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[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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11 minutes ago, Kedai said:

Well, all of this is going swell so far.

At this rate tennocon is going to turn into a press conference.

Dont worry, half of TennoCon audience dont even know who is Void_Glitch or about forum existence and read about this masquerade

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3 hours ago, Myscho said:

Dont worry, half of TennoCon audience dont even know who is Void_Glitch or about forum existence and read about this masquerade

Not to be That Guy, but I think the word you're looking for is farce.

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Soo whats the drop rate for the fomorian event?

Can we tag DE?

Edited by notfree25
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The Definition of Datamining from an ACTUAL Computer Engineer

I'll just leave this here for ya'll to stew on. 

And here's a shorter version, not from a Computer Engineer, but still covers the information about the ACTUAL definition of datamining. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB6XMEFPxA8

Kthnxbai!! <3 <3

Edited by Operative_Shift

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14 hours ago, Myscho said:

Dont worry, half of TennoCon audience dont even know who is Void_Glitch or about forum existence and read about this masquerade

You really underestimate Reddit's usage for WF, far more readers than this forum.

 

Operative_Shift - That's an attempt to try and narrow the definition in ways which don't apply. I routinely datamine private data provided to me under NDA, for instance. The reality is of course that datamining is the term routinely used for all sorts of analysis of game data no matter how gathered.


As for your view there that voice overlays, mouse macros, etc. are all hacking. - right, they cannot be safely used anymore with WF. Preach it! And keep preaching "STOP PLAYING".

Edited by DawnFalcon
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38 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

The Definition of Datamining from an ACTUAL Computer Engineer

I'll just leave this here for ya'll to stew on. 

And here's a shorter version, not from a Computer Engineer, but still covers the information about the ACTUAL definition of datamining. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB6XMEFPxA8

Kthnxbai!! <3 <3

What this person does not understand though is that there are different contexts in which different vocabulary makes statements work. For example, to a general audience, datamining is "the practice of examining large databases in order to generate new information". However, to the Warframe community, datamining is what this individual is trying to call "hacking". However, we cannot say that, because Digital Extremes' own Rebecca Ford described this individual's "hacking" as "datamining" in her own Reddit post:

"Then our unreleased quest scripts got datamined which we spoke on in this subreddit - we encouraged people not to read it and continued working on what we hoped would remain a surprise." (
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6in4t0/void_glitchs_repository_is_gone/dj7p9u0/)

Her "hacking" seems to be in reference to the Excalibur Umbra and Primed Streamline scandals, and as I said before, I was not involved in them. Let me make it clear that I do not have a full understanding regarding how to "inject" models into Warframe nor have I done it myself (since I do not know how to). I do not agree with injecting unobtainable items into video games to promote scams or controversy.

In fact, the majority of the files that were on the GitHub repository were not encrypted. They were parsed out of a file known as Packages.bin, a, while obfuscated file, was not entirely secure. It was not even encrypted or hashed. It was essentially plaintext for the information that was able to be pulled from it. Other files such as Languages.Bin, DropTables (actually an assortment of many files), or MissionDecks (actually an assortment of many files), files that were encrypted, were not "hacked" out (see how the terminology does not work?) of the game. They were extracted from the application sent to all of our computers (meaning that you could access it too, AGayGuyPlays), and a more accurate term to describe the process of making them readable would be "Reverse Engineering". Reverse Engineering is legal to perform in the United States of America (my country of residence). "Reverse engineering, also called back engineering, is the processes of extracting knowledge or design information from anything man-made and reproducing it or reproducing anything based on the extracted information. The process often involves disassembling something (a mechanical device, electronic component, computer program, or biological, chemical, or organic matter) and analyzing its components and workings in detail." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering) Here is an excerpt from this article:

"The reasons and goals for obtaining such information vary widely from everyday or socially beneficial actions, to criminal actions, depending upon the situation. Often no intellectual property rights are breached, such as when a person or business cannot recollect how something was done, or what something does, and needs to reverse engineer it to work it out for themselves. Reverse engineering is also beneficial in crime prevention, where suspected malware is reverse engineered to understand what it does, and how to detect and remove it, and to allow computers and devices to work together ("interoperate") and to allow saved files on obsolete systems to be used in newer systems."

