Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

[Helleborr]

Soooo, it's another Friday without update. Where's the Harrow, Lebowski?

[FoxyKabam]

1 hour ago, Kratier said:

i trust DE is making the right decision, anyone against DE doesn't understand the solid record DE has with being an awesome dev team for many years.

did you forget the sarcasm tag?

/s found this one if you dropped it

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

I remember that in a thread preceeding a devstream I asked DE to not be stubborn and announce the new Prime before it would have been leaked.

They didn't, leak arrived 5 days later.

You had a chance to surprise us, but you didn't got it.

It's your work, you know that hacking something is just a matter of will and time.

The more you give reasons to people to hack/datamine, the more that will and time will be perceived as well spent.

Too much hype breaks the strings that pull us, and you should know that with the war within stuff.

Now, what you did with VoiD_Glitch is like a bad surgery on a tumor.

You didn't remove it properly and the tumor will now spread in ways and places that you can't possibly trace

[CarrotSalad]

Fire Emblem Heroes (Android f2p game) tells players exactly what drop rates are to the decimal point It's right there as a link on every single item ingame behind a RNG. It cant be missed. I Dont know why DE have been so slack? DElayed? slow? The website? well i remember hearing about this like 6 months ago? To be honest i'd just cancel the website and put it into the ingame codex where it belongs.

Afterall how many primes, weapons and other items have been "leaked" accidently from the codex. DE need to accept this.

Get with the times guys. Stop picking fights with the community on something that will improve the overall experience and potential people can experience in the game. This whole droprate/datamined stuff should be information available ingame to all.

I have a friend who freelancers work as a 2nd job doing just this for a number of games that have been made/translated around asia. How hard is it to hire 1 person that keeps ontop of all patch notes and developments ingame to keep information up to date? Are DE's income margins really that thin?

[NightmareT12]

55 minutes ago, Gendalph said:

Any programmer with some reverse-engineering experience could get the same data (if not more) in a couple of days (if not faster).

Void did what he did and kept hist tools to himself, his actions are legal where he lives, so please stop making up things.

Again, missing my point. You ignored the whole previous conversation and assume I have no freaking idea.

But whatever. As I said I don't care. This all would have been avoided by being a bit smart.

[(PSN)VoiD_Glitch]

16 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Again, missing my point. You ignored the whole previous conversation and assume I have no freaking idea.

But whatever. As I said I don't care. This all would have been avoided by being a bit smart.

Yeah, you don't seem to have any idea regarding what you are talking about. You seem to just be trying to pick fights with individuals over this. And like others have said, in and out of these Warframe Forums, I am already stressed enough because Digital Extremes still have not showed that they want to actually work with their community and I am deeply disappointed that Digital Extremes are still basically targeting me for something I was not involved in. If that is not messed up, I don't know what is.

[Jukantos]

I'd like to add my personal opinion to this discussion in a manner as constructive as possible. I hope you will see the value and the logic in my arguments, despite the fact some of them will be uncomfortable to you. Some even put a degree of blame on you, but i think i can justify it sufficiently, if you're willing to hear me / read me out.

 

Here i go then:

First off, the obvious thing first. Whoever genuinely hacks into the game with malicious intent (forging items, scamming trades, creating unauthorized third party servers as you said) deserves everything they get. They're the only ones i'd also like to see the lawyers descent upon. So much for the obvious part. Now let's get into the more tricky stuff and why i think you've caused some degree of it.

What's the point in datamining? Well, some incredibly eager folks will always take any glimpses at new content even in an unfinished and/or unconfirmed form. In particular i think there's a rather large group of (youtube?) content creators that need to keep their upload rates going when content influx is slow(er), in particular in crunch times like this. I know this "crysis" emerged at a really unfortunate time for you, and i hope you are all staying without reasonable and healthy limits when it comes to pumping out new builds and content for us.

Here's the tricky part: Over time, a greater and greater portion of the community has taken increased interest in upcoming changes that could be unveiled by datamining. The reason for that unfortunately lies in changes you've repeatedly made which had partially drastic impacts on the ingame trade economy, and repeatedly without prior warning. I in particular have started following such information channels closely with regards to upcoming reductions in ducat price nerfs (because lets face it, they're always nerfs). I've lost roughly 4500 ducats in DEs price change sweeps, simply because i hadnt traded in certain items yet, and another potential few thousand points on relics i still own which now contain items that sell for 25 and 65 ducats instead of their appropiate 45 and 100, while not compensating the player who picks those rewards at that rarity tier in any form.

