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[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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19 minutes ago, Sasquatch180 said:

(such as Chesa Kubrows not dropping upon launch from Alerts)

What?

And I'm curious: Why do people think knowing the drop-rates helps in any way?
In the end it's just about probabilities. And people don't understand probabilities.

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3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

What?

And I'm curious: Why do people think knowing the drop-rates helps in any way?
In the end it's just about probabilities. And people don't understand probabilities.

I've been wondering this, myself. I mean, sure, it's nice to know that the item you want isn't a .00001% drop rate, but just because it says 10% doesn't guarantee that it's only going to take a maximum of 10 runs to get that item.

People don't seem to understand that each individual pull is its own instance.

RE: What?
Chesa Kubrows, upon release, only hatched from plat-purchased eggs. Somehow.

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Just now, Chipputer said:

 

RE: What?
Chesa Kubrows, upon release, only hatched from plat-purchased eggs. Somehow.

I see. Thanks for that information

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2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

it's nice to know that the item you want isn't a .00001% drop rate

Shouldn't wanting to know this be enough? No need to justify even further. Call it an assurance that it won't take you years to nab what you need. Also you can search around which place has the highest probability. It's all about knowing where to try to get things.

Edited by RavingRoman
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36 minutes ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Not to say I don't trust DE, but I don't trust DE...

I understand why, I really do. But I don't think they would try to trick us the very first time they decide to work with us on this, and post false droprates. So maybe we should cut them a little slack and give them the benefit of doubt, at least until the new system is in-game and we can see how it all works.

In other words, you're jumping the gun a bit. Give them a chance first, and if they fail or something shady happens, then call for 3rd party involvement.

Edited by Silvus-Sol
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Just now, RavingRoman said:

Shouldn't knowing this be enough.

The problem is that it doesn't help you when it comes down to flat out RNG for what you get. The only items you can increase drop rates on are relic items. Aside from that it pretty much just comes down to, "this item has a marginally higher drop rate here so I guess we'll farm here instead of there."

What's going to happen is DE's going to post a 5% drop rate on an item that someone wants, they're not going to get it after 20 runs, then they're going to come to the forums complaining that the drop rates are lies and get mad when people tell them that it's still down to RNG. It already happens. It's going to be worse when people can throw DE published drop rates in their faces and accuse them of lying.

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Just now, RavingRoman said:

Call it an assurance that it won't take you years to nab what you need.

But knowing about the probability wont get you that information.
Even if the probability is just 0.0000001%, you can still drop the item from the first run you do. And even if the probability is 10%, you could still farm for ages before dropping anything.

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1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

edit: ppl seeing this could potentially get the wrong perception and judge preemptively. is that considered proof of revenue loss?

Nope, because what you are doing is exercising free speech unless you are actively defaming them. But if you went Datamined Harrows questline and posted all audio dialogue, script etc then yes.

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1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1. Like i just said above, you are playing their game and you need to abide by their rules. You wanting to play the game like you like is not a good argument. They set the rules. Be friendly and give reasons and hope they see your side. Taking number they dont provide and then getting angry about it is not going to help in this situation.

2. It's not info they provide and you take.

3. Im pretty sure my question is clear in what i am asking. Dont know what exactly you are taking from it to translate to me saying 15% crit is bad.

Is it enough to mod for crit for a weapon with meh crit?

I am asking if the EB bonus, the 15%, will give you a wider range of weapons to use for you min/maxers. Does it mean that you can equip a weapon with meh crit. A weapon with meh crit. A WEAPON WITH MEH CRIT.

Is this the part that's confusing, somehow? I am asking if it's fine to use a weapon that doesnt have high crit but average (meh) crit.

Do you understand now? Cause i dont it can make it any clearer.

4. Not really, you guys keep answering by posting builds instead of saying why that info is essential.

Im trying to get you guys to create an actual argument thats not, "I want numbers cause i use numbers!" If this is all you got i can see why DE takes so long in giving numbers. Because they are not making Number Cruncher The Game, they are making Warframe.

 

 

1. their game yes but my time and money which i wouldn't spend if i didn't enjoy. i'm not going to comment on rules which i agreed to. i am friendly, i gave reasons.

2. and like the wiki if someone didn't "take" that information and share, many players probably wouldn't be here for lack of information which they considered to be essential.

