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Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).


[DE]Rebecca
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1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

Actually some cases fight in court are using precedent from the 1800's so 2003 isn't that far back in relation to law. and precedent don't get replaced very often 

Well yes but "bug bounty" programs in question in 2003 were near to non-existent as people did not understand how effective of an asset they were until years later.

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11 minutes ago, yingji said:

If you want to prove something then don't ask me to do the work for you.

Uh you were the one telling me to do it. I have no intention to. Because if Rebecca and DE had lied they would be very stupid to do so.

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3 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

By typing bug report into google and limiting it to the last 24 hrs theres 176,000 entries. I will take half way. That doesn't seem like a few programs. 

I can see this is not your area and since I don't feel like providing a free education on exploit pricing then you'll have to go with what you know.

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@(PS4)VoiD_Glitch

A cease and desist order only identifies content/activity infringing on the right holder's welfare and compels the offender to stop, it doesn't need to have a reason, let alone something like "because primed streamline was leaked we're going to stop you from posting drop tables, which has nothing to do with it".

If they're trying to infer you being liable for primed streamline / umbra leak, they'll need to 1. prove you did it or were involved in part of it, and 2. show how much money lost because of this and sue you for compensation.  Tall order.  Any suggestions along this line made by the legal team is mostly scare tactics.

Having said that, I'm not saying you should disregard and not follow the C&D.  I'm just saying it is a completely separately matter from them potentially suing your A** off for money due to the primed streamline / umbra leak.

The reality (to the lawyers) is that there is not money in your case, just play nice and it will go away.

 

 

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1 minute ago, yingji said:

I can see this is not your area and since I don't feel like providing a free education on exploit pricing then you'll have to go with what you know.

DE does not have an 0 day exploit program as that would involve letter players play a build before it was released. Can you say this is their fault? They aren't exactly that important I mean this is a stupid game about space ninjas, not software to run a bank.

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2 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

DE does not have an 0 day exploit program as that would involve letter players play a build before it was released. Can you say this is their fault? They aren't exactly that important I mean this is a stupid game about space ninjas, not software to run a bank.

You do know how much the video gaming sector is worth right?

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8 minutes ago, yingji said:

You do know how much the video gaming sector is worth right?

Yes but DE is worthless in the grand scheme of things. This isn't Blizzard its a tiny canadian indie company that makes less than some restaurants. If you made an ftp indie game would you really spend millions and millions to ensure 0 day vulnerabilities and even then its not 100 percent bug and exploit free? Not to mention the potential consequences of dealing with those hackers and blackmailing you etc.

Edited by sinisteran
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1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

tiny pathetic canadian indie company

Please don't bring Canada into this ... as a Canadian I do take offense.

We're obviously not as sophisticated as some other country conducting grand undertakings like booting millions of people off healthcare and tipping the blood money as tax cuts to the rich, but at least we're friendly :)

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1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

Yes but DE is worthless in the grand scheme of things. This isn't Blizzard its a tiny pathetic canadian indie company that makes less than some restaurants. If you made an ftp indie game would you really spend millions and millions to ensure 0 day vulnerabilities and even then its not 100 percent bug and exploit free? Not to mention the potential consequences of dealing with those hackers and blackmailing you etc.

Are you saying DE is too small to put up a Bug Bounty scheme? They sure are quick to throw legal threats at a foreign child for simply datamining so what are the options then for anyone who finds an actually serious technical problem? Go public and face the same treatment as Void_glitch or worse? I think you see the problem.

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6 minutes ago, yingji said:

Are you saying DE is too small to put up a Bug Bounty scheme? They sure are quick to throw legal threats at a foreign child for simply datamining so what are the options then for anyone who finds an actually serious technical problem? Go public and face the same treatment as Void_glitch or worse? I think you see the problem.

Actually yes. Void is face of data mining and he is technically breaching their copyright. Stopping him would lead to stopping others datamining. Thus reducing future exploits and hacks. Its is not only cheaper but way more efficient. Its a good move actually and they aren't doing anything shady. 

Shady would be just to IP ban him and remove all possible access he has in the game. Not waste time and create this whole debacle. A 17 yr old cant exactly convince their parents to move or get the ISP to change their IP.

Actually DE being so bold is more damaging to them than it is helpful. They could have even thrown in an NDA but they didn't. 

Edited by sinisteran
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Just now, sinisteran said:

Actually yes. Void is face of data mining. Stopping him would lead to stopping others datamining. Thus reducing future exploits and hacks. Its is not only cheaper but way more efficient. Its a good move actually and they aren't doing anything shady. 