"In the U.S., Section 103(f) of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) (17 USC § 1201 (f) - Reverse Engineering) specifically states that it is legal to reverse engineer and circumvent the protection to achieve interoperability between computer programs (such as information transfer between applications).

Interopability is "the ability of computer systems or software to exchange and make use of information" in a computing context. Hmm. Exchanging and making use of information? You mean like publishing information to GitHub so the Warframe community can make use of it and exchange it with each other?

Apologies, Rob from AGayGuyPlays, but this individual is not a lawyer. All of your tweets that talk about people being "scum" for not agreeing with you and Digital Extremes and that they need to stop being "Google Search laywers"? Totally uncalled for. (Honestly, you should be removed from the Warframe Partners program just for that.) Besides the point, one of your (now) main lines of "proof that I am the guilty party" just seems so invalid, at least to me...

 

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Void, I'd repeat that while I'm entirely on your side, it'd be better from a legal standpoint if you moved on to working on games from friendlier companies.

(Rockstar realized T2's mistake on OpenIV and fixed it. DE? Nada)

Edited by DawnFalcon
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1 hour ago, Operative_Shift said:

The Definition of Datamining from an ACTUAL Computer Engineer

I'll just leave this here for ya'll to stew on. 

And here's a shorter version, not from a Computer Engineer, but still covers the information about the ACTUAL definition of datamining. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB6XMEFPxA8

Kthnxbai!! <3 <3

whatever you want to call it, the actions of Void_Glitch and other "data miners" of providing information, without which we wouldn't have such a comprehensive wiki, vital to the game, also act as a "fact checker" for DE's Warframe. 

don't be like a certain prez slandering ppl for showing the truth.

yes there are aspects that i agree should not be leaked but i think cooperation could be a better path of achieving both transparency and data security.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

What this person does not understand though is that there are different contexts in which different vocabulary makes statements work. For example, to a general audience, datamining is "the practice of examining large databases in order to generate new information".

Lol but we're not speaking about the GENERAL audience are we? We're not even speaking about lawyers. We're talking about a computer engineer that has first hand knowledge of what datamining is vs. what hacking is. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

In fact, the majority of the files that were on the GitHub repository were not encrypted. They were parsed out of a file known as Packages.bin, a, while obfuscated file, was not entirely secure.

A... majority? So not the entirety.. which means that SOME of it was encrypted.  and you admit that the files were obfuscated which by definition means "to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible". So basically it was hidden, and you went digging for it. Because when you say things like "not entirely secure" that could mean a lot.. a persons house who's windows aren't barred could be considered "not entirely secure". 

3 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

They were extracted from the application sent to all of our computers (meaning that you could access it too, AGayGuyPlays)

Lol, well with the right tools I could also break into a house with no bars on the windows couldn't I?  

3 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

Apologies, Rob from AGayGuyPlays, but this individual is not a lawyer.

You're right, he's not. Hes a computer engineer LOL, far more qualified to speak on the subject than a laywer is. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

one of your (now) main lines of "proof that I am the guilty party" just seems so invalid, at least to me...

Lol, I think I'll stick to the expert who's not a part of the violating party (who's admitted to having ties to the hacker/s in question) to determine what's right and wrong. Regardless, it seems to me that you determined you were guilty ages ago.