3. i'm sorry it seems i was confused. if i understand you correctly the answer to your question can only be found on the wiki here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Exalted_Blade. afaik  most of the stats on that page are datamined and it would be impossible to answer you without it since it's not presented anywhere ingame.

edit:

28 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Nope, because what you are doing is exercising free speech unless you are actively defaming them. But if you went Datamined Harrows questline and posted all audio dialogue, script etc then yes.

i think even if DE could prove financial loss due to data mined / leaked unfinished content for their beta (not final) game they don't need to for reasons already stated in this thread and i'm sure it won't be the case.

my heart goes out to both parties involved and i hope DE reconsiders and sets another example for the industry by being honest and allowing data miners to cooperate with them.

 

Edited by ..atom..
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15 hours ago, AbhijitSM said:

To be honest the above display is pretty misleading in a way. The sortie rewards show a total 11 rewards but they are in reality 24 which is a pretty diluted drop table. 3 types of rivens (soon to be 4), 5 types of focus lens, 5 types of greater focus lens & 4 types of boosters. Will you display the % drop rates for each of these ? Right now the riven mods seem to have unequal drop rates between Pistol/AR rivens & shotgun feeling like a rarer one. Why wasn't this added since beginning in the first place ?

Well, if you want the percentages... brace yourself...

Personally, I dislike the information shown like this:
smI9iRtfbACqGZvNZ629ER6w70evvzEP7srnz8AG

I prefer the information to be shown like this:

Spoiler

rPxaRhw.png

Hq1ztCA.png

And for Relics, like this:
xJOFr76.png

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/799258-de-fix-your-sortie-rewards-table-again/?page=2#comment-8709114

Edited by Ditto132
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2 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Not to say I don't trust DE, but I don't trust DE on this particular matter given what has happened in the past in regards to matters like this, from outright incorrect information on locations to farm for items (which kudos to them they DID go and correct when pointed out, but why that happened in the first place is a goddamn mystery), to denials about drop rates being borked (such as Chesa Kubrows not dropping upon launch from Alerts), and what I view as the outright malicious situation regarding old Prime Parts in the Void where they had absurdly low drop rates and upon being called out on it after people saw the correct values DE's response was to make it harder to get that sort of information.

 

Now I'm not going to go into particulars or finger pointing about the current situation regarding Void vs DE (I made my stance perfectly clear in an earlier post in the Datamine megathread), but I strongly urge DE to seriously consider getting in a third party that can independently verify all the information they plan to add in to gain a bit more trust back from the community (or at least the portion who cares about this stuff), and to calm mine and other's potential fears about DE saying one thing and the opposite being true like what has happened in the past.

I like how no one mentions that the datamining came AFTER people played the game and saw goofy stuff.

Datamining is simply used as the gotcha moment but no one remembers how it got to that point.

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1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

quote

The easiest solution  I think DE can and should do is to change to Eula and allow data mining as long as it does not breach fair use or set STATED PARAMETERS. 

For example they could say in the EULA to allow drop rate, locations, rotations, stats of released weapon and frames within the latest build or something like this. 

And state the things not allowed- audio clips, scripts, or anything related to frames and weapons that are currently not in the latest ver of the consumer build.

But the grey area would be S#&$ they showed off in devstream or by accident.

 

Edited by sinisteran
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It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

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Thanks Rebecca. Drop tables are nice to have but I don't think future content should be released to the public before it is finalized.

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It's fun, because there's an assumption that VoiD_Glitch work damaged DE.

I might say that having the chance to check the drop tables he datamined gave me faith to fund the game, something that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

Then, again, we all know how this will end.

Datamine stuff won't be anymore in a pubblic repository but spread everywhere, just harder to find.

 

On a side note.

The supposed damage argument is so funny.

Oberon P was leaked and I think it's ugly, knowing that he was ugly 2 weeks in advance could have changed my perception of the frame being fat and ugly? Nope LOL

 

Umbra being shown...is it really that bad?

At least I know it's in the game in some capacity and DE hasn't been just speaking for the last 18 months.

It gave me something to look forward to, something that gave me hype more than DE was able with 2 months of "Come to Tennocon"...yeah...from Italy...easypeasy....