And sorry, i cant have been the only one hit badly enough by changes that struck directly into our pockets to want to turn to such information. If i were to catch wind of another upcoming set of changes to ducat prices, or maybe void traces or WHATEVER it may be, hell yea would i use that information and hell yea would i warn my clan mates appropiately. It's a natural instinct to want to protect what you've collected, isnt it?

Those actions made me lose a lot of trust in DE and it took really awesome content (The War Within) to make me stay with the game and to turn towards actually heavily investing still to keep it going (8+ purchases of platinum in the last ~4 months alone)

I think we can all agree the absolute majority of us want to see the game flourish and DE prosper. And none of us will mind if you go after the actually malicious actors in this. But, going after community favorites who clearly have shown no malicious intent with lawyers will (WILL!!!) alienate people against you and doesnt help anybody. I'd say we keep things the way they are, because lets face it, unless you want to become EXTREMELY suppressive, i highly doubt you will ever "stop" the community from datamining. Go after the people who actually try to hack and disturb the game and let the folks who wanna talk about mined stuff on reddit keep to themselves. HECK you could even provide your own plattform for it! What if you made a /r/warframemined or smth and officially warned about spoilers, made clear that information is not final and is only for the eyes of the most avid fans? It'd be a massive bolster to your popularity, it would make it less worthwhile for people to mine outside of your influence, a true win-win scenario.

For now, as of the existance of this thread, i know to stay the heck away from such sources to not be spoiled regarding upcoming tennocon content, but as i stated in the beginning, i see both sides at a degree of fault here. The black sheep who do bad things on the one hand, your actions of the past on the other. I'm in no position to declare a comparison between them by any means, but maybe i've laid out a point you can understand.

Thanks for reading, Tenno :)

 

[Akoaana]

Hi,

In the last months, i used to work a lot with this external tools to manage my reliquary hunt : https://wf.xuerian.net/

It stops to work few days ago, and the welcome message on the homepage is self explaining : DE seems to have stop the access to the data source.

It is possible to know what happens here?

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

23 hours ago, Archwizard said:

And VoiD_Glitch had nothing to do with that. All he does is look at information provided client-side - which literally anyone could do just by plunging into the files they download every update - not inject data into accounts or provide the tools necessary to do so. Things that could, say, spoil TennoCon surprises (imagine that timing!), but not break the game.
_{Now instead of unveiling things at Tennocon that were already datamined, you'll be facing a line of customers asking you about your changed stance on datamining and communication.}

I'm sure a company full of programmers and video game designers understand the difference between "hacking" and "datamining", but I think your lawyers need a course on this.

If you look at a little game like, oh, World of Warcraft, they not only maintain a genial relationship with dataminers, but they openly support such sites and direct people to them as primary information sources, which the publisher doesn't have to waste its own resources on.

Websites like Wowhead and MMO-Champion frequently datamine and discuss information on new releases early on during test phases, and base their business models on disseminating information on stats, locations and drop rates to players. Not only does this hype upcoming content, but it adds to the feedback process - people can see values that may be too strong or weak, and this allows for discussion of adjustments before game-breaking changes are added to the live game. It also allows players to start crafting builds and strategy guides before they get their hands on new content - something Warframe players can otherwise only do with the limited information that gets sieved through devstreams.(Can't even argue this is because WoW is a bigger numbers game than Warframe, since we're talking about drop rates and ability/alt-fire stats here.)

And yes, frequently they even datamine things like dialogue and minor spoilers. People still play the content for themselves, and just as frequently, Blizzard just loads in placeholders on massive spoilers until their scripts are finished.

While exact numbers on drop rates are not usually datamined, these sites are given leeway to spread addons that track such information as players go through the game, allowing rough estimates to be generated over time. Since Warframe doesn't allow addons, and such a method would be inaccurate as more items are added to the same drop tables, an extended search via datamining has been the only viable alternative up to now.

Part of the problem with this is that the in-game resources are decidedly unhelpful when it comes to these kinds of information. Adding these things to a website is just a bandaid fix to this.

Not only do players have to dig around through the Codex for basic information like what planets a relic drops on, but Warframe entries are 90% flavor text that don't tell you the hidden interactions programmed into each ability, like Oberon's dependence on Hallowed Ground, or that you can pop Snow Globes using Freeze, or that you can roll out of Banish. (We asked for synergy and a skill ceiling to these frames, not effects only disseminated through the top X% of players.) The only reason players know about those right now is because we heard it on a devstream or caught the patch notes the day it came out, and continued to spread it via word of mouth.
And god help you if you don't have every enemy scanned, or you'll have no idea where the name-brand weapon parts or mods you need drop. There's a tutorial on how to capture enemies for the Sanctuary, but there isn't one on how to add enemies to the Codex, or even to use consumables.
In fact, I would hazard a guess that most starting players don't know what the heck the Codex is good for because nothing in-game points you to it.