So.. I mean if you feel like continuing to mislead the public by trying to advertise what you did as something it isnt.. feel free. But at the end of the day..

you never fought Activision for taking down your stuff.. so I guess we now know why lol

Edited by Operative_Shift
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2 hours ago, ..atom.. said:

whatever you want to call it, the actions of Void_Glitch and other "data miners" of providing information, without which we wouldn't have such a comprehensive wiki, vital to the game, also act as a "fact checker" for DE's Warframe. 

don't be like a certain prez slandering ppl for showing the truth.

yes there are aspects that i agree should not be leaked but i think cooperation could be a better path of achieving both transparency and data security.

I actually think about it this way.. If Void hadn't been around, the community would've been in an uproar for information straight out of the gate, and pressed DE for a resource like this A LOT sooner. Had this resource NOT been available to us, for the sake of transparency (and also Canadian guilt lol) they would've had no choice but to create the site for us themselves several years ago. 

Let's face it, both DE and the community used Void as a crutch. We should've been pressing the entire time the "datamines" were going on for an IN GAME resource, rather than having to seek things outside of game. 

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16 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

-snip-

All of this is nonsense, and you know it. These forums are a place where respect matters, and you're not showing any.

Let's play the role of sanitation engineer and try to break it down.

18 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Lol but we're not speaking about the GENERAL audience are we? We're not even speaking about lawyers. We're talking about a computer engineer that has first hand knowledge of what datamining is vs. what hacking is.

Your claimed credentials are not relevant here, I'm afraid. You begin your argument by refusing a level playing field: the other party's word is not to be trusted, but yours is? No. You're not arguing in good faith, and clearly the folks around here are too smart to give any credence to your thinking past this point.

You're not arguing in good faith, sir. This is a pattern.

21 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

A... majority? So not the entirety.. which means that SOME of it was encrypted.  and you admit that the files were obfuscated which by definition means "to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible". So basically it was hidden, and you went digging for it. Because when you say things like "not entirely secure" that could mean a lot.. a persons house who's windows aren't barred could be considered "not entirely secure".

You have just finished claiming computer engineering credentials. Would you also like to claim legal credentials before you proceed further with this line of reasoning? I'd hope for your sake that you can, because it seems that you lack a thorough understanding of how the law regarding these matters is interpreted and applied.

The level of encryption is not important. The activities in question are protected regardless of the level of obfuscation present. This is not in any way legally syllogistic with breaking into someone's home. You are drawing a fallacious comparison and appealing to emotion. If you wish to discuss this on moral ground, we could try that. On legal ground, your argument doesn't work.

26 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Lol, well with the right tools I could also break into a house with no bars on the windows couldn't I?  

This is irrelevant for the same reason as the previous bit; datamining and reverse engineering are not the same thing as breaking and entering. The law holds them to be fundamentally different, and you are misleading people with this analogy.

29 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

You're right, he's not. Hes a computer engineer LOL, far more qualified to speak on the subject than a laywer is. 

Wrong again. Unless you wish to reopen the question of the nature of the activities in question, we're only discussing the legality of those activities. That is not a question for a computer engineer. In a legal matter, a computer engineer might be called upon as an expert witness, but only for the purpose of informing a lawyer's argument.

34 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Lol, I think I'll stick to the expert who's not a part of the violating party (who's admitted to having ties to the hacker/s in question) to determine what's right and wrong. Regardless, it seems to me that you determined you were guilty ages ago.

To which expert might you be referring, I wonder? If you wish to assert that you are a computer engineering expert, you have provided no proof of that. If you wish to assert that you are a legal expert, you have ruined your chances of that by invoking baseless comparisons and assuming the guilt of another party.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything here on which to rest a credible argument.

The bottom two images you posted do nothing for you, because there is no evidence of any sort of incriminating or illegal activity in either.

I'm disappointed that this is the sort of behavior we're getting from a Warframe Partner.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

I actually think about it this way.. If Void hadn't been around, the community would've been in an uproar for information straight out of the gate, and pressed DE for a resource like this A LOT sooner. Had this resource NOT been available to us, for the sake of transparency (and also Canadian guilt lol) they would've had no choice but to create the site for us themselves several years ago. 