I'm sure if alternatively DE experiences an increase in hacks we will be the very last to hear about it.

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1 minute ago, yingji said:

I'm sure if alternatively DE experiences an increase in hacks we will be the very last to hear about it.

Well we dont know that yet. But as a business and legal stand point this is the best move for them. I also think if they were so bad they'd force Void to sign an NDA so we wont even know any of this.We'd just think he disappeared.

Edited by sinisteran
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2 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Well we dont know that yet. But as a business and legal stand point this is the best move for them. I also think if they were so bad they'd force Void to sign an NDA so we wont even know any of this.We'd just think he disappeared.

CANADIAN GAME COMPANY 'DISAPPEARS' 17 YEAR OLD AMERICAN COMPUTER PRODIGY

Can it get any worse at this point.

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2 minutes ago, yingji said:

CANADIAN GAME COMPANY 'DISAPPEARS' 17 YEAR OLD AMERICAN COMPUTER PRODIGY

Can it get any worse at this point.

Except no one can imperically blame them or find out without one side breaking nda and the incident wont be this large. Most of us would just think he went to college.

Edited by sinisteran
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On 6/22/2017 at 4:24 PM, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

You know, I would be willing to assist you, but you people seem to be against me in this... Additionally, I could provide a report I wrote about Warframe Random Number Generation a long time ago, if that would assist you in your explanation of your Warframe Random Number Generation mechanics.

There is an interesting pattern here, with senior Tenno also having noticed a "trend" with RNG and drops that really needs to be fixed, downgrading the positivity of the OP accordingly.  Indeed, the value of the chance tables themselves is belied by this issue.  Sorry, but that needed to be cryptic.

 

As for the more junior Tenno here, there is something you must keep squarely in mind as you shower DE with appropriate appreciation for finally publishing the mission decks.  The context of this announcement is dark and unfortunate.

 

Void Glitch has been the center of attention for DE's anti mining efforts for a very long time.  This is completely uncalled for.  For almost 3 years they quietly tolerated it and now that a completely different entity, with different goals and tools, compromizes a flaw to exploit the game and spoil content do the scary legal letters come out?  Unacceptable.  Disrespectful!  I don't want to see an apology, but I do expect DE to knock it off.  Community members that have bothered to be community members for this long under withering abuse are DE's assets even if they don't agree with them.  DE can make examples of them or accept their help.  The former should be understood as wrong in this case.

Before we had complex stats for weapons and frames in the codex, such things had to be experimentally determined and published by the wiki team then verified by data-miners.  Once this information became widespread, it made no sense to keep the numbers out of the game UI and now we all benefit from seeing the numbers.  I know there are members of the Sr Dev team who fundamentally disagree with me on that last point.

Weapons that have hidden mechanics and status would be complete enigmas without data-miners.

During the Void Key era, no one knew how to get an item unless they went out of game and looked it up.  Even now this is done to find where to get relics.

This information informs how a lot of us fundamentally play the game and for years, we have relied on hard working, out of game information sources to do it.

 

You shouldn't have to rely on a datamine to know how a game works.  Game communities at large accept that reality and develop 3rd party tools that collect or display information that make the game playable.  Simply look at Elite Dangerous for evidence.

 

In the past when DE has posted behind the scene statistics, there have been incidents where the information was wrong.  In other cases, the drop tables themselves were simply incorrect.  It was only after posts of data-miners that these errors were discovered and corrected.  I believe proofreading the drop tables was one of VG's original motivations for extracting them.  The fact Rebecka refers to this site as automated gives me hope that the situation will not recur.  I  don't believe DE will post nearly as much or as detailed, however.

 

DE will always hold something back.  I don't even know if it's deliberate as they have had serious issues with matching goals with actions.  They can't resist giving us the unknown just to see if we do something interesting with it.  The way this game has worked in the past, there always seems to be a need for someone to unpack the magic of the new thing so we don't need to make under-informed decisions about if something is good. I know they think making data driven choices is not fun, but it's more fun the guessing what the Toxocyst does. Riven dispositions are a perfect example.  Why do I need to go to a github repo to know exactly how badly the Euphona riven was nerfed on release? There is also still no UI for the Helminth Cyst, no in-game explanation for what it is, how long it lasts, or how it spreads.  I know the feature is underdeveloped and it was was interesting but why was a Reddit post the only hard information on it for a month?  The way DE plays with the community is part of what makes the game interesting from time to time but data-mining is part of that dynamic.  Without the revelations of healthy (non spoiler, non exploitation) technical information, that interesting thing turns to frustration.  Hype doesn't cause fiscal damage.