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1 hour ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

It isn't that funny considering people still play games by EA and ubisoft.

Edited by Valiant
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DE, you're missing an opportunity to work with someone that can really help you out. Even if you guys are giving us the drop chance list, how do I know that it's actually accurate? Void_Glitch kept you guys honest, and helped find a bug or two. He gave you guys a chance to see the community's reaction to weapon stats and item drop chances before they went live, giving you guys time to touch up on them. 

Maybe let Void_Glitch do his Datamining, but let him report to you  what he's going to release before he releases it, so to confirm that he doesn't show anything out of line

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2 hours ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

I don't understand this either. I see a lot of people throwing around the word 'trust' as if DE is a hospital or a bank. As far as I am aware, outside of China they are not obligated to do anything about displaying drop rates. If someone doesn't like the drop chances they are getting, then use your power as a consumer and leave. There are plenty of other F2P devs out there you can go and put your "trust" in... whatever the hell that means...

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11 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Maybe let Void_Glitch do his Datamining, but let him report to you  what he's going to release before he releases it, so to confirm that he doesn't show anything out of line

There are snippets going around where he was apparently told to moderate what he is releasing under threat of getting banned from some or other design/dev/council. He seemingly was banned eventually, so if asking him in good faith to modertate stuff doesn't work, what is the point of trying to work with him? By his own admission he doesn't play the game anymore (which makes his motivation unclear) and he knew about the exploit but then goes to great length in this thread to say how it is not his responsibility to communicate that with DE. Essentially then if he doesn't care when or how DE (and by extension the playerbase) gets screwed over in terms of a breach, what's the point of trying to recruit him?

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6 hours ago, Silvus-Sol said:

I understand why, I really do. But I don't think they would try to trick us the very first time they decide to work with us on this, and post false droprates. So maybe we should cut them a little slack and give them the benefit of doubt, at least until the new system is in-game and we can see how it all works.

In other words, you're jumping the gun a bit. Give them a chance first, and if they fail or something shady happens, then call for 3rd party involvement.

It's going to take more than making pretty noises for them to get me to trust them. i want to, I really do, but literally going 'the plat purchased item has different stats than the found item' for the egg thing alongside in general how they've responded to feedback in the past (Oberon, Ash, Mag....) leads me to having a dim view on how this will turn out. Mind you that dim viw is because 'oh what's the easiest way to do this' rather than 'oh hey let's screw the playerbase over. So halon's razor applies 'Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.'

Edit: As for 'If you don't trust them and have such a hate going on for them why play'

Again my mistrust isn't due to disliking them. ON the contrary as people those that have shown themselves on camera seem like pretty decent enough people. Friends who have apparently met Rebecca and co say good things. I just don't trust them to not make shortsighted mistakes that will come off as being worse looking than they actually are.

To put another way my distrust of their decision making is far less than EA's decision making, or bathesda's ability to mak descisions. I am an inherently not trusting person. i don't want anyone to feel personally put out by that.

Edited by MarrikBroom
spelling corrections and adding statement.
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15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

<<excuses>>

So you'll drive away players AND do your own secret datamining? Well

 

11 hours ago, CeePee said:

It's funny you even play the game if you have such a massive distrust towards DE. Of course they want their numbers to be accurate.

No, quite common game devs are not trusted by their players.

And yet they've shut down a source which has caught numerous issues given their fairly poor QA. So, no, sorry, your "of course" isn't.

 

9 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

There are snippets going around where he was apparently told to moderate what he is releasing under threat of getting banned from some or other design/dev/council.

That was a couple of years ago. DE didn't want a dataminer in the Design Council forum. 100% fair, up to them. Heck, if they banned dataminers it'd be no more than a frown. They went to *legal letters* - going after *individuals* (not even projects) sets a precedent. As I said, I've disabled the discord overlay and macro I used to rapid fire certain weapons. Basic common sense. Heck, good Q if the wiki will be censored now.

(Certainly a lot of datamined information will only be released within certain clans now...)

So - that was the *only* previous direct contact. DE have a very spotty record, and whiteknighting them looks really, really bad in context.

Edited by DawnFalcon
brevity
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8 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

So what you are telling me here is that you do not need to know the weapon range stat cause you answer is, "Put range in a melee to get range."