Let's face it, both DE and the community used Void as a crutch. We should've been pressing the entire time the "datamines" were going on for an IN GAME resource, rather than having to seek things outside of game. 

can you honestly say that with a straight face? *badumtss* .. the community have ALWAYS pressed DE for more transparency and more information about how the game works. 

this happened organically out of necessity, saving time and money for DE.

i don't even want to imagine how the wiki would look if it were solely in the hands of DE when they can barely handle patch notes. we would probably get information added with the same speed we get mag reworks. also we kinda need 3rd party verification since DE has a bad track record regarding accuracy in certain cases.

don't get me wrong the game is amazing but how it's presented to the player is severely lacking in the UI. also i'm not convinced the wealth of information wiki has can ever fit comfortably in the game's UI and i don't mind going outside the game for it.

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55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

All of this is nonsense, and you know it. These forums are a place where respect matters, and you're not showing any.

Actually I think getting information from actual experts and sharing it with interested parties is extremely respectful.

55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Your claimed credentials are not relevant here, I'm afraid.

My credentials aren't in question here. The video has a professional computer engineer speaking on the proper definition of datamining, and how information was acquired from the game, so it's actually incredibly relevant. Feel free to dismiss me, but you can't dismiss him.

55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

You have just finished claiming computer engineering credentials.

I'm not sure if you actually watched the video whatsoever.. because I NEVER claimed MY computer engineering credentials LOL. You may want to actually view the material, before you start speaking on things that you haven't even looked into.

55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Unless you wish to reopen the question of the nature of the activities in question, we're only discussing the legality of those activities

Well the fact is, using the inappropriate terminology to play google search lawyer will result in the wrong results. Using the appropriate terminology changes the factors ;)

55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

To which expert might you be referring, I wonder? If you wish to assert that you are a computer engineering expert, you have provided no proof of that.

Sounds like you didn't watch the video whatsoever.. I mean you'd think that if you were going to attempt to put together a cohesive response, I'd actually expect you to review the material, rather than just push it aside in pure ignorance.

55 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

I'm disappointed that this is the sort of behavior we're getting from a Warframe Partner.

I'm disappointed in this sort of behavior from someone in our general community. I mean you're insulting me, yet you haven't even studied the material I provided. You're disappointed in me, but you haven't actually taken the time to hear out someone with experience with actual computer engineering.

But hey, that's what this thread has turned into now right? LOL blind ignorance. No one wants to listen to someone unless they're pandering to the crowd. THAT is what's truly disappointing.

Edited by Operative_Shift
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16 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

can you honestly say that with a straight face? *badumtss* .. the community have ALWAYS pressed DE for more transparency and more information about how the game works.

LMAO! That was good one, XD I admittedly giggled :heart:

Yeah but as I had stated, both the community and DE used him as their crutch. We would've pushed them harder if we had no other outlet whatsoever, and they would've been in a rough spot because we'd be right about not having any kind of resource available to us.

18 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

this happened organically out of necessity, saving time and money for DE.

Yes, but DE needs to put the time and money into transparency. It's that same crutch mentality that let this go for as long as it did.

21 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

also we kinda need 3rd party verification since DE has a bad track record regarding accuracy in certain cases.

Not if it's pulling the information directly from the game, kind of like the way it does with the relic system now. It would just be transmitting what exists.

22 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

don't get me wrong the game is amazing but how it's presented to the player is severely lacking in the UI. also i'm not convinced the wealth of information wiki has can ever fit comfortably in the game's UI and i don't mind going outside the game for it.

Yeah I think that's why they're begining with an external site. I personally am going to encourage them to find a way to get it into the game. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, it may not be after another two reworks, but in my heart that's what I'd really want to see.