 

TL DR

 

I digress, as this post is not actually about the value of unveiling drop tables and mechanics.  It's about addressing why DE would bother with it now.  This thread exists only because the Void Glitch repo is gone.  The exploits perpetrated by others can still occur and he is being legally threatened?  The whole situation is miss-attributed and that must be addressed else were before anyone should see this as entirely good thing, worthy of unconditional praise.  

 

I'd be ecstatic to see this if the information didn't already exist.  

I feel like I can respect DE's right to protect the game while also condemning them regarding how.  The pleas for help make little sense now that the subject matter experts are alienated and have been willing and available for years.  Have I been mistaking insensitivity and carelessness for ineptitude when it was actually crass malice?!

Edited by Sahysa
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8 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Actually yes. Void is face of data mining and he is technically breaching their copyright. Stopping him would lead to stopping others datamining. Thus reducing future exploits and hacks. Its is not only cheaper but way more efficient. Its a good move actually and they aren't doing anything shady. 

Shady would be just to IP ban him and remove all possible access he has in the game. Not waste time and create this whole debacle. A 17 yr old cant exactly convince their parents to move or get the ISP to change their IP.

Actually DE being so bold is more damaging to them than it is helpful. They could have even thrown in an NDA but they didn't. 

I do not believe that I am infringing on their copyright, but that is what the lawyers are paid to say.

Also, Digital Extremes did IP block me and remove all possible access I have in the game. It isn't like I play Warframe anymore anyway, but you only need the client to datamine. You don't need to be able to log-in.

Yeah, and they cannot force me to sign an NDA. It is my choice to do that. You need to know what you are talking about.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

I do not believe that I am infringing on their copyright, but that is what the lawyers are paid to say.

Also, Digital Extremes did IP block me and remove all possible access I have in the game. It isn't like I play Warframe anymore anyway, but you only need the client to datamine. You don't need to be able to log-in.

Yeah, and they cannot force me to sign an NDA. It is my choice to do that. You need to know what you are talking about.

Stop posting and only talk to your lawyer (get one, talk to reddit if you don't have one and want some advice finding one) and only have your lawyer talk to their lawyer, don't talk direct. Really. For your own good, really really :)

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

I do not believe that I am infringing on their copyright, but that is what the lawyers are paid to say.

Also, Digital Extremes did IP block me and remove all possible access I have in the game. It isn't like I play Warframe anymore anyway, but you only need the client to datamine. You don't need to be able to log-in.

Yeah, and they cannot force me to sign an NDA. It is my choice to do that. You need to know what you are talking about.

If someone has art and story thats theirs and you post it in the open without permission. Its a breach, I know it seems dumb but thats how it is.

I did not know the information here and I apologize.

When I mean force I mean like an ultimatum. ie sign the C&D with the NDA or we take legal action. most people will the latter to avoid any more problems.

I also think you dont need to waste money on a lawyer. A C&D isn't a lawsuit. Technically we can still datamine, DE cant stop it if we only reveal info that falls into fair use - drop rates etc. But pics of the new primes, weapons, mods and any kind of new weapons, scripts is a no no

Edited by sinisteran
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Well, I don't disagree with sinisteran's statement that datamining could potentially affect DE's revenue stream and it probably has. This is probably the major reason they're even doing this. Even though I'm not a big spender nor important enough of a revenue stream for DE, when their lies are being exposed by datamined info, one would feel reluctant to continue to support such a company.

I still play due to how cathartic it is to shut my brain off and shoot at easy enemies, but at one point I was absolutely disappointed by how easy the game has become. They have made some progress to balance the game via some much needed nerfs and it seems even players are tired of cheesing the game as I have not ran into many instances of it. Maybe? I don't play as much now, though.

Wait, was DE present for Strauss Zelnick's speech during a technological conference recently? Huh...? It seems that Take 2 is revoking the C&D against OpenIV. I wonder what happened...? I thought they thought it was a good idea.

Edited by SicSlaver
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11 hours ago, Sahysa said:

I feel like I can respect DE's right to protect the game while also condemning them regarding how.  The pleas for help make little sense now...

Indeed.  I agree entirely.

My point was this:

The timing of DE's statement leaves a great deal to be desired.  In fact, it stinks.  Slap Void with a C&D (I know, it was only a Letter of Warning, but it has the same effect on an person nonetheless), then, and only then, make an official announcement about being all gung ho about providing players with drop rate information and setting "the new standard for transparency with the community?"  They've gotten the whole thing backwards.  Why did they wait for two weeks after quasi-legal action was taken to make a statement about "transparency?"

