyers and "copyright strike" despite his datamining supposedly legal in the state law.

Please, maybe watch Shy or Brozime's video and comment sections for more information about this.

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