Yeah, everyone knows that. Is there a weapon where putting range doesnt give you range?

this about exalted blade which you state doesnt actually use the weapon stat. So my has no answer cause weapon crit is meaninless

WHat you are telling here is that there are people that will look at a stat and not do further research? I mean, two seconds into watching some one use the sonicor will tell you that this stat does not represent the game.

I really hope people dont pick weapons like this.

the video spotlight says your weapon effect EB but you later say that it doesnt, only the mods do. I guess they should clarify that.

is there no way to find this info out in the game by playing the game and seeing numbers?

Well the chesa eggs will take a while since they take a while to spawn.

Taking a long time to show numbers? Yeah, it's their game and they set the rules. People need to get this in their heads. You have to wait until they are ready.

BTW, saying they have lax measures doesnt mean it's ok to do it.

 

 You clearly are not even trying to understand what me and others have explained to you. 

range is important because it affects how many enemies you can hit.  The mods reach and primed reach does not in fact increase range the same way on all weapons. 

polearms, whips and staves get an amazing size increase on their hitboxes. So much that most of them extend out from the physical model 10 meters across. 

the galatine prime reach around 4 meters with primed reach if i recall right. 

Also yes trhere are weapons that haver such a small range that even primed reach wont do jack S#&amp;&#036;. obex is a prime example of this. 

As for my example about crit rates..... well you clearly have problems reading basic information if you cant understand basic erxamples. 

but lets make it as damn basic as we can. 

15% crit chance on exalted blade is not meh and never will be me. 

your weapon does not affect this at all unless we are talking about swords because just using a sword for the mod slots will increase your speed with 10%

since we want the most power out of this we use swords. 

The reason galatine prime is my example is because even modded for pure damage it will be helpful when outside of exalted blade. 

now lets go over why the hell 15% crit chance is not meh. 

FIRE RATE. 

You quite clearly have no idea how it works. Nor do you know that all melee weapon speed is counted in fire rate. 

a weapon with a fire rate of  10 and a crit chance of 10% will outpeform an weapon with a fire rate of 2 and a crit rate of 20%

that is why you add berzerker and primed fury as mods onto the swords you use for the mod base when using exalted blade. 

berzerker is also the reason you use true steel since crit chance mods affect exalted blade itself and increase its base critical chance to 24%.

again basic information.

Now why does this not work as you think with exalted blade?

Becasue you clearly have not looked into it.

Exalted bvlade is not only the waves its the blade itself as well.

Since the blade pierce and can hit multiple enemies at a time that modded 24% crit chance will have the possibility to not only trigger from the wave when you hit your first target  

if you are close enough (which you should due to dropoff) your will hit the first target with the blade itself and the wave at the same time. Further more you will hit all enemies within 40 meters that the waves goes through at 15meters per second(its speed out to 40m)

that gives you the chance if used correctly to hit more then 8 enemies directly with one swing. 

Modded correctly you wont do one swing during that time. you will have finished 4.

So to answer your question exalted blades crit chance of 15% is not bad and its worth to mod for. 

As for staticor mainsteam users will never ever test things out themselves. There is a reason DE have quite a few youtube partners and the guides of lotus. 

And no there is no way outside very long experiments done by several people in tandem and frame for frame video to find anything near the real numbers by just playing the game. 

The you have situations like the chesa kubrow eggs where the found ones didnt even have the code needed for chesas to be one of the outcomes. Only those brought via platinum did. 

Your answer to the whole chesa incident shows you have no idea what happened at all. Since you didnt even know they could not spawn from dropped eggs at all.

We found out very quickly that several archwing weapon parts didnt drop at all. DE did absolutly nothing for several months. Wasting a lot of peoples time and effor since the parts didnt even have a drop location all the while DE happily said they where in the drop tables. 

Trust and respect is earned not given freely. 

But by reading your previous posts i doubt you will understand my viewpoint either way since you have ignored basic facts even if we explained them to you over and over. 

I for one wont be wasting more of my time explaining basic min/maxing in gaming. 

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45 minutes ago, DawnFalcon said:

So - that was the *only* previous direct contact. DE have a very spotty record, and whiteknighting them looks really, really bad in context.

Well this is what I am curious about: If he was asked before to change his practises without any mentions of legality, and he refused to do it, why is a cease and desist so shocking to you?

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