I don't believe DE had any intention to publish actual drop rate values.  And I'm completely fine with that.  They are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Fact is, Void already had the transparency ball rolling.  DE lawyered up and took it, and in order to avoid any further community backlash by thereafter withholding drop rate information, they had to run with it.

But to issue a statement that, in my opinion basically plays it off as though it had been DE's intention all along to publish drop rate information I find to be just a little disingenuous, given the recent chain of events.  Again, why the wait?

DE said in the 2016 year end Devstream that one of the most important things they needed to work on in 2017 was communication with the players.  This remains true and DE's statement is a step towards that goal...sort of...in a way...I suppose.  But I think what the community really wants is honest, proactive communication, a priori.  Not ex post facto transparency.

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:32 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Would it also be possible to see stats such as range for melee weapons eventually listed in game, and added to the wiki for new weapons for now? I believe we have also relied on data miners for these stats as well. This whole situation is reminding me how many things (not drop tables) but things such as ability or weapon stats, that we rely on the wiki for. I understand it is a temporary solution to put all this on wiki, but it seems, and I hope I am reading it correctly, that the eventual goal is to have it all listed in game. 

Drop table percentages make sense to have on the website, because that kind of back end thing is appreciated transparency by some players, but may not look as polished as the devs would look as part of the in game interface. I get that. 

But I think in terms of stuff like melee weapon range, exalted weapon stats, etc, etc. All of it should eventually be somewhere in game. I think while the wiki is an amazing resource, and has potential to be an even greater resource, any stats for a weapon or ability I have is not something I should have to tab out of the game to find out, imo. 

Thank you for this post, and for DE's continued commitment to transparency! To be honest, while some people complain, it is true that there really aren't any games I can think of that give you all of the percentages like that. However, Warframe is special in so many ways already, being an industry pioneer in many ways. I think DE could set the standard for the entire gaming world, and show everyone how transparency is really done, and how much players appreciate it! 

The issue with melee range is that it can vary because of different stances and different swings, although we could have a range for the values, like 10m-15m as the listed range.

Honestly when it comes to drop rates right now I do not think DE can get away with just posting the stats in game or on their own website while maintaining 100% trust with the community after this whole event with Void.

Also when it comes to the wiki it relies on data mines for some of its values and I for one will not believe any of its values when Harrow drops next week and will find it hard to continue to trust DE based on how I have seen this whole situation unravel.

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:41 PM, NightmareT12 said:


@(PS4)VoiD_Glitch if you want a personal advice: Be a bit more picky with what you share (it's one thing to show the RNG chances, another one to rip a Prime model, another one to rip a new character from a quest and another one to leak a script, even if it's added beforehand :P), and if you have a suspicion of what and how that Umbra/Streamline stuff happened, be smart and make sure that doesn't happen again by either, pointing at the flaw or not sharing it. Again, I know you yourself have not done anything with bad intentions, nor are directly responsible of that, but are you sure, 100%, that you undirectly have not contributed somehow to it? That's where I want to go.

So I'm not going to be pointing fingers really here. DE did the right thing, VoiD was doing the right thing (although maybe not carefully enough) and hopefully this situation serves for something useful for once.

DE have taken Void Glitch and are using him as the culprit for a "crime" he hasn't committed. He was our lead source of information keeping DE honest, see update 9 drop chances. To think just because someone is data mining and presenting the information to the world doesn't mean that he was the source of the hacks, I will also agree it doesn't negate him from it.

DE had someone that was publicly posting Data mines and singled them out. That's how some people see it right now and it does not and will not score points for them with the community and will only bring back memories of how things use to be and how knee jerk reactiony DE can be.

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6 hours ago, Church002 said:

She said they sought legal counsel when hacking took place and evidence piled up.

"evidence"

people seemed to just fly over that word.

lol.

I use the wikia, so if that has datamined information on it, then i guess i use datamined info? otherwise, i dont really care for people who datamine. that time could be spent enjoying the content from DE.

however, if this leads to more transparency from DE, then i guess i owe the involved dataminers an ounce of gratitude, or dare i say...a gram?

#manyhues.

As I know some stuff in the wiki uses the datamined info. The most obvious one is the Void Relic page which is full of Void_Glitch's stuff, they even linked the reference to him.

On some page they say that the piece of info in context was from datamining, while some others they do not, such us what I found on Dera and Vauban page, but that's a minor thing. They turn a blind eye to the practice so they accept all valid contributions, whether datamined or manual tested. After all if I'm not mistaken it's been a long time since a DE member himself contributed to the wiki, so some of the drop rates of recent items, etc, may contain datamined information.

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