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41 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Yes, but DE needs to put the time and money into transparency.

are you trying to argue DE doesn't already have this in their game because the community picked up the slack? that stopped them putting time and money into it? you can't be serious.

imho the issue is that a line was crossed and it forced them to take a different stand for understandable reasons. it's one of the "this is why we can't have nice things" type situations. i still have hope for going a more cooperative route.

41 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Not if it's pulling the information directly from the game, kind of like the way it does with the relic system now. It would just be transmitting what exists

oh like how the UI and patch notes are always accurate and we never had cases of screwed stats that got cleared due to extensive community testing and "data mining" :clem:

Edited by ..atom..
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3 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

are you trying to argue DE doesn't already have this in their game because the community picked up the slack? that stopped them putting time and money into it? you can't be serious.

Yeah.. thats kind of the whole point isn't it? It was never in the game because a group of dataminers were already providing it for the community. DE simply used it as a reason to work on other things, like new weapons, new frames, reworks, cinematic quests, etc etc. I'm not saying that they were in the right for doing that in any way shape or form, HOWEVER if that resource DIDN'T exist for us AT ALL you damn well know that the community would've pushed for it a ton harder and DE would've been forced to respond to THAT instead of this. 

8 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:

oh like how the UI is always accurate and we never had cases of screwed stats that got cleared due to extensive community testing and "data mining"

The parts of the UI that pull DIRECTLY from the game itself didn't show screwed up stats. Manually imputed ones most likely did, however it seems that with this site, DE is making sure that it comes directly from the source that way you get the most accurate and up to date information, rather than waiting for someone to "datamine" the info. :inlove:

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Apologies for popping my head in but i have to ask.... why do you keep double posting instead of hitting the edit button if there's things you want to add?

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43 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Apologies for popping my head in but i have to ask.... why do you keep double posting instead of hitting the edit button if there's things you want to add?

The question should be: Why don't you. Why don't I.

We have been wasting time clicking that Edit button!

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On 22/06/2017 at 3:55 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

EDIT: June 27/17 @ 11:19 AM
Tenno,

The drop table web page is still being finalized, but a Balor Fomorian has appeared! If you're joining the fight to help protect our Relays, this information may be of use to you:  

Time-Sensitive PC Drop Table for the Balor Fomorian
400 ENDO                                            75%
IMPERATOR VANDAL BARREL           11%
IMPERATOR VANDAL RECEIVER        2%
IMPERATOR VANDAL BLUEPRINT     11%

Quoting Balor Fomorian drop tables for visibility. 

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5 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Quoting Balor Fomorian drop tables for visibility. 

2lnTBw7.png

Slightly nitpicky, I know, but still :P

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First things first. THANK YOU for the drop chances for the Fomorian.

 

However I have a concern:

On 6/22/2017 at 9:55 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

IMPERATOR VANDAL RECEIVER        2%

Statistically speaking a drop chance of 2% means ~50 expected tries and a variance of ~2450 (so it's give or take 49 putting the average-worst case scenario at about ~100 runs) when taking drop rates to follow a geometric probability distribution. All this limited by a 3 day period. I don't mean to be rude, I'm saying this because it's a true concern, but you know some people need sleep, and have work and school yes? 

...And then there are those who suffer from an extreme case of horribly bad luck along with that.

Is there a reason why that chance is so low?

Edited by Kurambik
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25 minutes ago, Theroxenes said:

2lnTBw7.png

Slightly nitpicky, I know, but still :P

MYSTERY REWAAAAARD.

Really though system maybe does not show decimals yet.

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9 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

MYSTERY REWAAAAARD.

Really though system maybe does not show decimals yet.

It's probably rounded to the nearest hundredth.  Doesn't change much but still.

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38 minutes ago, Theroxenes said:

2lnTBw7.png

Slightly nitpicky, I know, but still :P

1% chance of...

tenor.gif

 

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Well at least they showed the drop rates. 2% is rough but whatever, makes the sets i have sell for plenty.

Thank you for the Info @[DE]Taylor !

Edited by Skaleek

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