Combined with the use of an arbitrary graph- or color-based system (RIP colorblind peeps), the in-game resources are, frankly, designed to give you the absolute minimum.

Not to mention that an updated Profile video has yet to be released for Oberon, and Limbo's didn't even mention his passive - which, frankly, mitigates my faith in DE's ability to keep players updated with both accurate and thorough information.

Bear in mind, most players don't look at the wiki, or the forums. They will continue flying blind in such a manner until there is an intuitive way to locate this information in-game.

I live by the wiki.

DE ty for working towards a new brighter tomorrow.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Is there a possibility that this must do with the whole drop rate/datamining drama?

[Ny_Soro]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)OTF SERENiTY said:

Is there a possibility that this must do with the whole drop rate/datamining drama?

Any website that shows data pertaining to Warframes drop tables or other instances are under fire from DE. Other than that, I'll just leave this here if anyone hasn't seen this yet:

 

[SarynPrime]

I can see through your wild attempts to save face for DE, Reb.

Edited June 23, 2017 by SarynPrime
Spelling error

[dashashou]

1 hour ago, yingji said:

I don't know about you but suddenly data mining sounds like a far more interesting and exciting use of time than playing the same video content over and over.

statement deleted for fear of warning points on this issue 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Ravel7

[Fugana]

So we are not allowed to see the real drop chances? 

[CeePee]

Oh look, another of these threads

[Ny_Soro]

 

3 minutes ago, Fugana said:

So we are not allowed to see the real drop chances? 

I think if I understand this correctly. The reason they're cracking down on external resources like the link OP provided is that if these people have the ability to get data out of the code of Warframe; then they have enough power to possibly leak content, hack the game, or something similar for profit. 

There are legit websites that can provide useful information like the link OP provided but then again there are those who could use this kind of unmonitored activity to release stuff DE doesn't want us to see. 

At least that's what I understand. I completely agree with people that websites like these can help. 

[yingji]

26 minutes ago, Ravel7 said:

statement deleted for fear of warning points on this issue 

Self censorship is what every dying culture wants you to do. Be strong, tenno.

[PookieNumnums]

17 hours ago, TucsonKaHN said:

Uhh, Sudoku? I think you meant "seppuku". Although, some of those Sudoku number puzzles do frustrate me enough to contemplate ritual suicide*....

*That was a joke. I do not, in any way, condone suicide or other forms of "self-termination". If you or a loved one is struggling (or suspected of struggling) with thoughts of suicide or suicidal idealization, I urge you to seek whatever help you need. There are a plethora of resources available.

yes i mean seppuku. calling it sudoku is some-what of a meme. 

now you know.

[Kratier]

2 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Good for you. I have no trust in them to make the right call. We are in disagreement.

you haven't even been here a year, i'm not worried about what you feel

Edited June 23, 2017 by Kratier

[Akoaana]

I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of external tools. Honestly, offering an API with just the list of items available in game should be enough.

And the cost for it would be near of zero.

Anyways, thanks for the answers!

[Warden3]

18 minutes ago, Kratier said:

you haven't even been here a year, i'm not worried about what you feel

What about those of us (like me) who have? If you are going to use account age to determine the strength of one's thoughts, better apply that universally.

[(XBOX)x Varda x]

This is what I wanted all along - to know those missions where there's no point going after a 0.1% drop chance of a relic and instead to locate those 10% and above  rewards! Looking forward to running spy missions again knowing what I might get and that it's worth it 

[Neightrix]

A good step towards transparency could be to respond to why riven cycling has no stat locking.

Time vs Platinum doesn't apply there and you can potentially invest many hours and get nothing.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

Meh, I'm indifferent to the whole situation.

Players want transparency.  Companies want to protect their product.

I'm gonna agree here. Also, the threat of being sued by any company and most likely losing and getting a big fine or going to jail. Not sure why anyone would bother to datamine in the first place. You never know when shet will hit the fan. 

[Me.KayOh]

She said they sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up.

"evidence"

people seemed to just fly over that word.

lol.

I use the wikia, so if that has datamined information on it, then i guess i use datamined info? otherwise, i dont really care for people who datamine. that time could be spent enjoying the content from DE.

however, if this leads to more transparency from DE, then i guess i owe the involved dataminers an ounce of gratitude, or dare i say...a gram?

#manyhues.